ns_forgotten

Skacky

<div class="IPBDescription">My new map</div><b>BETA 2 RELEASED 14/01/2008</b>

New version is uploaded!
Grab it here: <a href="http://perso.orange.fr/temposite/ns_forgotten_b2.zip" target="_blank">Here!</a>

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns_forgotten beta 1 to beta 2 changelog:

- Fixed several exploits. (thanks Fcp!)
- Fixed collision bugs in Drill Shaft.
- Fixed collision bug in Pumping Station.
- Fixed possibility to siege Double from MS.
- Fixed a random texture bug in Steam Tunnel.
- Fixed a texture misalignment near MS.
- Fixed sinking structures in Drill Shaft.
- Fixed stuck points in many areas.
- Fixed sprites issues.
- Fixed typo in minimap.
- Fixed a strange bug with an env_particles_custom.
- Fixed ramp bugs with Onos. Ramps only cause troubles when charge+celerity is activated.
- Added more infestation near Drill Shaft and Sewer.
- Added additional lights near Sewer
- Added two func_weldable closing some vents.
- Added a missing info_location in Tram Tunnel.
- Added _2 and _3 minimap sprites.
- Removed MS vent.
- Removed Drill Shaft water.
- Moved Pumping Station to Water Regulation corridor's pipes a bit higher to prevent Onos blocking.
- Moved strange structure in Sewer a bit higher to prevent Onos blocking.
- Moved Hives a bit higher to prevent dropping issues.
- Modified lightning a bit, darker now.
- Divided water drainage speed by 2.5.
- Some minor changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

b1 links are obviously outdated now.


Hello everybody! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I've just released the first beta of my map ns_forgotten.

The map is pretty huge and has 12 res nodes actually. I learnt a lot with ns_bliss and I'm pretty sure I didn't make the same mistakes. The times MS-to-Hive is roughly the same, even if the last hive has something like 10 secondes more, but it's located in front of the MS.

<a href="http://perso.orange.fr/temposite/ns_forgotten_b1.zip" target="_blank">Download Link!</a>

So, screenie time!
(click to enlarge)

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/a/9/5/aad5e07b6bcec3690f854094336ab.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/a/9/5/aad5e07b6bcec3690f854094336abtt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/7/d/d/e01ac7999d15b9f414f9caa4d0584.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/7/d/d/e01ac7999d15b9f414f9caa4d0584tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

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<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/e/7/0/41619831d5936242f93445790b920.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/e/7/0/41619831d5936242f93445790b920tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/7/8/3/f454a6a5c9110097bb0b77a4d6f19.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/7/8/3/f454a6a5c9110097bb0b77a4d6f19tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/4/08c15c1d9d1e3fe0eabb3e2d3b70a.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/4/08c15c1d9d1e3fe0eabb3e2d3b70att.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/a/8/0/bc103164ffc02f49540fc8d62baef.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/a/8/0/bc103164ffc02f49540fc8d62baeftt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/4/e/b/974cd4a6717979ead2d9f3c8b1721.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/4/e/b/974cd4a6717979ead2d9f3c8b1721tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/e/1/f/63fa92cd284c1cb3d66743337faa1.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/e/1/f/63fa92cd284c1cb3d66743337faa1tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://pix.nofrag.com/4/d/0/952fddf4964f9f69b3120acef8231.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://pix.nofrag.com/4/d/0/952fddf4964f9f69b3120acef8231tt.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

<a href="http://perso.orange.fr/temposite/ns_forgotten_b1.zip" target="_blank">Download Link!</a>

Known bugs :
- Little collision bug inside Drill Shaft, won't be very annoying I think.
- Some issues in Sewer's underwater.
- Some issues with the elevator in Freight Elevator, don't try to egg on or put some structures, they may fall or just stuck the elevator.

