This transcript has about 1,500 words, and it gives a fair description of about 5 pictures. So the saying “a picture tells a thousand words†might actually have some truth to it. It’s best to read the transcript while looking at pictures in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2008/01/unknown_worlds_videocast_2_hivecast" target="_blank">video cast</a> – I’ve tried to link some of them. This videopost is all about the hive: Besides showing how atmospheric NS2 will be, it also talks about the new alien spawn system and shows a mechanic for the alien commander. Enjoy:
Max: Hi and welcome to the Unknown Worlds Videocast number 2. Today is Friday Januray 25th. This is Max and with me here is Charlie Charlie: Hello Max: and Cory Cory: Hey Max: Back by popular demand Charlie: nice. Though we missed last week. We thought it would be better to skip a week instead of trying to come up with filler. Even though… Max: unlike all previous weeks Charlie: actually now that I’m thinking about it Max: That’s our new years resolution: no more filler podcasts. Charlie: Exactly. Cory: I did suggest you guys could do a podcast that celebrated me in all my glory, but you guys kinda… Charlie: hmm, yeah we were busy. Cory: Yeah
Charlie: So today we’re going to talk about hives and specifically we’re going to talk about how hives worked in natural selection 1, in case you don’t know or don’t remember, and how they are going to work in NS2 - or I should say how we hope they’re gonna work or how we are starting to think they’re gonna work. So, in NS1 the aliens spawned around hives and basically the idea originally was we were gonna have the hive actually have the ovipositor, as Max calls it, lay eggs. Kinda like from Aliens, pretty much a rip-off from Aliens? Max: You can see that in this original concept. On the bottom there is the ovipositor Charlie: … right, which you all know and love… and the eggs. And the eggs made it into the game and the ovipositor did, obviously, but they never matched up and we never actually had aliens spawn as eggs. They just turned into eggs when they morph between life forms. Cory: And the ovipositor had an animation every time an alien would spawn, right? So it made an animation like it was laying an egg, but no egg would actually… Charlie: yeah, the egg was nowhere near the vent or whatever. We had some ideas for NS1, which we will try to get into NS2. We also have some new ones.
Cory: As we discussed, I think we discussed it in the other podcast, when we showed the hive. It was originally meant to emit steam and glowies flying around it, and none of those actually made it in Charlie: yeah Cory: but we’re hoping for NS2 to actually get some of that stuff in. Charlie: and didn’t we want that big, orange center to glow too? Cory: yeah. Charlie: I think that is something we talked about or you had said that do some special foundering stuff on it. Max: bio-luminescent Charlie: translucent Max: ovipositor Charlie: so that’s how it worked in NS1, for NS2 Cory and I talked and we revisited some of those original ideas. Cory: Yeah, so this is the new concept. Obviously you can see that it bears a lot of resemblance to the original, but improving on designs both for the gameplay that we’ve discussed for NS2 as well as just a general overall aesthetic design to it, trying to give it a little more interest in some area. I think along the top there, Max: it looks like on the back side there is a lot more detail. Cory: yeah, along the backside there, that is where the actual <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovipositor" target="_blank">ovipositor </a>– I can’t pronounce that word – it still retains that but it has kind of become a [_?_] limb. It’s no longer in use so in years of evolution it’s sort of withered up Charlie: no longer needed Cory: no longer needed, but it’s still there and the flaps opened up on the back, which is sorta the new vent flaps for where the new steam and mist emit from, which hopefully we can get into this version of NS Charlie: right Max? Max: yes Charlie: Yay. actually I think that’s really cool, because most new players to NS won’t know about that, but anyone who played it will see that shriveled up thing and they’ll remember “Oh, I remember how that worked in NS!†The whole idea for NS2 is that some time has passed, so both sides have evolved a bit. So that actually makes sense – that’s a nice allusion to the whole idea that the aliens have evolved in the meantime Cory: yeah, exactly. And you can see the tentacles on the front have elongated. And we can actually talk about in a few minutes here. There are some reasons for that. You can also see in the image, as we so fondly refer to them as “glowiesâ€
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> GLOWIES: NEW SPAWN SYSTEM (5:01) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Charlie: It only took 6 or 7 years. Of course … Cory: Being visualized, what those look like. Kind of a cross between insect-jellyfish type of look. But those will be sort of floating around the hive. They would randomly flow down and create the eggs. So basically these are sort of the caterpillars that become the butterfly, essentially. They would randomly land… so each hive room would have a bunch of eggs. We’re going back to the egg idea again. Charlie: Yep, we think so [inaudible] Cory: So there would be say 10-15 eggs in a room. Not all of them actually with an alien that’s spawning from them, so it leaves the marines uncertain where the next alien will spawn from. And when the amount of eggs drops below a certain amount, these floaties would randomly find a surface to land on and morph into an egg, which would then turn into an alien Charlie: I think it would just be really cool to walk into a hive room as a marine Max: I was lukewarm on this glowy idea, until I saw this image Charlie: Oh Max: and the glowies that Cory did were much cooler than I ever imagined based on you talking about glowies. Charlie: right Max: Mist and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2007/02/environment_concepts" target="_blank">infestation </a>are only going to go so far in transforming a room from a man-made marine construction into this other-worldly jungle Cory: really wanted to make it feel like an alien habitat, you know. Charlie: Yeah, slash jungle bog area.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> TENTACLES AND ALIEN COMM (6:44) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Cory: Yeah exactly. Several ideas, also we discussed were, potentially having the hive not hanging from the ceiling. And that was an option we were exploring a bit, one of the main reasons being that we are potentially going to introduce an alien commander mode into NS2. Charlie: Actually we already announced that we are. Max: It’s a very popular decision [<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668641" target="_blank">sarcastic</a>] Cory: It’s still Charlie: Oh oh yeah, ok, I didn’t know if its... [inaudible crosstalk] Cory: ... open to be taken out, if it seems like a completely crappy decision on your part. Charlie: True, gotta try it first. Cory: And a way for the aliens to basically the marine commander terminal is the marine can walk right up to it and pop inside of it. It’s a little harder for the hive to be hanging up above and how is the alien interfacing with it. Charlie: IT has to jump up and hit his use key - that would be dumb Cory: yeah. So I was really adamant about having these things still hanging from the ceiling. I felt, it gave it much more impressive, majestic feeling for the marines to go into a room and looking at this big glowing thing above you. So that’s where the elongated tentacles come in. Charlie: So cool Cory: and the hive would start out with the tentacles hanging low, close to the ground, and an alien would walk up to the tentacles, hit the use key to go into the commander mode. And then there would be an animation of the tentacles opening, wrapping around the alien and the alien would basically disappear, being absorbed into the hive and then the tentacles would play an animation where they retract up. So that way, it’s also fairly obvious to the marine players, when they enter into the room and see the hive, whether there is an alien commander or not. ‘Cause they can see whether the tentacles are stretched down to the ground or they are retracted up inside. And I anticipate, hopefully we can get a lot more idle animations in there this time around, where the tentacles are quivering and flexing and the whole thing is moving subtly. Charlie: I think this concept came out so perfectly. I think there is any chance I want to see another concept. This is it! – as far as I’m concerned Cory: I’m that good, what can I say. Charlie: You are! Well, you know NS, obviously. That helps a lot. And you know how much I want the glowies. You knew they couldn’t be removed. So I guess that’s it for the hive cast and hopefully we’ll see you next week. Cory: Thanks see you later. Max: Bye.
