<!--quoteo(post=1677740:date=May 5 2008, 02:50 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 5 2008, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seriously just Godwined this thread? Why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is definitely not a reductio ad Hitlerum. There is no logical fallacy in saying that certain groups of people allied themselves with Hitler "thanks to their amazing shared logic."
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678074:date=May 8 2008, 11:06 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 8 2008, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is definitely not a reductio ad Hitlerum. There is no logical fallacy in saying that certain groups of people allied themselves with Hitler "thanks to their amazing shared logic."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see, you're all out trolling. Nevermind then.
Hmm adding new skins or visual effects seems pointless to me. I rather just download new skins and textures like I would in NS1 (Wh40k models) so why would I spend hours upon hours for something that I could just download in matter of seconds? I think if they do choose this route, I think it should be something that actually adds to the game, like people are saying team based bonuses but very minor, like 3% health regen boost (for those around you) thats just an example, they would have to come up with whatever works and doesn't create imbalance.
Because if you download it you're either criminal scum or missing the whole point that you stand out from the crowd. Using custom models means EVERYONE looks different.
TF2 unlocks are terrible. They just encourage people to be completely useless to their team with their achievement hunting.
Unlocks BF2142-style though I could tolerate, but I still can't see how they would fit in to the NS2 theme. Personal buffs like that kind of defeat the point of having a commander outline your abilities. BF2142-style unlocks however do encourage teamwork, as you'll get more points by killing things in a team and completing objectives, so that's always a plus.
Rainbow Six: Vegas 2-style unlocks though would be perfect, I think. Specifically the ones you get from a promotion (new camouflages and new types of armors). Maybe even the Marksman/CQB/Assault unlocks, as long as they don't outright buff the player, but more rather give them slightly different equipment to fit their playing style better.
I think the amazing thing about how a lot of stuff in NS2 will be scripted is that server admins will be free to download or write their own sets of gamerules. Like unlockable content. That kind of allows UnknownWorlds to focus on making the game good, and the community to focus on making the community good.
<!--quoteo(post=1678281:date=May 10 2008, 02:31 PM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ May 10 2008, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 unlocks are terrible. They just encourage people to be completely useless to their team with their achievement hunting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's more the achivements than the unlocks. Take for example the "assist in revenging 20 nemeses" achievement - if it was "assist in dominating 20 people" it would make sense because you're helping someone good do better, but instead you're encouraged to heal those who are not CREDIT TO TEAM
<!--quoteo(post=1678277:date=May 10 2008, 06:55 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 10 2008, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because if you download it you're either criminal scum or missing the whole point that you stand out from the crowd. Using custom models means EVERYONE looks different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell are you talking about? Do you understand what custom skins are? They are free and made by the players. And I am not so egotistical that I need to stand out to look "leet" before fellow gamers. I like the Warhammer 40k universe, so I used the skins/models that players made for NS, which is legal and acceptable. And if a server wouldn't allow custom textures, or a clan match I obviously used all the defaults so what is your problem?
And i understand the point, but like I said before, I fail to understand WHY would I want to stand out? I can careless about looking elite before other players, but what I do care about is helping my team work together towards a victory. A matter of opinion and taste, but that is what I prefer, assuming they add anything, and assuming they could create it within a reasonable degree and level of balance. But I don't mind either way on what they decide to do, I care about the over all core creation of the game, not so much the little added bonuses.
You might not care, but you're not the only person playing the game. I wasn't referring to custom skins so much as some sort of exploit that would let you bypass the unlocking part when I jested about criminal scum.
Achievement unlocks are fun (HL2/TF2 style is what I'm talking about) and seem to add depth, but they seem dangerous too, especially in multiplayer games.
