Welding bot + squad spawning system
La Chupacabra
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
<div class="IPBDescription">combination of both</div>This topic is somehow a continuation of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103749&st=0" target="_blank">this thread</a>, but it aims to go in a bit different direction so a new topic has been made to don't disorganize the forums.
As most of us know there will be a welding bot in NS2. Additionally, marines will be automatically assigned into squads and they will also respawn in a squad to give NS a more team-work-oriented feel.
If the welding bot would be designed in a similar way to those flying things in HL2, but faster and with better degree of movement, (the flying bots that were spying on you and flashing you during a fight) they could also bee used for the marine squad spawning system.
<img src="http://www.battleteam.net/tech/fis/docs/images/halflife2_scanner2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As I suspect, commander will be able to assign a welding bot to a squad or the base (around the commander console, it would than look after the buildings). It would fly close to the squad - probably to one person selected by the comm or with better stats, hoping that the rest will stick to him (that could be a thing that holds a squad together - if you split up, you might end up without the help of a bot). If the "team leader" dies, than the welding bot would temporary be assigned to the closest guy, for the time needed for the team leader to return.
I was thinking about making those bots being able to weld only after some upgrades in the armory and make their primary function to respawn marines back to their squads. <b>It would not replace an infantry portal</b> - it would be capable of taking the signal from the IP to respawn a marine outside the base, BUT IP would still be required to make the main transmission from wherever the marines are coming from. There are two ways of doing it: the marine would be simply teleported under the bot, which would participate in the teleporation showing off some high-tech, flashy electronics OR the bot would fly down onto the floor (making it easier to destroy during respawn) and a marine would be teleported on top of it. It would require some cash to build one, so squad respawning would come at a cost. More than one of those could be assigned to a squad. The good side of it is that the marines would not be able to respawn at the place of the battle all the time since it is simply overpowering. Hive rush last usually until the hive is dead or the PG is down, with constant reinforcements on the marine side the fight is uneven, since aliens don't have such an option.
Additionally, an welding-respawn bot (let's call it WRB for now) would have 3 or 4 point-lights (like a marine flash-light), which would slowly change their position and shine randomly around the place (with the beam of light visible a bit) making it simply to look cooler, especially in dark places (you probably have seen this type of thing in movie or sth). To give the lights more sens it could turn half / one of it lights in the direction of its movement (with small and random alternation to the angle, but generally in one direction).
The lights could be used to help new players! Every res node, weldable device, alien structure and other point of interest would be highlighted more often than other places.
The WRB could be implemented into the tech tree, so it can be upgradeable:
- respawn abilities (available from the very beginning)
- welding - after an upgrade
- respawn with equipment (IF the equipment will be still assigned by the comm in NS2) - after an upgrade
Optionally, but I'm not sure if it's needed, it could make the game less "magical". Some people don't like the idea of nano-magic which causes the medpack/ammo etc. to be dropped. It could be made so the comm selects who he want to give ammo / med and the WRBs would deliver it by teleporting it onto the marine, it would be good to prevent med-spam, because it would take a second or two for the WRB to fly over to the marine in need. Oh, and welding could be activated by the in-game menu rather than having the weld bot to weld everyone by itself, because it would be also overpowering that a marine could be chopped by a skulk and welded at the same time.
Other things could be easily assigned to WRB - scan, motion tracking etc (don't believe it's needed, though)
To counter the WRB effects and make a lerk better at mid- and late-game (who would be probably responsible for taking care of WRBs since he can fly all the time and skulks would be able to destroy WRB effectively only with leap) umbra could be changed that apart from damage reducing function it would make the WRB to malfunction - fly slower, have its action delayed by 1 or 2 seconds, cause it to fly away a bit from the epicenter of umbra or maybe even fall down on the floor if being effected for too long or sth along these lines.
After all the marines are dead the WRB would start to fly back to base / the marine it was assigned to, but since it would fly only at a bit faster speed than a marine a lerk or skulk with leap (or a high fade / onos) could simply run up to it and destroy it.
Any suggestions, thoughts?
As most of us know there will be a welding bot in NS2. Additionally, marines will be automatically assigned into squads and they will also respawn in a squad to give NS a more team-work-oriented feel.
If the welding bot would be designed in a similar way to those flying things in HL2, but faster and with better degree of movement, (the flying bots that were spying on you and flashing you during a fight) they could also bee used for the marine squad spawning system.
<img src="http://www.battleteam.net/tech/fis/docs/images/halflife2_scanner2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As I suspect, commander will be able to assign a welding bot to a squad or the base (around the commander console, it would than look after the buildings). It would fly close to the squad - probably to one person selected by the comm or with better stats, hoping that the rest will stick to him (that could be a thing that holds a squad together - if you split up, you might end up without the help of a bot). If the "team leader" dies, than the welding bot would temporary be assigned to the closest guy, for the time needed for the team leader to return.
