"I wouldn't give the dev team directly that much credit. I think the PT and vets system had alot to the game balance. I mean its version 3.1 now and NS is only just as balanced as it's ever been. It took them a really long time to get it so refined."
I actually see it as the opposite. 1.4 - 2.0 were the glory days, and high peak of player activity, but the more changes they made and choices of balance, drove many, many players away and why its a lot more difficult now, finding a server with people instead of bots. I prefer how they made it themselves over according to what your saying, the vets and PT did to it. Also the addition of co. maps seemed to also turn people away. Which reminds me, I hope co. is not added into NS2.
It won't be. But I don't think CO drove people away, but quite the opposite. The issue people take with CO is that it drove people away <b>from</b> Classic (and <b>to</b> COmbat).
<!--quoteo(post=1678555:date=May 14 2008, 05:07 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ May 14 2008, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually see it as the opposite. 1.4 - 2.0 were the glory days, and high peak of player activity, but the more changes they made and choices of balance, drove many, many players away and why its a lot more difficult now, finding a server with people instead of bots. I prefer how they made it themselves over according to what your saying, the vets and PT did to it. Also the addition of co. maps seemed to also turn people away. Which reminds me, I hope co. is not added into NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think the players leaving were because of balance. 1.04 --> 2.0 might have driven a bunch of people away. 3.2 rebalance might have upset big server people, but I doubt that many left because of it either. More than anything it was the old hl engine. The site was down and a complicated game on hl1 engine doesn't get much publicity or new players.
At least I can't name any changes in the whole game that had been considered widely bad for a longer period of time. Maybe the fade blink, but then I think the game got better with it once people got used to it. 1.04 --> 2.0 might have lost something that actually worked, but the system wasn't flexible enough for the game to develop on until 2.0.
Balance is good. But the removing of various visual effects and overall brightning of the maps (and tons of other stuff like it), in the name of balance ended up hurting everything (in terms of fun an enjoyment which is what draws users). I agree 1.04 was great (dispite being totaly unbalanced), 2.0 just wasnt nearly as fun imo, the 3.0 and 3.2 improved balance and helped. The addition of CO brought alot of twitch gamers, but twitch gamers dont tend to stay on one game very long, and they eventualy left. The website going down (practicly forever), was the death blow to NS1 though.
<!--quoteo(post=1678623:date=May 14 2008, 05:48 PM:name=obsid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid @ May 14 2008, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance is good. But the removing of various visual effects and overall brightning of the maps (and tons of other stuff like it), in the name of balance ended up hurting everything (in terms of fun an enjoyment which is what draws users). I agree 1.04 was great (dispite being totaly unbalanced), 2.0 just wasnt nearly as fun imo, the 3.0 and 3.2 improved balance and helped. The addition of CO brought alot of twitch gamers, but twitch gamers dont tend to stay on one game very long, and they eventualy left. The website going down (practicly forever), was the death blow to NS1 though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I felt it was more things like, making the fade an ultimate killing machine.. or alien, the drastic changes to aliens, rfk, combat of course, making the onos a joke (compared to fade or previous versions) and the independence of hive to gestate into stronger aliens.
Really all that was needed balance wise from 1.4, mainly at least, dropping the siege range fixing the jet pack and lowering the HMG damage on structures which they did.
<!--quoteo(post=1678626:date=May 14 2008, 11:48 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ May 14 2008, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I felt it was more things like, making the fade an ultimate killing machine.. or alien, the drastic changes to aliens, rfk, combat of course, making the onos a joke (compared to fade or previous versions) and the independence of hive to gestate into stronger aliens.
Really all that was needed balance wise from 1.4, mainly at least, dropping the siege range fixing the jet pack and lowering the HMG damage on structures which they did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you take a look at the US vs EU demos (probably any demo of a somewhat experienced team) on the 1.04 era, you can see the problems. The fact that aliens were so dependant on the 2nd hive was limiting them a lot. I doubt the game could have been going much longer that way anyway. Not for 6 (?) more years at least.
Not that I hadn't enjoyed playing those epic games back then but I highly doubt they would work with the developed gaming sense years later.
Yeah thats true but, thats because that was when Jp/HMG was extremely effective, siege range was much farther, and fades weren't nearly indestructible, I bet if they kept those and went back to the way the hives were, as well as making the onos buffed, it would work out fine.