In response to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668568" target="_blank">ChromeAngel's concern</a> about tentacles, Cory wrote: <!--quoteo(post=1668568:date=Jan 27 2008, 01:35 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 27 2008, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right. I actually talked about that a bit, but I think it might have gotten edited out of the final vidcast. I was thinking that the "ceiling tendons" the hive hangs from would have varying lengths. This would either be done procedurally, or, more simply, there would be several versions of the hive model, with varying tendon lengths, that the mappers could choose from, allowing the mappers to have more flexibility in the height of their hive room ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clarification to the alien commander: <!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys!
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks Max, Charlie and Cory for keeping the videocast short and informative - that's the way i like it. As always, if you find mistakes or can complete something I left out, please send me a Private Message.
Well, i'm also against an Alien-Commander, as it would powerup the Aliens too much.
The only thing, that could make sense, would be control over the Dynamic Infestation, giving the Aliens some slightly boosts(like 1/4th of the Chambers boosts, maybe).
And maybe some slightly Movement of the Hive, making it possible to get into annother Position inside the Hive-Room, therefore providing the Aliens with a slightly changeable Location of the hive in the Hive-Room. That would make it harder for Rines to shoot a Sensory-Chamber-cloaked Hive, which was quite easily in NS1 to find when you entered the Hive-Room, maybe with slightly lowering the HP-Regeneration-Rate to balance the new feature.
Oh, and as it goes for the Videoblog2-Audio, the Music at the Intro is still too loud, compared to the Talking.
All in all, i like the new Hive-Design, and the Tentacles. Maybe it might be shown, like the hive is swallowing the entering gorge, that would be quite cool. And also a increased Hive-HP-Regeneration-Rate, when the Alien does nothing would be nice, like 2-Times the normal Regen-Rate.
And the Hive-Swarmies kinda remind me of the young Metroids onboard the GFS-Olympus in MetroidPrime3:Corruption.
I was surprised to hear Max say that the commander is "a very popular decision." It may be popular among the developers, but on the forums, many people have voiced their concerns and a few are strongly against it. While writing the transcript, I had to re-wind several times to make sure that Max said "popular" and not "unpopular"!
I also have some doubts about an alien comm, but if done very carefully, i believe it could improve the game so much that players looking back to NS1 might think "how did aliens play without a comm?!"
The developers haven't mentioned too much about what the alien commander would be able to do. So far we know that he will have "spells" and will help unify alien resources, but it's unclear what kind of spells he'll have or how he'll spend resources. Since the gorges will appear in NS2, they'll most likely remain the primary builders - but again the commander's role in alien building is unclear. We'll just have to wait till they reveal more information.
<!--quoteo(post=1668602:date=Jan 27 2008, 10:05 PM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Jan 27 2008, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was surprised to hear Max say that the commander is "a very popular decision." It may be popular among the developers, but on the forums, many people have voiced their concerns and a few are strongly against it. While writing the transcript, I had to re-wind several times to make sure that Max said "popular" and not "unpopular"!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? If I remember the threads we have had on the idea before and especially since it was first brought up by the Devs, it has been a popular decision to "try". Which all they said they would do, even in this, that they would try it but it plays out as a bad decision, they are not beyond finding other ways to improve upon the Kharaa experience for new and old alike. But hey, my impression of the general mood of things has a bias, the idea is popular with myself. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2008
I think we still don't know enough about the hive mind, I mean all they said is that they are thinking about it and have a concept idea on how a player could get into the hive.
I think we are jumping the gun here in saying ONOES ALIEN COMMANDER!!! Also as it is clear that this reaction goes toward the Onos name <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyway, I think it would be rather sillylooking if a hive would be located in a similar location like refinery on bast, hanging from the ceiling with long tentacles. So I take it bast refinery type of hives have to be reworked? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Also I'm with Scythe on this one... Chromeangel WTFBQQ! /hi
But one thing is scary, alien commander? What will he do? The same like marine commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, so not like the regular marine commander dropping chambers and alien stuff. I seen why it would take away the gorgies.
So what can the alien commander do then? It is one less "life" in the game playing against the marines, so maybe it gives the entire team a bonus, like "seeking out" the marines, and having some sort of area effect like releasing chemicals into an area via "sending out floaties" or something?
I also just had abn idea. Maybe part of the gorgies jumping the hive would be for defense. So if they see the marines coming in to shoot the hive, they can "jump into it" and release glowies who surround the marines and very very slowly "eat them," not really doing alot of damage but sort of a defensive reaction. SO maybe the alien who is in the hvie isn't making the alien team invinsable, but they can give out a bonus to the team like an attack bonus, or they can defend the hive from within, or maybe even help heal the team faster...?
<!--quoteo(post=1668607:date=Jan 27 2008, 11:02 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 27 2008, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh? If I remember the threads we have had on the idea before and especially since it was first brought up by the Devs, it has been a popular decision to "try". Which all they said they would do, even in this, that they would try it but it plays out as a bad decision, they are not beyond finding other ways to improve upon the Kharaa experience for new and old alike. But hey, my impression of the general mood of things has a bias, the idea is popular with myself. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you read 14th podcast thread, where the alien comm was revealed? The decision to make an alien comm was a big surprise and the reception was controversial - certainly not very popular. Most people were at first concerned that aliens would be too similar to marines, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664127" target="_blank">Max </a>and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664131" target="_blank">Charlie </a>assured that they would make aliens unique. By now, people on the forums have began to accept the alien commander - some unwillingly. But there are still many people speaking out against it - just check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668562" target="_blank">responses </a>to this videocast!