Note that I'll be in a trip with my class for the next 4 days, but I'll try to stay tuned on your feedback/notes if you have some, via some of my friends, and I'll note everything on paper.

woody

nICE visuals looking forward to playing...it seems you "FORGOT" to include some stuff lol

// .res entries (31):
gfx/env/arcnup.tga
gfx/env/arcndn.tga
gfx/env/arcnlf.tga
gfx/env/arcnrt.tga
gfx/env/arcnft.tga
gfx/env/arcnbk.tga
ns.wad
ns2.wad
spleenwad.wad
co_squader.wad
ns_dementia.wad
halflife.wad
ns_ayumi.wad
ns_bliss_2.wad
ns_forgotten.wad
models/b_resource_nozzle.mdl
sound/ambience/lobeep1.wav
sprites/minimaps/ns_forgotten_b1.spr
sprites/minimaps/ns_forgotten_b1_1.spr
sprites/hera_fog.spr
sprites/ns_bast/raindrop.spr
sound/ambience/processing.wav
sprites/stmbal1.spr
sound/ambience/steamjet1.wav
sound/ambience/lowsteam.wav
sound/ns_forgotten/man_computalk2.wav
sound/ambience/b3.wav
sound/ambience/klaxon2.wav
sound/ns_forgotten/man_breather.wav
sound/ambience/computalk2.wav
sprites/ns_agora/xsmoke1.spr
sound/ambience/steamburst4.wav
ns_forgotten_b1.txt

Skacky

Most of the files are with base NS, but the map crashes because of a wad.
I'm recompiling it.

EDIT : Ok, it works now.

Droggog

ÔÔooh, activity on the mapping forum <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

I'd like to play it as well, but unfortunately no good servers are giving "custom-serious-classic maps" a chance... About feedback, well, here are some quick random comments in no particular order;

- It reminds me of ns_agora, wich is a good thing...
- The clipping bug in Drill Shaft WILL be annoying
- There is another very annoying clipping bug in Pumping Station near the RT
- Typo on the minimap: "Eletric" Annex --> Electric Annex
- The big lift is nice but i'm not sure about how it will affect gameplay. "Pros" will whine if they die, as usual. (this may actually be a good thing) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
- I'm afraid r_speeds are hitting 1k+ in some areas, that needs tweaking
- I like the wires connecting res nodes and stuff
- Lighting could use some tweaking, it's very "white-ish" atm. Maybe add some colors for extra atmosphere here and there, overlays, etc

Overall, good job, me likey <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Kouji_San

What Droggog said and my fav about the maps is the texturing. The hallway entrances especially are a nice useage of partial textures! And not to forget, your infestation technique is quite something else. The illusionaries are an awesome thing to cause confusion among the ranks of the marines. Also that one vent (@ tram tunnel) where you can drop down trough these infested brushes, a nice effect for diveboming.

Add to this loads of little nooks and crannies where aliens can hide along with the wires all over the place, this map is quite nice!


What does the welding spot do at the lift/pit of doom? Ns is being stupid and disables sound so I'm not sure if there was a sound or something... From the wire going to the elevator button, I'm assuming it repairs the button so the elevator can be used? Console said that a func_door was fired, so I'm at a total loss now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />


For estatics I'd slow down the water drainage, imho it is waaaay to fast <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (only imho)



<b>Some things I encountered:</b>

Pumping station: On one side I can climb on the rocks at the top, not so on the other side (small protruding edge?)

I encountered this in me console btw:
Error: could not load file sprites/minimaps/ns_forgotten_b1_2.sp
Error: could not load file sprites/ns_agora/xsmoke1.spr

Some minimaps are missing and cause a crash when trying to view the minimap.

A map should have the transparant maps as well even if they are not transparant. If someone is using the transparant map setting and the files are missing, the map will crash NS to desktop...

->
sprites/minimaps/ns_forgotten_b1_2.spr
sprites/minimaps/ns_forgotten_b1_3.spr

Thaldarin

It made me chuckle when I saw this thread topic, I thought it could go along the lines of "NS being a forgotten mod" for a moment there <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Screens like alright. Bit flat in places though.

