Structure Blocking
BCSeph
Join Date: 2005-02-24 Member: 42384Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-02-24 Member: 42384Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Tactic or exploit...you decide for NS2</div>We all have experienced it...you fade into a marine infested room, take some hits, attempt to escape, but meet an untimely doom as a comm chair suddenly appears in your exit. Most servers nowadays have made it against the rules to block, but there is a gray line between what is blocking and what is not. In many cases, if a structure exists only to block, then it is against server rules. If it is a TF in a hallway that has turrets with it for example, then it is not against the rules because although it blocks the hallway, it does not exist solely for that purpose. Spamming unbuilt structures is now less common in 3.2 due to the "ghost structure" effect, but blocking in general still exists.
Now the main point of this post. In NS2, should there be any measures taken to prevent blocking, or should it be left up to server admins to decide. Or is there some sort of compromise in the middle?
On one side, preventing blocking with game mechanics is a difficult problem. Allowing aliens to simply go through buildings (TF2 style) or making the hitboxes presumably small relative to the model in my opinion are rash fixes to this issue. TF2 does have a good system, but in a game where room space is cramped and movement is much more precise, I believe TF2's anti-blocking method does not achieve what we want.
On the other hand, blocking can be seen as tactical in a sense that marines can establish a secure perimeter without having to worry about fades running though turrets and other defenses at blazing fast speeds, heading straight for the players instead of the structures. In a sense, this significantly lowers the confidence marines will have in structural defense, and thus forces marines to rely more on mobile teams of players rather than push and hold strategies. In NS1, both "mobile team" and "push and hold" strategies are possible effective ways to victory. Anti-blocking measures may limit the strategies marines can use, and thus limiting gameplay variety.
<b>
In a nutshell</b>, blocking can be seen as an exploit or a tactic. TF2's system may not work well in NS environment. Limiting blocking can hurt gameplay variety, preventing blocking can counter annoyances/unfairness for aliens.
So the basic question here is: how should NS2 deal with blocking/structures?
Now the main point of this post. In NS2, should there be any measures taken to prevent blocking, or should it be left up to server admins to decide. Or is there some sort of compromise in the middle?
On one side, preventing blocking with game mechanics is a difficult problem. Allowing aliens to simply go through buildings (TF2 style) or making the hitboxes presumably small relative to the model in my opinion are rash fixes to this issue. TF2 does have a good system, but in a game where room space is cramped and movement is much more precise, I believe TF2's anti-blocking method does not achieve what we want.
On the other hand, blocking can be seen as tactical in a sense that marines can establish a secure perimeter without having to worry about fades running though turrets and other defenses at blazing fast speeds, heading straight for the players instead of the structures. In a sense, this significantly lowers the confidence marines will have in structural defense, and thus forces marines to rely more on mobile teams of players rather than push and hold strategies. In NS1, both "mobile team" and "push and hold" strategies are possible effective ways to victory. Anti-blocking measures may limit the strategies marines can use, and thus limiting gameplay variety.
<b>
In a nutshell</b>, blocking can be seen as an exploit or a tactic. TF2's system may not work well in NS environment. Limiting blocking can hurt gameplay variety, preventing blocking can counter annoyances/unfairness for aliens.
So the basic question here is: how should NS2 deal with blocking/structures?
Comments
Is it effective? Aren't you basically "blocking" an enemy when you place turrets anyways? Yes. You are trying to block the enemies advance. They can't make it through so you have time to arm yourself and reach the next objective; however, we are no longer using what we were given by he game designers. If we are just going to play god with the game levels and draw uncrossable lines for the aliens every single time, then they should give the marines chairs, tables, trash cans and glue. There you have it, a wall.
Is it fun? I never found it to be, no matter what side I was on. It's fun for the marines sometimes if the server allows, but people usually stop trying, quit, or get pissed when they are not allowed to counter using a different cheat. "It's only fun till someone gets hurt."
Does it add anything to the game? Sure it does... openly cheating. The commander is showing his team that they can now go walking around and wait till he gives them all JPs, HMGs and godlike powers to win [if you even want to even call it that]. It basically adds a sense of "we no longer have to care because our commander is using the cheat again." Even if I am a peon marine, I always feel like the commander cheated us all out of a win... a real game! It gives them the power not just to say who goes where, when and how for us to beat those punk ass aliens, but now he is dictating if I can even enjoy my own game.
So yes it is effective, but not by using teamwork. Is it fun, not usually. No marines would block everytime because they know they would never enjoy actually PLAYING the game! Does it add any value? Quite the opposite in my opinion. *shrug*
As far as tactics go though there are many other tactics used for blocking ways into an area (including Sieges, TFs over vent holes, and Sentry turrets) and out of an area (HA blocking a unit from leaving a room once it has entered). It just seemed like it required less teamwork to drop a CC in the doorway before the onos left so we can all empty another clip into it to kill it. And I believe that the teamwork in NS is the core to it, so obviously I say do without a change as it seems to have adapted well.
It removes building blocking exploits (dropping random crap even with no Marines near by), but you can still use structures tactfully to help block off certain lines of fire.
For example, a favorite strategy of mine is to drop a TF in the middle of a hallway to serve as a barrier for skulks or other lifeforms. Granted it has to get built, but building placement to help funnel enemies is a very valuable RTS Element.
