The Kharaa Hivemind

locallyunscene

<div class="IPBDescription">the hidden kharaa commander</div>Why does the alien commander have to be a person? Could it be a simple AI; something that provides objectives and non-intuitive observations based on Hive-sight? Could it give each player a better global situational awareness?
<!--quoteo(post=1662118:date=Nov 27 2007, 08:51 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 27 2007, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you join the kharaa side the first few times it's really difficult to figure out what to do. A simple objective list would help a lot for new players.

Static objectives would be:
Build Resource Towers
Build 3 ability chambers
build second hive
build 3 new ability chambers
build third hive
build 3 new ability chambers
Kill Marines: <Current count>
Kill Marine rts: <Current count>
Kill Marine structures: <Current count>

Dynamic objectives would be a little different and only appear when applicable.
Kill parasited/detected marines in/near <hive>
Defend rt at <location(s)>
Spread DI to rooms<locations><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664242:date=Dec 16 2007, 01:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 16 2007, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't want a single commander-like role for the aliens, top-down or no. A more communal, suggestive system like every alien player being able to "recommend" locations to go or build at seems way more like their style. Although it'd be more of a demand than a suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Picture a simple 'hivemind' that gives each player objectives and observations based on hivesight. Some examples:

A fade is in MS hitting the IPs and the commander beacons. Since the fade is within hearing range of the obs a "Beacon Witnessed/Detected" message is sent to kharaa players screens.

A marine steps into range of a sensory chamber near a hive, the hivemind gives an objective of "eliminate the intruder in <hive location>" to the closest combat classes.

Let's say an AI is too complicated/ too expensive to develop. What about a series of commands/suggestions that are able to be sent to other players in the form of text/sound/icon? Let each player be a part of the hivemind. Spam of commands could be prevented through cooldowns or muting.

A combination of player and hive generated objectives?

Just something that's been kicking around in my head and I'd like to see discussed/expanded upon.

Moving_Target0

I like this idea quite a bit. If the alien commander doesn't come into existence, this would certainly be the replacement that I'd favor.

Kouji_San

This does not really need to be an AI, it could be done with simple triggers like it currently is done.

Resource tower under attack will show up on hud as to which one is under attack. I mean this sounds more like an expansion of the current triggers. --> resource tower under attack (audio/hud display) and gives closest combat types a waypoint.


I do like it though, just imaging this on the alien side

*Resource tower under attack*
>select closest attack units<
*eliminate the intruders* or *defend our resource tower*
>threat eliminated, select gorge<
*heal our resource tower*

Could be applied to players on low health or under attack as well. It will make the game more immersive as well for the aliens to have a hive mind commanding like this... Although it should not get to spammy as people don't want it to interfear with their voicecom/TS/Vent.

locallyunscene

I don't think this would work well if the kharaa commander needed to have the same res system as the marines(one large pool). It would be difficult for an AI to know whether movement chambers or offensive chambers were needed at any given moment. Since an AI cannot make these decisions effectively then it would be an incompetent "commander". This command structure depends on a similar kharaa res system to the current system.

Alternatively, having players make enforceable decisions about what should be dropped is time consuming, and there might as well be a dedicated commander.

Assuming a similar res system, the objectives wouldn't be enforceable, just suggestions and a way to improve hivesight/situational awareness of the team.

Moving_Target0

Or, perhaps there could be a way that you could send a 'request' to the hivemind by pressing a button for certain chambers to be built at your location. For instance, if you need some DCs and OCs to help in your fight against an enemy base, you would send in your request. All gorges would get that request in their hivesight, along with a notification.

Bacillus

For the early game planning I'd prefer a short pre-game warmup where you can tag yourself for 'rtfade' '3x dc' or some other basic build. Or use the mp_tournamentmode setup and modify it for a public play so that for example only server trustees could type the ready. That way you could ensure everyone knows their role and understands how its done. With some patient trustees people could explain newbies all the stuff necessary before the round actually starts. For late game some newbie information could be useful, but AI on a ns level game feels totally wrong. Its people playing, you shouldn't have to use the AI to tell people what to do.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1668448:date=Jan 26 2008, 02:28 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jan 26 2008, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For late game some newbie information could be useful, but AI on a ns level game feels totally wrong. Its people playing, you shouldn't have to use the AI to tell people what to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was tying to clarify in my subsequent posts. I use AI in a very weak sense, Kouji_san has a pretty good example of it. The AI would be telling you what's going on and maybe make suggestions in the form of objectives if inferences can be made(ie: kill the marine in the hive). Anything that requires actual player decisions would have to have it's own system.