Skacky

Thanks for your replies.
Yes, I love ns_agora, and I really enjoy its atmosphere.

The stuck points will be fixed, in Pumping and Drill. Optimisation needs some tweaking yeah, I'll work on it. Also, the weldable in Freight Elevator activates a door, closing a vent above.
I'll slow down the water drainage too, I find it too fast too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I'll also work on the other minimaps for sure, it will be fixed for the next version, and also the smoke sprite. And, my bad, typo will be fixed too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Thanks a lot. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Skacky

Ok, new version is uploaded!
Grab it here: <a href="http://perso.orange.fr/temposite/ns_forgotten_b2.zip" target="_blank">Here!</a>

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns_forgotten beta 1 to beta 2 changelog:

- Fixed several exploits. (thanks Fcp!)
- Fixed collision bugs in Drill Shaft.
- Fixed collision bug in Pumping Station.
- Fixed possibility to siege Double from MS.
- Fixed a random texture bug in Steam Tunnel.
- Fixed a texture misalignment near MS.
- Fixed sinking structures in Drill Shaft.
- Fixed stuck points in many areas.
- Fixed sprites issues.
- Fixed typo in minimap.
- Fixed a strange bug with an env_particles_custom.
- Fixed ramp bugs with Onos. Ramps only cause troubles when charge+celerity is activated.
- Added more infestation near Drill Shaft and Sewer.
- Added additional lights near Sewer
- Added two func_weldable closing some vents.
- Added a missing info_location in Tram Tunnel.
- Added _2 and _3 minimap sprites.
- Removed MS vent.
- Removed Drill Shaft water.
- Moved Pumping Station to Water Regulation corridor's pipes a bit higher to prevent Onos blocking.
- Moved strange structure in Sewer a bit higher to prevent Onos blocking.
- Moved Hives a bit higher to prevent dropping issues.
- Modified lightning a bit, darker now.
- Divided water drainage speed by 2.5.
- Some minor changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

StixNStonz

Maybe remove the *two* b1 download links in your first post? Just keep the first b2 download.

StixNStonz

Hows this coming along?
I still havn't given it a full run-through, only gotten about 5 minutes on a server. Whats with the MS vents that go towards double? Can marines EVER get out? And looking at the minimap you have posted here, top left hive looks to be way to easy to siege from above.

And ffs, remove the many download links to older versions in your first post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Skacky

Lol, I'm working on Beta 3 right now, I fixed a lot of old troubles and added small things here and here. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Yeah, i'll remove all the older links, don't worry. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

About the vent, right now, marines need jetpacks in order to go to double via a vent.

StixNStonz

Shacky, seriously man, why are those old b1 links STILL there <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Did a run-through of your map.

<u>The Vents</u>:
Glad to see you can't access them from MS anymore. But they still seem excessive. The two marine-access parts have ladders, but are weldable. And then, marines can only go from the one marine-access to the other one. I'd suggest either

(1) removing marine access to both by placing them higher up, or

(2) removing the weldables (since welding one would ruin the other, but only after a marine spent 5 mins looking for an exit). If you removed the weldables, hence choosing to let the marines actively use the vents, i'd suggest giving them more options. Add more ladders to the vents so marines can ninja through them in certain areas.

Careful about the vents too; it seems like theres some really long parts. This can be useful for skulks, but you might want to give them an extra exit option now and then. But the real problem is marines. If a marine gets in the vents and goes a certain way, there should be an exit. If he goes all that way (like towards MS) and there isnt an exit, he will hate you. Either block the marine's access right away (height change etc), or give marine access to the exits further along.


*********************************

<u>Nodes</u>:
12 is just too many. Right now, your layout is very much like an upside-down Veil, except that you have a node at both System Waypointing and Dome (which are Fuel Feed and Pumping Station, in your map). I highly suggest lowering this to 10 nodes, which is the general standard of NS.

My suggestions for doing so:
(1) integrate Sewage and Electric Annex into one node, somewhere in between the two
(2) remove Fuel Feed node (very close to that hive, practically creates a second Double)
(3) turning Double into a single node, removing both Fuel and Pumping, and placing a new node at Data Bank

Those suggestions intertwine, but give you a lot of options for how you can lower the nodecount of your map.

**********************************

Careful with your <u>entity count</u>. Turn on dev move (dev 1 in console), and type 'numents'. Beta 2 is at 248, which is getting high. Its still acceptable, but lower it if you can, and really try not to add any more for beta3. I noticed you have a TON of sprites throughout the map; they're a nice ambient effect, but they alone probably added about 40 runtime entities.

**********************************

<u>Tram Hive</u>. The infestation is WAY too much. There are parts where you can't see anything a foot in front of you. The skinny strand of infestation is a very nice touch, but the two thick pieces almost ruin the hive. You put the thickest parts at the floor and the thinnest at the ceiling; if inverted, this could help the problem. But i'd suggest lowering the scale on the textures (so the big blobs are that much smaller), and moving them about so that there's more visibility. A lot more visibility.

I find the infestation that cuts into the hive to be an odd effect as well. Perhaps try two or even three brushes instead of one? So that the infestation either comes around the hive like < (from two) or like \_/ (from 3)? That could solve that issue.

The <u>vent to the north of Tram</u> isn't well placed, imo. Its a cool little effect you're trying to make, the skulks running under the feet of the marines, but it doesn't work out in many places. The transparent texture covers up too much visibility, and a marine would practically never notice a skulk running underneath. This vent in particular takes way too big of a detour just for this effect; you could shorten the vent up a lot by removing this under-area, or also by moving the vent entrances. I like the Pumping entrance, but its not very useful for where it ends up. Perhaps add another exit to the siege room southeast of tram hive?

The <u>vent to the east of Tram</u> is ill-suited for marine accessibility, imo. You have the two entrances low to the ground (so marines can access them), and with ladders, but there would rarely be a situation where using these vents would be beneficial to the marines. Adventurous marines everywhere will hop into the vents, but almost certainly be very disappointed with the resulting exit. I'd suggest to either remove marine accessibility, or give more in-vent access to other parts of the map (perhaps cutting off marine access to the one close to the hive while you're at it). Your choice though.

<u>Siegeing Tram Hive.</u> From the east, you can hit the hive from the far-west side of Fuel Feeding; this is about 4 rooms away from the hive. Aliens would have a <i>very</i> difficult time defending against such a siege.

From the west side, marines would have to be in the room adjacent to the hive room, with very little cover. I'd picture this as a semi-balanced siege, but if there was a single decent fade and the hive was built (regardless of another hive being built), I couldn't foresee aliens losing this fight.

My suggestion would be to move the hive more into the center of the hive room its in. That would roughly alleviate the problems found in siegeing from both sides.


**************************************

<u>Freight elevator</u> is a pretty cool room, good job. I'm having some issues with the elevator though, and also having problems figuring out exactly what the problem is. First off, I noticed that pressing a button disables it for quite some time, and that the elevator returns to its top position. But i noticed that pressing one button does not disable the other, leaving the elevator wide open to bugs.

The issue I had was from using only the bottom button. I'm not sure how it happened, but it happened a few times, where the elevator actually stuck to the bottom area for quite some time. I just played with it a bit, and i could only recreate it by going from the top (hitting the button), to the bottom, and then hitting the button at the bottom. A player would likely do this thinking that he's sending the elevator back up. Hence, you could fix this issue by either making both buttons disable together, or by removing the auto-return feature.

****************************************

In Steam Tunnel, those side pipes would be a lot cooler if a skulk could run up behind them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. I was disappointed in a live game on Forgotten once because of this. Your choice though.

****************************************

<u>Drill Shaft Hive.</u>
Again, too heavy with the infestation. One entrance door is blocked almost 50% on the ground, which would infuriate most players on both sides. Ease up on that stuff. Also, the mixture of infestation gunk as well as infestation textures on the floors and walls creates a very highly camouflaging area for aliens. Its one thing for aliens to blend in, its quite another for them to be extremely hard to see. I'd suggest to tone that down a bit.