I was thinking about making those bots being able to weld only after some upgrades in the armory and make their primary function to respawn marines back to their squads. <b>It would not replace an infantry portal</b> - it would be capable of taking the signal from the IP to respawn a marine outside the base, BUT IP would still be required to make the main transmission from wherever the marines are coming from. There are two ways of doing it: the marine would be simply teleported under the bot, which would participate in the teleporation showing off some high-tech, flashy electronics OR the bot would fly down onto the floor (making it easier to destroy during respawn) and a marine would be teleported on top of it. It would require some cash to build one, so squad respawning would come at a cost. More than one of those could be assigned to a squad. The good side of it is that the marines would not be able to respawn at the place of the battle all the time since it is simply overpowering. Hive rush last usually until the hive is dead or the PG is down, with constant reinforcements on the marine side the fight is uneven, since aliens don't have such an option.
Additionally, an welding-respawn bot (let's call it WRB for now) would have 3 or 4 point-lights (like a marine flash-light), which would slowly change their position and shine randomly around the place (with the beam of light visible a bit) making it simply to look cooler, especially in dark places (you probably have seen this type of thing in movie or sth). To give the lights more sens it could turn half / one of it lights in the direction of its movement (with small and random alternation to the angle, but generally in one direction).
The lights could be used to help new players! Every res node, weldable device, alien structure and other point of interest would be highlighted more often than other places.
The WRB could be implemented into the tech tree, so it can be upgradeable:
- respawn abilities (available from the very beginning)
- welding - after an upgrade
- respawn with equipment (IF the equipment will be still assigned by the comm in NS2) - after an upgrade
Optionally, but I'm not sure if it's needed, it could make the game less "magical". Some people don't like the idea of nano-magic which causes the medpack/ammo etc. to be dropped. It could be made so the comm selects who he want to give ammo / med and the WRBs would deliver it by teleporting it onto the marine, it would be good to prevent med-spam, because it would take a second or two for the WRB to fly over to the marine in need. Oh, and welding could be activated by the in-game menu rather than having the weld bot to weld everyone by itself, because it would be also overpowering that a marine could be chopped by a skulk and welded at the same time.
Other things could be easily assigned to WRB - scan, motion tracking etc (don't believe it's needed, though)
To counter the WRB effects and make a lerk better at mid- and late-game (who would be probably responsible for taking care of WRBs since he can fly all the time and skulks would be able to destroy WRB effectively only with leap) umbra could be changed that apart from damage reducing function it would make the WRB to malfunction - fly slower, have its action delayed by 1 or 2 seconds, cause it to fly away a bit from the epicenter of umbra or maybe even fall down on the floor if being effected for too long or sth along these lines.
After all the marines are dead the WRB would start to fly back to base / the marine it was assigned to, but since it would fly only at a bit faster speed than a marine a lerk or skulk with leap (or a high fade / onos) could simply run up to it and destroy it.
Any suggestions, thoughts?
Comments
As I suspect, commander will be able to assign a welding bot to a squad or the base (around the commander console, it would than look after the buildings). It would fly close to the squad - probably to one person selected by the comm or with better stats, hoping that the rest will stick to him (that could be a thing that holds a squad together - if you split up, you might end up without the help of a bot). If the "team leader" dies, than the welding bot would temporary be assigned to the closest guy, for the time needed for the team leader to return.
I was thinking about making those bots being able to weld only after some upgrades in the armory and make their primary function to respawn marines back to their squads. <b>It would not replace an infantry portal</b>, an IP would still be required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good ideas, well thought out; I vote Yes. Maybe the welding upgrade could be implemented by dropping a welder on it, to keep things simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1672345:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lights could be used to help new players! Every res node, weldable device, alien structure and other point of interest would be highlighted more often than other places.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, neat idea. I like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1672345:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- respawn with equipment (IF the equipment will be still assigned by the comm in NS2) - after an upgrade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea just keeps getting better <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1672345:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other things could be easily assigned to WRB - scan, motion tracking etc (don't believe it's needed, though)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good possibility, don't know if it's needed as you said.
<!--quoteo(post=1672345:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To counter the WRB effects and make a lerk better at mid- and late-game (who would be probably responsible for taking care of WRBs since he can fly all the time and skulks would be able to destroy WRB effectively only with leap) umbra could be changed that apart from damage reducing function it would make the WRB to malfunction - fly slower, have its action delayed by 1 or 2 seconds, cause it to fly away a bit from the epicenter of umbra or maybe even fall down on the floor if being effected for too long or sth along these lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe just have it be effected by gas, or have the gorge spit also have a disrupting effect. Early kharaa should have answers for this thing if it's available from the start.
