locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1681012:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I honestly cannot think of any NS1 map where this applies. I can't think of too many 'dark areas' off the top of my head, however, I have jacked up my brightness to max and may have even tweaked gamma. I would assume that most players also adjust brightness, but I don't really know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well off the top of my head, ns_veil, all the hives are darker than MS. If not in actual actual lighting, the textures are darker <!--quoteo(post=1681012:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I even remember hearing about how hives may not have predetermined spots (I think I heard that, anyway) and at this point in the development stage maybe the dev's don't even know how they want hives to work. I'd think this concept piece was used more for getting the 'feel' of the map rather than source material for individual rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a good point. This area of the map may not be ideal for a hive location, but the are probably other better places to create a "hive room".
Edit: <!--quoteo(post=1681013:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:38 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem here is that it would mean Marines no longer have to check for cloaked Hives by firing at them or moving into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a non-issue since either the presence of DI will signify the hive before the lack of light, or DI can be created by other means.
<!--quoteo(post=1681014:date=Jun 12 2008, 05:41 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 12 2008, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a non-issue since either the presence of DI will signify the hive before the lack of light, or DI can be created by other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What about cloaked, growing Hives?
It would be logical that DI would only spread to announce an Alien presence once the Hive was fully grown and active. If it did so before it would alert hostiles to the presence of Hive 0 Aliens and a non-healing, non-respawning, non-functional Hive.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1681020:date=Jun 12 2008, 02:42 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about cloaked, growing Hives?
It would be logical that DI would only spread to announce an Alien presence once the Hive was fully grown and active. If it did so before it would alert hostiles to the presence of Hive 0 Aliens and a non-healing, non-respawning, non-functional Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a cloaked growing hive isn't putting out DI(which I agree makes the most sense), then there's no DI to block the light...
<!--quoteo(post=1680976:date=Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is in a multiplayer, the more you play, for every player the aethetic elements become de-emphasised (as the non-essential information gets condensed into 'chunks' in the brain's memory) and the formal elements gain a stronger focus. The fact that the Hive is more aesthetically beautiful has absolutely no impact on persistent play, it's the way it works in terms of the game's mechanics that should be receiving the greatest attention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1680976:date=Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is, because we're going to eventually ignore the aesthetic elements of NS2, it needs to be dark and scary so that it's atmospheric-enough?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1681024:date=Jun 12 2008, 03:29 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 12 2008, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what you're saying is, because we're going to eventually ignore the aesthetic elements of NS2, it needs to be dark and scary so that it's atmospheric-enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current atmosphere of NS is dark and subtle and doesn't detract from gameplay. Having a bright and open environment brings it to the front, both changing the mood and making it more prominent in gameplay.
I really like the concept art and I certainly like the idea of a change of pace, though I wouldn't want all of NS2 to use this art direction. I think rather than all alien hiverooms needing to be dark and gloomy, they should instead be somewhat wild and organic in contrast to the gritty technology of the marine side. There are a number of ways to do that while mixing up the atmosphere of the map, as seen here.
Also, I wish you guys would drop more gameplay hints in the podcasts, I think that's what we all really want to hear <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> No commitments or promises necessary, I'd just like to hear what the devs are thinking about when it comes to the actual game design.
<!--quoteo(post=1681005:date=Jun 12 2008, 10:21 AM:name=Juic3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Juic3 @ Jun 12 2008, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WOW i love the Artwork. i could't resist and made a Wallpaper =D <img src="http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/f/2008/164/3/0/NS2_Biosphere_1680x1050_by_Th3Juic3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm realy looking forward to this game. i hope is going to be as great as it sounds <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you make us another wallpaper from the J! modded version? pls:)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2008
Haven't yet listened to the podcast, but let me say one thing...