The <u>vent exit on the west side</u> of the hive, again, takes the longest route ever to get to where its going. Yes the skulks pass under the floor of walking marines, but the effect is not worth the player irritation. I'd suggest to either change the vents so the runtime is quicker, or simply straighten them and avoid the underpass areas.

<u>Siegeing Drill Shaft Hive</u>:
This hive seems VERY problematic to siege. Its basically impossible from the north, without being actually in the hive room. And from the West, the sieges would have to be in the hall that has direct sieg into the hive room. Furthermore, I tried placing sieges down the hallway to the left, in Steam Tunnel, but no TFs would drop. Seems its either bugged or you placed func_nobuilds. Either way, it needs to be fixed.

*****************************************

The <u>vents to the east of Electric Annex</u>. Again with the extreme route for minimal effect. This is becoming a bit of a broken record with this map <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. The vent, instead of taking 5 turns to go from the first room to Electric Annex, could instead take just one turn. Its marine-accessible from one side, but i really don't know why. I'd suggest making both entrances not marine-accessible, and doing the just-one-turn vent. Same concept, much higher efficiency, but you lose the visual effect that noone would ever have seen anyways.

But, if you're really set on keeping that visual effect (skulks running under marines), maybe you can highlight it somehow. Perhaps putting a bright texture under the skulks feet. It would likely brighten the marines as well (which could be bad), but at least it would make the skulk underneath far more visible. I'd suggest against it though.

*******************************************

<u>Sewer Hive</u>.
Again. PLEASE cut down the infestation. There is so much that even playing alone, its annoying me. I couldn't imagine how irritated i'd be as either side actually having to fight in that. Noone likes to be blinded.

The water outside the hive might be a bit much too. Its just a tad too long for either side to be able to use it to their advantage; it would basically become a 'no mans land' in a normal game.

The weldable seems to take a very long time. Given what it does, I guess thats ok, but I'd consider revising this whole area. Without welding, theres no way marines can siege whatsoever from the south, and they cant even get a phasegate anywhere nearby.

And then, when marines DO weld, it becomes too easy for them. You can fit four sieges to hit the hive. Or, you can place sieges down in that turbine room, and aliens would be completely screwed. Also, the turbines seem a bit heavy on the damage; one just nicks a marines head even slightly and hes dead.

Furthermore, this hive can be sieged from right beside Pumping Station Node, which is <i>DEFINITELY</i> too far. This whole area will likely need to be reworked, or the hive moved, or the entrances to the hive moved.

*****************************

The runtime to the middle hive is very high. At best its 40 seconds, which is the same as the worst middle hive runtime for the official maps (Fusion on Tanith). The other main route clocked 50 seconds. Drill hive has a fine runtime, and Sewer's was a bit higher than normal.

******************************



Overview:

-Too many nodes, try to drop at least one, if not 2
-The siege areas are in very rough shape and need a lot of fixing
-the vents need to be made more efficient, and more consideration needs to be put into marine accessibility and their experiences (which would all be negative right now)
-the infestation in the hives needs to be toned down significantly

You have a great map, but it has a few pretty serious problems. If you can fix up these issues, you'd have a stellar map on your hands. Your brushwork and use of effects has come a long way, especially your proportions (ns_bliss was notorious for over-sized rooms <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). Keep up the work and lets get this map into the map pack!

-Stix

commofdoom

My biggest problem is that the vents are super long. Takes forever to get anywhere. The idea of vents going underneath grates is novel too but I don't think it's worth the r_speeds, the confusion, or the delay. My suggestion is just to shorten and simplify all of them.

As for everything else I'm not entirely sure. I mean marines can easily expect to have 5 rts which means they have no excuse for losing any round. Which means the hard to siege or shoot down hives still aren't an excuse.

Although I will say most marines won't play maps that aren't full-bright with aliens spawning down long hallways.

I would still like to see you fix bliss too.