I can see part of the reasoning behind this; the Skulk is a low health unit and it could make sense to give it a way of staying alive longer in the late game when the heavier-hitting weapons are rolled out on the Marine side. At the moment this is handled by giving them a movement boost: Leap and a Hive health boost.
I don't think it could be mapped onto the existing NS design, but it could be worked into a re-imagining of the NS design.
<!--quoteo(post=1679700:date=May 29 2008, 02:23 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ May 29 2008, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe something similar to the WC3 ability to feed on corpses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That my friend would be awesome. Cannibalize FTW!
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1679636:date=May 28 2008, 12:57 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 28 2008, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can see part of the reasoning behind this; the Skulk is a low health unit and it could make sense to give it a way of staying alive longer in the late game when the heavier-hitting weapons are rolled out on the Marine side. At the moment this is handled by giving them a movement boost: Leap and a Hive health boost.
I don't think it could be mapped onto the existing NS design, but it could be worked into a re-imagining of the NS design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it could work as long as it's a low percentage of the damage and the skulk health was reduced a bit. A skulk that is biting a marine(ie closed the gap, probably ambushed) is more likely to stay alive while a frontal attack skulk is toast a little quicker. It reinforces the "skulk as scout" motif, but would make playing the skulk a little bit harder for a new player.
So if this vampiric attack is an upgrade... what's it going to tied to?
SC? MC? Both an MC and SC?
PS: This idea isn't inspired from the vampirism plugin often used on WhichBots is it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Perhaps DC, to replace the boring Redemption (which is useless to most classes anyway). It would also make DC a more feasible first chamber since it would work well with most classes, especially Hive1 Lerk and Fade.
there is an amxx plugin that does this - it takes a user defined percentage of the damage afflicted to a marine and adds it back to the health/armor. it can also be set to affect skulks and/or lerks. anything but a low percentage can cause serious damage because they're regaining chunks of health and/or armor every time they land a successful hit.
i use this to give the bots on my servers a bit of an edge - but they're still just bots and they lose. using this plugin the way it is now and with real players would be asking for trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=1680010:date=Jun 2 2008, 11:56 AM:name=zimzum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zimzum @ Jun 2 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i use this to give the bots on my servers a bit of an edge - but they're still just bots and they lose. using this plugin the way it is now and with real players would be asking for trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd say because this is a very potent upgrade in the right hands, obviously it would require some sort of sacrifice on the part of the user.
1. This upgrade would be a DC choice, so would not be additional to Carapace or Regeneration. 2. If this upgrade really proved powerful, it could also nullify innate Alien regen when equipped.
I think this upgrade would need to make the Alien vulnerable to concentrated fire but reward all-out attack and hit accuracy. I think it'd be really fun to use; one for the risk-takers out there.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
edited June 2008
The idea is a great replacement for redemption which is a dead (unused) ability. If it would heal only the HP (not armour or armour to a much lesser degree), than it wouldn't be overpowering.
It would be good, but not better than regen or cara - for example: > when an alien would be low on health after a fight one can easily hide in a vent and restore HP in a matter of seconds with regen, while with this "feeding" ability he could be easily killed with a bullet or two if he won't manages to get healed by a gorge/hive/dc in time > cara would still be better in some situations, because you need to run up to the marine to bite him! With cara alien might endure more and manage to kill a marine, which would normally kill this alien with the same amount of bullets
I'm all for it, as long as the mentioned limitations would be in place (HP only)
Redemption is not a bad ability, it's just that a having a % chance to return to hive checked periodically when you are below 40% max HP when you are taking level 3 damage from multiple marines means you don't always make it back.
It has it's uses, particularly for gorges. It means you can escape and get back to the hive. This both create a loop behavior that reinforces public players to check up on the hive, and allow for more aggressive assaults.
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something replace it for some of the attack classes, but please don't replace redemption for gorges.
What's to say we have to have just 3 upgrades for NS2 anyways? I mean, wouldn't the Kharaa have developed new counter-tech evolutions by now? Why not 4 abilities per chamber?