TF2 all-medic games were terrible, but probably avoidable if the game had started with the achievements (well, you'd still have farmers, but they would hopefully get it out of their system early on before people actually learn the game enough to get their experience ruined). The thing that really bothered me is people just end up farming the achievements (me included -- the worst part is the ubersaw actually has an advantage over standard weapons, so I must get *all* medic achievements). This makes life hard for people actually trying to play the game. I imagine if TF2 magically came out with all the other class achievements, that it'd be nearly impossible to play normal games for a while. Even then, new players will come in and want to start cracking on them right away.
I think unlocks may as well be left to a singleplayer mode of some sort. But, I think that ultimately, achievement unlocks don't belong in NS. They are one of those "neat" things that would take too long to properly implement, and I don't think it's essential to core gameplay. As you can see, they are an afterthought for even Valve.
The only unlocks that are potentially useful (they could be simple marine gear adornments, not even anything functional) are those related to your perceived skill (a quantitative points system related to your kills and team assistance). Even then, unlocks should not give the "higher skill" players an advantage over newcomers. It's simply there to make them feel cooler and have a reason to do well just beyond topping the scoreboard.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678308:date=May 10 2008, 01:42 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 10 2008, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's more the achivements than the unlocks. Take for example the "assist in revenging 20 nemeses" achievement - if it was "assist in dominating 20 people" it would make sense because you're helping someone good do better, but instead you're encouraged to heal those who are not CREDIT TO TEAM<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you used a bad example. Assisting in revenging 20 nemeses is definitely a teamplay achievement. Assisting a demoman in taking out an annoying sentry for example would be a good way to get revenge assists.
<!--quoteo(post=1678446:date=May 12 2008, 04:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 12 2008, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you used a bad example. Assisting in revenging 20 nemeses is definitely a teamplay achievement. Assisting a demoman in taking out an annoying sentry for example would be a good way to get revenge assists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sentries can't dominate anyone. And how is a demoman going to get dominated by an engineer (unless he's a absolutely terrible demoman, in which case ubering isn't going to help)? While it may be teamplay, it's forced and unhelpful. GOOD NS2 achievements might be stuff like "stay alive in a squad for 5 minutes" or "assist in killing 5 skulks in a single life" or "kill a skulk that was attacking a teammate", as opposed to "stay alive for 5 minutes" or "kill 5 skulks in a single life".
<!--quoteo(post=1678456:date=May 12 2008, 10:43 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ May 12 2008, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries can't dominate anyone. And how is a demoman going to get dominated by an engineer (unless he's a absolutely terrible demoman, in which case ubering isn't going to help)? While it may be teamplay, it's forced and unhelpful. <b>GOOD NS2 achievements might be stuff like "stay alive in a squad for 5 minutes" or "assist in killing 5 skulks in a single life" or "kill a skulk that was attacking a teammate"</b>, as opposed to "stay alive for 5 minutes" or "kill 5 skulks in a single life".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bang on, I would actually want to do those kinds of achievements, just to know I helped my fellow Marine or Kharaa out.
When it comes to achievements, I hope they don't do unlocks either, if they are in. Cosmetic? Cool. Bonus advantages only attainable through achievements / experience points? Ugh, has ruined some of my game in TF2 and I am sure it would do the same for NS2.
Unlocks in a NS2, since it continues the FPS + RTS, should be of the bio/tech kind, which are brought about through team work assists, leadership direction, and map features. If there is anything that seems to be a common theme with NS1 players, it is we love working together as a team, even to the point it does matter if we win or lose, just as long as we can say we pulled together to face a challenge, the other team pulling together to face us!
Comments
It is definitely not a reductio ad Hitlerum. There is no logical fallacy in saying that certain groups of people allied themselves with Hitler "thanks to their amazing shared logic."
I see, you're all out trolling. Nevermind then.
Unlocks BF2142-style though I could tolerate, but I still can't see how they would fit in to the NS2 theme. Personal buffs like that kind of defeat the point of having a commander outline your abilities. BF2142-style unlocks however do encourage teamwork, as you'll get more points by killing things in a team and completing objectives, so that's always a plus.
