Dumbing down games gets you nowhere
aNytiMe
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=59068" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...?topic_id=59068</a>
Good read. Especially the part about how if SC3/SC4 continues on this trend, SC5 is going to play itself with 0 input from the player.
(For the players that would like commanding dumbed down in NS2, as if NS1 commanding isn't boring enough as it is)
Good read. Especially the part about how if SC3/SC4 continues on this trend, SC5 is going to play itself with 0 input from the player.
(For the players that would like commanding dumbed down in NS2, as if NS1 commanding isn't boring enough as it is)
Comments
good read though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
More depth -yesplease.
More difficult to get starter -no.
Listening out for baserushes, RTs and skulk movement is a good example of comm actions that aren't necessary for newbies, but surely help later on.
I'm the type who generally commands every third game, and i've been doing that for four years. I think its at the perfect spot between over- and under-complexity, and yes, there is already a shortage of decent comms (hence why there's hardly a fuss for me to comm so much).
If you ever have a moment or even periods while commanding where you feel there is 'nothing to do', then that means you are lacking in commanding skills and are missing out on many things that require your attention.
How so?
(examples)
Not having enough things to do cuts in at about when I find myself listening to aliens through fog of war or following marines on my screen when they are out of combat.
examples of micro you can add would include commander "special abilities"
macro would include building units (weld bots, mobile siege tanks etc..), buildings, upgrades and economy
Good read. Especially the part about how if SC3/SC4 continues on this trend, SC5 is going to play itself with 0 input from the player.
(For the players that would like commanding dumbed down in NS2, as if NS1 commanding isn't boring enough as it is)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't find any of the replies to be as well thought out as the first post. Saying SC5 will require 0 player input is the worst kind of slippery slope. Other people reduced his argument to saying "MBS reduces micro but attracts new players" which is correct on the surface but does not take into account the full nuance.
The real topic of his post, which I agree with, was to not artificially limit the player either by oversimplifing things or requiring extraneous button presses. IMO, if MBS is the standard, removing it is silly. However, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be added in such a way that units magically pop out of the factory you want without manually selecting it. This would require the same number of key strokes as before.
I find I only have time for this at the very beginning of a round, and not too often at that. With a comp-standard 5 marine team, yeah, there is a lot more option for dead time, but the higher intensity usually means the comm needs to be that much more focused on every little detail. But with a pub-standard 8-14 marine team, there's so much more going on. I'm always giving verbals AS WELL AS waypoint orders to marines; if you're quick and putting in actual effort, you can give waypoints for every order as fast as you can speak them. And newbies definitely appreciate it, while vets get the visual reinforcement of the order (and hence are possibly more likely to follow it, as we all know many vets are reluctant to not do what they want, or at the extreme, even have chat and voice disabled).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->examples of micro you can add would include commander "special abilities"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meds, ammo and catpacks.
Meds can keep a marine alive indefinitely. They're a waste when the marine will be receiving an extra bite immediately, but when used well medpacks almost always mean the difference of winning a battle. Since marines get surprised all the time (and often with no MT), its best for a comm to use his idle time to hover of the marines most likely to contact the enemy. Every moment and inch counts in NS, and med-time is one of the best examples. And with MT, there's just no excuse.
The best comms have a general feel for their marines' ammo counts and will give pre-emptive ammo as much as they can. Ammo is cheap, and its always best to keep your marines ready to fire than to have them thinking about their ammo and calling for it. And it really sucks to reload to a half-full magazine, only to then get the requested ammo and have to reload a second time.
I'm of the mind where if I have 5+ nodes and I can hold them well, I'll often get the quick-upgrading Catpacks. Yes they are expensive, but only if you overuse them. And frankly, in the right hands (of the right players), catpacks WIN battles that would otherwise be lost.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->macro would include building units (weld bots, mobile siege tanks etc..), buildings, upgrades and economy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, any decent comm has the critical structures hotlinked to the 1-5 keys, most importantly the arms. With it as such you can always have quick access to see progress and prepare res for the next tech. With the macro elements set up like this, you can focus more time (a lot more actually) on the micro, which, as i mentioned, is vitally important to winning the small battles, which all contribute to winning the big one.
I hope you dont find my tone condescending. I'm not here saying im the comm guru and you're not, not at all. I just laying out my approach to commanding and all of its elements, which should hopefully show why I believe that no comm should ever really have idle time.
Now take everything you just mentioned (minus cat packs, if marines can't win a game w/o cat packs, you need to recycle base and exit NS) and that still leaves me about 15 minutes out of a 30 minute game to do mundane household chores or study for my next chemistry test.
This game will never have the struggles learning and implementing tech trees that Starcraft does because there are no real hard counters, at least very few that actually matter.
Uhm, learning a level chem doesn't require more than listening in class tbh.
Replace chem with math, physics, programming, level design...
(though i think chem fits in there too, unless you're in like grade 9 chem at a shortbus school)
An offense/defense/build bonus toggle that affects the entire team giving everyone an extra 2% damage, or 2% armor, or 5% build speed, (or whatever %) which costs nothing, does not have to be researched, and is instant. Only one could be active at a time. As the game progresses the comm can switch to any of the bonuses depending on what's happening. So it would be something that expert comms can worry about for a little extra advantage.
Setting up a difficult siege with HA? As you move in, have damage on, then as you set up change to build speed, then an onos comes in switch back to damage, then change to armor to defend. Not that the comm doesn't already have enough to do. But if sc2 fails then maybe some koreans want to play ns2?
