Micro and Macro
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
I'd like to start a discussion on the very small and very large elements of NS that I enjoy. If you like, feel free to add to it.
Myself, I enjoy the fact that while bhopping, I have the ability to control how fast I go based on how much practice and focus I allocate to the turns. Contrast this with any of the new FPS's where bhop was removed (for good reason) and <u>no</u> replacement was implemented, let alone one which allowed for the challenge and dynamism of airspeed control.
I also like the mix of ranged attacks that were implemented, some require prediction while some are merely point-and-click. The AE DoT systems like Spore and Umbra are groundbreaking for an FPS, and the speed at which the point and click elements must be used makes them interesting, if not duller than the movement systems which are used to counter them. Occasionally I'll imagine playing CS while I'm in YO|Clan or another Classic server (except for BAD, which I was banned from for killing a lerk with 5 shells), and I'll pull out a scripted pistol or spit someone to death with suppression fire in CAT, and realize "This is truly a better game. I don't want to play CS. It's too repetitive and boring."
I love the way aliens (and jetpacks) feel like a virtual roller coaster. Heck even marines have some of this due to the elements mentioned in my first paragraph. From leap to blink and <i>definitely</i> the best system from the lerk (so intuitive and simple, but with an OK skill cap!) the game feels very fast-paced and <i>engaging</i>. Here I'm reminded of too many source games to name, where the "boost" feature feels like high gear in a honda, rather than NS's offering of a true thrill ride, or may simply not exist at all.
On the macro level, the mere <b>size</b> of the maps is astounding, but that's not all it is. The environments almost subsume the players, interacting closely with the entities, making the game, and the very walls themselves almost feel alive. This is probably the best unique feature NS has, and the only thing I can relate it to in other games might be systems like Dystopia, where sure, there are objectives, but every objective feels the same. There's no sense of atmospheric pacing, there's only "get to the next point. get to the next point." Unlike NS, this gets tiresome, fast.
On aliens, the sense of being under the watchful eye of an alien being, by alien I don't mean a frontiersman, I mean that RTS players and FPS players have key differences in their playstyles, and to be playing under "big brother" is a powerful atmospheric experience, especially because big brother can make direct changes to the map. This adds to the point made in the previous paragraph. And even though they're generally bad, the constant possibility of static defenses multiplies these elements exponentially.
I guess my final entry here will be that I love how spawn points "move" in the map, whether it be just from a hive completion, or a full relocate to System Waypointing. Elements like this have my NS experience feeling more like a river than a rock. While CS and other games of its simple nature have a sturdy fanbase, NS's more daring approach to game design ends its players up never stepping into quite the same game twice, and this, in my opinion, is perhaps its greatest strength.
Myself, I enjoy the fact that while bhopping, I have the ability to control how fast I go based on how much practice and focus I allocate to the turns. Contrast this with any of the new FPS's where bhop was removed (for good reason) and <u>no</u> replacement was implemented, let alone one which allowed for the challenge and dynamism of airspeed control.
I also like the mix of ranged attacks that were implemented, some require prediction while some are merely point-and-click. The AE DoT systems like Spore and Umbra are groundbreaking for an FPS, and the speed at which the point and click elements must be used makes them interesting, if not duller than the movement systems which are used to counter them. Occasionally I'll imagine playing CS while I'm in YO|Clan or another Classic server (except for BAD, which I was banned from for killing a lerk with 5 shells), and I'll pull out a scripted pistol or spit someone to death with suppression fire in CAT, and realize "This is truly a better game. I don't want to play CS. It's too repetitive and boring."
I love the way aliens (and jetpacks) feel like a virtual roller coaster. Heck even marines have some of this due to the elements mentioned in my first paragraph. From leap to blink and <i>definitely</i> the best system from the lerk (so intuitive and simple, but with an OK skill cap!) the game feels very fast-paced and <i>engaging</i>. Here I'm reminded of too many source games to name, where the "boost" feature feels like high gear in a honda, rather than NS's offering of a true thrill ride, or may simply not exist at all.
On the macro level, the mere <b>size</b> of the maps is astounding, but that's not all it is. The environments almost subsume the players, interacting closely with the entities, making the game, and the very walls themselves almost feel alive. This is probably the best unique feature NS has, and the only thing I can relate it to in other games might be systems like Dystopia, where sure, there are objectives, but every objective feels the same. There's no sense of atmospheric pacing, there's only "get to the next point. get to the next point." Unlike NS, this gets tiresome, fast.