When they changed all that they also changed the hive system, so there was never a chance to try it this way.
Fades got weaker after 1.4. Players got better. From what I recall, in 1.04 once that second hive went up and aliens got a fade, it was game over for the marines. Current Fade is only about as strong as 1.04 lerks, however thats pretty darn strong because good 1.04 lerks were brutal.
But on the main topic, I am of opinion that weopon selection will only discourage teamwork in pubs. In competive matches or a few teamwork based servers it would work out fine. For some reason discouraging rambos buy giving them guns seams counter productive to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1678675:date=May 15 2008, 07:33 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ May 15 2008, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah thats true but, thats because that was when Jp/HMG was extremely effective, siege range was much farther, and fades weren't nearly indestructible, I bet if they kept those and went back to the way the hives were, as well as making the onos buffed, it would work out fine.
When they changed all that they also changed the hive system, so there was never a chance to try it this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The general problem was that aliens couldn't keep up with the teching marines without the 2nd hive. Then again, the marines couldn't counter the 2nd as soon as it was up. The 2nd hive was just too big to fit in the gameplay properly.
Yeh, and on the original topic, I really wonder how the co-effect is prevented. On one moment you've got 8 LMGs, the next they all get shotties as soons as those are avaible. You can balance it better than co and encourage various builds, but I think most pubbers will still stick to a few usual routines. I guess gun based upgrades are a solution. At that point 3 marines is always a somewhat similar threat and you won't have to pay that much attention to the gear though.
i think its good. reduces the power a crappy com has to ruin the game for marines. (therefore making public games a lot better) also would make it more fun for mainstream players and those who would like the ability to go rambo or play as one would in CO. (selfishly)
What Jackson says is right. Marines purchasing their own weapons won't encourage or discourage rambo play - if you're gonna play as a teamplayer then that's how you'll play, if you're gonna rambo then you're gonna rambo anyway. Giving the marines the ability to purchase their own weapons just makes it more fun for more players.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2008
I'm curious wether they keep the ability to pick up weapons lost by dead marines. I'm not a big fan of this anyway, but I guess this deserves an own thread. (I hate it that players get a reward for not covering you properly) It might effect the player's behaviour though, because they will spend their own res on guns and aren't always able to purchase another gun, if they die too fast. Keeping this in mind I'm afraid some players will play anxiously in order to not loose their guns and some jerks might even block or not cover ppl with guns to pick up the weapon after their death.
I think this would strip the commander of his duites...
But I do see a potential for this idea, but its pretty tough to come up with something likeable.
The only thing i could think of.. allowing marines to buy "Specialized Bullets" for whichever gun the commander supplies.
Maybe some bullets could be better at breaking skulk armor while sucking at penetrating its flesh, and visa-verse. Different bullets could cause the gun to sound different too.
These buyable bullets could be upgrades Optional to the commander.
How marines would buy these unique bullets?
Maybe they could earn money from killing aliens and serving their nation.
I thought this idea was pretty solid. I'm surprised to see the not-so-thrilled reactions to this idea. When I read the thread, it seemed like people thought HMGs and GLs were going to be out in the field within seconds. Keep in mind, the commander will probably still have to research those upgrades (unless I missed something) so there's a good chance that he will still have some influence on what his marines are using on the field.
This also frees up the marines' and commander's time. Now when you spawn, you won't have to waste 45 seconds waiting for the comm to drop you a shotty, and the comm won't have to take his eyes off the action in order to accommodate players who just want to become equipped.
If the two separate resource pools can be transfered we might see some interesting balance issues, espeically if marines can give res to the commander.
NS1: this is how marine side works, commander says hey you two go down hallway X and kill skulk, you will be rewarded with shotguns.(response) roger that NS2: hey guys go down hallway X and kill these aliens comng to spawn, (response) ###### off Im gonna go die and waste this shotgun i just bought with the last of our resources.
<!--quoteo(post=1679180:date=May 22 2008, 03:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 22 2008, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought this idea was pretty solid. I'm surprised to see the not-so-thrilled reactions to this idea. When I read the thread, it seemed like people thought HMGs and GLs were going to be out in the field within seconds. Keep in mind, the commander will probably still have to research those upgrades (unless I missed something) so there's a good chance that he will still have some influence on what his marines are using on the field.