It seems like you guys are portraying "darkness" as something evil... Of course to get a good game you should not have areas where you can't see, but darkness can also be fairly well lit (so you can still see) next to brighter areas to set a contrast... To me the concept art of the hive area is too bright, it needs shadowy/darker areas. The thing that made me love NS was the fact that shadows and lights were playing nice with each other. Dark areas should use damaged/flickering lights for added danger to move in as a marine (I mean look at the NS1 trailer! That is not dark, but does feel dark and scary <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />)
Fact is to make things look good in goldSRC and source, you have to make use off good dark/light contrast. They simply cannot live without eachother or you would either have way too dark areas or washed out areas... Kind of like taking a picture of a sunset at auto settings vs long shutterspeed+ND filter. A lot more contrast+richness of colors will be had with the manual settings.
Lights (or spots) should be used to bring areas of interest or really good architecture into focus, while darker areas can obscure the generic corridors, the combination of both will enhance atmosphere and produce hiding places (hive area unsafe for marine kind of gameplay element?). I certainly hope NS2 will not be washed out like this particular concept art hive area, which is trying to compensate the washed out bit with a colorexplosion of green...
No offence Cory just an observation of the lighting, the art itself is awesome. I'm just not a fan of the lighting theme used <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I like the dark+light combo of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/screenshots/envconcept11.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> particular shot better, it is bright and well lit, but still has enough shadow to create the contrast that made NS1
I find it amusing that everyone is bagging a more brighter area when as I said in like the 4th post in this thread, lots of people tend to adjust the brightness heaps which gets rid of dark areas anyway....
Also, how cool would it be if after the hive was put up, dynamic infestation blocked out the windows so sun couldnt get in?
Making the maps brighter is intended to make it less oppressive. Since hardcore players will adjust quickly and aesthetics will be downplayed over time (as quoted earlier), this is unlikely to be an issue for them. (though they'll complain loudly at first) For newer players oppressive lighting can push them away and leave them with a bad impression. Something that's aesthetically pleasing is just naturally more welcoming and less depressing, something that NS sorely needs given that currently NS can create frustrating experiences for many people when losing. Though, I don't think it'd hurt if the infestation created more shadows.
That said, how do you create something ominous accordingly with the setting but not oppressive? It's probably a difficult balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1681040:date=Jun 13 2008, 12:32 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Raven_XI @ Jun 13 2008, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lots of people tend to adjust the brightness heaps which gets rid of dark areas anyway....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly the reason why there should be a few really bright areas, so that any fool that turns his gamma/brightness way up will be blinded. it will finally make them keep their settings at a suitable level, so they can appreciate the whole map, and view it as the mapper intended it to look.
remember people we dont know how the dev's will use lighting effects in NS2. as wankalot said previously, those rays of light looked strong enough to obscure vision. so there could be light blur effects when looking up at the hive with the sunlight behind it.
if anyone has played DOD:source, they will notice that if they go from a dark room out into sunlight, they will be slightly blinded, or at least have their vision reduced, like in real life, and NS2 could have this same effect. so if this bright hiveroom had very dark corridors leading into it, every marine would be temporarily blinded when entering it, giving the aliens a strong advantage....
<!--quoteo(post=1681042:date=Jun 12 2008, 08:26 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Jun 12 2008, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so they can appreciate the whole map, and view it as the mapper intended it to look.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After all the numerous dark hives, people are going to complain about ONE hive room with good lighting?? its one room, people are getting to over dramatic about it, I think its a good idea and concept, which I hope to see in game.
Also makes logical sense that after all the hives the aliens have made, they eventually hit a room that has some light in it. It's not as if they are vulnerable to light, where they would only nest in darkened rooms. Actually now that I think about it, I can remember another room that had good lighting in it, the hive in Origin, it kind of reminds me of this, and it has a lot of greenery around it also, and that worked out fine, so whats the big deal with having light in a room with a hive, especially givin the fact of how many dark hives there are.
