<!--quoteo(post=1672198:date=Mar 5 2008, 04:06 PM:name=ZupiCo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZupiCo @ Mar 5 2008, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would have to go with the nay-sayers, why bother being skeptical when you have no reason for being so? Sure, you could question about everything known to man and theorize it could be false, but why do that when everything points to it being true? Seems like wasted energy to me. A better starting point to me would be doubting something when you actually have reason for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Isn't that pretty much how religion works? Everything points to any one religion being true until you question the information you are being asked to believe in.
I don't want to get into a debate over whether religion has merit or not, but there are clearly cases where the (mis)interpretation of a religious text was taken to extreme to form an alibi for unquestionably evil deeds. If more people questioned the 'facts' and 'truths' that have been established for them via training of some sort (training someone to believe in a religion, to believe in a scientific 'fact' like the Earth is flat, to believe that homosexuality is evil, to believe that embezzlement isn't something that 'everybody does', etc., etc.) I genuinely think we'd be in a better place. Sure, someone here is going to say: "But if everyone questions the law there will be anarchy!". The response to this is clear; questioning something is not the same as ignoring or actively disobeying something. Questioning involves seeking information that will satisfy a judgement.
<!--quoteo(post=1672214:date=Mar 5 2008, 08:01 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Mar 5 2008, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that pretty much how religion works? Everything points to any one religion being true until you question the information you are being asked to believe in.
I don't want to get into a debate over whether religion has merit or not, but there are clearly cases where the (mis)interpretation of a religious text was taken to extreme to form an alibi for unquestionably evil deeds. If more people questioned the 'facts' and 'truths' that have been established for them via training of some sort (training someone to believe in a religion, to believe in a scientific 'fact' like the Earth is flat, to believe that homosexuality is evil, to believe that embezzlement isn't something that 'everybody does', etc., etc.) I genuinely think we'd be in a better place. Sure, someone here is going to say: "But if everyone questions the law there will be anarchy!". The response to this is clear; questioning something is not the same as ignoring or actively disobeying something. Questioning involves seeking information that will satisfy a judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, you have a valid point, questioning "facts" is vital for the progress of humanity, but I still think the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not questioning that my parents really are my parents, for example, even though I haven't seen definite proof that points to them being my parents. I just don't have any reason to believe otherwise. If I noticed something indicating otherwise, I would of course investigate it.
I would say that the same policy could be applied to science, religion and what have you. Take the mathematical <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom" target="_blank">axioms</a> for example. If every mathematician would question and try reworking them, mathematics today wouldn't have come very far. We just have to assume that they're true, even though it's just our "common sense" that say so. Einstein had reasons to believe that the fundamentals of physics weren't telling the whole truth before he began working on his theories.
So, I see where you're coming at. I totally agree that facts have to be questioned and even go so far as to say that it's every person's duty to question the facts that they're being taught. There are many reasons to be skeptic about religions, the earth being flat and homosexuality being evil if people would just question the facts like you said. My point though is that there has to be a limit. Take the fire again for example. I was told that fire was hot as a child. I probably questioned that at least once and got burned, enforcing the fact I was told. I hear other people say that fire is hot and I have read in history books that fire was hot in the days of yore. In my opinion it would be a waste of my time and energy questioning the fire's hotness anymore, as all of my "research" points to fire really being hot.
Religion? Stick your hand in a fire and tell me whether it's hot and painful or not! When's the last time you were given proof of God's existence? The comparison is nonsensical. I'm talking about not doubting things that are LUDICROUSLY easy to verify.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
I tell you now - NOTHING will come out of this thread! You will not agree, and no conclusion will be made! Just stop <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1672198:date=Mar 5 2008, 05:06 PM:name=ZupiCo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZupiCo @ Mar 5 2008, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, you could question about everything known to man and theorize it could be false, but why do that when everything points to it being true?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The thing is, skeptical scenarios are <i>perfectly</i> compatible with this evidence.
In my mind skepticism can be used for on the one hand remind you that you're not certain about a bunch of things, heck, that a lot of the things you claim to know seems not all that more certain than things you do not know. Ie. in my mind it's a reminder that one should be somewhat humble with your knowledge. On the other hand, it provides an excellent tool for trying to falsify stuff. Where it not for skepticism (or some degree of it) a lot of things wouldn't have changed.
Finally, it provides a good test for definitions of knowledge, but that's moreso of interest to crazy philosophers. <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Also, it's fun to bugger people with on forums, speaking of which....<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> lolfighter, those X cases are based on your memory, so you'd need to argue that it's reliable/working for your argument to work <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Also, those X cases can only be your own personal ones, how many times have you put your hand in the fire? <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->(Go on! put it in the fire!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Finally, when you infer from it being very hot to it being painful you need to argue for this inference too, perhaps similar to what you're doing here, though I'm not sure it's valid :X <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->(Go on! Put your hand in the fire!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Also, the forum deciding to go on maintinance = >_<. I had just typed a post, went to preview it... *FORUMS DOWN FOR MAINTINANCE*... "ALSO I ATE YOUR POST, TYPE IT AGAIN WHEN I'M BACK UP"
Comments
I don't want to get into a debate over whether religion has merit or not, but there are clearly cases where the (mis)interpretation of a religious text was taken to extreme to form an alibi for unquestionably evil deeds. If more people questioned the 'facts' and 'truths' that have been established for them via training of some sort (training someone to believe in a religion, to believe in a scientific 'fact' like the Earth is flat, to believe that homosexuality is evil, to believe that embezzlement isn't something that 'everybody does', etc., etc.) I genuinely think we'd be in a better place. Sure, someone here is going to say: "But if everyone questions the law there will be anarchy!". The response to this is clear; questioning something is not the same as ignoring or actively disobeying something. Questioning involves seeking information that will satisfy a judgement.
I don't want to get into a debate over whether religion has merit or not, but there are clearly cases where the (mis)interpretation of a religious text was taken to extreme to form an alibi for unquestionably evil deeds. If more people questioned the 'facts' and 'truths' that have been established for them via training of some sort (training someone to believe in a religion, to believe in a scientific 'fact' like the Earth is flat, to believe that homosexuality is evil, to believe that embezzlement isn't something that 'everybody does', etc., etc.) I genuinely think we'd be in a better place. Sure, someone here is going to say: "But if everyone questions the law there will be anarchy!". The response to this is clear; questioning something is not the same as ignoring or actively disobeying something. Questioning involves seeking information that will satisfy a judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, you have a valid point, questioning "facts" is vital for the progress of humanity, but I still think the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not questioning that my parents really are my parents, for example, even though I haven't seen definite proof that points to them being my parents. I just don't have any reason to believe otherwise. If I noticed something indicating otherwise, I would of course investigate it.
I would say that the same policy could be applied to science, religion and what have you. Take the mathematical <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom" target="_blank">axioms</a> for example. If every mathematician would question and try reworking them, mathematics today wouldn't have come very far. We just have to assume that they're true, even though it's just our "common sense" that say so. Einstein had reasons to believe that the fundamentals of physics weren't telling the whole truth before he began working on his theories.
So, I see where you're coming at. I totally agree that facts have to be questioned and even go so far as to say that it's every person's duty to question the facts that they're being taught. There are many reasons to be skeptic about religions, the earth being flat and homosexuality being evil if people would just question the facts like you said. My point though is that there has to be a limit. Take the fire again for example. I was told that fire was hot as a child. I probably questioned that at least once and got burned, enforcing the fact I was told. I hear other people say that fire is hot and I have read in history books that fire was hot in the days of yore. In my opinion it would be a waste of my time and energy questioning the fire's hotness anymore, as all of my "research" points to fire really being hot.
Also, forty two.
In my mind skepticism can be used for on the one hand remind you that you're not certain about a bunch of things, heck, that a lot of the things you claim to know seems not all that more certain than things you do not know. Ie. in my mind it's a reminder that one should be somewhat humble with your knowledge.
On the other hand, it provides an excellent tool for trying to falsify stuff. Where it not for skepticism (or some degree of it) a lot of things wouldn't have changed.
Finally, it provides a good test for definitions of knowledge, but that's moreso of interest to crazy philosophers.
<!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Also, it's fun to bugger people with on forums, speaking of which....<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
lolfighter, those X cases are based on your memory, so you'd need to argue that it's reliable/working for your argument to work <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Also, those X cases can only be your own personal ones, how many times have you put your hand in the fire? <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->(Go on! put it in the fire!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Finally, when you infer from it being very hot to it being painful you need to argue for this inference too, perhaps similar to what you're doing here, though I'm not sure it's valid :X <!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->(Go on! Put your hand in the fire!)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Also, the forum deciding to go on maintinance = >_<. I had just typed a post, went to preview it... *FORUMS DOWN FOR MAINTINANCE*... "ALSO I ATE YOUR POST, TYPE IT AGAIN WHEN I'M BACK UP"