<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine bunnyhopping and alien bunnyhopping are totally different subjects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitely.
<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the marines, the backwards jump is very useful and very skill based. Even then, it only give the marine an extra few feet of distance. I'd suggest to keep something like this for marines, but remove the ability to use it more than once in a row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps a short time delay?
EDIT: To elaborate: I'm not suggesting a 'stamina' system. I hate the idea of a stamina system. In DOD for example, you can sprint for 6 seconds or so, rest for 3, then sprint again. Realistically, I don't run out of breath in 6 seconds; and once I did run out of breath, I wouldn't recover in 3 seconds. :/ So rather than running out of "stamina"; it's a strain on muscles, bones and joints. You try <b>continuously</b> jumping up and down (no stopping) on a hard, solid surface. You can't, your legs will give out. And in opposition to the 'stamina' system: long before you lose your breath, your legs will give out. My suggestion is based on that idea. You couldn't bunny hop, because realistically, you wouldn't be able to. There'd be a short delay after performing a jump (that is, you resting and re-springing your muscles) then you could jump again if you wanted to, but for that short period of time, you'd be "bound to the ground". Actually, I'm not averse to letting marines back-hop twice or even thrice in a row to get away from that tenacious skulk, and the 'rest delay' would reflect that. But bunny-hopping around? That's ridiculous. (Just in case: ) The 'rest delays' would be considerably short - something realistic. You wouldn't have to wait 5 seconds after back-hopping twice, so it shouldn't affect the fast and frenetic combat excessively - the skill would be in how you time, and when you use, your jumps and your 'runs'.
<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks, well, the skill-based movement of bunnyhopping is like no other. With it, a good skulk can be much more combat effective, which is something skulks are inherently lacking, hence their need to ambush. Skulks are very good at ambushing; straight on combat, they're at a huge disadvantage without bhop. Leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd heard the skulk's focus in NS2 was to be more of a 'scout'. Also, weren't aliens' playstyle more of an ambush-oriented playstyle; while marines were a straight-forward, forced-entry sort of playstyle? But let's say we do leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class. There's another, possibly more important, thing to address: New players. The skulk is hardly accessible (as it is now) as a 'starting class' for new players. You're suggesting we keep the skulk (mostly) as it is. So then, would you suggest we have a different starting class? What would be a good starting class? A different alien already in the game? An entirely new alien? Will NS-purists complain if you change the starting class to something other than a skulk?
Hmm, by 'class' I mean "life-form", but I don't feel like going back and changing it, though I think it's okay since other people have used the term 'class'.
bunnyhop make it easy to engage marines face to face . thats bad
skulks need to hide and scout the area and when they spot some marines they hide and wait that the marines have pass they`re position then fall they in the marines back (can work as description for a manual, no? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
the problem is that this dont work in combat :/ (and most people play only combat )
that is pretty much deadmatch whit small maps and less hiding spotts
but in classic are some rules as skulk never attack from face to face (bunny hoping allow that what is in my opinion s*** never attack alone (only attack alone when hes alone, and you are in his back)
when a fade use it can that be absulutly badass for marines see this vido <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JyUiCWCDPw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JyUiCWCDPw</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1667013:date=Jan 10 2008, 03:47 PM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Jan 10 2008, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- .. and that dont fit in the ns atmoshere
whatever youre right whit the BUNNY in the name in a other tread, i dont know where is a vido from a bunnyhoper as i see this have i think "man is that unfair for the lerk and skulk, pownd by a legastenic marine rambo" (he was alone at hte hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you referring to this? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7A55BOase4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7A55BOase4</a> Do you think just any player could pull that off? The synchronized ducking, strafing, jumping, and aiming is the result of <i>thousands</i> of hours of play. I don't see what's unfair.
Edit: jumping != bunnyhopping Also, equating skill with bunnyhopping is ######ing ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1667053:date=Jan 11 2008, 02:39 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 11 2008, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd heard the skulk's focus in NS2 was to be more of a 'scout'. Also, weren't aliens' playstyle more of an ambush-oriented playstyle; while marines were a straight-forward, forced-entry sort of playstyle? But let's say we do leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class. There's another, possibly more important, thing to address: New players. The skulk is hardly accessible (as it is now) as a 'starting class' for new players. You're suggesting we keep the skulk (mostly) as it is. So then, would you suggest we have a different starting class? What would be a good starting class? A different alien already in the game? An entirely new alien? Will NS-purists complain if you change the starting class to something other than a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, you're the last person to have replied (a few weeks ago) to <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>my thread about a new starting alien class</a></u>. Which explains in full detail exactly that.
I completely agree with Harimau in that a 'delay' of sorts should be implemented after at least 2-3 jumps. Players would therefore put alot more thought into when they would do thier mad dash backwards and place a bit more realism and possibly a little more strategic thought on a marine players part.
