AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
It was the bad kind of rape though... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<b>Problems:</b><ol type='1'><li>The zombie players have to wait in corners, hide behind doors or general <b>none zombie like behavior</b> to be able to effectively kill enemies.</li><li>They are way to hard to kill, it takes way to much ammo (headshots don't matter, bug or feature?)</li><li>They are too slow and also don't vary at all (carrier = zombie with +50HP... wow...)</li><li>Anti hiding system is not working currently (bug?)</li><li>Scattering ammo troughout the level might seem a good idea at first...</li><li>More zombie/player models and skins to find your TS buddies easier <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (First release and time issue for this release ofcourse, but it should be a nice extra feature in future releases along the line)</li></ol><b>Possible solutions (number related):</b><ol type='1'><li>Upgradeable zombies with points from killing someone. If a survivor dies all zombies are allowed to upgrade 1 point into what they prefer (faster/stronger/wallwalking/leaping etc...)</li><li>Tier1 zombies should be a little bit thougher then humans and also faster (start@120%+upgrades/kills up to max200%faster, depending on "tech"tree or perhaps even introduce a starting class |fast/weak vs slow/powerhouse?), <b>not slower</b>, slow zombies only work in extreme numbers (this game doesn't have overwhelming stream of zombies).... Faster zombies will also encourage players to run at enemies instead of camperstike... I want to see zombies not campers! Basically the zombies need better ways to close the melee gap vs the ranged weapons., this would encourage none camping behavior
Add to this random ambient zombie sounds to stop camping completely, imho zombies should be moving at all times and stick together to overwhelm the enemies with speed and numbers (endgame ofcourse <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )</li><li>The carrier should actually be more powerfull (not just have a tiny amount of hp extra)</li><li>Last survivor should be found like scent of fear does in NS (should be an upgrade)</li><li>But it negates teamplay and introduces ammo hogging, especially since there is way too little of it. I think ammo dispensers (limited ammo per player) would be a better idea (along with choose your starting kit (secondary:pistol+ team limited primary|shotty/rifle/SMG|. The primary should be empty though until the teams finds corresponding dispensers)</li></ol>Upgradeable and faster zombies make for better survival gameplay as the game progresses. Currently the game usually ends up in a zombie domination due to ammo problems and the zombies being too though. Way to much ammo needed to kill them (and this ammo is close to noneexistent even, the survivors can't last more then 5 minutes of constant attack, unless they hide/camp)
The longer the game lasts the scarier the game should become due to less survivors and stronger zombies. To help keep the balance, the survivors should have objectives (like zombie master) so they actually have a goal instead of just surviving with too little ammo...
Getting an objective done will give the survivors access to more powerfull weapons and more ammo...
Zombies preventing them from completing objectives will give them an edge per kill they manage to achieve (upgrades)
See where I'm going with this, it will be an arms race.
More zombies = more ammo wastage VS more survivors/completed objectives = more zombie carnage
Now I know this is a beta, but still I want a survival horror, not a shoot the way too though thing until we run out of ammo (WHICH YOU WILL) and die. The kind game it currently is... Of course it could be I'm on a wrong train here and this train is heading towards slow paced gameplay, meh dunno, survivor horror to me should be a bullettrain crashing into a mountain of undead flesh (panic scenes:D)
The basic concept is awesome yet it fails to deliver due to some "bad choices" made in the process... I mean didn't it sound like a cool game from:
survivors vs uberzombie+converted survivor zombies. Lose more survivors will end up in and ever increasing amount (and more powerfull as extra feature) of undead flesh/brain eaters! That concept (although not very original) is pure gold...
Ah well, I'm probably preaching to the quire here, but I don't feel like creaing an acount and get flames from the ZP devs and their short fuses (From what I've seen they don't like critisims or backtalk (IRC/forum) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> this could've been a random fluke though...)
Meh, the waiting for Left 4 dead begins it seems <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
I agree, after having played some more, I can say that the whole "Oh, Here's some ammo. There is a zombie, bang bang bang, oops out of ammo I'm dead" gameplay is weak. I don't think killing a zombie should be as hard, in sheer damage it should be able to take, but the skill of the player should be the leader factor of zombie survivability instead. (the zombie's skill)
This may be harsh to the devs of ZP, but i'm not sure ZP is relavent anymore.
That's not to say that ZP isn't well done. It is. It's not quite 100% polished, but the ambience and graphics are top notch! Some of THE BEST i've seen in a 3rd party mod for HL2, BAR NONE. The soundtrack is once again excellent.
ZP1 was always a little glitchy, but the inherant abilities of the HL1 engine led to a bit more natural feel in walking/running/hit "feel". Things are a bit more plastic in HL2, and that's ok. All mods tend to be. The concept of the game is great, but I'm not sure it's even feasable to have a Zombie game where the zombies are controlled intelligently. For this, I think Zombie Master gets the nod over ZP. Having AI controlled zombies makes sense, since Zombies are by their nature dumb and instinctive.