If you check the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664768" target="_blank">14th podcast transcript</a> (go to the heading "alien commander"), it seems like the idea of an alien commander slipped out: Charlie wanted Max to reveal alien canals, but he revealed alien commander instead. They clearly weren't ready to talk about it in detail - that's probably why Charlie shot Max a "dirty look." Had they revealed it later, with more details and told what great things they could do with it, then it probably would have been received with enthusiasm.
I am all for an "alien commander." How i hate that name though! Max, you came up with "ovipositor," could you <i>please </i>come up with something creative for the alien com... hivemind? I think that alone would clear up a lot of controversy. I think this DailyShow <a href="http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/16929/1/TDS-Timetables.wmv" target="_blank">skit </a>illustrates the point well: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, it really does seem that the Democrats' problem isn't that they're calling for timetables, it's that they're calling them "timetables." You're up against Bush and the Republicans, you gotta bring some <i>Zing</i>! Don't call them timetables - call them <i>Patriot Dates</i>, <i>Freedom Deadlines</i>, oh wait, <i>Glory Goals</i>! What decent, patriotic American wouldn't stand behind a Glory Goal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Back to NS2: please, please find a good name for the alien comm - i mean, you'll have to do it later anyway! "Alien commander" is an extremely uncreative and creates a false connection with the marine comm. It's descriptive, yes, but it doesn't fit in the universe at all. The sooner you stop referring to it as "alien comm," the easier people will give up that ugly name.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited January 2008
I'm still against any form of central command for aliens.
The glowies sound cool though. T'would be nice for them to have boid-like behaviour and interact with the environment/players. Scattering when marines come near; climbing up as far as they can and gliding back down when they're idle. etc.
I used to be against an alien comm, but there may be one way that it could work well, imo.
That is, if the alien comm didnt affect the other aliens much at all. If instead he controlled various NPC, DI, Tunnels, defenses (aside from OCs), area boosters, all those kinds of functions. Let gorges be gorges and players be players, all with their own res similar to the current system, but let one player control all the 'ambient choices' of the alien team. Give him enough control over a lot of little things to make it more complicated than a normal class (like the marine comm), but make the sum of those little pieces of power be a force to reckon with.
<!--quoteo(post=1668602:date=Jan 27 2008, 07:05 PM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Jan 27 2008, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was surprised to hear Max say that the commander is "a very popular decision." It may be popular among the developers, but on the forums, many people have voiced their concerns and a few are strongly against it. While writing the transcript, I had to re-wind several times to make sure that Max said "popular" and not "unpopular"!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was being sarcastic when I said it was popular; we're well aware of the negative response it's gotten on the forums. At the moment this doesn't bother us too much since all of the arguments against it are based on people's assumptions of how it will work.
Cory does have a vast amount of artistic talent! I can't even draw stick figures let alone think up concepts like that.
The concept (ie, the way an alien assumes it's commanding role) in the hivecast is very cool. Before I watched it I was 100% against an alien commander role being introduced but now i'm leaning a little closer to the opposition purely because the atmosphere in the gameplay of the concept really suits the game imo. It's definitely going to be interesting to see how it will develop.
<!--quoteo(post=1668641:date=Jan 28 2008, 11:21 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Jan 28 2008, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was being sarcastic when I said it was popular; we're well aware of the negative response it's gotten on the forums. At the moment this doesn't bother us too much since all of the arguments against it are based on people's assumptions of how it will work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, at least the majority of us are being very polite with our concerns! It could be worse!
My feeling is that the negative response is mostly one of fear. If it is possible at this time to address our fears directly, then many of the negative responses may come to an end.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1668558:date=Jan 27 2008, 11:09 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Jan 27 2008, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm willing to be open to an alien commander. Like they said, they have ideas for it but they still need to test it to see if it is fun and adds to the game. I also really like the ideas to make the room feel much more alive. I look forward to seeing how these ideas turn out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I don't like the idea of an kharaa commander I have faith in the devs abilities to make it work. I'd like to think many of the people who speak out against the kharaa commander are in the same boat.
I have a few ideas, which I’ll list in order of saneness. When an alien metamorphosises from glowy to ghoul, it should draw the required energy (and mass) out of the surrounding creep – perhaps browning it or killing it away completely, left alone to quickly regrow. Each alien that spawned, because spawning would draw energy from the infestation, would inhibit the influence or range or spreading rate of the infestation, meaning that the more aliens that died (and then had to be respawned) in a given amount of time, the less the hives could express themselves unto the map.
Perhaps the alien commander idea can be saved by giving the alien control over only the area controlled by the creep spawned by the individual hive s/he controls. Perhaps s/he could even influence the growth of the dynamic infestation.
I think the coolest thing would be if each hive needed to be upgraded to: 1) sort of “tune in,†or “plug in,†or “hear†the rest of the hive mind, or whatever you want to call it, and then distribute that sense of the hive mind to proximal aliens. 2) Allow the communication of the overall alien upgrades. The more hives the team has, the greater their overall influence in parts of the map that don’t have creep/infestation. (I.E. you have more of an effect of defense chambers close to the hive rather than far away. This of course opens the door to having droppable chambers that do nothing else but amplify the hive signal, and so amplify the other chambers’ effect on an alien when that alien is far away from an actual hive.) The “hive bonus†type thing could be proportional to the distance from average center of all the hives, a cumulative effect based on the number of hives, or something else. 3) command and control. For instance, were there an upgrade that increased the rate of some trait for some building (say, the resource gathering rate of RTs), the very hive that was in range of the building (range perhaps defined by infestation or something?) would have to be upgraded from within. Were one hive more important or strategic than others, more resources could be put into it (I.E. you might want to put more resources into upgrading the armor of the hive closest to the marines rather than upgrading a far away hive’s ability to be MCed to, or something), perhaps in the ways of individual hive armor upgrades and such.
In a nut shell I think the alien commander idea would not only look really cool and be a shoo-in for the NS2 trailer, but also present an opportunity to solidify the synergy of the hive mind, the hive influence, and the dynamic infestation.
Even if my ideas are deemed ube12 nubsauce, I look forward to seeing first hand the awesome things you guys are doing with NS.
first of all, keep up the good works! (my little opinion) I don't think player should be able to fly those little glowy things, instead maybe select the eggs they want to spawn in? anyways, I trust you guys <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Go NS2!!