I may have missed a pod cast about this, so excuse me if it's a redundant question, but will the hives simply appear above gorges or will they grow out of something, like a little hivule or creep? I really like the idea of growing structures sucking energy out of their surrounding creep as they grow, to sort of tie of the loose end of big ole' structures appearing from little ole gorgies.
<!--quoteo(post=1681049:date=Jun 13 2008, 04:31 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ Jun 13 2008, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After all the numerous dark hives, people are going to complain about ONE hive room with good lighting?? its one room, people are getting to over dramatic about it, I think its a good idea and concept, which I hope to see in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but it isn't one room. Were talking about concept art here, this may be the only concept piece that is developed for the whole map. Imagine a whole map in that style, that's what it's about.
<!--quoteo(post=1681042:date=Jun 13 2008, 03:26 AM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Jun 13 2008, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->exactly the reason why there should be a few really bright areas, so that any fool that turns his gamma/brightness way up will be blinded. it will finally make them keep their settings at a suitable level, so they can appreciate the whole map, and view it as the mapper intended it to look.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A noble gesture, but ultimately futile.
<!--quoteo(post=1681024:date=Jun 12 2008, 08:29 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 12 2008, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what you're saying is, because we're going to eventually ignore the aesthetic elements of NS2, it needs to be dark and scary so that it's atmospheric-enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never said aesthetics aren't important. Go back and read my post. I was responding to Charlie's comment about changing the aesthetics to make them more appealing <i>with longplay in mind</i>. This just doesn't make sense for the reasons I gave.
Aesthetics are what hook players initially and draw them into the game. They are massively important. However, with multiplayer games the more you play, the more you focus on how the rules of the game interact and the less you care about the aesthetics (assuming they are aesthetics that have no major impact -or can be made to have no major impact- on gameplay).
But aesthetics can also be tools for teaching the player about the map and the game. A Gorge growling under a platform not only adds to the mood but it alerts Marines to its presence. Here, gameplay + aesthetics are combining to make the game stronger. This is why my second point was about how the lighting scaling from Marine (bright) to Alien (dark) territory is a signposting system for the player in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1680976:date=Jun 12 2008, 10:01 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bit disappointed in this latest podcast for a few reasons which I'll summarise quckly:
<b>1. Bright Alien environments</b> Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.
It also breaks a strong design point most of NS's maps had. For me, as you enter deeper into Alien territory, the environment should feel more hostile. One of the basic trends in NS has been the movement from well-lit Marine areas to more sombre, more dangerous Alien territory. This not only creates mood but it also acts as a very subtle but very intuitive signposting system: if you're moving towards darker areas you're moving towards where the Aliens are likely to be. This makes a massive improvement to map navigation and helps new players learn maps quickly. As I say, playing with this balance is basically breaking a very effective system that can be harnessed to great reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point! And with dynamic infestation the whole "hostile look process" will give the game more depth. If the Aliens are making progress you should feel threatened by the infestation and the dark rooms and the inviorment around the corners nearby your base. I think we discussed this somewhere in the dynamic infestation thread. If an area becomes infested, life support for these areas is minimized or changed to the Alien's advantage and their conditions, such as lights flickering or very little lighting.
Hive spots could be bright if it is an uninfested area, thus a hive the Aliens haven't captured yet. But as the Aliens begin to spread the infestation around that specific area, the enviorment should change automatically with it.
Anyway, an interesting podcast and good to hear that you're making progress <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
If I'm right Cory is gonna make the new Marine and aliens models, and that means core aspects of the game are almost complete and it's time to do the esthetical ones ...NS2 is getting close my friends.....<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Competitive players <b>do</b> keep their gamma at a suitable level. We like it higher than you do. Blinding us with the hera marine start followed by that dark tunnel toward Maintenance just makes the people who want to play the game at its deepest levels unlikely to use your map (which is one of the reasons why we never pug hera).