My original question is was not one of what to replace, but which chamber "felt" like a vampirism upgrade.
PS: If you remember, there were 4 upgrade chambers originally:<ul><li>Sensory</li><li>Movement</li><li>Defense</li><li>Offense</li></ul>But of course for some reason Charlie felt it necessary to make the offense chamber into a static, turret-like structure instead of an upgrade chamber. Perhaps it's time to give the OC it's upgrades in NS2? Let the D.I. handle the static defenses now?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680138:date=Jun 3 2008, 01:47 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 3 2008, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Redemption is not a bad ability<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to disagree. I don't think it's over/under powered, but I do think it's bad. It's not fun for either player, the attacker because they feel they've been cheated of a kill, and the redemptor because they've been taken out of combat.
I do agree that vampirism sounds like an offensive upgrade. It would be neat if the OC was an "unchained" chamber with leech, focus, and something else, maybe "hunger"(a temp primal scream for getting a kill) without the health gain.
remember the effectiveness of redemption was a balance issue. It's fine how it was. Remember at one point though it was soooooo effective that onos became invincible, even in clan play.
<!--quoteo(post=1680126:date=Jun 3 2008, 02:31 PM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Jun 3 2008, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is a great replacement for redemption which is a dead (unused) ability. If it would heal only the HP (not armour or armour to a much lesser degree), than it wouldn't be overpowering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good call. This would make it really balanced imo, since a Fade would then still be at massive risk to an HMG or Shotgun or even 2 level 3 LMGs. That is to say it wouldn't overpower the Fade, it would simply cater for a different playstyle. A (Hive1) Fade with vamp could stay in the MS and risk his life to spawncamp the Marine respawn queue, but if he missed a couple of hits on any respawning Marine he would die.
<!--quoteo(post=1680142:date=Jun 3 2008, 07:17 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 3 2008, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree that vampirism sounds like an offensive upgrade. It would be neat if the OC was an "unchained" chamber with leech, focus, and something else, maybe "hunger"(a temp primal scream for getting a kill) without the health gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I also agree that <b>IF</b> the OC were made into an upgrades chamber, it would be more suitable to add vamp to the OC abilities than the DC abilities.
But I do think Redemption is the worst upgrade in the game. Silence can still be useful if used on a Lerk or a Fade when the other team has MT for surprise attacks, and it is still valuable for approaching lone Marines from behind (the blind spot in their MT). Redemption is totally worthless for Skulks in all areas of the game, it's fairly pointless for Lerks and no Fade would choose Redemption over Cara or Regen. It's only really useful for Onoses and perhaps, as you say, Gorges.
Imo Gorges shouldn't be in unsafe areas so shouldn't need Redemption. If you venture out, you need to face the consequences if a ninja Marine discovers you. Anyway if you have Carapace you can take on that lone Marine 1 on 1 unless the Comm is wasting a lot of resources on medpacks, in which case your life won't be in vain. When I Gorge I almost always do so to drop an MC, and I almost always choose Celerity (unless I'm Gorging to heal the Hive) both of which I use to escape if I'm being chased.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
<!--quoteo(post=1680138:date=Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My original question is was not one of what to replace, but which chamber "felt" like a vampirism upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> DC comes to mind because it gathers hp/armour affecting abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1680138:date=Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: If you remember, there were 4 upgrade chambers originally:<ul><li>Sensory</li><li>Movement</li><li>Defense</li><li>Offense</li></ul>But of course for some reason Charlie felt it necessary to make the offense chamber into a static, turret-like structure instead of an upgrade chamber. Perhaps it's time to give the OC it's upgrades in NS2? Let the D.I. handle the static defenses now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you know other chambers apart from giving aliens the ability to upgrade also have other effects - DC heals, SC cloacks etc. If DI would be responsible for static defenses, than what would be the additional function of OCs? If they will end up useless than it will be inconsistent with the other 3 chambers and leaving them with their spike-splitting ability would mean having two structures with the same function which is also bad. Of course we could make more types of turrets / OC's etc., but it might mean sepuku to the game's balance. Personally I like the idea of upgrading\evolving existing OC's into better ones after some time/resource rather than increasing the amount of structures. Also, I like the idea that you can place OC at any time and that it does not take up an upgrade slot.