Great concept for sure, I like the "glowies" idea. I guess I sort of thought of the hive glowies as being a sort of alien pollen emitted from the hive that fertilizes eggs that the hive has put down. Everything being discussed sounds like the ns I love but more polished which is great. The alien commander idea I am very pleased to hear will at least be tested. For people wanting a direct port of ns to ns2 I think you should be a bit more open minded and trust the devs to make ns2 even more successful than ns1. One cannot really speculate on the alien commander and how it will pan out without it actually being tested, just like all the discussed planned features. Anyways, been following all the podcasts, keep up the great work guys.
<!--quoteo(post=1668651:date=Jan 28 2008, 12:49 PM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CoolCookieCooks @ Jan 28 2008, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have faith in the alien commander, these guys created one of the best games I've ever played: NS1. I'm sure they can do it again with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not entirely true. They had the concept and made the concept a reality. But in terms of bringing it to the more refined state it is in now, didn't Nem0, grepdashv and Tyr have a LOT to do with that? From what I understand, some glaringly obvious design flaws were only implemented after Charlie turned his attention to setting up UWE and Nem0 was made 'Producer' (more or less project manager), grrepdashv was assigned to heading up QA and Tyr was assigned to making the maps more suited to NS. I think obviously Charlie would have had the final decisions on what changes were to be implemented in NS, but it seems since Nem0, grepdashv and Tyr joined sometime in 2004 (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2004/11/beta_6_and_team_update" target="_blank">announced in Nov '04</a>), the <a href="http://www.bryns.co.uk/ns/version.php#6" target="_blank">changes made for version 3.0</a> and early 3.x updates actually looked at the core issues with the gameplay and introduced 'innate regeneration' for Aliens, non-MC Hive-to-Hive transport (effectively breaking the MC/DC/SC routine), Skulk hitbox fixes, shotgun falloff damage, and an improved Alien cloaking model. Now, some of those issues were technical (Skulk hitboxes, for example), and probably had an extensive period of development to get them fixed, but the innate regen and the Hive transport ideas are relatively small fixes that offer massive improvements to gameplay, and should have been made much earlier on instead of diverting attention to a radically different game mode (Combat).
Maybe it was simply a case of Charlie having more people in his team so he had more time to look at and improve the design, but since the version previous to that introduced Combat, I can't help but feel Charlie is capable of mistakes. I don't want the Alien Commander to be another Combat. I don't even really want it to be another Marine Commander, which already controls too much of the average Marine player's game (decisions on weapons, the ability to receive medical aid, the ability to spawn at the start of a game). I want the Alien commander to be <i>supportive</i>, not <i>defining</i> to the ability of a team to compete with an enemy. Basically, the Alien commander should not technically be needed for the Aliens to win (regardless of whether he can offer an improvement); it should be optional and passively augmentative to the Kharaa. That's pretty much my stance.
---
Back to the main topics of this podcast, and I'm glad about the changes to the HIve/Hiveroom. The glowies will add atmosphere, but their absence (along with a lack of dynamic infestation, I'd imagine) will also make it a bit more obvious to the beginner that a Hive is still growing and not up and running. A growing Hive will be a strange, out-of-place, organic sac, hanging in a metallic, man-made box, but when a Hive becomes active the room will come alive with activity as the Hive extends its area of influence. I have to agree with ChromeAngel and Cory about the non-fixed Hive bungees, although for a first or tech release it's not a major problem if these aren't included - it should be easy enough to work around by extending the geometry above and below the Hive to make it fit.
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
Great podcast, but answer me this: Will the gorges still be as cute and lovable as they are in NS1? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> I don't know what it is, maybe it's the way they move their limbs or their dumb looking face but I love em so much!
<!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 29 2008, 07:48 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 29 2008, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>... <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's good enough for me! Thank you. I shall wait and see how it pans out.
I think that the alien comm, if done correctly, could really add to the alien gameplay. If the interface worked out so that the alien comm basically played the role of the hivemind it would be great. They could only see wherever the infestation/bacteria cloud were and only give directions to areas visible to the bacteria. Nanite infestations (marines etc.) could become clearly visible standing out from the rest of the "hivesight" waypoints and coordination could be provided and maybe a context sensative menu could even be created (who knows). The idea of the hives being the neural centers for the aliens seems like a good one to me. It would also make clouding areas with bacteria an important tactic for map control since it would be the only way to "see" the map.
Just an idea. Who knows <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The Idea of a either a Central or Stationary commander for the aliens just seams out of place and the idea of a gorge being sucked up into the hive for a single stationary commander a bit sillier. The idea in my head was that hive always was the commander for the aliens, or more like it was this central part of all these combined alien minds but wasn't incharge of the aliens so much as it was just the central mind for all the aliens who were essentially 1 entity, a very complex bacteria like specimen. To me to have any sort of leader would seam sort of odd and having a gorge enter the hive odd too. Think of the parasite. It goes in a marine and relays a message to the hive with is mentally linked to all the aliens to see their target. When you teamate gets hurt you see it as if one mind.
Now taking control of hive duties isn't necesary a bad idea, but I think centralizing and making it stationary is bad. Just a quick idea I had. Theres going to be infestation around hives, and probably around dropped structers that spread. I'd think it be a neat idea if the gorge evolved with lots of little tenticles and anytime in was standing in infestion could sort of root itself into the infestation with a cool rooting animation with some cool entanglement sort of melding into the infestation. After that the gorge could be more directly linked to the infestation and hive and take control over certain actions. This would allow the gorge to take command in a sense and also allow multiple gorge commanders, but it wouldn't be centralized and no single alien is in charge. What an alien could do at this point I don't know. Make a central resource count the gorge could plug into and use. (independant from the individual resources). This would sort of allow any body whose gorge to feed of central resources while allowing the more independant aliens to not have to sacrifice their own res pools(which would cause havik in pubs). So like a gorge would have to use his resoures to morph and then build hive/chamber in boondocks, but once plugged into the infestation could not use the hive resources to build ON infestation. I dunno I'm sort of rambling now, but an uncentralized alien commander and non-solitary commander is a good idea IMO.
Basically anyone plugged in could build on any infestation that is in the resource uplink radius using the pooled resources. All non uplinked structers come out of own personal res pool and can be build anywhere.