ZP:Source needs work. Not a whole lot, but a bit. Some balance tweaks and polish on movement/attack mechanics would do worlds of good.
<!--quoteo(post=1665748:date=Dec 30 2007, 07:24 PM:name=0x00000194)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(0x00000194 @ Dec 30 2007, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may be harsh to the devs of ZP, but i'm not sure ZP is relavent anymore.
That's not to say that ZP isn't well done. It is. It's not quite 100% polished, but the ambience and graphics are top notch! Some of THE BEST i've seen in a 3rd party mod for HL2, BAR NONE. The soundtrack is once again excellent.
ZP1 was always a little glitchy, but the inherant abilities of the HL1 engine led to a bit more natural feel in walking/running/hit "feel". Things are a bit more plastic in HL2, and that's ok. All mods tend to be. The concept of the game is great, but I'm not sure it's even feasable to have a Zombie game where the zombies are controlled intelligently. For this, I think Zombie Master gets the nod over ZP. Having AI controlled zombies makes sense, since Zombies are by their nature dumb and instinctive.
ZP:Source needs work. Not a whole lot, but a bit. Some balance tweaks and polish on movement/attack mechanics would do worlds of good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree...and the other advantage with AI zombies is the fact that you can then have lots and lots of them at once which is always fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Does any one else get nasty large lag in large open spaces to the point of slideshow 1fps.. I seem to die really easily<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep and I should not have those 1 fps stuttering episodes either with my computer, which is more then able to handle source @ max... Even turning down everything to bottom of the barrel HL2 requirements didn't do anything to the stuttering in some areas.
I heard its an engine bug or something, ways to fix it for mods that had this annoyance that worked for me were (when running a makeshift PC due to mobo being fried of me computer back then <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ):
-making sure you run in fullscreen mode (ZP:S stopped messing around after I did this). Apparantly TF2/EP2 run fine in window mode, which are more demanding games then the mods I tried... Heck even Gmod with loads upon loads of spawned stuff still runs smooth.
If this does not work you're best bet is one of the following
- Try running some command lines @ launch options:<ul><li>-heapsize 512000 (for 1GbRAM) or -heapsize 1024000 for 2GbRAM (using half of your ram, might do the trick)</li><li>-dxlevel 81 or -dxlevel 80 (some mods have trouble with DX9.0 shaders on some computers somehow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )</li><li>Making sure your audigy1/2 or X-fi drivers are up2date</li></ul>
Zombies should, by their very nature, be hordes. Ten zombies for every human should be the LOW mark. When did you ever see a zombie movie where the human survivors had anywhere near the numbers the zombies have?
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1665817:date=Dec 31 2007, 12:35 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Dec 31 2007, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I refuse to download something that is 600megabytes and looks crappy for that size an install file.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given the reviews here I concur.
Two biggest issues in the reviews that have been put into consideration: 1. ZP:Source sucks 2. Nothing is truly different from ZP1
Comments
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>TLDR; warning!</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>Problems:</b><ol type='1'><li>The zombie players have to wait in corners, hide behind doors or general <b>none zombie like behavior</b> to be able to effectively kill enemies.</li><li>They are way to hard to kill, it takes way to much ammo (headshots don't matter, bug or feature?)</li><li>They are too slow and also don't vary at all (carrier = zombie with +50HP... wow...)</li><li>Anti hiding system is not working currently (bug?)</li><li>Scattering ammo troughout the level might seem a good idea at first...</li><li>More zombie/player models and skins to find your TS buddies easier <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (First release and time issue for this release ofcourse, but it should be a nice extra feature in future releases along the line)</li></ol><b>Possible solutions (number related):</b><ol type='1'><li>Upgradeable zombies with points from killing someone. If a survivor dies all zombies are allowed to upgrade 1 point into what they prefer (faster/stronger/wallwalking/leaping etc...)</li><li>Tier1 zombies should be a little bit thougher then humans and also faster (start@120%+upgrades/kills up to max200%faster, depending on "tech"tree or perhaps even introduce a starting class |fast/weak vs slow/powerhouse?), <b>not slower</b>, slow zombies only work in extreme numbers (this game doesn't have overwhelming stream of zombies).... Faster zombies will also encourage players to run at enemies instead of camperstike... I want to see zombies not campers! Basically the zombies need better ways to close the melee gap vs the ranged weapons., this would encourage none camping behavior
Add to this random ambient zombie sounds to stop camping completely, imho zombies should be moving at all times and stick together to overwhelm the enemies with speed and numbers (endgame ofcourse <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )</li><li>The carrier should actually be more powerfull (not just have a tiny amount of hp extra)</li><li>Last survivor should be found like scent of fear does in NS (should be an upgrade)</li><li>But it negates teamplay and introduces ammo hogging, especially since there is way too little of it. I think ammo dispensers (limited ammo per player) would be a better idea (along with choose your starting kit (secondary:pistol+ team limited primary|shotty/rifle/SMG|. The primary should be empty though until the teams finds corresponding dispensers)</li></ol>Upgradeable and faster zombies make for better survival gameplay as the game progresses. Currently the game usually ends up in a zombie domination due to ammo problems and the zombies being too though. Way to much ammo needed to kill them (and this ammo is close to noneexistent even, the survivors can't last more then 5 minutes of constant attack, unless they hide/camp)
The longer the game lasts the scarier the game should become due to less survivors and stronger zombies. To help keep the balance, the survivors should have objectives (like zombie master) so they actually have a goal instead of just surviving with too little ammo...
