How to impliment the tutorial

Driadon

One issue that was brought up in the Feb. 8th podcast is when to put something like a tutorial into a game. Most people disregard helping tools when it comes to games, but I may have an idea for it: make the tutorial the demo of the game. This would fix many issues as then people not knowing what to expect aren't thrown head first into the depths of the game.
Anyone else agree that this would be a good idea?

spellman23

I kinda like.

So, kinda use the tech demo not only to show off what the game will be like but also as a way to introduce the game to newbs using a specially tailored map/scripts.

Driadon

That would be the idea. I mean, people use game demos for two reasons: try the game out and see how it will run on their computer. A game like NS has much more depth then your average point-your-gun-here shooter, and using the planned tutorial would be a perfect way of catering to both.
On top of that it would also be a good way to show off the new features of NS2 to the veteran NS players.

darktimes

hmm

i like the idea
but it should be a second tutorial in the full game be

also i would like that the tutorial looks
like a small singleplayer misson (not that complicatet like hl2)

marine start in spaceship whos under attack by the aliens
and try to identiefy the engagers
like a tutorial and a small background story in one

Thaldarin

<!--quoteo(post=1671007:date=Feb 20 2008, 03:21 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 20 2008, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I kinda like.

So, kinda use the tech demo not only to show off what the game will be like but also as a way to introduce the game to newbs using a specially tailored map/scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The NS 2 Technology Release will as far as I am aware not be a working version of the game, it's not a playable demo. It merely simulates as much of the visual effects and interactive options for gameplay as possible at it's release date. So that really wouldn't work at all.

spellman23

What I mean is turning something into more of a demo that shows off gameplay stuff, but by walking you through and teaching as it goes.

Tech demo just seemed like a good way to do it, almost an interactive demo to show off what's gonna be in the game.

Harimau

tech <b>release</b> not tech <i>demo</i>
so what thaldarin's saying is completely right

but i do like the idea of <b><i>a</i> demo</b> = tutorial.

'could even do it the way i suggested a tutorial could be made, earlier:
<!--quoteo(post=1671252:date=Feb 23 2008, 05:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 23 2008, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my idea is a hands-on 'simulation' of a real match.
basically you're thrust into the middle of a (scripted) battle, you follow orders, and learn everything you need to know about the game over the course of a (lengthy) simulated match.
situations change, objectives change, at some points you get ha/jp, different weapons, and have to enter the command chair.
you can be killed and threatened, but you can't lose since it is a tutorial, you just respawn.
until you learn certain things, demonstrated by your completion of certain objectives, the "match" won't go ahead, you kill, you die, but until you activate certain triggers, the situation in the scripted match won't change and you won't go on to the next objective/'lesson'.
It'll take a simpler, straightforward map, waypoints, voice-overs, AI-controlled allies+enemies and scripted events.
you can explain general map objectives, how the game works, and the storyline through the tutorial.
there should be a similar (in terms of application) separate 'tutorial' for the alien team.
->the biggest drawback is that it'll take time. a lengthy time for the devs to create the tutorial. and a relatively lengthy match simulation for new players to play through that's not at all indicative of the length of or number of different situations in a real match (which can't really be helped if you wanna teach players the whole game, unless you split the tutorial up into standalone matches (phases) that each teach a selection of progressively harder/complex parts of the game, but that's even more work and somewhat daunting for both developer and player).

in addition, there should be an in-built bot mode, for learning to shoot, and more importantly learning the individual maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

La Chupacabra

this simulation type thing, even though sounds perfect to me, would require hard work on enemy AI. This means spending precious time on implementation of a thing that you _won't_ see in the full game (NS is purely multiplayer, right?) and, well, additional time on learning to script AI in the first place, since AI is completely different than other aspects of game development and very hard too!

and if AI wouldn't be made perfectly, NS might loose on new players, who would dump the game simply because their first impresion of it was spoiled by skulk's running into a wall, gorge's blocking on chambers, marines throwing nades under each other's legs etc.

After listening to the podcasts I have got the impression that dev's would rather implement a tutorial in the actual gameplay, by making the game more intuitive or by a series of well placed hints... let's better concentrate on that kind of ideas, if we want to make ourselfs somehow useful <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

ooh, just got an idea, how about make simply a game-play movie (accessible through the game menu) after the core game graphics and mechanics are done, a signle match seen through the eyes of both aliens and maries at the same time, with somebody speaking in the background explaining the situation? The game would be of course organised in such a way so it can be the best learning material possible. I know it's nothing exciting, but tutorials are not about that. The best part of that is probably the fact that it wouldn't be so time consuming and it could be left for the playtesters to do, so the dev's can concentrate on balansing and that kind of issues...

Thaldarin

The best way to a demo if you are going to go down that route is what they do with valve source mods, red front etc. A free weekend, why create more work of a tutorial map which has less features?

EvilSmoo

Well, the basic AI for humanoids in HL might be sufficient for a tutorial, at least marines. It depends whether the headcrab AI is willing to walk to the other side of the map.

Wouldn't be asking them to do a lot, the AI would be there as meat shields.

Beyond that, having a scripted commander giving "repair this" "build this" and "hive is here" would pretty much be it.

For aliens, IF you can get a few AI skulks to do the same thing, would be similar.

"Go here" "mutate into something" "open the door to let the AI skulks through" "mutate to onos and kill this turret".


Heck, if autobalance-bots ever got put in, it would be useful. I guess it just depends on AI work, and I know zip about that, just throwing ideas out here.

Harimau

In regards to AI:
taken from the About page.

<!--QuoteBegin-Natural Selection 2+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Natural Selection 2)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Instant Gratification</b>
Rated maps and powerful matchmaking allow you to play with people of any skill level. Play on servers from Easy to Expert or compete in tournaments. Play on the Internet, on a LAN <b>or offline with any number of players. Clever bots will do the rest.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sarisel

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. also had many promises.

<!--quoteo(post=1671552:date=Feb 26 2008, 11:14 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 26 2008, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to AI:
taken from the About page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

spellman23

There's some pretty decent AIs out there for NS. Whichbot does a very good job of telling Skulks to keep suiciding at your base while a few go out and build buildings. And go grab a simple CS bot and you've got a Marine.... sorta.....

I don't like a walk-by-the-hand cinematic demo. I'm thinking similar to what this did: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90930" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90930</a> but better.

Harimau

Sarisel: Nah man, I was just sayin'.. if they're promising that, then the argument that "you can't make a (simulation) tutorial because then you'd have to make an AI" is bull######, since they're planning to implement an AI anyway.

the_x5

I wonder if we could have our own cinematic intro's to maps kind of like how TF2 did with their offical maps... (note especially how they make sure to keep with the artistic theme of the game)

Not sure where I'm going with this thought but reading your replies made me think of that...

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Harimau

I never actually watched those.. but it couldn't hurt, I suppose.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1672272:date=Mar 5 2008, 11:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 5 2008, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never actually watched those.. but it couldn't hurt, I suppose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.

darktimes

fortress forever?
ever play it?

it have a really good ingame tutorial
also tutorial videos on streaming

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1672249:date=Mar 6 2008, 12:34 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 6 2008, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if we could have our own cinematic intro's to maps kind of like how TF2 did with their offical maps... (note especially how they make sure to keep with the artistic theme of the game)

Not sure where I'm going with this thought but reading your replies made me think of that...

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Definitely awesome.

I also like UT2K4 Assault overviews where they help show and describe each objective. This is more applicable for a more objective based game like Dystopia, but a similar idea would be helpful to give an idea of Hives and special highlight locations.