Harimau

Hmm, but the main reason for having an alien commander in the first place, was to unify the resource model. So does this idea comply with that? If so, how so?

CanadianWolverine

That is the thing though, isn't it? We don't have a clear definition of Unified Resource Model yet, so it is hard to extrapolate that to the gameplay of any player, let alone the Commander or Hivemind.

That the idea of Hivemind seems so absurd because we have trouble envisioning how it can be different than the Commander is exactly why the idea will be fresh: you don't know what to expect from Charlie's department. Honestly, who even came up with the top down RTS feel of a Commander in a FPS before NS1? (Hmm, I remember one game, I think it was a space ship shooter thing on a planet, that came before, the idea isn't completely alien to games, it just hadn't been implemented as well IMHO) I'm pretty sure those who had a hand in first turning the concept of a FPS on its head will find ways in which to have things play similar yet different as well.

I think the secret to the success or failure of both the NS2 Commander and Hivemind being fun to play will be in the also as yet unspecific "spells", which is also tied into the notion of a Unified Resource Model.

Honestly, what I find is making it hard for me to come up with some asymmetrical ideas for the sides is a lack of specifics on concepts already proposed by Flayra, not my previous gameplay experiences with NS1. Heck, if all the different RTS gameplay experiences I have had are anything to go by, making two commanders play differently on the same resource models is not that tough - heck, its why some people thought NS1 was a Starcraft mod, rather than just inspired by it, and that's not even bringing up memories of C&C...

ryknow69

<!--quoteo(post=1668252:date=Jan 23 2008, 05:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Jan 23 2008, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This does not really need to be an AI, it could be done with simple triggers like it currently is done.

Resource tower under attack will show up on hud as to which one is under attack. I mean this sounds more like an expansion of the current triggers. --> resource tower under attack (audio/hud display) and gives closest combat types a waypoint.
I do like it though, just imaging this on the alien side

*Resource tower under attack*
>select closest attack units<
*eliminate the intruders* or *defend our resource tower*
>threat eliminated, select gorge<
*heal our resource tower*

Could be applied to players on low health or under attack as well. It will make the game more immersive as well for the aliens to have a hive mind commanding like this... Although it should not get to spammy as people don't want it to interfear with their voicecom/TS/Vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I think his little idea is what I can agree on.

I think he hit it right on the dot.

Konohas Perverted Hermit

<!--quoteo(post=1668252:date=Jan 23 2008, 03:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Jan 23 2008, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This does not really need to be an AI, it could be done with simple triggers like it currently is done.

Resource tower under attack will show up on hud as to which one is under attack. I mean this sounds more like an expansion of the current triggers. --> resource tower under attack (audio/hud display) and gives closest combat types a waypoint.
I do like it though, just imaging this on the alien side

*Resource tower under attack*
>select closest attack units<
*eliminate the intruders* or *defend our resource tower*
>threat eliminated, select gorge<
*heal our resource tower*

Could be applied to players on low health or under attack as well. It will make the game more immersive as well for the aliens to have a hive mind commanding like this... Although it should not get to spammy as people don't want it to interfear with their voicecom/TS/Vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I like this idea. Seems simple but it could help Gorges find and repair damaged structures.

ryknow69

dont forget help skulks know where another marine is

SgtHydra

I think we pretty much already have one.

I recall hearing "our hive is under attack" and "we need builders" during my short ramages as an alien.

If that could be expanded on, that'd be great.

ryknow69

We were thinking of a more Smarter Announcements, like when the RT is under attack, and you're a gorge who's in, lets say, 30 meters of it, you're told "Repair this structure!" while the skulk escorting you gets the message "Kill the attacker of this structure!", or on the lines of that.