Quorum sensing
La Chupacabra
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
When going through my notes I came across this term:
Quorum sensing:
- generally: "the number of members of a body that when duly assembled is constitutionally competent to transact business"
- in bacteria terms: "process by which many bacteria coordinate their gene expression according to the local density of their population by producing signaling molecules" (@ wikipedia)
I can give "Vibrio fisheri" as a example: when large amounts of these bacteria accumulate in the light organs of fish / squid they induce one another and start to express large quantities of luciferase - protein involved in bioluminescence (light producing reactions).
First thing that came to my head was NS. If new abilities of both individual aliens and / or the alien comm would be based on quorum sensing than it would greatly promote team work. Some ideas similar to this where already posted - onos transporter for instance, BUT PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANOTHER ONOS TRANSPORTER THREAD OUT OF THIS.
I am sure there are other ways that could be used:
- maybe giving some ability to the alien comm, which instead of having an alien structure build (as it is with Marines) would require a certain amount of life forms / classes to be present at that location / region?
- additional ability of a life form which can be used only when other life forms are present?
- make an ability (or abilities) stronger / more effective when it is (are) used simultaneously with another? (eg. primal cream - makes you faster / deal more damage / adren regen when under influence of it, but maybe sth different (primal screen boosts as its main function, and this topic is more about an additional effect when used in combination with other things) that is not linked to direct damage?)
I won't post any idea right now, I prefer to polish them first, but feel free to add your 5 cents!
Quorum sensing:
- generally: "the number of members of a body that when duly assembled is constitutionally competent to transact business"
- in bacteria terms: "process by which many bacteria coordinate their gene expression according to the local density of their population by producing signaling molecules" (@ wikipedia)
I can give "Vibrio fisheri" as a example: when large amounts of these bacteria accumulate in the light organs of fish / squid they induce one another and start to express large quantities of luciferase - protein involved in bioluminescence (light producing reactions).
First thing that came to my head was NS. If new abilities of both individual aliens and / or the alien comm would be based on quorum sensing than it would greatly promote team work. Some ideas similar to this where already posted - onos transporter for instance, BUT PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANOTHER ONOS TRANSPORTER THREAD OUT OF THIS.
I am sure there are other ways that could be used:
- maybe giving some ability to the alien comm, which instead of having an alien structure build (as it is with Marines) would require a certain amount of life forms / classes to be present at that location / region?
- additional ability of a life form which can be used only when other life forms are present?
- make an ability (or abilities) stronger / more effective when it is (are) used simultaneously with another? (eg. primal cream - makes you faster / deal more damage / adren regen when under influence of it, but maybe sth different (primal screen boosts as its main function, and this topic is more about an additional effect when used in combination with other things) that is not linked to direct damage?)
I won't post any idea right now, I prefer to polish them first, but feel free to add your 5 cents!
Comments
The best game example I can think of is the PRC army in Comander and Conquer: Generals. If enough infantry were in the same area they got a "propaganda/morale bonus" and were harder to kill.
Here's a thought, a Kharaa commander job could be to assign such a bonus, by creating a quorum leader(squad leader) and if lifeforms stuck near the quorum leader(or another lifeform that is near the quorum leader, think of the tag game "electricity") they would get bonuses to some stat/ability.
Each lifeform confers its own type of bonus and the commander can select whichever one in active in the quorum. An onos leader increases health, a fade leader increases speed, etc. OR instead of lifeform dependent bonuses, lifeforms gain half the stats of the quorum leader's chosen upgrades(unless they have those upgrades all ready). This is similar to <b>juice</b>'s idea of marine commander bonus's{<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675289" target="_blank">link</a>} to increase the micro in the game. I think it is different enough that they could both exist without seeming too similar.
Using a celerity fade it would be quite hard to start in the radius of other life forms...
Maybe a fade could have it the other way, when its alone it gains a bonus...
If the marines get a similar type bonus for working as a team, then i hope this doesnt just become the "alien" version of a marine bonus, NS is really good becasue it has 2 VERY different races with different abilitys if in NS2 they where to become two of the same teams with a different name and models it would be sad...
I really think this could be good with gorges, the higher the % of the team around the gorge the quicker it builds...
(not heal sprays that would make gorge rushes even more crazy)
This could also work with the hive, possibly my favorite thought, the higher the % of the team in the hive area the quicker it drops...
Important: READ THIS
I have written all my ideas with % of the team. This would have to be done by % of the team because of the huge varience in sizes of games for example if it was coded for 4 players being the maximum bonus then it would be realistic in a 8v8 to get the maximum but it would be really easy in a 18v18. Visa Versa if it was coded for 10 being the maximum it would be impossible in 8v8 and it would be realistic in 18v18.
