Keep Air Speed
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Even if you absolutely must remove B-Hop</div>This post is in response to several dev comments which seem to tend toward removing bunny hopping from NS2 (or rather, not implementing it).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Definition: Bunny Hopping<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Repeatedly</b> strafing in the air while jumping so as to generate an increase in speed through the exploitation of the engine's discrepancy between ground speed and air speed.
The primary arguments against bunny hop, and the dev team's reasons for its removal are either totally arbitrary or fall into (a) that bunny hopping depletes atmosphere, (b) that it is unintuitive and that it therefore does not lend itself to new players which comprise a major demographic, and that keeping it would throttle the game's influx of new players, or © that it leverages engine exploits, which is <b><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->BAD<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>.
And these (especially b) are arguable points. So if you must remove bunny hop for one of these reasons, please consider the following:
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Air Speed Control (ASC) does not fall into any of these categories:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
What bunny hop depletes in atmosphere is completely unnoticeable to the untrained eye when considering ASC itself (without the repeated iteration of sideways jumps that garners the term "bunny hop").
Second, <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->airspeed control is <u>completely unnecessary</u> for new players to enjoy the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, while it is <u>totally peerless</u> when it comes to competitive skills. I can't imagine a deep, skill-oriented version of NS that dropped ASC. It would be a total ######ization of the game.
Third, and finally, I can't really make an argument against "it's bad", other than to ask "Why?" Some people believe that it's bad to let women wear t-shirts. I can't really argue against that either. The point is, ASC is objectively beneficial to the game if you consider all aspects it effects, and I very much hope the dev team will at least consider implementing it (in at least as much force as it currently stands), even if bunny hop is to be a thing of the past.
Thanks.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Definition: Bunny Hopping<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Repeatedly</b> strafing in the air while jumping so as to generate an increase in speed through the exploitation of the engine's discrepancy between ground speed and air speed.
The primary arguments against bunny hop, and the dev team's reasons for its removal are either totally arbitrary or fall into (a) that bunny hopping depletes atmosphere, (b) that it is unintuitive and that it therefore does not lend itself to new players which comprise a major demographic, and that keeping it would throttle the game's influx of new players, or © that it leverages engine exploits, which is <b><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->BAD<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>.
And these (especially b) are arguable points. So if you must remove bunny hop for one of these reasons, please consider the following:
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Air Speed Control (ASC) does not fall into any of these categories:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
What bunny hop depletes in atmosphere is completely unnoticeable to the untrained eye when considering ASC itself (without the repeated iteration of sideways jumps that garners the term "bunny hop").
Second, <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->airspeed control is <u>completely unnecessary</u> for new players to enjoy the game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, while it is <u>totally peerless</u> when it comes to competitive skills. I can't imagine a deep, skill-oriented version of NS that dropped ASC. It would be a total ######ization of the game.
Third, and finally, I can't really make an argument against "it's bad", other than to ask "Why?" Some people believe that it's bad to let women wear t-shirts. I can't really argue against that either. The point is, ASC is objectively beneficial to the game if you consider all aspects it effects, and I very much hope the dev team will at least consider implementing it (in at least as much force as it currently stands), even if bunny hop is to be a thing of the past.
Thanks.
Comments
A) Where I get to turn my view / aim / character's body when I jump?
B) Use jump to speed up or slow down? Er, like control my vector (direction) to where I land?
If it is (A) I would whole heartedly agree on keeping it. If it is (B), unless there is a propulsion system in use, such as what a astronaut might use for, I think its called, VTOL, so basicly the jet pack ... or when you are falling, say, a kind of sky diving, like a flying squirel, or the use of glider or parachute ... I'm totally rambling, but I hope you get the point, I just don't understand how jumping should equal speed. Hmm, perhaps if you grease the bottom of your boots or have some other way to negate friction...
Air Speed Control (A) or (B) has its places, within reason, IMHO. Heck, I wouldn't even mind bunny hop so much if the animation was of a human doing say, flips or something else that looked kinda cool, again, within reasonable (as in not infinite) allowances.
Edit: Oh, I know maybe how you could get a speed up from jumping! Or should I say falling... Well, if as a marine you use a break fall, like a tuck and roll, that could give you a bit of speed momentarily, from the falling that is and not coming to a dead stop. Oh, well, I guess that also depends on what the gravity is like at the time too, seeing as we are in space, that can possibly change.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Air Speed Control<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
A process whereby a player can combine mouse movements and <b>strafing</b> while in the air to increase their avatar's speed ingame. Usually occurs in Quake 3 or Half Life based games due to an engine quirk.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Note that the system would be skillfully pointless if you could just push forward or right and make your character move in the air.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The subtlety comes from the combination of mouse and key choices made and <b>especially from the fact that it interferes with aiming by virtue of its core mechanics</b> so the player must decide whether to aim or move, or some optimal combination of the two.
