Comm-Selected Tech Trees

Domining · December 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">most thought out suggestion thread ever</div>This suggestion is aimed at increasing the variety of choices the commander is faced with and increasing the uniqueness of every game played.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>- What is it/How it plays:</b></span>

At the beginning of the round, several marines (who all spawn the same distance away from the cc) run for the throne and press the use key. The winner gets in and is instantly prompted with a selection of 3 different tech trees - he will have to choose one before he can do anything else. These tech trees will alter the order of research of objects and add a few unique research items to each tree. The trees can only be selected once, by the first person to get in the chair. Think of it like selecting a race before each game like in every other RTS, except its quite subtle.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>- The options:</b></span>

<span style="color:#000080"><b>Power: (Image of a fist or a sword)</b></span>

<b>Mode of play:</b> Shotgun walk-ins
<b>Characterizing tech:</b> heavy armor; unique weapon upgrades; heavy machine guns; early shotguns

<b>Tech tree:</b>

Infantry Portal
Armory (shotguns available off the bat, only 2 armory levels)
--v--
Arms Lab (weapon & armor upgrades, makes some commander spells available)
Adv. Research Lab (specific weapon upgrades [including knife range/power]; makes some damage/defense related commander spells available)
--v--
Observatory (Arms lab, Infantry Portal are the prereq)
Phase Gates (Obs research)
Advanced Armory (Heavy Machine Gun; Grenade Launcher)
--v--
Prototype Lab (Heavy armor 12 res, Jet Pack 15 res)

<span style="color:#000080"><b>Mobility: (Image of feet)</b></span>

<b>Mode of play:</b> Denial and harassment
<b>Characterizing tech:</b> movement upgrades; jet packs; early phase gates

<b>Tech tree:</b>

Infantry Portal
Armory (shotguns available at level 2 out of 3 armory levels)
--v--
Implant Lab (Movement related research [maybe give the marines a nice little hoverboard or something along the lines of-]; movement related commander spells)
Observatory
Phase Gates (Obs research)
--v--
Upgraded Armory (Observatory is the prereq; Shotgun)
Arms Lab (Observatory, Armory are the prereq; weapon & armor upgrades; makes some commander spells available)
Advanced Armory (Heavy Machine Gun; Grenade Launcher)
--v--
Prototype Lab (Heavy armor 17 res, Jet Pack 10 res)

<span style="color:#000080"><b>Turtling: (Image of a shield)</b></span>

<b>Mode of play:</b> Sieges
<b>Characterizing tech:</b> siege turrets; electrification; bot upgrades

<b>Tech tree:</b>

Infantry Portal
Armory (shotguns available at level 2 out of 3 armory levels)
--v--
Turret Factory (Place it in your base, marines can carry turrets and place them anywhere outside of Dynamic Infestation; costs 15/20 res)
Sentry Turret (Helps marines kill aliens and hold vital areas)
Mobile Siege Turret (lol siege convoy)
Engineering Lab (TF is the prerequisite; cool turret/Mr. Zaps upgrades)
--v--
Arms Lab (TF, Armory are the prereq; weapon & armor upgrades; makes some commander spells available)
Observatory (TF is the prereq)
Upgraded Armory (TF is the prereq; Shotgun)
Phase Gates (Obs research)
Advanced Armory (Heavy Machine Gun; Grenade Launcher)
--v--
Prototype Lab (Heavy armor 17 res, Jet Pack 15 res)

Also: Mr. Zaps is built/teleported in from IPs!

Harimau · December 2007

Hmm, yeah, I like the idea of having options or a 'trade-off' kind of research system.. But I was thinking it'd be more of a 'branching' thing.. where the 'opportunity cost' is not affected by time, you get a certain tech, you forego other technologies, and you follow a different tech 'branch' or 'path'.. in order to add much greater variety to gameplay and equipment roll-outs.
I can see two problems with this system though, newbie commanders would have too many options, and wouldn't know what would be wise to select (not so much on your system, but yours does have more than the original NS).
And the other problem, where your "race-selection" system has a greater advantage (mostly, but there still seem to be many tree-specific technologies) is that, even though you might opt for a certain playing style at the beginning, you'd still have the option of getting other things from different playing styles (at a higher cost), so that you can respond to what the ever-changing situation demands.