Getting an objective done will give the survivors access to more powerfull weapons and more ammo...
Zombies preventing them from completing objectives will give them an edge per kill they manage to achieve (upgrades)
See where I'm going with this, it will be an arms race.
More zombies = more ammo wastage
VS
more survivors/completed objectives = more zombie carnage
Now I know this is a beta, but still I want a survival horror, not a shoot the way too though thing until we run out of ammo (WHICH YOU WILL) and die. The kind game it currently is... Of course it could be I'm on a wrong train here and this train is heading towards slow paced gameplay, meh dunno, survivor horror to me should be a bullettrain crashing into a mountain of undead flesh (panic scenes:D)
The basic concept is awesome yet it fails to deliver due to some "bad choices" made in the process... I mean didn't it sound like a cool game from:
survivors vs uberzombie+converted survivor zombies. Lose more survivors will end up in and ever increasing amount (and more powerfull as extra feature) of undead flesh/brain eaters! That concept (although not very original) is pure gold...
Ah well, I'm probably preaching to the quire here, but I don't feel like creaing an acount and get flames from the ZP devs and their short fuses (From what I've seen they don't like critisims or backtalk (IRC/forum) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> this could've been a random fluke though...)
Meh, the waiting for Left 4 dead begins it seems <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That's not to say that ZP isn't well done. It is. It's not quite 100% polished, but the ambience and graphics are top notch! Some of THE BEST i've seen in a 3rd party mod for HL2, BAR NONE. The soundtrack is once again excellent.
ZP1 was always a little glitchy, but the inherant abilities of the HL1 engine led to a bit more natural feel in walking/running/hit "feel". Things are a bit more plastic in HL2, and that's ok. All mods tend to be. The concept of the game is great, but I'm not sure it's even feasable to have a Zombie game where the zombies are controlled intelligently. For this, I think Zombie Master gets the nod over ZP. Having AI controlled zombies makes sense, since Zombies are by their nature dumb and instinctive.
ZP:Source needs work. Not a whole lot, but a bit. Some balance tweaks and polish on movement/attack mechanics would do worlds of good.
That's not to say that ZP isn't well done. It is. It's not quite 100% polished, but the ambience and graphics are top notch! Some of THE BEST i've seen in a 3rd party mod for HL2, BAR NONE. The soundtrack is once again excellent.
ZP1 was always a little glitchy, but the inherant abilities of the HL1 engine led to a bit more natural feel in walking/running/hit "feel". Things are a bit more plastic in HL2, and that's ok. All mods tend to be. The concept of the game is great, but I'm not sure it's even feasable to have a Zombie game where the zombies are controlled intelligently. For this, I think Zombie Master gets the nod over ZP. Having AI controlled zombies makes sense, since Zombies are by their nature dumb and instinctive.
ZP:Source needs work. Not a whole lot, but a bit. Some balance tweaks and polish on movement/attack mechanics would do worlds of good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree...and the other advantage with AI zombies is the fact that you can then have lots and lots of them at once which is always fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Does any one else get nasty large lag in large open spaces to the point of slideshow 1fps.. I seem to die really easily
Does any one else get nasty large lag in large open spaces to the point of slideshow 1fps.. I seem to die really easily<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep and I should not have those 1 fps stuttering episodes either with my computer, which is more then able to handle source @ max... Even turning down everything to bottom of the barrel HL2 requirements didn't do anything to the stuttering in some areas.
I heard its an engine bug or something, ways to fix it for mods that had this annoyance that worked for me were (when running a makeshift PC due to mobo being fried of me computer back then <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ):
-making sure you run in fullscreen mode (ZP:S stopped messing around after I did this). Apparantly TF2/EP2 run fine in window mode, which are more demanding games then the mods I tried... Heck even Gmod with loads upon loads of spawned stuff still runs smooth.
If this does not work you're best bet is one of the following
- Try running some command lines @ launch options:<ul><li>-heapsize 512000 (for 1GbRAM) or -heapsize 1024000 for 2GbRAM (using half of your ram, might do the trick)</li><li>-dxlevel 81 or -dxlevel 80 (some mods have trouble with DX9.0 shaders on some computers somehow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )</li><li>Making sure your audigy1/2 or X-fi drivers are up2date</li></ul>
Given the reviews here I concur.
Two biggest issues in the reviews that have been put into consideration:
1. ZP:Source sucks
2. Nothing is truly different from ZP1