Just a random scenario, game starts out two skulks run out in oppite directions and use their personal resourses to morph to gorge. Gorge A uses his resources to build resource uplink tower at choke point then plugs into hive and uses hive resources to to buiild an outpost on the infestation around the tower. Gorge B builds a resouce tower which also serves as an uplink too and then plug himself into the infestation around the node and use resources to build defense around node and drops defense chambers in hive which is part of the resource network. Gorge B can now also assist gorge A but linking to the resource network and buiding on the infestation Gorge A created with the pooled resources. Gorge A can build on the infestion which is part of the network with pooled resources while plugged in or he can run around and build on or off infestion using own resources.
Using this model it would allow for other cool things like warping around maps with a different model from humans. Building say a warp would require being building a warp within the overlapping radius of one uplink towers. A faster warp within the range of two, and even faster within three. The creature would stand on a warp and absord into it, then regrow out the other side. Growing out or absorbing in would take time, longer for larger species, and more uplinks would speed the process up. That would make it safe to send small creatures through a slow warp but harder for a large creature. If the defense of the warp is damaged from the growing outside then it reverses and grows back out the absorbing side so it wont die. If both sides are somehow killed before it grows out either side then it could die. This model would prevent the random warping of aliens out of thin air through movment chambers and provide a completly different warp structure from that of the humans. One that would be safer but slower, and scale with both species size and warp size.
Having both a pooled and seperate resources I think would help encourage more infested with structers on the aliens side which previously has usually been minimal since the usefulness of towers was outwieghed by the usefullness of larger species. Having both seperate pools would force one to use both. Even allow for different stratagies. A gorge could build a large (4ish towers) uplink base then use pooled resources to build a hive or save up and use independant resources to build a hive on his own. By balancing resource costs between hive and uplink towers could result in many base building stratagies in different situations. Secure, teamwork and slow, or fast, independant and unsecure. Also remember towers build next to gorges can be built faster as gorges 'build' them so building far towers would take longer than ones right next to ones self allowing for safty vs time strategies. I could pop a defense tower up in hive from across the map and let it build slow, or i can run back risk getting shot and build it fast.
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
If the hive were to be treated as a "sensory input processing matrix" then another layer of alien structures could exist that provided extra information about areas. I also think it would be a great way to integrate infestation more into the game play and really make it important for the aliens to keep it all contiguous so that if a branch of it got cut off (say by a flamethrower) basic sensory information (primarily used early in the game) would be cut off. As the game progressed then gorges could build structures which would allow the sensory information to be transmitted over a certain range (soundwaves or something fast, not pheremones, those diffuse much too slowly). If placed correctly they could greatly improve the alien commanders ability to coordinate attacks and receive constant updates from isolated aliens which could not communicate to the hive in the early game because of nanite interference. It would really force the aliens to work together when they were not in infested areas since the Acomm would be unable to issue orders to that area (until the new sensory organ was placed) or even see what was going on.
tl;dr is basically "restrict hivesight like things to infested areas and only let Acomm see in those areas, later sensory tower like things could be used to provide "wireless" communication between infested areas and aliens, and maybe even between disconnected hives (multiple Acomms anyone?)."
I like the no-filler podcast attitude. I would suggest that you not even go by a schedule. Just go on when certain things are coming together.
If it has been awhile since you touched base just leave a note saying what you are busy on.
I am extremely excited with the artwork coming out. It does look like both sides are evolving and part of what made NS so fun was its solid atmosphere.
Comments
This videopost is all about the hive: Besides showing how atmospheric NS2 will be, it also talks about the new alien spawn system and shows a mechanic for the alien commander. Enjoy:
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> INTRODUCTION (0:23) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Max: Hi and welcome to the Unknown Worlds Videocast number 2. Today is Friday Januray 25th. This is Max and with me here is Charlie
Charlie: Hello
Max: and Cory
Cory: Hey
Max: Back by popular demand
Charlie: nice. Though we missed last week. We thought it would be better to skip a week instead of trying to come up with filler. Even though…
Max: unlike all previous weeks
Charlie: actually now that I’m thinking about it
Max: That’s our new years resolution: no more filler podcasts.
Charlie: Exactly.
Cory: I did suggest you guys could do a podcast that celebrated me in all my glory, but you guys kinda…
Charlie: hmm, yeah we were busy.
Cory: Yeah
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns/concept/hive-concept.jpg" target="_blank">NS1 HIVE</a> (0:58) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Charlie: So today we’re going to talk about hives and specifically we’re going to talk about how hives worked in natural selection 1, in case you don’t know or don’t remember, and how they are going to work in NS2 - or I should say how we hope they’re gonna work or how we are starting to think they’re gonna work. So, in NS1 the aliens spawned around hives and basically the idea originally was we were gonna have the hive actually have the ovipositor, as Max calls it, lay eggs. Kinda like from Aliens, pretty much a rip-off from Aliens?
Max: You can see that in this original concept. On the bottom there is the ovipositor
Charlie: … right, which you all know and love… and the eggs. And the eggs made it into the game and the ovipositor did, obviously, but they never matched up and we never actually had aliens spawn as eggs. They just turned into eggs when they morph between life forms.
Cory: And the ovipositor had an animation every time an alien would spawn, right? So it made an animation like it was laying an egg, but no egg would actually…
Charlie: yeah, the egg was nowhere near the vent or whatever. We had some ideas for NS1, which we will try to get into NS2. We also have some new ones.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/screenshots/hiveconcept.jpg" target="_blank">NS2 HIVE</a> (2:15) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Cory: As we discussed, I think we discussed it in the other podcast, when we showed the hive. It was originally meant to emit steam and glowies flying around it, and none of those actually made it in
Charlie: yeah
Cory: but we’re hoping for NS2 to actually get some of that stuff in.
Charlie: and didn’t we want that big, orange center to glow too?
Cory: yeah.
Charlie: I think that is something we talked about or you had said that do some special foundering stuff on it.
Max: bio-luminescent
Charlie: translucent
Max: ovipositor
Charlie: so that’s how it worked in NS1, for NS2 Cory and I talked and we revisited some of those original ideas.
Cory: Yeah, so this is the new concept. Obviously you can see that it bears a lot of resemblance to the original, but improving on designs both for the gameplay that we’ve discussed for NS2 as well as just a general overall aesthetic design to it, trying to give it a little more interest in some area. I think along the top there,
Max: it looks like on the back side there is a lot more detail.