So yeah, two main problems with our suggestions. More options is great, unless in the hands of newbie commanders who won't know which are wise selections. A trade-off system is also great, so that you don't have a team getting every-single-technology-possible, but it also limits you in terms of freedom of changing your playing style mid-game according to the demands of the situation.

Bacillus · December 2007

One of the most challenging stuff in comming is that you'll have to make the right decisions quick. I'd rather have it so that you can't really stick that much to a plan selected before the game actually starts. I think the optimal situation is a well balanced tech tree that still allows a lot of different game styles and decisions. For example making some upgrades that somehow improve rushing is fine, but you can still consider also upgrading sieges as long as you can afford it. Hopefully its a lot more complex than just siege/sg though.

As for the unique rounds, I'd actually like to see some little random things in maps. Not anything like a section sealed off, but some little stuff affecting the decision making a bit. Like a little change in routes, a slight different room layout, just something to upset the decisions slightly.

CanadianWolverine · December 2007

Personally, I would like to see limits taken off of various research, Marine and Kharaa, rather than put on. This kind of thing reminds me of when the Kharaa team in NS1 would rip into a gorge who didn't drop exactly the 'right' chamber without asking first - I think its likely that if the Commander chose a particular key root for the tech tree, you would see some derision as well, seeing as the Marines are now stuck with the decision for the rest of the game. Yes, I realize essentially Marines are stuck with the Commander choices as it stands right now too but really, I see this more like a situation that needs fixing, not adding more aggravation.

Domining · December 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 31 2007, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I can see two problems with this system though, newbie commanders would have too many options, and wouldn't know what would be wise to select (not so much on your system, but yours does have more than the original NS).</div>
New commanders only have to learn one at a time, since I don't think too many commanders would leave mid-game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>it also limits you in terms of freedom of changing your playing style mid-game according to the demands of the situation.</div>
Well too bad, you pick one playing style and you follow through. Of course Terran players can't build corsairs in Star Craft as hard as they may try, but they have other things - which aren't even close in function - but fill the same roles in the greater view.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Dec 31 2007, 02:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>One of the most challenging stuff in comming is that you'll have to make the right decisions quick. I'd rather have it so that you can't really stick that much to a plan selected before the game actually starts. I think the optimal situation is a well balanced tech tree that still allows a lot of different game styles and decisions. For example making some upgrades that somehow improve rushing is fine, but you can still consider also upgrading sieges as long as you can afford it. Hopefully its a lot more complex than just siege/sg though.</div>
The tech trees I've mentioned are only the very basic examples of what I'm talking about. Each of those tech trees would play out just like the tech tree does in Natural Selection, it'll offer many strategies and options internally and a unique set of responses to each alien action.