If the aliens do gain power when certian classes and together theres should be a visual indication so other players can tell whats going on. - it can be fastrating being owned by a bonus u wernt aware existed.
However stuff like aliens changing colour, or getting faster, or leaving a venomus slippy resin on the floor, or expanding DI like crazy, or healing faster etc. i think it would be better if bonuses from Quorum sensing did differnt things to chambers (if chambers are being retain for ns2) chambers give lots of statisitcal and numerical bonuses to attributes as well as invisibiliy. If quorum sencing had a more visual, or new ability kind of effect i think it would make it more interesting and easier for other players to determine what was going on.
the other issue with any bonus from quorum sensing, is what is it tied too. if the aliens get it from the start of the round, will it be too powerful early on, or too weak later on, Will it be tied in power to the number of hives or some other factor?
Surely if It is on a % basis then if would not, effectivity, change throught the game... A 10% armour bonus for a skulk is pretty useless but for an Onos its very good...
This could also be done with the Marines... The commander could say commanding/moral boosting things to his team and they could get hit bonuses if they are in a group. Maybe more accuracy?
Even if alien commanders weren’t included, you could still have the hive mind giving out bonuses, say if aliens were following the same path as they’re team mates, then they could get speed bonuses. Maybe?
And if you were near others who were evolving, you evolve faster if you are near others who are evolving, that way when you are near a hive, with lots of others evolving next to you, you would be ready for battle much faster. But if you were alone it would take a while and so you would have to find somewhere to hide.
This would promote team work... Which is a good thing! <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Good idea!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Plus now that squads look like an almost guarantee on marines, I feel squads should be just as important if not more so than
<b>vote <!--coloro:#00CC00--><span style="color:#00CC00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
I just have one question: what's the chain of command going to look like here? Marines are kind of laid out like a dictatorship, Kharaa should technically be a communism since they are a collective sentience. But I'm at a loss on how to make that into an implementable system that works in a public server.
<!--quoteo(post=1676105:date=Apr 17 2008, 12:16 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 17 2008, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Each lifeform confers its own type of bonus and the commander can select whichever one in active in the quorum. An onos leader increases health, a fade leader increases speed, etc. OR instead of lifeform dependent bonuses, lifeforms gain half the stats of the quorum leader's chosen upgrades(unless they have those upgrades all ready).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I originally thought about having the quorum leader always be the highest lifeform/score leader in the quorum, but I decided that giving the commander the ability to change it would make for better gameplay. Maybe you could combine the two approaches where the default is the highest lifeform, but if a commander chosen quorum leader is present, that leader always takes precedence.
I always do more damage with three bites than with one. Don't you?
i find that leaping into said marine 15 times works well too
The essential idea of giving small (but even 5 hp for a skulk early game is huge) advantages to those which work in teams is a good idea. Incentives such as this would encourage aliens to effectively keep RTs down, be able to actually take on a marine squad, effectively ambush, and defend a hive. And in conjunction with a hive commander, I could also see these "packs" being coordinated to do the bidding of the alien commander
I thought the same in terms of Marines (where the additional effects are based on raised morale when fighting arm in arm with "the leader"), but having no "leader" when it comes to aliens (where the bonuses are based on increased amounts of bacteria/inducing molecules produced by other lifeforms?). It just doesn't fit aliens. Also, if Aliens would have a chain of command on the level of a squad than it might have bad consequences. For instance - if an Onos would be the leader, than smaller lifeforms would block his way all the time to get the additional bonus.
It could be better than what we have now, but is it really necessary to influence players <i>that</i> aggressively into working together? Are players who can't put 2 and 2 together and realize that pack hunting works better than solo straightlining really going to benefit (or be of benefit) in a caterpillar-accretion approach?
It could be better than what we have now, but is it really necessary to influence players <i>that</i> aggressively into working together? Are players who can't put 2 and 2 together and realize that pack hunting works better than solo straightlining really going to benefit (or be of benefit) in a caterpillar-accretion approach?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not like that I skulk can't bite if he is not in a pack, the bonuses wouldn't be much - and it doesn't have to be a bonus to the primary statistics, maybe something else?
but I get your idea... sure it is not the best approach in the world, but at least it does one good thing: it promotes team work, rather than prohibit/penalize soloing, which at first glance may seem the same, but work in a completely different ways to achieve the same (the latter I would call aggressive). Now, especially in pubs, soloing is what some people prefer due to the fact that in game like NS where some aliens have a lot of HP, people can easily "steal" your kills.