Also I don't know about the rest of you but to me it seem's that people bunnyhopping all the time just constantly jumping up and down seems to ruin the atmosphere for me, i don't know maybe it's the thought of a futuristic marine clad in high tech armour bouncing around the corridors just kinda takes away any immersion i had.
Strangely enough though I can imagine a few older NS1 players getting a little upset over something as small as that aspect of the game being changed, while most newer inexperienced players might not notice it gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1667560:date=Jan 15 2008, 05:36 PM:name=Janos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Janos @ Jan 15 2008, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strangely enough though I can imagine a few older NS1 players getting a little upset over something as small as that aspect of the game being changed, while most newer inexperienced players might not notice it gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Small aspect? Dodging, especially dodging via jumping (which few can do effectively), is what differentiates the good from the best. Ever wonder why aimbotters never have a huge impact in NS? Marines are so fragile that even pinpoint aim alone isn't enough to ensure survival.
You're talking about a movement system that has so much more depth than the simple left-right strafing in CS or double jumping in TF2. There comes a point where even the most dedicated players plateau in terms of aim. Movement is a skill that can <i>always</i> be improved on through experience and repetition. It would be an absolute shame to see it removed or crippled in NS2.
I have faith that NS2 will be as good if not a better overall game then NS1. Out the door we know they intend to keep all the parts of NS1 that we all enjoy. Different and unbalanced sides. Different playstyles and games. Good immersion maps and a sense of teamwork to win.
Personally I think whatever they add will only add to the game itself. I would be very intersted to see how the aliens would preform with a "hive mind" controlling them to a point. I've found the Alien team to be a lot more talkative and generally moving as a group where as the Marines have a central and perhapes sub commander directing them.
All I really hope is the game is lengthened a bit, right now most are over in about 10-15 minutes and within 2 minutes of a game most can be called over without even a fight. Personally I like the games in early NS that went for a good 30 minutes to an hour to achieve a hard fought win. I think it is all in the resources more then anything and a good example is how people generally don't like SC as an early chamber.
I will be most intersted to see how this part is played out in NS2. Right now anyone dropping SC early is generally flamed as some people are good with cloak and focus but most times not an entire team. Secondly cloaking is made irrelevent early on because as soon as marines notice it they yell SC and cloak. Most good commanders will now spam Ob's all over the map and rush Motion early to knock it's advantage down a bit.
Mostly I am really looking forward to a new engine and a graphics facelift for NS2. Having good pyshics in the game and more options for map builders should really help. If nothing else it's ganna be a great game to play no matter what.
I think there should be some way for mappers to more fully influence the length of the games played on their maps. That way you could have a variety of game-lengths, and you might join a server that has the title 'short games' etc, for the more casual gamers, and 'long games' for people who want to put in a more dedicated effort. I'm not sure how that kind of thing could be implemented though. Maybe there could be different map guidelines for different lengths of play?
Comments
Definitely.
<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the marines, the backwards jump is very useful and very skill based. Even then, it only give the marine an extra few feet of distance. I'd suggest to keep something like this for marines, but remove the ability to use it more than once in a row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps a short time delay?
EDIT: To elaborate: I'm not suggesting a 'stamina' system. I hate the idea of a stamina system. In DOD for example, you can sprint for 6 seconds or so, rest for 3, then sprint again. Realistically, I don't run out of breath in 6 seconds; and once I did run out of breath, I wouldn't recover in 3 seconds. :/
So rather than running out of "stamina"; it's a strain on muscles, bones and joints. You try <b>continuously</b> jumping up and down (no stopping) on a hard, solid surface. You can't, your legs will give out. And in opposition to the 'stamina' system: long before you lose your breath, your legs will give out.
My suggestion is based on that idea. You couldn't bunny hop, because realistically, you wouldn't be able to. There'd be a short delay after performing a jump (that is, you resting and re-springing your muscles) then you could jump again if you wanted to, but for that short period of time, you'd be "bound to the ground".
Actually, I'm not averse to letting marines back-hop twice or even thrice in a row to get away from that tenacious skulk, and the 'rest delay' would reflect that. But bunny-hopping around? That's ridiculous.
(Just in case: ) The 'rest delays' would be considerably short - something realistic. You wouldn't have to wait 5 seconds after back-hopping twice, so it shouldn't affect the fast and frenetic combat excessively - the skill would be in how you time, and when you use, your jumps and your 'runs'.
<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks, well, the skill-based movement of bunnyhopping is like no other. With it, a good skulk can be much more combat effective, which is something skulks are inherently lacking, hence their need to ambush. Skulks are very good at ambushing; straight on combat, they're at a huge disadvantage without bhop. Leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd heard the skulk's focus in NS2 was to be more of a 'scout'. Also, weren't aliens' playstyle more of an ambush-oriented playstyle; while marines were a straight-forward, forced-entry sort of playstyle?