Anyway - with the arrival of alien comm and unified resource model issues concerning classification of chambers etc. might change...
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1680176:date=Jun 4 2008, 05:25 AM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Jun 4 2008, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DC comes to mind because it gathers hp/armour affecting abilities. As you know other chambers apart from giving aliens the ability to upgrade also have other effects<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would like to see redempt replaced and leech would be fine to do it too. I think it could also be added to the OC, and ocs could still fire, that just wouldn't be their primary purpose anymore.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1680188:date=Jun 4 2008, 02:40 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 4 2008, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see redempt replaced and leech would be fine to do it too. I think it could also be added to the OC, and ocs could still fire, that just wouldn't be their primary purpose anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My impression about the future NS2 gameplay is that the devs are trying to make it simpler, but equally diverse as NS1. If might be not intuitive for new players to have 2 structures that do the same (as their primary or secondary function) and may be confused with each other.
Anyway - more chambers require more abilities and designing upgrades only because one needs to fill up at least 2 more slots (together with "leeching/feeding") is the wrong way to go. In such situations development should go the other way around. The whole idea of "offensive" chamber would mean that the upgrades would need to make it easier for aliens on the "offensive side" for it to have sense and to be consistent -> probably damage increase, rate of fire/bite etc. and such things are just lame. Everyone will screw cloack/cara/cele if they can bite better.
Comments
I don't think it could be mapped onto the existing NS design, but it could be worked into a re-imagining of the NS design.
That my friend would be awesome. Cannibalize FTW!
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://omnomnomnom.com/" target="_blank">Om nom nom nom!</a>
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
I don't think it could be mapped onto the existing NS design, but it could be worked into a re-imagining of the NS design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it could work as long as it's a low percentage of the damage and the skulk health was reduced a bit. A skulk that is biting a marine(ie closed the gap, probably ambushed) is more likely to stay alive while a frontal attack skulk is toast a little quicker. It reinforces the "skulk as scout" motif, but would make playing the skulk a little bit harder for a new player.
SC? MC? Both an MC and SC?
PS: This idea isn't inspired from the vampirism plugin often used on WhichBots is it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
i use this to give the bots on my servers a bit of an edge - but they're still just bots and they lose. using this plugin the way it is now and with real players would be asking for trouble.
1. This upgrade would be a DC choice, so would not be additional to Carapace or Regeneration.
2. If this upgrade really proved powerful, it could also nullify innate Alien regen when equipped.
I think this upgrade would need to make the Alien vulnerable to concentrated fire but reward all-out attack and hit accuracy. I think it'd be really fun to use; one for the risk-takers out there.
It would be good, but not better than regen or cara - for example:
> when an alien would be low on health after a fight one can easily hide in a vent and restore HP in a matter of seconds with regen, while with this "feeding" ability he could be easily killed with a bullet or two if he won't manages to get healed by a gorge/hive/dc in time
> cara would still be better in some situations, because you need to run up to the marine to bite him! With cara alien might endure more and manage to kill a marine, which would normally kill this alien with the same amount of bullets
I'm all for it, as long as the mentioned limitations would be in place (HP only)
It has it's uses, particularly for gorges. It means you can escape and get back to the hive. This both create a loop behavior that reinforces public players to check up on the hive, and allow for more aggressive assaults.
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something replace it for some of the attack classes, but please don't replace redemption for gorges.
What's to say we have to have just 3 upgrades for NS2 anyways? I mean, wouldn't the Kharaa have developed new counter-tech evolutions by now? Why not 4 abilities per chamber?
My original question is was not one of what to replace, but which chamber "felt" like a vampirism upgrade.