This also frees up the marines' and commander's time. Now when you spawn, you won't have to waste 45 seconds waiting for the comm to drop you a shotty, and the comm won't have to take his eyes off the action in order to accommodate players who just want to become equipped.
If the two separate resource pools can be transfered we might see some interesting balance issues, espeically if marines can give res to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that when you've unlocked hmg, people will most likely use it a lot. At that point they also run into OCs and such with HMG only groups. The comm has the big picture and the marines have the selection. Obiviously you can control it here and there by choosing tech, but you can't affect the mixture of weapons that is going to be in the field.
It's not completely a bad or a good thing. On the other hand a bad commander can't mess up the whole game and commanding is probably less demanding to learn, but then again the comm without power won't interestest that many good commanders to play public, which might hurt the overall pub level a bit. All depends a lot on the complete role of the comm in NS2.
Sure are a lot of assumptions flying around about resources, weapon functions, and what incentives there are to obey a Commander/Hive Mind directive.
Really, at this point, we have concepts, and vague outlines of them at that, not even considering how they tie into each other. NS1 =/= NS2.
Are there really so many NS1 players with rose colored glasses on that they forget what happens to the game when no one wants to Command, thanks to the frustrations of the role? "Game over, man, game over."
Way too much hand wringing over what could be a seriously big improvement over the NS1 experience since the desire of the Devs as heard in pod casts previously was to have a Unified Resource Model, allowing for far greater diversity than the precarious balancing act of buff & nerf that was NS1. Assume that resources will be collected and dispersed exactly like NS1 and you are already way off from what Devs have waxed philosophically about currently in their game design plans.
Sorry you will have to forgive my ignorance, its is 2:40 am and I havent read to whole post so excuse me if this idea has already been said.
How about the wepon cache system where to commander makes a stack and players go and pick them up except implement into it a system where if a player dies 30 seconds after getting his new gun it registers and in-order to get a new gun instead of just stopping him. (sometimes you can legitimately die 30 seconds after getting a new gun without necesseraly beeing a noob) The said player when he approaches the cache to get a gun sends a message to commander that DOES NOT POP UP, but can be opened... so as not to annoy the commander. Asking whether that player should be allowed another gun yet, if not the commander simply waits until they think the player deserves a gun, this could be a feature on the commanders 'tab to open' "score menu." The commander would also be able to "put" people onto this "not able to get a gun list" if he feels the player does not deserve a gun at present.
Thanks for reading.
I just re read this and i cannot write im too tired ill fix it tommorow hope you can understand...
<!--quoteo(post=1679343:date=May 24 2008, 12:20 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ May 24 2008, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about the wepon cache system where to commander makes a stack and players go and pick them up ...the cache to get a gun sends a message to commander that DOES NOT POP UP, but can be opened... so as not to annoy the commander. Asking whether that player should be allowed another gun yet<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was written well enough to understand. Something that I would view as a problem with this system is that it adds another level of complexity to the already intimidating (for casual gamers) commander HUD. If it's someone's first or second time in the chair, so much is going to be coming at them it may be overwhelming. It also adds to the whole idea that commanding in NS is currently more like babysitting. This would further that idea, I think.
I really like the new system where Marines buy their own guns through resources that they've earned. It sounds like, to me, that the commander is making more of the strategical decisions in what weapons to research, when to do it, and obviously directing marines once these decisions have been made. Then the tactical decision making is left to the marines; things like how many guys will get a shotty, who will have welders, etc. Who knows, maybe there will even be a voice chat button for just your squad -- making this process that much easier. I think this system puts all of the decisions that have to be made in the right hands, right at the time when those people should be making them.
I much prefer this [buying weapons] over the current system in NS Classic. A quick side note, I hope the commander is still able to drop weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1679343:date=May 24 2008, 12:20 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ May 24 2008, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry you will have to forgive my ignorance, its is 2:40 am and I havent read to whole post so excuse me if this idea has already been said.
How about the wepon cache system where to commander makes a stack and players go and pick them up except implement into it a system where if a player dies 30 seconds after getting his new gun it registers and in-order to get a new gun instead of just stopping him. (sometimes you can legitimately die 30 seconds after getting a new gun without necesseraly beeing a noob) The said player when he approaches the cache to get a gun sends a message to commander that DOES NOT POP UP, but can be opened... so as not to annoy the commander. Asking whether that player should be allowed another gun yet, if not the commander simply waits until they think the player deserves a gun, this could be a feature on the commanders 'tab to open' "score menu." The commander would also be able to "put" people onto this "not able to get a gun list" if he feels the player does not deserve a gun at present. Thanks for reading.