<!--quoteo(post=1667122:date=Jan 11 2008, 03:33 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 11 2008, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't understand how jumping should equal speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing I can say is that "Because it's a game, and games are supposed to be fun." The system works on every level you throw at it. Sacrificing a peerless competitive system because it doesn't make perfect sense in the backstory would be like arguing for the removal of welding other players because "you don't have to hit them in specific places, and that doesn't make sense". Games are games. Not everything has to make sense, as long as it's built in such a way that facilitates the enjoyment of the players, and one of the elements I enjoy above nearly anything else is depth and the potential for mastery. And I believe I'm not alone in this.
PS: Beyond that I really have no way of answering you, Wolverine. Anyone who has seen the deeper levels of NS understands what I'm saying, and you don't seem to fall into that category unfortunately. If you'd like to have a look, consider ensl, ansl, or the link in my sig. Sorry if this offended you.
EDIT: @locallyunscene: They are easily separated. The fact that marines can rail hop is an exception and, IIRC, requires additional code. Consider the logic involved "If I just landed, stop me from gaining speed in the air for the next x milliseconds". It's actually more difficult to say "if i just landed and I'm - ok check my height - x unit higher than i was when i landed the last time - check var - then let me jump again". I may have this code backwards though, perhaps Max or someone more competent can clear this up. Bottomline is that, yes, they are totally possible to separate.
I was just making sure my definition of air speed control is the same as yours, I am seeking as little confusion as possible.
If I could no longer aim when I jump (A), that would suck. If I could no longer control where I land when I jump (B), that would suck.
But if I always travel the same speed through the air when I was when I running / walking when I jump, then I would be fine with that.
As I understand how it works in practice now, it is possible to time it such as you strafe jump to vector your strafe in the direction you want and then negate what usually happens when you land, slowing back down to the normal run speed. I'm not entirely sure of the code involved though.
The issue with it has less than it takes skill to do it, that's cool, it more a case of how it strains credulity, aka pokes holes in ones suspension of disbelief. If I remember this stuff correctly, it has something to do with the uncanny valley, a reference to a study of people's reactions to human looking pictures, which has also had ties to the creation of androids that don't creep people out but rather that are found to be "friendly" looking. I'm probably the wrong person to explain it, so I hope I find a good link to the study where you can read it yourself, I just remember this curve that went from really fake human pictures to really high definition human pictures or something like that. I hope someone else remembers what it is...
Oh here we go! Hehe, there is wiki on everything it seems like these days:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley" target="_blank">Uncanny Valley</a>
This should help a better understanding why bunny hopping doesn't bug people's immersion of the Kharaa, but it does bug people to see humans bunny hop. Hey, I didn't make people's brains work that way, but maybe you will better understand why I just suggest some human movement animations to go with it and *bingo*, I bet the b-hop, other than perhaps the unintuitive control scheme for the movement, would have a lot fewer complaints about it.
The untrained eye? It makes sense that the trained eyes are the ones that NOTICE IT. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
And stating that it takes away from the atmosphere in my <b>opinion</b> is true. I [being a recently discharged military member myself, and one who has deployed more then once] can say truthfully, that in no situation, did I ever see someone bunnyhop. No marine I have ever been around, no Navy member who was aboard the Kitty Hawk with me, and no civilian contractor who worked in Iraq ever bunny hopped. That goes for peace time and in war fronts. I can't say in my 8 years of experience as a Corpsman, did I ever say a marine or army reject do a "bunnyhop," for any reason. Even when we were drunk doing stupid stuff in the barraks, I never saw it. *shrug*
It is commendable I suppose that you are willing to spend time to write out a statement of why bunnyhopping should stay, it's your opinion. Just like mine. An opinion. Not a fact. [See above]
The actual problem I have with "bunny hopping" is not that it makes the marines harder to kill, that's just something the people who constantly use the exploit say as a defensive remark. The game could easily be designed to use other methods that make them harder to kill, like speeding up the movement or something, so "bunny hopping" isn't it. It is the fact that even though I know I am playing a game. Even though I know I am not really a futuristic space marine, or an alien gorge who spits at people in real life, I try to immerse myself in the game to make it more enjoyable. Yet every single time someone is being chased and starts doing jumping jacks, backwards, while shooting, sideways, and reloading... while hopping up and down and up and down and up and down, it reminds me: I am playing a video game. It's that simple. It ruins the experience for me. Its like playing Diablo, then out of nowhere someone starts using a wallhack so they can skip a part and get the good kills. Arg!
If were going to allow bunny hopping, then whynot allow grenade-boost jumping or any of the other five billion shooter exploits? Because it doesn't fit. "Science fiction" stretches the imagination, but "bunny hopping" to me stretches logic and reality, both at the same time.
I agree 1000% whit you
but what is airspeedcontrol?
i do only know aircontrol and that is a good thing
what you have say is bunnyhop for me
but when you dont need to jump is all fine
you make a air-speed-control-strafe-in-the-air right and when you land you make a second air-speed-control-strafe-in-the-air left
that is bunnyhop
or?
if you mean something others, sorry that i dont understand
You were doing fine, why did you feel the need to step down into the realm of ridiculous statements?
Like darktimes says, I also am wonder what Air Speed Control is, as opposed to Air Control, which he and I understand. Would you be willing to help clear up what ASC is the definition of?