Rainbow Six: Vegas 2-style unlocks though would be perfect, I think. Specifically the ones you get from a promotion (new camouflages and new types of armors). Maybe even the Marksman/CQB/Assault unlocks, as long as they don't outright buff the player, but more rather give them slightly different equipment to fit their playing style better.
It's in your hands, friends.
What the hell are you talking about? Do you understand what custom skins are? They are free and made by the players. And I am not so egotistical that I need to stand out to look "leet" before fellow gamers. I like the Warhammer 40k universe, so I used the skins/models that players made for NS, which is legal and acceptable. And if a server wouldn't allow custom textures, or a clan match I obviously used all the defaults so what is your problem?
And i understand the point, but like I said before, I fail to understand WHY would I want to stand out? I can careless about looking elite before other players, but what I do care about is helping my team work together towards a victory. A matter of opinion and taste, but that is what I prefer, assuming they add anything, and assuming they could create it within a reasonable degree and level of balance. But I don't mind either way on what they decide to do, I care about the over all core creation of the game, not so much the little added bonuses.
I wasn't referring to custom skins so much as some sort of exploit that would let you bypass the unlocking part when I jested about criminal scum.
TF2 all-medic games were terrible, but probably avoidable if the game had started with the achievements (well, you'd still have farmers, but they would hopefully get it out of their system early on before people actually learn the game enough to get their experience ruined). The thing that really bothered me is people just end up farming the achievements (me included -- the worst part is the ubersaw actually has an advantage over standard weapons, so I must get *all* medic achievements). This makes life hard for people actually trying to play the game. I imagine if TF2 magically came out with all the other class achievements, that it'd be nearly impossible to play normal games for a while. Even then, new players will come in and want to start cracking on them right away.
I think unlocks may as well be left to a singleplayer mode of some sort. But, I think that ultimately, achievement unlocks don't belong in NS. They are one of those "neat" things that would take too long to properly implement, and I don't think it's essential to core gameplay. As you can see, they are an afterthought for even Valve.
The only unlocks that are potentially useful (they could be simple marine gear adornments, not even anything functional) are those related to your perceived skill (a quantitative points system related to your kills and team assistance). Even then, unlocks should not give the "higher skill" players an advantage over newcomers. It's simply there to make them feel cooler and have a reason to do well just beyond topping the scoreboard.
But across I don't have NS2 lol.
I think you used a bad example. Assisting in revenging 20 nemeses is definitely a teamplay achievement. Assisting a demoman in taking out an annoying sentry for example would be a good way to get revenge assists.
While it may be teamplay, it's forced and unhelpful.
GOOD NS2 achievements might be stuff like "stay alive in a squad for 5 minutes" or "assist in killing 5 skulks in a single life" or "kill a skulk that was attacking a teammate", as opposed to "stay alive for 5 minutes" or "kill 5 skulks in a single life".
While it may be teamplay, it's forced and unhelpful.
<b>GOOD NS2 achievements might be stuff like "stay alive in a squad for 5 minutes" or "assist in killing 5 skulks in a single life" or "kill a skulk that was attacking a teammate"</b>, as opposed to "stay alive for 5 minutes" or "kill 5 skulks in a single life".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bang on, I would actually want to do those kinds of achievements, just to know I helped my fellow Marine or Kharaa out.
When it comes to achievements, I hope they don't do unlocks either, if they are in. Cosmetic? Cool. Bonus advantages only attainable through achievements / experience points? Ugh, has ruined some of my game in TF2 and I am sure it would do the same for NS2.
Unlocks in a NS2, since it continues the FPS + RTS, should be of the bio/tech kind, which are brought about through team work assists, leadership direction, and map features. If there is anything that seems to be a common theme with NS1 players, it is we love working together as a team, even to the point it does matter if we win or lose, just as long as we can say we pulled together to face a challenge, the other team pulling together to face us!