On aliens, the sense of being under the watchful eye of an alien being, by alien I don't mean a frontiersman, I mean that RTS players and FPS players have key differences in their playstyles, and to be playing under "big brother" is a powerful atmospheric experience, especially because big brother can make direct changes to the map. This adds to the point made in the previous paragraph. And even though they're generally bad, the constant possibility of static defenses multiplies these elements exponentially.
I guess my final entry here will be that I love how spawn points "move" in the map, whether it be just from a hive completion, or a full relocate to System Waypointing. Elements like this have my NS experience feeling more like a river than a rock. While CS and other games of its simple nature have a sturdy fanbase, NS's more daring approach to game design ends its players up never stepping into quite the same game twice, and this, in my opinion, is perhaps its greatest strength.
Comments
I hope that improves in NS2. All indicators seem to point to that is exactly what will happen.
Could you imagine watching Aliens 2 and when the Sarge shouts 'gogogo' , all the marines start bouncing out the APC to the door 'Hudson! Crack the door'...and when its open start bouncing about the outpost, it would be WTF, and this ###### is corny as hell <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Rather have a stamina limited rush button, this still allows for a tactical boost of speed and looks more atmospheric.
I personally enjoyed the slower paced methodical matches , where the Marines would advance and hold and slowly push the Aliens back ... block 'em in and finally annihilate 'em in thier hives as compared to the blitz shotgun rush.
It's a fair point, but remember that NS isn't a movie. If you try to make a movie out of a game, you just frustrate the players with determinism. Maybe that's not what you're doing, but that's the gist I got out of your post?
<!--quoteo(post=1666915:date=Jan 9 2008, 02:23 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ASnogarD @ Jan 9 2008, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather have a stamina limited rush button, this still allows for a tactical boost of speed and looks more atmospheric.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a question, but I have such animosity toward the suggestion you made that it'll probably come off arrogant, so I'm sorry for that.
Where is the skill in this method? You are suggesting taking a system that lets players allocate virtually any amount of focus and practice to master, and replacing it with a Win Button.
Wheres the actual skill in bhopping ? You just need to practise the move till its 2nd nature then its easy, no real skill just need to invest time. The skill in a game like NS is from working with your team members, utilising the enviroment, reacting to the situations presented.
BUT... bhopping arguments are endless, skill or not it doesnt <b>look</b> right to see a armored force of marines bouncing about shooting at you, it makes more sense for Aliens to use erratic movement.
A game is not a movie , true but there is certain parallels involved. The biggest difference is one is interactive and the other is not.
Lets imagine that Flayra made NS 1 with one team consisting of Mary Poppins clones and the other team a bunch of Looney Toons, the players still had the guns and the abilities from the current NS 1...just the team skins where Mary Poppins and Looney Toons.. would the game been as popular as it was ? I highly doubt it, many players enjoy the atmosphere in NS. They enjoy the thrill of either hunting the marines as deadly alien species or clearing out a alien infestation as a heavily armed and highly trained marine, to fully appreciate the atmosphere the player must be fully immersed in the environment.
Well least thats what I believe anyways, I enjoyed the game as a immersive thrill.
The suggested sprint feature with a limited stamina bar does present a neat compromise, a burst of speed to run away from the Onos... but not as awkward looking as bouncing about... the skill is in deciding when to use it.
So just spending all that time to learn how to aim and master tracking skulks/lerks/etc isn't skill huh? You clearly haven't tried bhopping+leaping to move around the map and attack marines, or bhop as a fade between blinks to conserve energy while simultaneously wiping marines, metaing mid blink or whille bhopping to build energy, etc. It's a massive skill-based ability, don't downplay it just because "it breaks your immersion." Doing things that seriously affect gameplay just for atmosphere = dumb.
I'm pretty sure he was talking about <i>Marines</i> hopping around like lunatics, rather than <i>Aliens</i>.
And I think I agree with him.
I think that marines, rather than being 'acrobatic' in nature (<i>The Specialists</i>?), are more likely to be trained in something like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Quarters_Battle" target="_blank">Close Quarters Battle</a>, and perhaps even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatives" target="_blank">Combatives</a> (though rather than extensive unarmed hand-to-hand combat which would be useless against carapace, hand-to-hand combat using lethal weapons like knives and such).
EDIT: To clarify, I'm discussing the idea that the marines of the future are using hip-fired or hand-held weapons, which are more suitable for CQB; as opposed to shoulder-fired, precisely-aimed weapons. I think that in the future, hip-fired weapons would probably become more viable (for CQB) as (on your HUD) you'd have a crosshair that would assist with aiming.
It <i>is</i> the future..