No matter how linear you make the game, or how many times you nudge players in the right direction, and how many good intentions you have of using positive instead of negative re-enforcement, certain people will refuse to play intelligently.
There are smart players, casual players, and outright bad players. You seem to be trying to cater your approach toward the bad end, where people won't think critically no matter how much you try to force them to.
I can see an argument to gently- or even forcefully slide casual players in the right direction so as to minimize learning the basics of the game, but you can't force intelligent thought on people who would rather play turn-based wack-a-mole. Believe me.
I'm intrigued, and I like this idea. Do it!
No matter how linear you make the game, or how many times you nudge players in the right direction, and how many good intentions you have of using positive instead of negative re-enforcement, certain people will refuse to play intelligently.
There are smart players, casual players, and outright bad players. You seem to be trying to cater your approach toward the bad end, where people won't think critically no matter how much you try to force them to.
I can see an argument to gently- or even forcefully slide casual players in the right direction so as to minimize learning the basics of the game, but you can't force intelligent thought on people who would rather play turn-based wack-a-mole. Believe me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may not help everyone, but it would help some and be kind of cool besides that. It could also be implemented in a way to add depth to the game. I agree it shouldn't be added for the sake of adding, but it can easily be taken to a higher level of play.
And the whole "positive reinforcement" stems from the newbie training ideas. You can't force players to play well but you can give them encouragements to do so (bonuses for sticking together) instead of commanders punishing rambos or making DI toxic to marines not in a sufficient group.
And the whole "positive reinforcement" stems from the newbie training ideas. You can't force players to play well but you can give them encouragements to do so (bonuses for sticking together) instead of commanders punishing rambos or making DI toxic to marines not in a sufficient group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay! Positive reinforcement! Just like how they train animals at Sea World!
On a related note, please be sure that they aren't a forcing factor. Small, but appreciable benefit, but not crippling if you don't have it. Of course, I don't expect 1 Marine to win against 5 Skulks or 1 Skulk versus 5 Marines unless the 1 was insane and the 5 were nub, but those rare occasions where you do pull it off are AWESOME!
This idea doesn't really jump out at me and say "man that sounds good" and I think the reason is the fact that implementing this would be extremely difficult.
If you implement and it's just a small boost, like people are suggesting, then whats the point? At what point does constantly looking over your shoulder to make sure you're getting a 1% armor / damage boost become counterproductive to keeping your eyes on the game and whats happening in front of you to ensure survival.
If it's just a small boost, it won't be big enough for people to bother. If it's a decent boost it will probably throw off the balance of the game, unless the marines have something similar. If the marines have something similar then everyone would have to group up for fear of the other team doing so and we'd have a linear, boring, predicable game.
You do mention a very good point. If it is substantial, then everyone would be in clumps. I believe this can be mitigated by the bonus being binary, you either get it or you don't. If it was cumulative based on how many people are around, that would be bad.
I'm not sure why being in a group is necessarily bad, though. Sure solo scouts and hit-and-run persons are good, but are so often easy pickings. This system will hopefully encourage players to work as a team, creating more dynamic team battles instead of one-on-ones. Plus, if loadout/accessory systems are added, then the diversity within the team would be amplified instead of simply skill and play style, creating interesting mixes of abilities and loadouts, at least for Marines. For aliens, there's a distinct difference between 2 Fades and a Lerk versus 1 Fade, 1 Lerk, 1 Skulk.
Granted, it's not a perfect system, but it just might work.
It reduces the possible gameplay options which makes the game less interesting. That's a heavy price to pay for something people should already be able to grasp - namely, that teamwork is important in a pack-hunt style game.
<!--quoteo(post=1680817:date=Jun 10 2008, 02:27 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 10 2008, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure solo scouts and hit-and-run persons are good, but are so often easy pickings. This system will hopefully encourage players to work as a team, creating more dynamic team battles instead of one-on-ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1680668:date=Jun 9 2008, 01:31 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 9 2008, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how linear you make the game, or how many times you nudge players in the right direction, and how many good intentions you have of using positive instead of negative re-enforcement, certain people will refuse to play intelligently.
...
I can see an argument to gently- or even forcefully slide casual players in the right direction so as to minimize learning the basics of the game, but you can't force intelligent thought on people who would rather play turn-based wack-a-mole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might help some of the casual players to funnel them into the same groups, but I'm skeptical as to whether the good would outweigh the bad. It might.