I just re read this and i cannot write im too tired ill fix it tommorow hope you can understand...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, beast thats a great idea.
Here's a possible tweak to the idea, if this isn't what you've said already.
Maybe Tab for the commander serves to not only show player scores, but to categorieze players into sections.
I think it would be awsome if the armory or an extension of it had a weapon rack of some sort. The commander could then use TAB to categorize players under "Weapon Sections".
For example, I'de put Beast in the "Grenade Launcher Section", and when I buy a grenade launcher only he can access it from the armory.
This could apply to every other weapon, and while in the TAB menu player names should be movable in groups or singularly.
When buying a weapon instead of buying it from the comm's equipment menu, the commander could buy it from a specific armory. When bought, the weapon appears in that armory and can only be picked up by those who have access to it... allowing the commander to dispense weapons at any armory around the map.. to a skilled individual or group
<!--quoteo(post=1677559:date=May 3 2008, 11:46 PM:name=MoONinja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MoONinja @ May 3 2008, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is a mod out there that does this for reg NS atm, but let to comm drop weapons into a pool that the marines can than take weapons out of when they want them instead of having to ask each time, that way the comm could keep X amount of weapons stocked in the armory and focus on his team instead. I agree that left up to the player the marine team will be constantly out of resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1679200:date=May 22 2008, 01:55 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 22 2008, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that when you've unlocked hmg, people will most likely use it a lot. At that point they also run into OCs and such with HMG only groups. The comm has the big picture and the marines have the selection. Obiviously you can control it here and there by choosing tech, but you can't affect the mixture of weapons that is going to be in the field.
It's not completely a bad or a good thing. On the other hand a bad commander can't mess up the whole game and commanding is probably less demanding to learn, but then again the comm without power won't interest that many good commanders to play public, which might hurt the overall pub level a bit. All depends a lot on the complete role of the comm in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said. <!--quoteo(post=1679345:date=May 23 2008, 08:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 23 2008, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was written well enough to understand. Something that I would view as a problem with this system is that it adds another level of complexity to the already intimidating (for casual gamers) commander HUD. If it's someone's first or second time in the chair, so much is going to be coming at them it may be overwhelming. It also adds to the whole idea that commanding in NS is currently more like babysitting. This would further that idea, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the devs are adding the complexity of individual resource pools anyway, I don't think a way to manage those pools is adding too much. Ideally the management of these pools would either be invisible or simplified for new commanders ie: a slider the adjusts global levels, or a set implicit system. <!--quoteo(post=1679345:date=May 23 2008, 08:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 23 2008, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the new system where Marines buy their own guns through resources that they've earned. It sounds like, to me, that the commander is making more of the strategical decisions in what weapons to research, when to do it, and obviously directing marines once these decisions have been made. Then the tactical decision making is left to the marines; things like how many guys will get a shotty, who will have welders, etc. Who knows, maybe there will even be a voice chat button for just your squad -- making this process that much easier. I think this system puts all of the decisions that have to be made in the right hands, right at the time when those people should be making them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The probelm is as long as the commander is good, he is often the best person to make the decision of when and what. I think a marine RFK system is good for new commanders, but frustrating for decent commanders.
What if their was a researchable option on the armory to remove marine buy menu?
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680119:date=Jun 3 2008, 07:54 AM:name=ChromeAngel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChromeAngel @ Jun 3 2008, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if their was a researchable option on the armory to remove marine buy menu?
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm something like a "martial law" mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1680119:date=Jun 3 2008, 12:54 PM:name=ChromeAngel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChromeAngel @ Jun 3 2008, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if their was a researchable option on the armory to remove marine buy menu?
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That would be unintuitive to most players who are unfamiliar with this upgrade. One round you'd get your own weapon, the next you wouldn't. I can see that being very frustrating for players, either you have a personal buy menu or you don't. Don't show a player something one round and then take it away from them.