Cory: yeah, along the backside there, that is where the actual <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovipositor" target="_blank">ovipositor </a>– I can’t pronounce that word – it still retains that but it has kind of become a [_?_] limb. It’s no longer in use so in years of evolution it’s sort of withered up
Charlie: no longer needed
Cory: no longer needed, but it’s still there and the flaps opened up on the back, which is sorta the new vent flaps for where the new steam and mist emit from, which hopefully we can get into this version of NS
Charlie: right Max?
Max: yes
Charlie: Yay. actually I think that’s really cool, because most new players to NS won’t know about that, but anyone who played it will see that shriveled up thing and they’ll remember “Oh, I remember how that worked in NS!†The whole idea for NS2 is that some time has passed, so both sides have evolved a bit. So that actually makes sense – that’s a nice allusion to the whole idea that the aliens have evolved in the meantime
Cory: yeah, exactly. And you can see the tentacles on the front have elongated. And we can actually talk about in a few minutes here. There are some reasons for that. You can also see in the image, as we so fondly refer to them as “glowiesâ€
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> GLOWIES: NEW SPAWN SYSTEM (5:01) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Charlie: It only took 6 or 7 years. Of course …
Cory: Being visualized, what those look like. Kind of a cross between insect-jellyfish type of look. But those will be sort of floating around the hive. They would randomly flow down and create the eggs. So basically these are sort of the caterpillars that become the butterfly, essentially. They would randomly land… so each hive room would have a bunch of eggs. We’re going back to the egg idea again.
Charlie: Yep, we think so [inaudible]
Cory: So there would be say 10-15 eggs in a room. Not all of them actually with an alien that’s spawning from them, so it leaves the marines uncertain where the next alien will spawn from. And when the amount of eggs drops below a certain amount, these floaties would randomly find a surface to land on and morph into an egg, which would then turn into an alien
Charlie: I think it would just be really cool to walk into a hive room as a marine
Max: I was lukewarm on this glowy idea, until I saw this image
Charlie: Oh
Max: and the glowies that Cory did were much cooler than I ever imagined based on you talking about glowies.
Charlie: right
Max: Mist and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2007/02/environment_concepts" target="_blank">infestation </a>are only going to go so far in transforming a room from a man-made marine construction into this other-worldly jungle
Cory: really wanted to make it feel like an alien habitat, you know.
Charlie: Yeah, slash jungle bog area.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> TENTACLES AND ALIEN COMM (6:44) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Cory: Yeah exactly. Several ideas, also we discussed were, potentially having the hive not hanging from the ceiling. And that was an option we were exploring a bit, one of the main reasons being that we are potentially going to introduce an alien commander mode into NS2.
Charlie: Actually we already announced that we are.
Max: It’s a very popular decision [<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668641" target="_blank">sarcastic</a>]
Cory: It’s still
Charlie: Oh oh yeah, ok, I didn’t know if its...
[inaudible crosstalk]
Cory: ... open to be taken out, if it seems like a completely crappy decision on your part.
Charlie: True, gotta try it first.
Cory: And a way for the aliens to basically the marine commander terminal is the marine can walk right up to it and pop inside of it. It’s a little harder for the hive to be hanging up above and how is the alien interfacing with it.
Charlie: IT has to jump up and hit his use key - that would be dumb
Cory: yeah. So I was really adamant about having these things still hanging from the ceiling. I felt, it gave it much more impressive, majestic feeling for the marines to go into a room and looking at this big glowing thing above you. So that’s where the elongated tentacles come in.
Charlie: So cool
Cory: and the hive would start out with the tentacles hanging low, close to the ground, and an alien would walk up to the tentacles, hit the use key to go into the commander mode. And then there would be an animation of the tentacles opening, wrapping around the alien and the alien would basically disappear, being absorbed into the hive and then the tentacles would play an animation where they retract up. So that way, it’s also fairly obvious to the marine players, when they enter into the room and see the hive, whether there is an alien commander or not. ‘Cause they can see whether the tentacles are stretched down to the ground or they are retracted up inside. And I anticipate, hopefully we can get a lot more idle animations in there this time around, where the tentacles are quivering and flexing and the whole thing is moving subtly.
Charlie: I think this concept came out so perfectly. I think there is any chance I want to see another concept. This is it! – as far as I’m concerned
Cory: I’m that good, what can I say.
Charlie: You are! Well, you know NS, obviously. That helps a lot. And you know how much I want the glowies. You knew they couldn’t be removed. So I guess that’s it for the hive cast and hopefully we’ll see you next week.
Cory: Thanks see you later.
Max: Bye.
In response to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668568" target="_blank">ChromeAngel's concern</a> about tentacles, Cory wrote:
<!--quoteo(post=1668568:date=Jan 27 2008, 01:35 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 27 2008, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right. I actually talked about that a bit, but I think it might have gotten edited out of the final vidcast. I was thinking that the "ceiling tendons" the hive hangs from would have varying lengths. This would either be done procedurally, or, more simply, there would be several versions of the hive model, with varying tendon lengths, that the mappers could choose from, allowing the mappers to have more flexibility in the height of their hive room ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clarification to the alien commander:
<!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey guys!
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks Max, Charlie and Cory for keeping the videocast short and informative - that's the way i like it. As always, if you find mistakes or can complete something I left out, please send me a Private Message.
The only thing, that could make sense, would be control over the Dynamic Infestation, giving the Aliens some slightly boosts(like 1/4th of the Chambers boosts, maybe).
And maybe some slightly Movement of the Hive, making it possible to get into annother Position inside the Hive-Room, therefore providing the Aliens with a slightly changeable Location of the hive in the Hive-Room.
That would make it harder for Rines to shoot a Sensory-Chamber-cloaked Hive, which was quite easily in NS1 to find when you entered the Hive-Room, maybe with slightly lowering the HP-Regeneration-Rate to balance the new feature.
Oh, and as it goes for the Videoblog2-Audio, the Music at the Intro is still too loud, compared to the Talking.
All in all, i like the new Hive-Design, and the Tentacles. Maybe it might be shown, like the hive is swallowing the entering gorge, that would be quite cool.
And also a increased Hive-HP-Regeneration-Rate, when the Alien does nothing would be nice, like 2-Times the normal Regen-Rate.
And the Hive-Swarmies kinda remind me of the young Metroids onboard the GFS-Olympus in MetroidPrime3:Corruption.
I also have some doubts about an alien comm, but if done very carefully, i believe it could improve the game so much that players looking back to NS1 might think "how did aliens play without a comm?!"