<!--quoteo(post=1681062:date=Jun 13 2008, 06:05 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 13 2008, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said aesthetics aren't important. Go back and read my post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did read your post, that's how I chopped it into two sections to quote it. It didn't make sense because you were arguing on the one hand for atmosphere, then you turned around and argued for how unimportant atmosphere really is (which is true).
<!--quoteo(post=1681040:date=Jun 12 2008, 05:32 PM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Raven_XI @ Jun 12 2008, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, how cool would it be if after the hive was put up, dynamic infestation blocked out the windows so sun couldnt get in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, we were just talking about this yesterday. I think we're going to try it.
<!--quoteo(post=1681042:date=Jun 12 2008, 08:26 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Jun 12 2008, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if anyone has played DOD:source, they will notice that if they go from a dark room out into sunlight, they will be slightly blinded, or at least have their vision reduced, like in real life, and NS2 could have this same effect. so if this bright hiveroom had very dark corridors leading into it, every marine would be temporarily blinded when entering it, giving the aliens a strong advantage....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was replaying Half-Life 2, and just after Ravenholm, I was coming up out of the old mine shaft into the light...
...and I thought of this thread and its discussion, which suddenly seemed so moot and pointless.
The light in Source is just not working the same way we remember in Half-Life 1. Gamma changes didn't seem to make a bit of difference, the situation was still blinding, in that light seemed brighter and shadows seemed darker.
Marines walking/running/flying into a Hive area that is well lit and they are entering from a dark, shaded area are going to get waxed by everything they don't see, unless something changes from what I experienced in HL2 and the episodes. If they live long enough to actually have their in game eyes adjust to the light, its the Kharaa's fault for not protecting their Hive. At least, that's my take on it.
Though there is that open area that might seem to favor jet packers ... I just had an idea, what if Kharaa developed either a structure or life form ability that were anti-air: air bio-pod mines, manhack-like things, those damn rolly-polly electro-mine things ... and I wonder why Marine's wouldn't want something similar to deal with Lerks...
There is just a lot possible with Source, as demonstrated by HL2 and company, I'm not sure exactly why folks are getting hung up on how things used to be...
Extremely excited to hear about Cory joining the team, I actually clapped when you did on the podcast ^^ The conceptart you produce Cory is just very inspiring so I can imagine that this decision will end up benefiting NS2 a lot.
And about organic design, I like the idea about introducing brighter areas, but they should really not be a part of the hive. And if there was 'cheerful' lighting, it would be contrasted by dark, tight corridors with vines and growth from cracked pods that lies littering about, and secluded rooms which is so overgrown that the skylights would be covered and only the bright direct spotlights of those 'grow lights' can be seen. The rest is of the room is pretty dark. The general lighting just can't be too bright, but it could be contrasted by locations such as the one in the picture of course; I'd love to see that particular setting in-game myself and at least stray away from the usual setting of a sci-fi.
Thanks everyone, I'm excited to officially be part of the full time NS2 team.
A few things about the concept.
1. A concept like this is designed to convey mood, show some prop ideas, and start defining a style for the map and the texture set. The general size/layout/architecture is merely there to support the image, not meant to be taken as any kind of definitive map room blueprint. We are always going to be focused on gameplay, and the room layouts will continue to evolve and change based largely on how it plays, not just on how it looks. In the end, this room may not even end up being a hive room.
2. Don't worry that suddenly all the maps are going to be sun drenched and bright. The brighter feel is more a focus of this particular map, and even then every room and hallway of this biodome map will not have this same level of brightness. There will be plenty of darker shadowed areas for the aliens to skulk around in. If you look closely at this concept, even, you can see on the far left side another room area which is mostly in the dark, with the vegetation pods glowing.