Locking the Armoury is a better method of controlling your res flow, or simply perhaps giving your players a buylimit: i.e. each Marine can only get 15 res' worth of equipment from the Armoury. Later on the Commander can raise it to 20 res or if he's lising resnodes he can pull it back to 10 res or lock it completely and drop weapons manually.
How about this: RFK adds res to individual marine res pools. A Commander can then specify percentages of his incoming res (10/20/30%) of which will also be distributed to the marines' individual res pools. This would make it easy for a commander to control his troops in a pub game (cooperative teams get more %) and in private matches there would be the option to give 0% of the res. It would always still be possible for Commanders to drop weapons (it would have to be or a coordinated JP rush or HA train would be nigh impossible). Also possible in private matches would be to add the RFK to the Commander's res pool.
Case closed? or does it make things to complicated for the comm? I mean, I think things SHOULD be complicated for the comm - his job is not supposed to be a cakewalk. Besides, new comms simply won't use tools like this which is analagous to new marines not using effective tools at their disposal (not knowing about re-ammoing at armories, grenades, etc...). The skill curve for the comm shouldn't be less difficult than the Marines, no?
EDIT: SentrySteve you're just barely older than me on these forums <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
I actually see it as the opposite. 1.4 - 2.0 were the glory days, and high peak of player activity, but the more changes they made and choices of balance, drove many, many players away and why its a lot more difficult now, finding a server with people instead of bots. I prefer how they made it themselves over according to what your saying, the vets and PT did to it. Also the addition of co. maps seemed to also turn people away. Which reminds me, I hope co. is not added into NS2.
I don't think the players leaving were because of balance. 1.04 --> 2.0 might have driven a bunch of people away. 3.2 rebalance might have upset big server people, but I doubt that many left because of it either. More than anything it was the old hl engine. The site was down and a complicated game on hl1 engine doesn't get much publicity or new players.
At least I can't name any changes in the whole game that had been considered widely bad for a longer period of time. Maybe the fade blink, but then I think the game got better with it once people got used to it. 1.04 --> 2.0 might have lost something that actually worked, but the system wasn't flexible enough for the game to develop on until 2.0.
I felt it was more things like, making the fade an ultimate killing machine.. or alien, the drastic changes to aliens, rfk, combat of course, making the onos a joke (compared to fade or previous versions) and the independence of hive to gestate into stronger aliens.
Really all that was needed balance wise from 1.4, mainly at least, dropping the siege range fixing the jet pack and lowering the HMG damage on structures which they did.
Really all that was needed balance wise from 1.4, mainly at least, dropping the siege range fixing the jet pack and lowering the HMG damage on structures which they did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you take a look at the US vs EU demos (probably any demo of a somewhat experienced team) on the 1.04 era, you can see the problems. The fact that aliens were so dependant on the 2nd hive was limiting them a lot. I doubt the game could have been going much longer that way anyway. Not for 6 (?) more years at least.
Not that I hadn't enjoyed playing those epic games back then but I highly doubt they would work with the developed gaming sense years later.
When they changed all that they also changed the hive system, so there was never a chance to try it this way.
But on the main topic, I am of opinion that weopon selection will only discourage teamwork in pubs. In competive matches or a few teamwork based servers it would work out fine. For some reason discouraging rambos buy giving them guns seams counter productive to me.
When they changed all that they also changed the hive system, so there was never a chance to try it this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The general problem was that aliens couldn't keep up with the teching marines without the 2nd hive. Then again, the marines couldn't counter the 2nd as soon as it was up. The 2nd hive was just too big to fit in the gameplay properly.
Yeh, and on the original topic, I really wonder how the co-effect is prevented. On one moment you've got 8 LMGs, the next they all get shotties as soons as those are avaible. You can balance it better than co and encourage various builds, but I think most pubbers will still stick to a few usual routines. I guess gun based upgrades are a solution. At that point 3 marines is always a somewhat similar threat and you won't have to pay that much attention to the gear though.
reduces the power a crappy com has to ruin the game for marines. (therefore making public games a lot better)
also would make it more fun for mainstream players and those who would like the ability to go rambo or play as one would in CO. (selfishly)
I'm not a big fan of this anyway, but I guess this deserves an own thread.
(I hate it that players get a reward for not covering you properly)
It might effect the player's behaviour though, because they will spend their own res on guns and aren't always able to purchase another gun, if they die too fast.