<!--quoteo(post=1672345:date=Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Mar 6 2008, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After all the marines are dead the WRB would start to fly back to base / the marine it was assigned to, but since it would fly only at a bit faster speed than a marine a lerk or skulk with leap (or a high fade / onos) could simply run up to it and destroy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if it should go faster than a skulk or lerk, depends how sturdy/expensive it is. Balancing like that can always be worked out during PT anyway.
That's what I meant, but I didn't manage to explain it properly, it was supposed to sound like this:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After all the marines are dead the WRB would start to fly back to base / the marine it was assigned to. It would fly only at a bit faster speed than a marine (so it's easier for it to keep up with the squad), but slow enough for alien life form to simply fly/run up to it and destroy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm happy you like it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Here is a nice benefit to putting bad things on the weld bot, you're not doing it to a player. I have noticed we are all pretty well agreed that screwing with the player is frustrating, but giving that bot a limp? Oh well, weld it or whatever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Rally around the bot! Get that lerk, covering fire!
Very cool ideas, they inspire me with hope for some very fun gameplay in NS2.
Yep. I would insist only on the repair and respawn functions. Anything else is an option to consider. A different approach is to make more types of bots with more specific functions... but that would just add more to the game complexity and make the marines feel as if were on an airport.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the welding upgrade could be implemented by dropping a welder on it, to keep things simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have got the impression that the devs are trying to make comm have less tasks that require him to point-click on an object or player (like giving out weapons to marines by clicking on them), so that'a a bit against it. But it's a really good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe just have it be effected by gas, or have the gorge spit also have a disrupting effect. Early kharaa should have answers for this thing if it's available from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to with you about the gas. Every alien projectile could have a disrupting effect. Maybe only parasite could not deal damage, but still would be able to disrupt it a bit, maybe by making it loose it's hight to hip-level.
I was thinking recently on more specific aspects of the WRB, I'm not completely sure about those, it's nothing new - it's just a way of implementing things that would have to work somehow anyway:
> welding \ supply: the bot could use his lights to weld and supply functions and any other that require direct contact with the player. The lights would change color and become narrower to the degree of a laser or other very concentrated beam of light. When two rays / light beams would meet on the player it would start to weld / translocate a med or ammo etc.
- the WRB would not have to fly directly up to the player (a radius of a meter or two could be in place), marine would be allowed to move a little (but inside the radius mentioned), might be a bit too advantageous for the marines
- resolves some potential marine-bot blocking issues
> bot AI issues: I don't know how well would the AI of the HL2 spy-bot work and don't know how much time the devs would like to spend to tweak it (probably the shorter the better). Maybe making it faster than the HL2 thing and with greater turning angle would be enough for it to follow the marines properly and maneuver with ease in vents etc. but if not, a different mechanism of bringing it back to the squad would be needed. The simplest way would be to make it teleport if stuck somewhere very badly (if outside a X meter range from the marine of interest for X seconds or so). It's not the brightest way I agree, hopefully the AI would be good enough so it wouldn't happen too often. We already have meds and ammo spawning from nowhere so it not that bad I think.. and simple!
With less mass and more thrust, a bot would be really quite good at following.
Couple suggestions I would make:
1: No respawn. If it was single player, or players versus NPC Kharaa, then sure, but otherwise it makes a super-squad that you cannot even whittle down because they just spawn back in.
2: No friendly clipping. I'm sure the bot will work fine 98% of the time, but do YOU want to be stuck behind the bot in a vent while a skulk chews on your butt and the bot decides it wants to do something stupid for a while? The alien team should clip on it though, since that'll make it easier to hit.
3: Maybe let leaping skulks knock it to the ground for a few seconds, during which time it can be chewed on. Let lerks latch on and chew away as well, and give every alien class a way of destroying the bot one-on-one. But don't make it EASY, give the bot some self-repair while it's in "normal" and give it a decent amount of armor so that a squad can shoot the offending alien while it's busy chewing on their bot. Hard to assassinate, easy to kill solo.
I would say make it ground based, but that would make pathing FAR too hard, so hover is a good compromise.
Squad respawning is something the devs are considering according to the podcasts. I think that the squad respawn should be limited in terms of charges so the bot has to be recharge at base or through being welded by an external source. Maybe give the bot an energy bar like the obs that's its ammo for welding and spawning.
1: No respawn. If it was single player, or players versus NPC Kharaa, then sure, but otherwise it makes a super-squad that you cannot even whittle down because they just spawn back in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not happy about the squad spawning thing neither. I'm just suggesting how it could work, although I don't like the main idea really ;P Hopefully with that way of implementing it would not be that overpowering, because it could be stopped when the bots are destroyed. It would also add a bit more to the alien defensive tactics if the bots would be crucial for squad respawn.
Maybe it could be made so a player needs to wait twice as long to be respawned by the bot than to the base? Taking into account that the player can choose where he wants to be respawned.
<!--quoteo(post=1672477:date=Mar 7 2008, 06:41 PM:name=EvilSmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EvilSmoo @ Mar 7 2008, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: No friendly clipping. I'm sure the bot will work fine 98% of the time, but do YOU want to be stuck behind the bot in a vent while a skulk chews on your butt and the bot decides it wants to do something stupid for a while? The alien team should clip on it though, since that'll make it easier to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, but we need to remember that the Bot follows it's squad, not the other way around. So the bot would fly into the vent behind a squad, not in front of it. But yes - there is still a possibility a squad would retreat. For that kind of situation we can make the bot fly the other way every time when you press Use Button on it or simply push it by moving onto it. Additionally it could automatically keep it's distance of at least 2 or 3 meters from the marines when not doing anything specific (like welding), so whenever a marine would be retreating in a vent, the bot would fly away from him to keep it's distance...
A different approach (than can be used on top of everything I have just written) is that mappers could take that issue into account and make wider vents (to fit 2 crouching marines) in NS2 - as it is now with doors / hallways and Onos, which has a much bigger hit-boxes and therefore the doors on every NS map can not have its size below certain limits.
I guess it's nice that it would drag unconscious players around in groups, but not only does it homogenize the two sides of play by equipping marines with what is essentially regeneration (which is an argument that I guess could be made against the weld bot as well) it really linearalizes the gameplay into what is essentially <i>follow the leader</i> with guns. I guess it could be worth playtesting but if it ends up coming out at all like what I'm seeing in my head, I'd rather see NS2 a great deal more open-ended.
Well, in my head you don't follow it, it follows you. Sort of like a Soviet Russia weldbot. The idea of pointing stuff out may turn out to be distracting and unnecessary, but it would be completely ignorable by good players.
Also I'm starting to think the weldbot should be completely no-clip wrt players and invincible and so should "glowies". In terms of gameplay it makes things simpler because players don't want to have to babysit these things.
Either that or they should be very numerous and small with little life. These bots would float around squads like the glowies do around hives and can be expended on different things.
He said <i>follow the leader</i>.
In the idea, the weldbot follows the leader of the squad.
Then everyone else follows the leader too. So yes, you are, as a squad, always following someone - the leader with the weldbot.
<!--quoteo(post=1672507:date=Mar 8 2008, 05:37 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 8 2008, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I'm starting to think the weldbot should be completely no-clip wrt players and invincible and so should "glowies". In terms of gameplay it makes things simpler because players don't want to have to babysit these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
but i think thats only disrupt is not good
a single bite from a skulk and it should be destroyed (no clip jes )
its weird for a fade that the marines hes killed spawn after 2 seconds again on the same place
it would happen if the fade would leave the other squad members alive, if all of the marines would be killed the WRB would come back to base
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103749&st=0" target="_blank"><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->If anyone is unhappy about the squad spawning system and would like to show his disagreement then please post it in the correct thread! <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></a>
In this topic we are discussing one of the ways of implementing the marine squad spawning system, not whether we like the system or not.
but that go in the other thread
In the idea, the weldbot follows the leader of the squad.
Then everyone else follows the leader too. So yes, you are, as a squad, always following someone - the leader with the weldbot.
Agreed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well "follow the leader" is the name of the game and this is a topic about weldbots so it didn't click in my head that he literally meant follow the leader. That said your interpretation makes more sense and is probably correct. I don't think it would really become a "follow the leader" derivative style of gameplay though. You still need people to scout ahead and cover the rear. It would really just help encourage NS2Players to actually stay with their squad IMO.
People may not want to babysit, but it makes the game more fun. People may not want to start at level 1 in a RPG, but they do. If nobody wants to start at level one, then why don't the devs make everyone start at the top level with all equipment?
Why is Star Craft more popular than SupCom? Why is it the most popular RTS of all time?
I hope you got the point.
Why is Star Craft more popular than SupCom?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why I included the second option:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either that or they should be very numerous and small with little life. These bots would float around squads like the glowies do around hives and can be expended on different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This implementation is punishing on hardware though. If these bots are expected to service a squad and there can only a be a small number of them then their usefulness drops dramatically unless they're lower risk. Otherwise it's likely they'll go the way of the babbler, a novel but flawed feature due to hardware limitations.
low health
follow leader
weld teammates in reach automatic
make squadspawning possible
whit upgrade a ammo dispender ( need to use manualy )
if destroyed respawn at marine start/CC after 40 seconds