3. Don't forget, NS is not about the "good" marines and the "evil" aliens. It may seem appropriate from a marine perspective to have all the alien areas be dark and creepy, because they are the enemy. But NS allows you to play from the alien perspective, as well, and they are trying to survive the marine "invasion" as well. So a little more ambiguity in the lighting I think is appropriate. And, don't forget, an area doesn't just have to have no light to feel creepy and dramatic. Mist, infestation, spore particles in the air, sound effects can all combine to the the same effect.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1681087:date=Jun 14 2008, 04:13 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 14 2008, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Don't worry that suddenly all the maps are going to be sun drenched and bright.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> lets not have two maps look the same i say! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> e.g. veil / eclipse
<!--quoteo(post=1680969:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:45 AM:name=ChromeAngel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChromeAngel @ Jun 12 2008, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since most lighting in Source is pre-compiled into the map (unlike say doom3) I doubt dynamic infestation will be able to block light from the sky. I can see UWE have been influenced by the popularity of sunny FPS environments like Farcry and Dust, but it strikes me as really bad news for the team without guns.
Kind of disappointed you didn't talk more about the marines purcahsing weapons whose prototype proved so contentious following the last podcast.
Very pleased to hear squeal joining the team full time, I think his influence and inspiration it will bring a great improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not very familiar with the workings of the Source engine but the Unreal Engine has something called Emitters and Projectors and you can use either to 'fake' light that can be projected onto any surface. With some bit of work, you can make them dynamic to a certain degree. After only playing through HL2 and not the recent episodes or games based on the Source engine, I'm pretty sure the Source engine has something similar so this shouldn't be a tremendous issue.
As for the post, I'm glad to have you aboard Cory!
I tend to agree with Charlies comment to spending many hours playing in a more beautiful enviroment. It is more appealing towards the player. Look at Crysis and its maps, i guarantee the people who have played this game would prefer replaying the maps in the sunshine with the crystal clear ocean because of the simple fact that is beautiful. Indeed also in Counterstrike Source, which map is played in a vigorous fashion? De_dust2. I believe this because the map is one of the more appealing of the lot and beacuse its great and easy to navigate. Maybe the developers are trying to create a new atmosphere for new comming players so they can enjoy the 'new' game as much as we loved ns1. ('New' always being a big seller.) But anywho you be the judge and in my opinion the new look is outstanding. The ideas that you guys are creating are absolutely genius and well thought upon. I cannot wait for the game.
Comments
Well off the top of my head, ns_veil, all the hives are darker than MS. If not in actual actual lighting, the textures are darker
<!--quoteo(post=1681012:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 12 2008, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I even remember hearing about how hives may not have predetermined spots (I think I heard that, anyway) and at this point in the development stage maybe the dev's don't even know how they want hives to work. I'd think this concept piece was used more for getting the 'feel' of the map rather than source material for individual rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a good point. This area of the map may not be ideal for a hive location, but the are probably other better places to create a "hive room".
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1681013:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:38 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem here is that it would mean Marines no longer have to check for cloaked Hives by firing at them or moving into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a non-issue since either the presence of DI will signify the hive before the lack of light, or DI can be created by other means.
Yay for Cory!
Maybe it's just me but the hive looks like a big eye-ball (because of this line in the middle, like the eye of mordor or whatever it was called)
creepy! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Most important of getting awesome comp play is to have a lot of players.
Second would be the Vet-friendly learning curve.
To get lots of people to play do whatever. Kill people, make deals with Satan, whatever.
...Is your concept art gamma hacking?
It would be logical that DI would only spread to announce an Alien presence once the Hive was fully grown and active. If it did so before it would alert hostiles to the presence of Hive 0 Aliens and a non-healing, non-respawning, non-functional Hive.
It would be logical that DI would only spread to announce an Alien presence once the Hive was fully grown and active. If it did so before it would alert hostiles to the presence of Hive 0 Aliens and a non-healing, non-respawning, non-functional Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a cloaked growing hive isn't putting out DI(which I agree makes the most sense), then there's no DI to block the light...
edit:typo
<!--quoteo(post=1680976:date=Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 12 2008, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is, because we're going to eventually ignore the aesthetic elements of NS2, it needs to be dark and scary so that it's atmospheric-enough?