An offense/defense/build bonus toggle that affects the entire team giving everyone an extra 2% damage, or 2% armor, or 5% build speed, (or whatever %) which costs nothing, does not have to be researched, and is instant. Only one could be active at a time. As the game progresses the comm can switch to any of the bonuses depending on what's happening. So it would be something that expert comms can worry about for a little extra advantage.
Setting up a difficult siege with HA? As you move in, have damage on, then as you set up change to build speed, then an onos comes in switch back to damage, then change to armor to defend. Not that the comm doesn't already have enough to do. But if sc2 fails then maybe some koreans want to play ns2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that the idea isnt good but isnt it just a tiny bit unrealistic that suddenly the capability of a marines armour can reduce to allow an increase in their wepons damage?
Are marines actualy robots?
Not that I dont like it I just think it would have to be alot more realistic than instantly changing from one to another... Maybe pick at the start and keep for good, I dunno...
An offense/defense/build bonus toggle that affects the entire team giving everyone an extra 2% damage, or 2% armor, or 5% build speed, (or whatever %) which costs nothing, does not have to be researched, and is instant. Only one could be active at a time. As the game progresses the comm can switch to any of the bonuses depending on what's happening. So it would be something that expert comms can worry about for a little extra advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a madness to balance things like that. For example armor gives you either a bite or nothing. A huge difference. 2% dmg is nothing, but 10 % is big. Plus it gives comms very little more to do. One pretty much automatical hotkey combo changes it. Everyone can use the bonuses as long as they affect only your team in that way, its not anything limited to the good comms. Its much more challenging when you have to do something related to the decisions of the oppositing team.
I'd prefer something you can do any time you want to and something that takes awarness of alien situation and such. More ways of scouting, more ways of supporting your marines and so on.
I'd prefer something you can do any time you want to and something that takes awarness of alien situation and such. More ways of scouting, more ways of supporting your marines and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the aim of the system was to add a form of micro-managing to commanding since the marines, "micro-manage" themselves. Here's the kind of situation (I think) he's talking about.
Commander 1: leaves extra armor on all game, maybe increases damage for the final hive rush.
Commander 2: paying attention to a single battle the commander sets increase weapons until the skulks are in melee range and sets it to armor. The marines win the battle and the build bonus is triggered while they build the phase.
I think this idea is really clever, and very much on topic. It might even be what the devs had in mind when they were talking about commander spells(I hope so).
Yep, that's the idea, thanks for helping to clarify.
As I and many others have said before, you can always BS your way around these things. Gameplay first. (Worth a test, perhaps?)
I think it'd be like Deus Ex. You're pumped full of nanites, and they increase your capabilities - but they can't increase everything all at once, so what the commander can do is force them to specialise in certain areas at certain times. Basically, nanites are like the 'magic' of the future. (It stems from the belief that nano-technology, that the future, is limitless - so you can take some liberties with it.)
Even with a lock on, you'd still have to aim where the marine "is going to be". Unless medpacks had a much larger health radius(which would make them inaccurate in groups) you're still going to have to have some skill in this area, even if commanding views were marine-centric.
Generally speaking they're both twitch skill and some tactical call atm. Obiviosly you're going to spam your main pushing team, but from there on its a quick call here and there. It often gets quite spamtastic though. I'd be bored in the chair if didn't have some macro/micromanagement replacement. Its easy to pull off the correct tactics if you've got the time to judge and scout everything you want.
If you ask me, make medding somehow a bit more tactical and less spamtastic, but keep it somewhat fast paced. Otherwise you aren't going to have that many guys comming your average pub games anyway.
your confused. In my suggestion, medpacks would not have to be dropped at all. THey would be essentially casted directly on to the icon. Picture world of warcraft when in group and on the left is all the player icons. You don't have aim or even know where they are, you can just cast directly on the icon. So you can cast on screen or directly on icon. This is how warcraft III works too.
The Commander needs more to do? Please read closely then and let your imagination run with it. Allow the Commander to be the software side of things, and the marines following the Commander be the hardware side of things.
I have suggested this for the Commander before, commanding could take place in a virtual representation of the map, a digital blueprint, showing lines of power, water, communications, datastorage, hazardous waste material, and other such facilitating links in the chain that would make up a living enviroment that humans would build. A commander could then crack/hack/upgrade/etc at map's enviromental underpinnings to aid his troops.
Just thought of this now, brainstorming, maybe a Kharaa Hive Mind (Commander) could do the opposite, manipulating the underpinning space age bacterium to aid their guy's too. Different, but similar.
Ever play Zombie Master (HL2 mod) as the zombie master? What if you could manipulate the map in a similar fashion, not to hurt but to help? Extend a bridge there, open a locked door here, change the programing on a confectionary dispenser to instead hand out cat packs? I guess it would take away some of the 'welding magic' but then again, why not have some spots that need to be repaired by inserting an object or welding broken connections (which could be knocked out/broken/cut/chewed by a Kharaa again) before the Commander could work his "magic"? "One hand washing the other" and "Lets all work together as a team" and so forth.
Commander as it stands now in NS1 has plenty to do, just not sure if it is really all that fun, I know for me it has had many a frustrating moment and the apparent down time the original poster seems to talk about, where I would become little more than a dispensary for the marines, and God help me if I didn't have the resources or timing to drop that perfect set of equipment customized for them, those ungrateful jerks (at times from particular individuals of exceptionally low patience and understanding). NS2 I would hope would have a departure from that, and in someways we know it does, though more refined details elude us at this time.