Shooting myself in the foot, please note that the Empires Mod is designed for at least 10v10, if not 20v20 games, so it's a much bigger scale than NS is. thus, at least for Empires, it is imperative people work in squads and don't rambo, whereas in NS it's much more forgivable and even useful.
Well for one thing, you wouldn't be able to approach Double on Tanith from 3 separate sides anymore unless you wanted to lose your armor boost.
Players have to weigh the benefits of flanking vs. the benefits of sticking together with or without an armor boost. Only new players would possibly "overly stick together", and I think that's better than the alternative. Generally players have to stick together to get to double before they can worry about approaches anyway.
When I first read this concept I thought of Caliber's hardlock-style system of having a field commander who can shield and perhaps equip his team. If it were drastically, drastically different from that and very minor in terms of actual balance, I can see it being a positive addition.
I just don't want it to turn into an element that does anything more than nudge players in the right direction when they don't know where to go - if it went further than that it would become a serious problem for strategic diversity.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->EDIT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: What might be really cool is if different upgrades combined differently in more of a qualitative utility route than a quantitative balance effect, this would encourage actual <i>interaction</i> between players vs mere teamwork, and would have little effect on balance during an attack, while granting more strategic diversity than you would have without it.
The vision I was trying to get across is the quorum leader is the originator of the aura. He has no roles or responsibilities beyond that. But now that I think about it a little more we could really do away with the quorum leader entirely and just have the comm choose the upgrades for the quorum directly. I originally suggested it that way because A.) I wanted this to introduce some micro and B.) I wanted to differentiate it from the Marine micro system proposed by <b>juice</b>(there's a link to it earlier in the thread). I want to think about a different tack to take because, while I think the Quorum leader method is workable, there's probably a more elegant solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1680963:date=Jun 12 2008, 01:10 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 12 2008, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't want it to turn into an element that does anything more than nudge players in the right direction when they don't know where to go - if it went further than that it would become a serious problem for strategic diversity.
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->EDIT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: What might be really cool is if different upgrades combined differently in more of a qualitative utility route than a quantitative balance effect, this would encourage actual <i>interaction</i> between players vs mere teamwork, and would have little effect on balance during an attack, while granting more strategic diversity than you would have without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't quite follow what you mean by "qualitative utility" compared to "quantitative balance", but it sounds interesting.
I'm not suggesting that form of trap for NS2, and by Web I don't mean the absurdly overpowered web gun that the gorge gets in NS - it's just an example of one system that could be added.
Other ideas could be a carapace skulk and a regeneration skulk being able to form DI into a wall that would add shielding (the cara skulk) and would regenerate (the regen skulk). Again, this idea is pitiful, it's just an example of the permutative gameplay dynamic I'm suggesting.
I would think that if this were implemented, you would have some item on the HUD that displayed how many people are in your group (so that you know if you have the minimum number to get the bonus - assuming it's binary), who's the quorum leader (so you know what bonus you're getting), etc. So I don't think turning around every 5 seconds is much of an issue.
But I agree that it's pointless if the bonus is too little.
I'm not suggesting that form of trap for NS2, and by Web I don't mean the absurdly overpowered web gun that the gorge gets in NS - it's just an example of one system that could be added.
Other ideas could be a carapace skulk and a regeneration skulk being able to form DI into a wall that would add shielding (the cara skulk) and would regenerate (the regen skulk). Again, this idea is pitiful, it's just an example of the permutative gameplay dynamic I'm suggesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So rather than adjusting quantities of current stats, you'd want to provide team helping abilities. That sounds really cool, but I'd have a hard time limiting these abilities to being within a quorum. It would seem like an "artificial limitation" rather than an "added bonus" to me. Maybe that's just because I can't think of any good ones. I think the trick is that these abilities should require teamwork implicitly, so that it doesn't feel like an arbitrary limitation.
Maybe a fade could take a skulk/lerk/gorge with him on a blink. The blink would occur in a small AoE that gets larger with larger quorums.
The onos could have an armor plate on the front that shields him(from the locational damage thread and many others) that grows as the quorum grows so he could shield other lifeforms.
I'm hoping that people migth be 'ignorant' enough enough to fall for this. A visible boost on your screen makes you think you're gaining something. As long as people can't understand the metagame they might not think how small the boost is. I'd rather try some other way than fooling people though.
I guess the bottom idea would be to give even low skilled players some advantage of grouping up. I wonder if we could get the average gamer to the level where he can form an effective group with another random pubber. By that I mean they cover each other, possibly communicate, pay attention to each other and make up for the increased firepower and pair of eyes they've got. NS2 should be much easier understand, but I don't think its going to be enough to make people operate as an effective squad.