Keeping this in mind I'm afraid some players will play anxiously in order to not loose their guns and some jerks might even block or not cover ppl with guns to pick up the weapon after their death.
But I do see a potential for this idea, but its pretty tough to come up with something likeable.
The only thing i could think of.. allowing marines to buy "Specialized Bullets" for whichever gun the commander supplies.
Maybe some bullets could be better at breaking skulk armor while sucking at penetrating its flesh, and visa-verse. Different bullets could cause the gun to sound different too.
These buyable bullets could be upgrades Optional to the commander.
How marines would buy these unique bullets?
Maybe they could earn money from killing aliens and serving their nation.
Hmm the possibilities..
This also frees up the marines' and commander's time. Now when you spawn, you won't have to waste 45 seconds waiting for the comm to drop you a shotty, and the comm won't have to take his eyes off the action in order to accommodate players who just want to become equipped.
If the two separate resource pools can be transfered we might see some interesting balance issues, espeically if marines can give res to the commander.
NS2: hey guys go down hallway X and kill these aliens comng to spawn, (response) ###### off Im gonna go die and waste this shotgun i just bought with the last of our resources.
thats all i have to say
This also frees up the marines' and commander's time. Now when you spawn, you won't have to waste 45 seconds waiting for the comm to drop you a shotty, and the comm won't have to take his eyes off the action in order to accommodate players who just want to become equipped.
If the two separate resource pools can be transfered we might see some interesting balance issues, espeically if marines can give res to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that when you've unlocked hmg, people will most likely use it a lot. At that point they also run into OCs and such with HMG only groups. The comm has the big picture and the marines have the selection. Obiviously you can control it here and there by choosing tech, but you can't affect the mixture of weapons that is going to be in the field.
It's not completely a bad or a good thing. On the other hand a bad commander can't mess up the whole game and commanding is probably less demanding to learn, but then again the comm without power won't interestest that many good commanders to play public, which might hurt the overall pub level a bit. All depends a lot on the complete role of the comm in NS2.
Really, at this point, we have concepts, and vague outlines of them at that, not even considering how they tie into each other. NS1 =/= NS2.
Are there really so many NS1 players with rose colored glasses on that they forget what happens to the game when no one wants to Command, thanks to the frustrations of the role? "Game over, man, game over."
Way too much hand wringing over what could be a seriously big improvement over the NS1 experience since the desire of the Devs as heard in pod casts previously was to have a Unified Resource Model, allowing for far greater diversity than the precarious balancing act of buff & nerf that was NS1. Assume that resources will be collected and dispersed exactly like NS1 and you are already way off from what Devs have waxed philosophically about currently in their game design plans.
How about the wepon cache system where to commander makes a stack and players go and pick them up except implement into it a system where if a player dies 30 seconds after getting his new gun it registers and in-order to get a new gun instead of just stopping him. (sometimes you can legitimately die 30 seconds after getting a new gun without necesseraly beeing a noob)
The said player when he approaches the cache to get a gun sends a message to commander that DOES NOT POP UP, but can be opened... so as not to annoy the commander. Asking whether that player should be allowed another gun yet, if not the commander simply waits until they think the player deserves a gun, this could be a feature on the commanders 'tab to open' "score menu." The commander would also be able to "put" people onto this "not able to get a gun list" if he feels the player does not deserve a gun at present.
Thanks for reading.
I just re read this and i cannot write im too tired ill fix it tommorow hope you can understand...
It was written well enough to understand. Something that I would view as a problem with this system is that it adds another level of complexity to the already intimidating (for casual gamers) commander HUD. If it's someone's first or second time in the chair, so much is going to be coming at them it may be overwhelming. It also adds to the whole idea that commanding in NS is currently more like babysitting. This would further that idea, I think.
I really like the new system where Marines buy their own guns through resources that they've earned. It sounds like, to me, that the commander is making more of the strategical decisions in what weapons to research, when to do it, and obviously directing marines once these decisions have been made. Then the tactical decision making is left to the marines; things like how many guys will get a shotty, who will have welders, etc. Who knows, maybe there will even be a voice chat button for just your squad -- making this process that much easier. I think this system puts all of the decisions that have to be made in the right hands, right at the time when those people should be making them.
I much prefer this [buying weapons] over the current system in NS Classic. A quick side note, I hope the commander is still able to drop weapons.