PS: If you remember, there were 4 upgrade chambers originally:<ul><li>Sensory</li><li>Movement</li><li>Defense</li><li>Offense</li></ul>But of course for some reason Charlie felt it necessary to make the offense chamber into a static, turret-like structure instead of an upgrade chamber. Perhaps it's time to give the OC it's upgrades in NS2? Let the D.I. handle the static defenses now?
I have to disagree. I don't think it's over/under powered, but I do think it's bad. It's not fun for either player, the attacker because they feel they've been cheated of a kill, and the redemptor because they've been taken out of combat.
I do agree that vampirism sounds like an offensive upgrade. It would be neat if the OC was an "unchained" chamber with leech, focus, and something else, maybe "hunger"(a temp primal scream for getting a kill) without the health gain.
<!--quoteo(post=1680142:date=Jun 3 2008, 07:17 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 3 2008, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree that vampirism sounds like an offensive upgrade. It would be neat if the OC was an "unchained" chamber with leech, focus, and something else, maybe "hunger"(a temp primal scream for getting a kill) without the health gain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I also agree that <b>IF</b> the OC were made into an upgrades chamber, it would be more suitable to add vamp to the OC abilities than the DC abilities.
But I do think Redemption is the worst upgrade in the game. Silence can still be useful if used on a Lerk or a Fade when the other team has MT for surprise attacks, and it is still valuable for approaching lone Marines from behind (the blind spot in their MT). Redemption is totally worthless for Skulks in all areas of the game, it's fairly pointless for Lerks and no Fade would choose Redemption over Cara or Regen. It's only really useful for Onoses and perhaps, as you say, Gorges.
Imo Gorges shouldn't be in unsafe areas so shouldn't need Redemption. If you venture out, you need to face the consequences if a ninja Marine discovers you. Anyway if you have Carapace you can take on that lone Marine 1 on 1 unless the Comm is wasting a lot of resources on medpacks, in which case your life won't be in vain. When I Gorge I almost always do so to drop an MC, and I almost always choose Celerity (unless I'm Gorging to heal the Hive) both of which I use to escape if I'm being chased.
DC comes to mind because it gathers hp/armour affecting abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1680138:date=Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 3 2008, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: If you remember, there were 4 upgrade chambers originally:<ul><li>Sensory</li><li>Movement</li><li>Defense</li><li>Offense</li></ul>But of course for some reason Charlie felt it necessary to make the offense chamber into a static, turret-like structure instead of an upgrade chamber. Perhaps it's time to give the OC it's upgrades in NS2? Let the D.I. handle the static defenses now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you know other chambers apart from giving aliens the ability to upgrade also have other effects - DC heals, SC cloacks etc. If DI would be responsible for static defenses, than what would be the additional function of OCs? If they will end up useless than it will be inconsistent with the other 3 chambers and leaving them with their spike-splitting ability would mean having two structures with the same function which is also bad. Of course we could make more types of turrets / OC's etc., but it might mean sepuku to the game's balance. Personally I like the idea of upgrading\evolving existing OC's into better ones after some time/resource rather than increasing the amount of structures. Also, I like the idea that you can place OC at any time and that it does not take up an upgrade slot.
Anyway - with the arrival of alien comm and unified resource model issues concerning classification of chambers etc. might change...
As you know other chambers apart from giving aliens the ability to upgrade also have other effects<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see redempt replaced and leech would be fine to do it too. I think it could also be added to the OC, and ocs could still fire, that just wouldn't be their primary purpose anymore.
My impression about the future NS2 gameplay is that the devs are trying to make it simpler, but equally diverse as NS1. If might be not intuitive for new players to have 2 structures that do the same (as their primary or secondary function) and may be confused with each other.
Anyway - more chambers require more abilities and designing upgrades only because one needs to fill up at least 2 more slots (together with "leeching/feeding") is the wrong way to go. In such situations development should go the other way around. The whole idea of "offensive" chamber would mean that the upgrades would need to make it easier for aliens on the "offensive side" for it to have sense and to be consistent -> probably damage increase, rate of fire/bite etc. and such things are just lame. Everyone will screw cloack/cara/cele if they can bite better.