As for dropping buildings to block an escape, that's something I really miss. I know most people don't like it and stuff, but it was useful and gave a nice tactic. It's probably better gone, but still a fun mechanic. Perhaps we should have a special building for such instances, except it's not instant drop. Kinda like a rising short wall or something so the Aliens see it coming and can potentially have issues, but it doesn't instantly block their route out.
Another common mechanic I've seen to help stop building exploits is you can't build a building unless someone on your team is within a certain radius of the drop site. Something to think about.
Regarding blocking of exits for lifeforms or even marines, I think you could do that in ns2 due to welding doors or being able to control DI to block pathways completely.
According to the podcasts there will be more weld spots in maps, which can be undone by aliens though to gain more dynamic map layouts.
You could just stop welding before it triggers the door to close and wait for a fade to shoot and block it e.g.
As alien commander or maybe gorge you could wait for the right moment to block pathways behind the marines by controlling/creating DI to cut off their way back to the phasegate in order to start an ambush e.g.
Me thinks that blocking should be a valid marine tactic but not in a lame exploitative way. The rines should have a block structure. or this could be done by being able to weld random objects and doors.
In effect a fade or onos enters a room the rines should have a legitimate tactic of blocking off its escape by either welding the door, welding objects to the entrance, or dropping a wall structure or a commander spell that creates a barrier. It should be balanced so it takes either res, time or energy to do. It shouldnt be spamable and the aliens need a team work counter. So essentially it would stop lone wolf fades or onos if the rines are organised but an organised alien team could counter it.
However sneaky blocks via droping other structures is an little unfair in my opinion. if blocking is going to happen it has to be a team tactic and the aliens should be able to combat it with team work cos in my opinion this is fun.
I think Invader Zim raises a good point.
If it does arise as a problem a possible cooldown of say 120seconds for building or something similar until it disappears seems logical.
What if large aliens could push structures? Discuss.
I don't think turrets will work as they do in NS1. IPs shouldn't be able to be influenced by being out of range of a command chair. They aren't influenced by it in NS1.
Good catch, but not impossible as anytime described.
A more important question is what does this add to the game? Why would a large alien want to move a structure? The only time I can think think maneuver would be relevant is when a comm builds a tf/cc in a doorway.
Placing structures correctly is nearly a job in and of itself. I don't think a fade should be able to slowly nudge your AA out of base.
This was the purpose of the suggestion.
Marines: On my way!
Commander: Nice j... What?!
*Fade slowly takes the AA away*
Commander: Stop that ######!
*Fade kills marines and takes away AA*
Commander: No!!
Fade: It's all mine now!</span>
Ok, but an Onos? It's an elephant basically, it stupid when marines position theirselves in front of the Onos to block they way and gun they down. Lighter structures shouldn't either. And maybe charge allow they pull heavier things? (not RTs, IPs or PGs)
But the problem of making structures moving is how marines put they in place again...
Yeah, that's a really limited scope for scenarios. I think it would cause to many headaches just for this. Especially since <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Structure blocking in its exploitive state is pretty much gone. The ability to fortify an area shouldn't be hampered by anti-structure blocking. Instant comm chair/tf blocking should stay gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe we put in rule placements like the ones which keep you from spacing turrets too close together.
Lets say you can have a command chair only every few meters.
<i>Is that going to keep you from placing a comm chair next to a turret factory?</i>
No. Then we have to add another rule which says you can't place the turret factory close to comm chair.
<i>What about armory and observatory and the rest?</i>
Good point. We're going to have to apply a general rule that says you can't place anything within a good meter of another thing.
<i>Ok great. Problem solved... except one thing. Now I have serious space problems building my marine base at marine start. Most maps are designed to allow less space or at least have you spilling out into the hallways with turrets.</i>
Hmm, we're going to have to slightly modify those maps. Call all mappers and make each one painstakingly rearrange their map to allow for more room for marine start and all other potential marine bases to compensate for more spacing.
<6 months later>
<i>Aliens slip through the lines too easy. We can't keep them out and the game is horribly unbalanced.</i>
We're going to need to redo the maps again to account for choke points so that marines can easily defend.
<another 6 months later>
<i>Comm dropped a comm chair in the chokepoint and now it's horribly unbalanced.</i>
...
Let it go. I think any solution you could find would suck. Even keeping it within a distance of a marine would suck, because there's always that possibility that you're comming and almost were able to place a structure down when a marine moved, and so you have to get them to return...
Remove the blocking capabilities of (most of) the rest of the structures (turrets should probably still block, but they're so small, they shouldn't be as much of an issue).
Aliens could create a webbing, and marines could deploy some kind of energy shield generator. Both structures would still be vulnerable to damage and fail after a certain amount (not to mention requiring construction), but this would make flow control an intentional part of the game in the hands of the players rather than an exploit or even a static part of particular environments.
The two wall types could even admit players of the friendly team, if that's advantageous.
There is no problem with the current "ghost structure" system in place. It prevents instant blocking of lifeforms.
Besides, dropping and building a cc is a LOT of effort just to put a permanant block in the alien's way... Note: Gameplay may vary on incredibly packed servers (ie, 22+ players).