How about the wepon cache system where to commander makes a stack and players go and pick them up except implement into it a system where if a player dies 30 seconds after getting his new gun it registers and in-order to get a new gun instead of just stopping him. (sometimes you can legitimately die 30 seconds after getting a new gun without necesseraly beeing a noob)
The said player when he approaches the cache to get a gun sends a message to commander that DOES NOT POP UP, but can be opened... so as not to annoy the commander. Asking whether that player should be allowed another gun yet, if not the commander simply waits until they think the player deserves a gun, this could be a feature on the commanders 'tab to open' "score menu." The commander would also be able to "put" people onto this "not able to get a gun list" if he feels the player does not deserve a gun at present.
Thanks for reading.
I just re read this and i cannot write im too tired ill fix it tommorow hope you can understand...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, beast thats a great idea.
Here's a possible tweak to the idea, if this isn't what you've said already.
Maybe Tab for the commander serves to not only show player scores, but to categorieze players into sections.
I think it would be awsome if the armory or an extension of it had a weapon rack of some sort. The commander could then use TAB to categorize players under "Weapon Sections".
For example, I'de put Beast in the "Grenade Launcher Section", and when I buy a grenade launcher only he can access it from the armory.
This could apply to every other weapon, and while in the TAB menu player names should be movable in groups or singularly.
When buying a weapon instead of buying it from the comm's equipment menu, the commander could buy it from a specific armory. When bought, the weapon appears in that armory and can only be picked up by those who have access to it... allowing the commander to dispense weapons at any armory around the map.. to a skilled individual or group
^
This is a good idea
It's not completely a bad or a good thing. On the other hand a bad commander can't mess up the whole game and commanding is probably less demanding to learn, but then again the comm without power won't interest that many good commanders to play public, which might hurt the overall pub level a bit. All depends a lot on the complete role of the comm in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
<!--quoteo(post=1679345:date=May 23 2008, 08:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 23 2008, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was written well enough to understand. Something that I would view as a problem with this system is that it adds another level of complexity to the already intimidating (for casual gamers) commander HUD. If it's someone's first or second time in the chair, so much is going to be coming at them it may be overwhelming. It also adds to the whole idea that commanding in NS is currently more like babysitting. This would further that idea, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the devs are adding the complexity of individual resource pools anyway, I don't think a way to manage those pools is adding too much. Ideally the management of these pools would either be invisible or simplified for new commanders ie: a slider the adjusts global levels, or a set implicit system.
<!--quoteo(post=1679345:date=May 23 2008, 08:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 23 2008, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the new system where Marines buy their own guns through resources that they've earned. It sounds like, to me, that the commander is making more of the strategical decisions in what weapons to research, when to do it, and obviously directing marines once these decisions have been made. Then the tactical decision making is left to the marines; things like how many guys will get a shotty, who will have welders, etc. Who knows, maybe there will even be a voice chat button for just your squad -- making this process that much easier. I think this system puts all of the decisions that have to be made in the right hands, right at the time when those people should be making them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The probelm is as long as the commander is good, he is often the best person to make the decision of when and what. I think a marine RFK system is good for new commanders, but frustrating for decent commanders.
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm something like a "martial law" mode.
Confident, expeienced commanders could take the upgrade, pool all the RFK and hand out weapons as it was appropriate, newbie commanders can just let his marines look after themsleves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That would be unintuitive to most players who are unfamiliar with this upgrade. One round you'd get your own weapon, the next you wouldn't. I can see that being very frustrating for players, either you have a personal buy menu or you don't. Don't show a player something one round and then take it away from them.
Locking the Armoury is a better method of controlling your res flow, or simply perhaps giving your players a buylimit: i.e. each Marine can only get 15 res' worth of equipment from the Armoury. Later on the Commander can raise it to 20 res or if he's lising resnodes he can pull it back to 10 res or lock it completely and drop weapons manually.
Case closed? or does it make things to complicated for the comm? I mean, I think things SHOULD be complicated for the comm - his job is not supposed to be a cakewalk. Besides, new comms simply won't use tools like this which is analagous to new marines not using effective tools at their disposal (not knowing about re-ammoing at armories, grenades, etc...). The skill curve for the comm shouldn't be less difficult than the Marines, no?
EDIT: SentrySteve you're just barely older than me on these forums <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />