I solely disagree with restricting a player to join ANY server by via any developer made skill system. It really is not the developers job to act as a first line server admin. It is the job of the server admins to act as server admins. I firmly believe its the developers responsibility to create and balance the game as they see fit. Balancing the players is an impossible deed, regardless of whatever broken ranking system is created.
Stacking is generally NOT a problem on well admined servers, on poorly admined ones it is. It is up to the user to decide whether or not to continue to play on a server they feel they are not having fun on.
The Reserve slot system that is popular amongst many server communities can be used with the Source Engine. I'd say allow the admins to restrict whoever is on the server with OUT a ranking system given the amount of biases that exist within it.
I'd like to reiterate it is NOT the developers job to police servers, it is the administrators and operator's job.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited April 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1674918:date=Apr 3 2008, 09:21 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Apr 3 2008, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm amazed how a thread that basically means "I want to be leet without effort" ended up discussing skill matchmaking and auto balancing teams..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a sign of a good forum IMO. It's like the ultimate test: I'll post something that goes completely against a core feature of the game, now make it work and add to the game instead of detract.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Personally I wouldn't mind server tags (set by the admins) that classify servers as advanced, normal, or beginner-level servers. Then, the player can make the decision about which of these servers to join from the server list.
However, making a stat system that can be easily broken to substitute for administration in not a good idea. I just think the developers can spend their time doing better things.
Easily broken? Broken how? And of course it's no substitute for good admins, of course, but not every server is regularly admin'ed. This does NOT replace admins; I don't understand how you can even come to such a conclusion.
<!--quoteo(post=1674931:date=Apr 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a sign of a good forum IMO. It's like the ultimate test: I'll post something that goes completely against a core feature of the game, now make it work and add to the game instead of detract.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So people complaining that they suck at the game and that skulks should be replaced with magical ponies with laserbeams is a good thing? The topic has been totally warped out of context, and unfortunately it seems to have taken the whole forum with it.
If server ranking actually went ahead, whats to stop 'leet' players from just joining and totally molesting the noobs in a noob server? I'm sure they couldn't restrict people from joining a lower skill server because they are simply 'too good'. If they could though, it would do NOTHING WHATSOEVER for the game and/or the community because all you are doing is labeling groups of people as either 'crap' or 'good'. The crap players would stay crap (due to the fact that they have NO IDEA how to become better because they are playing with equally crap players), and the better players would become better (because naturally thats how they got there in the first place).
Are things like this actually that hard to foresee or must we have 4 page threads on every topic just because we can ramble on about pointless crap?
I guess if you had little graphical tags next to servers in steam (like the "locked" icon), it wouldn't be as important to force extremely new or extremely advanced players into appropriate servers.
The main goal I had in mind was to keep prohibitively large skill gaps apart, but I suppose it doesn't really matter if there's a warning "you will be fragged repeatedly here", since smart people will avoid it, and everyone else will get banned.
EDIT: If you wanted a happy medium you could create a stat system like the one I suggested <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104048" target="_blank">:here:</a> and allow a mouseover to show how difficult the server is according to those stats, that way instead of being a hard lock, it would just be another indicator that smart people could look at and say "this is my level" or alternately "I'm just gonna get banned" whether it be for griefing, or playing with extreme ineptitude.
I'd hope that most of the advanced servers would have a little patience with slightly green players though. I've always enjoyed the opportunity to improve, and I would hate to see this become an excuse for truly elitist admins to ban new players prematurely without giving them an opportunity to advance against better players.
I would support a developer-created reserve slot system. One of the things that establishes homeostasis is priority server memberships. Its a nice thing to have when you get a reserve slot. It also gives the admins a more favorable way to maintain the sort of player base they want on their server.
Back in the day when NS was still popular, say 1-2 years ago, there were popular, well-admined servers with reserve slot systems, and they worked very, very well. Most games were 'good' games, and if you had a reserve slot and could get on at prime time when regs were on, there would be no noobs and even the very best players were challenged. It was awesome. During non-primetime, with fewer regulars available, the server was noob-friendly, admins would monitor balancing, and life was good. There was also a vet server, and noobs would get the boot or just leave; the skill level there was even higher. There was a slight problem with emptying, but that's mostly because of the small population of 'vet' level players. But if you thought emptying was ever bad before, implement a ranking system. Heh.
It seems to me as though this argument about developer systems for rank-based server restriction and balancing has two sides, represented by those who experienced good server management first-hand and are against it, and those who have not.
A good example of the reserve slot system can be seen at Tactical Gamer-NS forums. They have threads there explaining all the details about how it works. Now I haven't played there for a while so I don't know if that server is even still up and if it is, if it has enough players/admins for the system to work. But take a looksee for their rules: <a href="http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-official-rules-announcements/" target="_blank">Tactical Gamer Natural Selection Rules</a>
2 servers that I can think of now that had the best reserve slot system were the Hamptons and NSArmslab.
Granted Armslab ran large servers, but the games on those servers ran very well (most of the time), they also established a veteran server for the competitive community which was very enjoyable.
The hamptons was a great server because anyone who competed in CAL got a reserve slot, or if a non reserve member proved his/her worth they could earn one as well. There were times that lesser skilled players came on, some enjoyed the experience, some did not.
As of right now the only NS server worth playing on in my opinion is the YO clan server, they have an effective reserve slot system up as well.
Basically how most reserve slots work is that the server always keeps one slot free for kicking. A reserve slot member that connects will boot another non-RS member out, with a kick message usually explaining why they were kicked. This gave people who had reserve slot the privledge of joining any game regardless whether it was "full " or not.
A Reserve slot system would be providing the tools necessary to regulate a specific clientèle of players the administrators want on their server. Looking at this as well, giving the admins the ability to "rank" their own server (Competitive, casual, or open) using the server icons is a pretty good idea. Server admins can warn players through that icon to tell other players what they expect of them.
The only problem with the reserve slot system that I hope they fix, is that the servers "look" like they have spaces left, untill you try to join, so you could go through like 3-4 servers which you try to join and it wotn let you. And when you join a server, you might have no idea there is a reserve slot system in effect, untill you just get kicked all of a sudden. I have no problems with reserve slot system, as long as its clear to those looking for a server to join.
Yeah I agree with that point. If the system was built in, the devs could definitely show a number in paranthesis to indicate the number of reserve slots and what type of slot it is.
It was frustrating to figure out if a server had reserve slots or not.
I've seen servers with reserved slots that would not prevent players from joining the server when fewer than the maximum number of players were present. Meaning, if the server limit published in the server list was 24 and the reserved slots were used after the server was already full, the server would be shown as having 26 out of 24 people playing.
Of course, you could also just have a system where people with reserved slots can displace those without when joining a full server, but that causes a different annoyance.
Partially addressed by myself <a href='index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675218'>here</a> and relevant to this discussion also.
I am very much in favour of reserve slots, however I would be wary of them as a solution to Elitist Gaming. RSlots work when there are many servers to choose from, or when servers have communities that are friendly to new players. It would be very unfortunate if the community degenerated into a handful of servers, dominated by insular communities, that do not welcome new players (Allegiance tread a thin line in this area).
Back to the topic at hand, I do think that it would be advantageous if servers could tell a player what their chance of being kicked was. If nothing else, it helps prevent player frustration at being kicked from a game just as it is getting good.
Anyone suggest how that should operate? Perhaps an estimate from number of RSlotters usually on at that time against the number logged in at the moment? Should give a fair guess, though you could always skew it on the side of caution (ie give or take 25%). No?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1675130:date=Apr 6 2008, 09:59 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Apr 6 2008, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems to me as though this argument about developer systems for rank-based server restriction and balancing has two sides, represented by those who experienced good server management first-hand and are against it, and those who have not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have played with some good communities in the past and I'm not against these systems because they are not meant to replace admins, but help them.
Since this is my first post here AND I too have play NS for 3+yrs I sincerely hope that the development team listens. I have played NS for its UNIQUE ability to provide TEAMWORK and INDIVIDUAL skill. For a player to have the ability to improve his/her game from learning is perfect. No improvement needed. For a player to best others from altering original basic programing is WRONG. I am not the average gamer. I didn't even own a computer until 3+ yrs ago. I bought one because of THIS game. I PLAY IT DAILY. However, I didn't use the forums because I didnt know that they existed. I really don't need or want to be in a clan/community. So it took me about 1 1/2yrs to even figure out wtf a SCRIPT was and around 2 before someone informed me of basic information like cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate, fps_max so and so forth. About 1yr ago someone turned me onto the knife gaming pack. Although I realize NOW that most of this is a simple tweak to the game I was forever raging because of "better players". ( bull######) Just because someone readily understands how tweak the game to PERFECTION does not mean they are the better player. It does mean they know a hell of alot about the game and there pc/video card. Oh did i forget to mention macros? If this is still an option in NS2 I believe Unknown Worlds should ultimately be responsible for making sure ALL the "improvements" be readily known all, accessible and easy to comprehend. Since this topic started with less elitist game play plz. I think helping the new guy to improve his understanding of the game is the best solution. This game is best remember and best felt when a coordinated attack/defensive posture is assumed and successfully accomplished. EVERYONE GETS TO FEELS LIKE THEY CONTRIBUTED. (I'M A HERO) So to put it simply. Its a MULTI-PLAYER GAME NOT A ONE MAN SHOW. Get off the stage l33t others want to sing too. Thanks mac
<!--quoteo(post=1675139:date=Apr 7 2008, 12:26 AM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Apr 7 2008, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically how most reserve slots work is that the server always keeps one slot free for kicking. A reserve slot member that connects will boot another non-RS member out, with a kick message usually explaining why they were kicked. This gave people who had reserve slot the privledge of joining any game regardless whether it was "full " or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh. well I thought it'd work that way, and that it's a bit harsh.
<!--quoteo(post=1675214:date=Apr 7 2008, 07:20 AM:name=DON_MAC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DON_MAC @ Apr 7 2008, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen servers with reserved slots that would not prevent players from joining the server when fewer than the maximum number of players were present. Meaning, if the server limit published in the server list was 24 and the reserved slots were used after the server was already full, the server would be shown as having 26 out of 24 people playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, well that doesn't sound too bad.
Still, I don't see what this has to do with ranked servers, or keeping players playing with their own skill level (most importantly for newer players, or do you disagree?); or rather, giving them a chance at a 'good game'.
I like what this guy's saying: (edited for easier reading?) <!--quoteo(post=1675251:date=Apr 8 2008, 01:35 AM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Apr 8 2008, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since this is my first post here AND I too have played NS for 3+yrs I sincerely hope that the development team listens.
I have played NS for its UNIQUE ability to provide TEAMWORK and INDIVIDUAL skill.
For a player to have the ability to improve his/her game from learning is perfect. (There is no) improvement needed. For a player to best others through altering original basic programming is WRONG.
I am not the average gamer. I didn't even own a computer until 3+ yrs ago. I bought one because of THIS game. I PLAY IT DAILY. However, I didn't use the forums because I didnt know that they existed. I really don't need or want to be in a clan/community.
So it took me about 1 1/2yrs to even figure out wtf a SCRIPT was and around 2 before someone informed me of basic information like cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate, fps_max so and so forth. About 1yr ago someone turned me onto the knife gaming pack. Although I realize NOW that most of these are simple tweaks to the game, (at the time) I was forever raging because of "better players". (bull######) Just because someone readily understands how (to) tweak the game to PERFECTION does not mean (that) they are the better player. It does mean they know a hell of alot about the game and their pc/video card. Oh did I forget to mention macros? If this is still an option in NS2 I believe Unknown Worlds should ultimately be responsible for making sure ALL the "improvements" be readily known to all, (easily) accessible and easy to comprehend.
This topic started with "less elitist game play plz". (But) I think helping the new guy to improve his understanding of the game is the best solution. This game is best remembered and best felt when a coordinated attack/defensive posture is assumed and successfully accomplished. EVERYONE GETS TO FEELS LIKE THEY'VE CONTRIBUTED. ("I'M A HERO")
So to put it simply. Its a MULTI-PLAYER GAME NOT A ONE MAN SHOW. Get off the stage l33t, others want to sing too.
Thanks, mac<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->(yes, I'm a bit of a grammar nazi. just a bit)
Comments
Stacking is generally NOT a problem on well admined servers, on poorly admined ones it is. It is up to the user to decide whether or not to continue to play on a server they feel they are not having fun on.
The Reserve slot system that is popular amongst many server communities can be used with the Source Engine. I'd say allow the admins to restrict whoever is on the server with OUT a ranking system given the amount of biases that exist within it.
I'd like to reiterate it is NOT the developers job to police servers, it is the administrators and operator's job.
That's a sign of a good forum IMO. It's like the ultimate test: I'll post something that goes completely against a core feature of the game, now make it work and add to the game instead of detract.
However, making a stat system that can be easily broken to substitute for administration in not a good idea. I just think the developers can spend their time doing better things.
And of course it's no substitute for good admins, of course, but not every server is regularly admin'ed. This does NOT replace admins; I don't understand how you can even come to such a conclusion.
So people complaining that they suck at the game and that skulks should be replaced with magical ponies with laserbeams is a good thing? The topic has been totally warped out of context, and unfortunately it seems to have taken the whole forum with it.
If server ranking actually went ahead, whats to stop 'leet' players from just joining and totally molesting the noobs in a noob server? I'm sure they couldn't restrict people from joining a lower skill server because they are simply 'too good'. If they could though, it would do NOTHING WHATSOEVER for the game and/or the community because all you are doing is labeling groups of people as either 'crap' or 'good'. The crap players would stay crap (due to the fact that they have NO IDEA how to become better because they are playing with equally crap players), and the better players would become better (because naturally thats how they got there in the first place).
Are things like this actually that hard to foresee or must we have 4 page threads on every topic just because we can ramble on about pointless crap?
The main goal I had in mind was to keep prohibitively large skill gaps apart, but I suppose it doesn't really matter if there's a warning "you will be fragged repeatedly here", since smart people will avoid it, and everyone else will get banned.
EDIT: If you wanted a happy medium you could create a stat system like the one I suggested <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104048" target="_blank">:here:</a> and allow a mouseover to show how difficult the server is according to those stats, that way instead of being a hard lock, it would just be another indicator that smart people could look at and say "this is my level" or alternately "I'm just gonna get banned" whether it be for griefing, or playing with extreme ineptitude.
I'd hope that most of the advanced servers would have a little patience with slightly green players though. I've always enjoyed the opportunity to improve, and I would hate to see this become an excuse for truly elitist admins to ban new players prematurely without giving them an opportunity to advance against better players.
It seems to me as though this argument about developer systems for rank-based server restriction and balancing has two sides, represented by those who experienced good server management first-hand and are against it, and those who have not.
A good example of the reserve slot system can be seen at Tactical Gamer-NS forums. They have threads there explaining all the details about how it works. Now I haven't played there for a while so I don't know if that server is even still up and if it is, if it has enough players/admins for the system to work. But take a looksee for their rules: <a href="http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-official-rules-announcements/" target="_blank">Tactical Gamer Natural Selection Rules</a>
Granted Armslab ran large servers, but the games on those servers ran very well (most of the time), they also established a veteran server for the competitive community which was very enjoyable.
The hamptons was a great server because anyone who competed in CAL got a reserve slot, or if a non reserve member proved his/her worth they could earn one as well. There were times that lesser skilled players came on, some enjoyed the experience, some did not.
As of right now the only NS server worth playing on in my opinion is the YO clan server, they have an effective reserve slot system up as well.
Basically how most reserve slots work is that the server always keeps one slot free for kicking. A reserve slot member that connects will boot another non-RS member out, with a kick message usually explaining why they were kicked. This gave people who had reserve slot the privledge of joining any game regardless whether it was "full " or not.
A Reserve slot system would be providing the tools necessary to regulate a specific clientèle of players the administrators want on their server. Looking at this as well, giving the admins the ability to "rank" their own server (Competitive, casual, or open) using the server icons is a pretty good idea. Server admins can warn players through that icon to tell other players what they expect of them.
It was frustrating to figure out if a server had reserve slots or not.
Of course, you could also just have a system where people with reserved slots can displace those without when joining a full server, but that causes a different annoyance.
I am very much in favour of reserve slots, however I would be wary of them as a solution to Elitist Gaming. RSlots work when there are many servers to choose from, or when servers have communities that are friendly to new players. It would be very unfortunate if the community degenerated into a handful of servers, dominated by insular communities, that do not welcome new players (Allegiance tread a thin line in this area).
Back to the topic at hand, I do think that it would be advantageous if servers could tell a player what their chance of being kicked was. If nothing else, it helps prevent player frustration at being kicked from a game just as it is getting good.
Anyone suggest how that should operate? Perhaps an estimate from number of RSlotters usually on at that time against the number logged in at the moment? Should give a fair guess, though you could always skew it on the side of caution (ie give or take 25%). No?
EDIT - Fixed link, d'oh.
I have played with some good communities in the past and I'm not against these systems because they are not meant to replace admins, but help them.
Eh. well I thought it'd work that way, and that it's a bit harsh.
<!--quoteo(post=1675214:date=Apr 7 2008, 07:20 AM:name=DON_MAC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DON_MAC @ Apr 7 2008, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen servers with reserved slots that would not prevent players from joining the server when fewer than the maximum number of players were present. Meaning, if the server limit published in the server list was 24 and the reserved slots were used after the server was already full, the server would be shown as having 26 out of 24 people playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, well that doesn't sound too bad.
Still, I don't see what this has to do with ranked servers, or keeping players playing with their own skill level (most importantly for newer players, or do you disagree?); or rather, giving them a chance at a 'good game'.
I like what this guy's saying: (edited for easier reading?)
<!--quoteo(post=1675251:date=Apr 8 2008, 01:35 AM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Apr 8 2008, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since this is my first post here AND I too have played NS for 3+yrs I sincerely hope that the development team listens.
I have played NS for its UNIQUE ability to provide TEAMWORK and INDIVIDUAL skill.
For a player to have the ability to improve his/her game from learning is perfect. (There is no) improvement needed.
For a player to best others through altering original basic programming is WRONG.
I am not the average gamer. I didn't even own a computer until 3+ yrs ago.
I bought one because of THIS game. I PLAY IT DAILY.
However, I didn't use the forums because I didnt know that they existed. I really don't need or want to be in a clan/community.
So it took me about 1 1/2yrs to even figure out wtf a SCRIPT was and around 2 before someone informed me of basic information like cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate, fps_max so and so forth.
About 1yr ago someone turned me onto the knife gaming pack.
Although I realize NOW that most of these are simple tweaks to the game, (at the time) I was forever raging because of "better players". (bull######)
Just because someone readily understands how (to) tweak the game to PERFECTION does not mean (that) they are the better player.
It does mean they know a hell of alot about the game and their pc/video card.
Oh did I forget to mention macros? If this is still an option in NS2 I believe Unknown Worlds should ultimately be responsible for making sure ALL the "improvements" be readily known to all, (easily) accessible and easy to comprehend.
This topic started with "less elitist game play plz". (But) I think helping the new guy to improve his understanding of the game is the best solution. This game is best remembered and best felt when a coordinated attack/defensive posture is assumed and successfully accomplished.
EVERYONE GETS TO FEELS LIKE THEY'VE CONTRIBUTED. ("I'M A HERO")
So to put it simply. Its a MULTI-PLAYER GAME NOT A ONE MAN SHOW. Get off the stage l33t, others want to sing too.
Thanks,
mac<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->(yes, I'm a bit of a grammar nazi. just a bit)