The developers haven't mentioned too much about what the alien commander would be able to do. So far we know that he will have "spells" and will help unify alien resources, but it's unclear what kind of spells he'll have or how he'll spend resources. Since the gorges will appear in NS2, they'll most likely remain the primary builders - but again the commander's role in alien building is unclear. We'll just have to wait till they reveal more information.
Huh? If I remember the threads we have had on the idea before and especially since it was first brought up by the Devs, it has been a popular decision to "try". Which all they said they would do, even in this, that they would try it but it plays out as a bad decision, they are not beyond finding other ways to improve upon the Kharaa experience for new and old alike. But hey, my impression of the general mood of things has a bias, the idea is popular with myself. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I think we are jumping the gun here in saying ONOES ALIEN COMMANDER!!! Also as it is clear that this reaction goes toward the Onos name <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Anyway, I think it would be rather sillylooking if a hive would be located in a similar location like refinery on bast, hanging from the ceiling with long tentacles. So I take it bast refinery type of hives have to be reworked? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Also I'm with Scythe on this one... Chromeangel WTFBQQ! /hi
But one thing is scary, alien commander?
What will he do?
The same like marine commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, so not like the regular marine commander dropping chambers and alien stuff. I seen why it would take away the gorgies.
So what can the alien commander do then? It is one less "life" in the game playing against the marines, so maybe it gives the entire team a bonus, like "seeking out" the marines, and having some sort of area effect like releasing chemicals into an area via "sending out floaties" or something?
I also just had abn idea. Maybe part of the gorgies jumping the hive would be for defense. So if they see the marines coming in to shoot the hive, they can "jump into it" and release glowies who surround the marines and very very slowly "eat them," not really doing alot of damage but sort of a defensive reaction. SO maybe the alien who is in the hvie isn't making the alien team invinsable, but they can give out a bonus to the team like an attack bonus, or they can defend the hive from within, or maybe even help heal the team faster...?
Have you read 14th podcast thread, where the alien comm was revealed? The decision to make an alien comm was a big surprise and the reception was controversial - certainly not very popular. Most people were at first concerned that aliens would be too similar to marines, but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664127" target="_blank">Max </a>and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664131" target="_blank">Charlie </a>assured that they would make aliens unique. By now, people on the forums have began to accept the alien commander - some unwillingly. But there are still many people speaking out against it - just check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103693&view=findpost&p=1668562" target="_blank">responses </a>to this videocast!
If you check the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664768" target="_blank">14th podcast transcript</a> (go to the heading "alien commander"), it seems like the idea of an alien commander slipped out: Charlie wanted Max to reveal alien canals, but he revealed alien commander instead. They clearly weren't ready to talk about it in detail - that's probably why Charlie shot Max a "dirty look." Had they revealed it later, with more details and told what great things they could do with it, then it probably would have been received with enthusiasm.
I am all for an "alien commander." How i hate that name though! Max, you came up with "ovipositor," could you <i>please </i>come up with something creative for the alien com... hivemind? I think that alone would clear up a lot of controversy. I think this DailyShow <a href="http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/16929/1/TDS-Timetables.wmv" target="_blank">skit </a>illustrates the point well:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, it really does seem that the Democrats' problem isn't that they're calling for timetables, it's that they're calling them "timetables." You're up against Bush and the Republicans, you gotta bring some <i>Zing</i>! Don't call them timetables - call them <i>Patriot Dates</i>, <i>Freedom Deadlines</i>, oh wait, <i>Glory Goals</i>! What decent, patriotic American wouldn't stand behind a Glory Goal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to NS2: please, please find a good name for the alien comm - i mean, you'll have to do it later anyway! "Alien commander" is an extremely uncreative and creates a false connection with the marine comm. It's descriptive, yes, but it doesn't fit in the universe at all. The sooner you stop referring to it as "alien comm," the easier people will give up that ugly name.
The glowies sound cool though. T'would be nice for them to have boid-like behaviour and interact with the environment/players. Scattering when marines come near; climbing up as far as they can and gliding back down when they're idle. etc.
That is, if the alien comm didnt affect the other aliens much at all. If instead he controlled various NPC, DI, Tunnels, defenses (aside from OCs), area boosters, all those kinds of functions. Let gorges be gorges and players be players, all with their own res similar to the current system, but let one player control all the 'ambient choices' of the alien team. Give him enough control over a lot of little things to make it more complicated than a normal class (like the marine comm), but make the sum of those little pieces of power be a force to reckon with.
I was being sarcastic when I said it was popular; we're well aware of the negative response it's gotten on the forums. At the moment this doesn't bother us too much since all of the arguments against it are based on people's assumptions of how it will work.
The concept (ie, the way an alien assumes it's commanding role) in the hivecast is very cool. Before I watched it I was 100% against an alien commander role being introduced but now i'm leaning a little closer to the opposition purely because the atmosphere in the gameplay of the concept really suits the game imo. It's definitely going to be interesting to see how it will develop.
Keep it up guys, can't wait for the release _b
Hey, at least the majority of us are being very polite with our concerns! It could be worse!
My feeling is that the negative response is mostly one of fear. If it is possible at this time to address our fears directly, then many of the negative responses may come to an end.
While I don't like the idea of an kharaa commander I have faith in the devs abilities to make it work. I'd like to think many of the people who speak out against the kharaa commander are in the same boat.
When an alien metamorphosises from glowy to ghoul, it should draw the required energy (and mass) out of the surrounding creep – perhaps browning it or killing it away completely, left alone to quickly regrow. Each alien that spawned, because spawning would draw energy from the infestation, would inhibit the influence or range or spreading rate of the infestation, meaning that the more aliens that died (and then had to be respawned) in a given amount of time, the less the hives could express themselves unto the map.
Perhaps the alien commander idea can be saved by giving the alien control over only the area controlled by the creep spawned by the individual hive s/he controls. Perhaps s/he could even influence the growth of the dynamic infestation.
I think the coolest thing would be if each hive needed to be upgraded to:
1) sort of “tune in,†or “plug in,†or “hear†the rest of the hive mind, or whatever you want to call it, and then distribute that sense of the hive mind to proximal aliens.
2) Allow the communication of the overall alien upgrades. The more hives the team has, the greater their overall influence in parts of the map that don’t have creep/infestation. (I.E. you have more of an effect of defense chambers close to the hive rather than far away. This of course opens the door to having droppable chambers that do nothing else but amplify the hive signal, and so amplify the other chambers’ effect on an alien when that alien is far away from an actual hive.) The “hive bonus†type thing could be proportional to the distance from average center of all the hives, a cumulative effect based on the number of hives, or something else.