The uniqueness of responses is what can make this idea great. While the brute force tree would tackle fades head on, the movement tree would require the commanders to be more subtle about it. The movement tree would hurt the fade a little and then set up an ambush outside of the hive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>As for the unique rounds, I'd actually like to see some little random things in maps. Not anything like a section sealed off, but some little stuff affecting the decision making a bit. Like a little change in routes, a slight different room layout, just something to upset the decisions slightly.</div>
It'd be more fun if those 'random events' were all caused by player choices.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 31 2007, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I would like to see limits taken off of various research, Marine and Kharaa, rather than put on.</div>
The easiest counterpoint I could think of is once again, Star Craft. I've already mentioned this, but if a Protoss player wants to go marine+medic, he'd have to go out of his way to mind control a SCV. The limits are there, yet the game is absolutely unhurt and is in-fact better. You could have one mega-race which had all of the buildings and units of the 3 races, but that wouldn't be as fun to play.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>This kind of thing reminds me of when the Kharaa team in NS1 would rip into a gorge who didn't drop exactly the 'right' chamber without asking first -</div>
You're talking about skillsories obviously. Skillsories are a feature that needs to be removed from NS because they get in the way of fun gameplay. Its not the same thing at all. DCs and MCs are equally good first chambers right now, nobody would say anything if they were properly balanced from the start.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think its likely that if the Commander chose a particular key root for the tech tree, you would see some derision as well, seeing as the Marines are now stuck with the decision for the rest of the game. Yes, I realize essentially Marines are stuck with the Commander choices as it stands right now too but really, I see this more like a situation that needs fixing, not adding more aggravation.</div>
Well marines too obviously have to be given a lot of freedom within the system itself, however certain limits and perks chosen by the commander could only make this game more fun if balanced properly.

The trick to getting these trees to work is to perfectly balance the three of them. No skillsory trees!

Harimau · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Jan 1 2008, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><b>Well too bad, you pick one playing style and you follow through</b></div>
<b>and then you lose.</b>

and what the hell are skillsories?

N_3 · January 2008

you can still use a system where you can research alternative tech trees (and ultimately everything), you'll just be at a disadvantage because you have a lot of mediocre technologies from different areas rather than a single powerful technology.

pSyk0mAn · January 2008

While I like the idea of being able to choose between different "traits" as commander, I don't think it should affect the (marine) game that much.
A little bonus on res-cost of certain equipment/upgrades/buildings or maybe little buffs on damage/armor/(building-)health depending on your trait would be nice, but in order to balance this aliens need access to their complete tech-tree, if they have the time and ressources, to counter the different advantages, the marine can get (e.g. unchained chambers).

Domining · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 1 2008, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><b>and then you lose.</b>

and what the hell are skillsories?</div>
Not if that one playing style has a counter for everything, which is how it should be. I don't really see what you're arguing against, each one of those tech trees will be a complete tech tree.

skillsories = sc

locallyunscene · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 31 2007, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I would like to see limits taken off of various research, Marine and Kharaa, rather than put on. This kind of thing reminds me of when the Kharaa team in NS1 would rip into a gorge who didn't drop exactly the 'right' chamber without asking first - I think its likely that if the Commander chose a particular key root for the tech tree, you would see some derision as well, seeing as the Marines are now stuck with the decision for the rest of the game. Yes, I realize essentially Marines are stuck with the Commander choices as it stands right now too but really, I see this more like a situation that needs fixing</div>
I agree, this is exactly the kind of tech tree I don't want to see. NS becomes a "pick the correct path in the first 10 seconds or not" battle which is even worse than an HP battle. It creates more problems than solutions.

Domining · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 2 2008, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree, this is exactly the kind of tech tree I don't want to see. NS becomes a "pick the correct path in the first 10 seconds or not" battle which is even worse than an HP battle. It creates more problems than solutions.</div>
I don't know how I can simplify this any further. None of the 3 trees is the correct tree, pick the one you're the most comfortable with/had most practice with. There shouldn't be a single scenario where one tree can perform better than another overall. There are no 'weaknesses' when picking any, only different styles of play.

locallyunscene · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Jan 2 2008, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know how I can simplify this any further. None of the 3 trees is the correct tree, pick the one you're the most comfortable with/had most practice with. There shouldn't be a single scenario where one tree can perform better than another overall. There are no 'weaknesses' when picking any, only different styles of play.</div>
You gave each path unique upgrades that are not accessible from the other paths. For example, only one path has access to the TF. You say no path has a weakness, but it took years to get the chambers balanced enough where all three chambers are viable at the beginning. SC is still less viable than the other two I would say, since it has such a hard counter. I don't think increasing the similarities between the two teams here will make the marines more fun to play. I'd like the tech tree more dynamic.

Comm-Selected Tech Trees

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