But let's say we do leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class. There's another, possibly more important, thing to address: New players. The skulk is hardly accessible (as it is now) as a 'starting class' for new players. You're suggesting we keep the skulk (mostly) as it is. So then, would you suggest we have a different starting class? What would be a good starting class? A different alien already in the game? An entirely new alien? Will NS-purists complain if you change the starting class to something other than a skulk?
Hmm, by 'class' I mean "life-form", but I don't feel like going back and changing it, though I think it's okay since other people have used the term 'class'.
skulks need to hide and scout the area
and when they spot some marines
they hide and wait that the marines have pass they`re position
then fall they in the marines back
(can work as description for a manual, no? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
the problem is that this dont work in combat :/ (and most people play only combat )
that is pretty much deadmatch
whit small maps and less hiding spotts
but in classic are some rules as skulk
never attack from face to face (bunny hoping allow that what is in my opinion s***
never attack alone (only attack alone when hes alone, and you are in his back)
when a fade use it can that be absulutly badass for marines
see this vido <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JyUiCWCDPw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JyUiCWCDPw</a>
.. and that dont fit in the ns atmoshere
whatever
youre right whit the BUNNY in the name
in a other tread, i dont know where is a vido from a bunnyhoper
as i see this have i think "man is that unfair for the lerk and skulk, pownd by a legastenic marine rambo"
(he was alone at hte hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you referring to this?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7A55BOase4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7A55BOase4</a>
Do you think just any player could pull that off? The synchronized ducking, strafing, jumping, and aiming is the result of <i>thousands</i> of hours of play. I don't see what's unfair.
Edit: jumping != bunnyhopping
Also, equating skill with bunnyhopping is ######ing ridiculous.
But let's say we do leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class. There's another, possibly more important, thing to address: New players. The skulk is hardly accessible (as it is now) as a 'starting class' for new players. You're suggesting we keep the skulk (mostly) as it is. So then, would you suggest we have a different starting class? What would be a good starting class? A different alien already in the game? An entirely new alien? Will NS-purists complain if you change the starting class to something other than a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, you're the last person to have replied (a few weeks ago) to <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>my thread about a new starting alien class</a></u>. Which explains in full detail exactly that.
And nice run enigma.
Players would therefore put alot more thought into when they would do thier mad dash backwards and place a bit more
realism and possibly a little more strategic thought on a marine players part.
Also I don't know about the rest of you but to me it seem's that people bunnyhopping all the time just constantly jumping up and down seems to ruin the atmosphere for me, i don't know maybe it's the thought of a futuristic marine clad in high tech armour bouncing around
the corridors just kinda takes away any immersion i had.
Strangely enough though I can imagine a few older NS1 players getting a little upset over something as small as that aspect of the
game being changed, while most newer inexperienced players might not notice it gone.
game being changed, while most newer inexperienced players might not notice it gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Small aspect? Dodging, especially dodging via jumping (which few can do effectively), is what differentiates the good from the best. Ever wonder why aimbotters never have a huge impact in NS? Marines are so fragile that even pinpoint aim alone isn't enough to ensure survival.
You're talking about a movement system that has so much more depth than the simple left-right strafing in CS or double jumping in TF2. There comes a point where even the most dedicated players plateau in terms of aim. Movement is a skill that can <i>always</i> be improved on through experience and repetition. It would be an absolute shame to see it removed or crippled in NS2.
Personally I think whatever they add will only add to the game itself. I would be very intersted to see how the aliens would preform with a "hive mind" controlling them to a point. I've found the Alien team to be a lot more talkative and generally moving as a group where as the Marines have a central and perhapes sub commander directing them.
All I really hope is the game is lengthened a bit, right now most are over in about 10-15 minutes and within 2 minutes of a game most can be called over without even a fight. Personally I like the games in early NS that went for a good 30 minutes to an hour to achieve a hard fought win. I think it is all in the resources more then anything and a good example is how people generally don't like SC as an early chamber.
I will be most intersted to see how this part is played out in NS2. Right now anyone dropping SC early is generally flamed as some people are good with cloak and focus but most times not an entire team. Secondly cloaking is made irrelevent early on because as soon as marines notice it they yell SC and cloak. Most good commanders will now spam Ob's all over the map and rush Motion early to knock it's advantage down a bit.
Mostly I am really looking forward to a new engine and a graphics facelift for NS2. Having good pyshics in the game and more options for map builders should really help. If nothing else it's ganna be a great game to play no matter what.
I'm not sure how that kind of thing could be implemented though. Maybe there could be different map guidelines for different lengths of play?