3) command and control. For instance, were there an upgrade that increased the rate of some trait for some building (say, the resource gathering rate of RTs), the very hive that was in range of the building (range perhaps defined by infestation or something?) would have to be upgraded from within. Were one hive more important or strategic than others, more resources could be put into it (I.E. you might want to put more resources into upgrading the armor of the hive closest to the marines rather than upgrading a far away hive’s ability to be MCed to, or something), perhaps in the ways of individual hive armor upgrades and such.
In a nut shell I think the alien commander idea would not only look really cool and be a shoo-in for the NS2 trailer, but also present an opportunity to solidify the synergy of the hive mind, the hive influence, and the dynamic infestation.
Even if my ideas are deemed ube12 nubsauce, I look forward to seeing first hand the awesome things you guys are doing with NS.
Maybe it was simply a case of Charlie having more people in his team so he had more time to look at and improve the design, but since the version previous to that introduced Combat, I can't help but feel Charlie is capable of mistakes. I don't want the Alien Commander to be another Combat. I don't even really want it to be another Marine Commander, which already controls too much of the average Marine player's game (decisions on weapons, the ability to receive medical aid, the ability to spawn at the start of a game). I want the Alien commander to be <i>supportive</i>, not <i>defining</i> to the ability of a team to compete with an enemy. Basically, the Alien commander should not technically be needed for the Aliens to win (regardless of whether he can offer an improvement); it should be optional and passively augmentative to the Kharaa. That's pretty much my stance.
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Back to the main topics of this podcast, and I'm glad about the changes to the HIve/Hiveroom. The glowies will add atmosphere, but their absence (along with a lack of dynamic infestation, I'd imagine) will also make it a bit more obvious to the beginner that a Hive is still growing and not up and running. A growing Hive will be a strange, out-of-place, organic sac, hanging in a metallic, man-made box, but when a Hive becomes active the room will come alive with activity as the Hive extends its area of influence. I have to agree with ChromeAngel and Cory about the non-fixed Hive bungees, although for a first or tech release it's not a major problem if these aren't included - it should be easy enough to work around by extending the geometry above and below the Hive to make it fit.
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie
EDIT: I wasn't being sarcastic if it came off that way. It's just Monday.
That's good enough for me! Thank you. I shall wait and see how it pans out.
Just an idea. Who knows <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Now taking control of hive duties isn't necesary a bad idea, but I think centralizing and making it stationary is bad. Just a quick idea I had. Theres going to be infestation around hives, and probably around dropped structers that spread. I'd think it be a neat idea if the gorge evolved with lots of little tenticles and anytime in was standing in infestion could sort of root itself into the infestation with a cool rooting animation with some cool entanglement sort of melding into the infestation. After that the gorge could be more directly linked to the infestation and hive and take control over certain actions. This would allow the gorge to take command in a sense and also allow multiple gorge commanders, but it wouldn't be centralized and no single alien is in charge. What an alien could do at this point I don't know. Make a central resource count the gorge could plug into and use. (independant from the individual resources). This would sort of allow any body whose gorge to feed of central resources while allowing the more independant aliens to not have to sacrifice their own res pools(which would cause havik in pubs). So like a gorge would have to use his resoures to morph and then build hive/chamber in boondocks, but once plugged into the infestation could not use the hive resources to build ON infestation. I dunno I'm sort of rambling now, but an uncentralized alien commander and non-solitary commander is a good idea IMO.
Basically anyone plugged in could build on any infestation that is in the resource uplink radius using the pooled resources. All non uplinked structers come out of own personal res pool and can be build anywhere.
Just a random scenario, game starts out two skulks run out in oppite directions and use their personal resourses to morph to gorge. Gorge A uses his resources to build resource uplink tower at choke point then plugs into hive and uses hive resources to to buiild an outpost on the infestation around the tower. Gorge B builds a resouce tower which also serves as an uplink too and then plug himself into the infestation around the node and use resources to build defense around node and drops defense chambers in hive which is part of the resource network. Gorge B can now also assist gorge A but linking to the resource network and buiding on the infestation Gorge A created with the pooled resources. Gorge A can build on the infestion which is part of the network with pooled resources while plugged in or he can run around and build on or off infestion using own resources.
Using this model it would allow for other cool things like warping around maps with a different model from humans. Building say a warp would require being building a warp within the overlapping radius of one uplink towers. A faster warp within the range of two, and even faster within three. The creature would stand on a warp and absord into it, then regrow out the other side. Growing out or absorbing in would take time, longer for larger species, and more uplinks would speed the process up. That would make it safe to send small creatures through a slow warp but harder for a large creature. If the defense of the warp is damaged from the growing outside then it reverses and grows back out the absorbing side so it wont die. If both sides are somehow killed before it grows out either side then it could die. This model would prevent the random warping of aliens out of thin air through movment chambers and provide a completly different warp structure from that of the humans. One that would be safer but slower, and scale with both species size and warp size.
Having both a pooled and seperate resources I think would help encourage more infested with structers on the aliens side which previously has usually been minimal since the usefulness of towers was outwieghed by the usefullness of larger species. Having both seperate pools would force one to use both. Even allow for different stratagies. A gorge could build a large (4ish towers) uplink base then use pooled resources to build a hive or save up and use independant resources to build a hive on his own. By balancing resource costs between hive and uplink towers could result in many base building stratagies in different situations. Secure, teamwork and slow, or fast, independant and unsecure. Also remember towers build next to gorges can be built faster as gorges 'build' them so building far towers would take longer than ones right next to ones self allowing for safty vs time strategies. I could pop a defense tower up in hive from across the map and let it build slow, or i can run back risk getting shot and build it fast.
Now I'm really rambling.
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good answer.
tl;dr is basically "restrict hivesight like things to infested areas and only let Acomm see in those areas, later sensory tower like things could be used to provide "wireless" communication between infested areas and aliens, and maybe even between disconnected hives (multiple Acomms anyone?)."
I like the no-filler podcast attitude.
I would suggest that you not even go by a schedule.
Just go on when certain things are coming together.
If it has been awhile since you touched base just leave a note saying what you are busy on.
I am extremely excited with the artwork coming out.
It does look like both sides are evolving
and part of what made NS so fun was its solid atmosphere.
keep plugging :-)