It seems more viable than a 'Stamina bar'.\
But TBH, bhopping makes NS complete.. NS2 without Bhop would be poo.
<!--quoteo(post=1667053:date=Jan 11 2008, 04:39 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 11 2008, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[removed]
<!--quoteo(post=1667036:date=Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2008, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the marines, the backwards jump is very useful and very skill based. Even then, it only give the marine an extra few feet of distance. I'd suggest to keep something like this for marines, but remove the ability to use it more than once in a row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps a short time delay?
EDIT: To elaborate: I'm not suggesting a 'stamina' system. I hate the idea of a stamina system. In DOD for example, you can sprint for 6 seconds or so, rest for 3, then sprint again. Realistically, I don't run out of breath in 6 seconds; and once I did run out of breath, I wouldn't recover in 3 seconds. :/
So rather than running out of "stamina"; it's a strain on muscles, bones and joints. You try <b>continuously</b> jumping up and down (no stopping) on a hard, solid surface. You can't, your legs will give out. And in opposition to the 'stamina' system: long before you lose your breath, your legs will give out.
My suggestion is based on that idea. You couldn't bunny hop, because realistically, you wouldn't be able to. There'd be a short delay after performing a jump (that is, you resting and re-springing your muscles) then you could jump again if you wanted to, but for that short period of time, you'd be "bound to the ground".
Actually, I'm not averse to letting marines back-hop twice or even thrice in a row to get away from that tenacious skulk, and the 'rest delay' would reflect that. But bunny-hopping around? That's ridiculous.
(Just in case: ) The 'rest delays' would be considerably short - something realistic. You wouldn't have to wait 5 seconds after back-hopping twice, so it shouldn't affect the fast and frenetic combat excessively - the skill would be in how you time, and when you use, your jumps and your 'runs'.
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Also, edited my previous post in this thread.
Clearly you didnt read past the 1st paragraph, the one you quoted... if you did you would seen this paragraph :
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ASnogarD)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BUT... bhopping arguments are endless, skill or not it doesnt look right to see a armored force of marines bouncing about shooting at you, it makes more sense for Aliens to use erratic movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean , be honest..doesnt it <b>look </b>naff when a squad of marines start bouncing about like mad on thier way to an waypoint, or when they encounter the enemy ?
But , lets not derail the topic and turn it into another bhop argument, I only mentioned it because I agree with the OP's sentiments except in regards to bhopping.
I used to enjoy the atmosphere the game generated, example ..last marine in the squad I would often cover the rear ... if we was rushing to secure a point I would even stay behind and keep the skulks busy, last stand like, as a Alien I would be hidden and waiting, watching the marines walk under my hiding place before dashing in and causing all sort of mayhem with hit and run tactics (especially fun on FF on servers).
I used to like the difference in gameplay between the two sides, before I got tired of one teams playstyle I was often on the other team next round..so I never really got bored as the two styles varied a lot.
Haven't you learned yet that on this forum that <b>every</b> thread is a bhop thread? Even the MSPaint thread is bhop thread.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(radix)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where is the skill in this method? You are suggesting taking a system that lets players allocate virtually any amount of focus and practice to master, and replacing it with a Win Button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not for a stamina bar, but this is an unfair statement. Bhop is not the be-all-end-all of NS. It takes skill to master but a player(especially a marine player) can be good at combat(I use this word in the general sense, not the gameplay mode NS: Combat) and aircontrol without it. The series of counters and tactics are still there, it's just easier for a newbie to pull them off. So, no it's not a win button and could add actually add depth to the combat of NS(WRT combat theory. It reduces total depth).
That said NS still needs "skill moves" that can be practiced beyond combat tactics. Bhop fills this role well in NS1. In this respect a stamina bar is too simplistic; beyond combat theory there's no way to improve at "stamina bar".
Finally, I agree with the OP. The atmosphere/uniqueness draws players to NS, the depth keeps them there.
That's hardly accurate.
<!--quoteo(post=1667102:date=Jan 12 2008, 01:12 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 12 2008, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said NS still needs "skill moves" that can be practiced beyond combat tactics. Bhop fills this role well in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And <b>lucky us</b>, that's what Aliens are for.
<!--quoteo(post=1667102:date=Jan 12 2008, 01:12 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 12 2008, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In this respect a stamina bar is too simplistic; beyond combat theory there's no way to improve at "stamina bar".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, a "stamina" bar is too simplistic and hardly realistic. Bunny-hopping is just as, if not more, unrealistic. (Just to be sure, I'm talking strictly about Marines here.)