The current atmosphere of NS is dark and subtle and doesn't detract from gameplay. Having a bright and open environment brings it to the front, both changing the mood and making it more prominent in gameplay.
Also, I wish you guys would drop more gameplay hints in the podcasts, I think that's what we all really want to hear <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> No commitments or promises necessary, I'd just like to hear what the devs are thinking about when it comes to the actual game design.
<img src="http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/f/2008/164/3/0/NS2_Biosphere_1680x1050_by_Th3Juic3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm realy looking forward to this game. i hope is going to be as great as it sounds <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you make us another wallpaper from the J! modded version? pls:)
It seems like you guys are portraying "darkness" as something evil... Of course to get a good game you should not have areas where you can't see, but darkness can also be fairly well lit (so you can still see) next to brighter areas to set a contrast... To me the concept art of the hive area is too bright, it needs shadowy/darker areas. The thing that made me love NS was the fact that shadows and lights were playing nice with each other. Dark areas should use damaged/flickering lights for added danger to move in as a marine (I mean look at the NS1 trailer! That is not dark, but does feel dark and scary <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />)
Fact is to make things look good in goldSRC and source, you have to make use off good dark/light contrast. They simply cannot live without eachother or you would either have way too dark areas or washed out areas... Kind of like taking a picture of a sunset at auto settings vs long shutterspeed+ND filter. A lot more contrast+richness of colors will be had with the manual settings.
Lights (or spots) should be used to bring areas of interest or really good architecture into focus, while darker areas can obscure the generic corridors, the combination of both will enhance atmosphere and produce hiding places (hive area unsafe for marine kind of gameplay element?). I certainly hope NS2 will not be washed out like this particular concept art hive area, which is trying to compensate the washed out bit with a colorexplosion of green...
No offence Cory just an observation of the lighting, the art itself is awesome. I'm just not a fan of the lighting theme used <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I like the dark+light combo of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/screenshots/envconcept11.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> particular shot better, it is bright and well lit, but still has enough shadow to create the contrast that made NS1
[edit]
I'll listen to the podcast tomorrow!
Also, how cool would it be if after the hive was put up, dynamic infestation blocked out the windows so sun couldnt get in?
That said, how do you create something ominous accordingly with the setting but not oppressive? It's probably a difficult balance.
exactly the reason why there should be a few really bright areas, so that any fool that turns his gamma/brightness way up will be blinded. it will finally make them keep their settings at a suitable level, so they can appreciate the whole map, and view it as the mapper intended it to look.
remember people we dont know how the dev's will use lighting effects in NS2. as wankalot said previously, those rays of light looked strong enough to obscure vision. so there could be light blur effects when looking up at the hive with the sunlight behind it.
if anyone has played DOD:source, they will notice that if they go from a dark room out into sunlight, they will be slightly blinded, or at least have their vision reduced, like in real life, and NS2 could have this same effect. so if this bright hiveroom had very dark corridors leading into it, every marine would be temporarily blinded when entering it, giving the aliens a strong advantage....
EXACLY
wow.. one of the best comments I have seen to date.
Also makes logical sense that after all the hives the aliens have made, they eventually hit a room that has some light in it. It's not as if they are vulnerable to light, where they would only nest in darkened rooms. Actually now that I think about it, I can remember another room that had good lighting in it, the hive in Origin, it kind of reminds me of this, and it has a lot of greenery around it also, and that worked out fine, so whats the big deal with having light in a room with a hive, especially givin the fact of how many dark hives there are.
Tis a breath of fresh air.
Ah but it isn't one room. Were talking about concept art here, this may be the only concept piece that is developed for the whole map. Imagine a whole map in that style, that's what it's about.
bind f11 "setgamma 3"
bind f12 "setgamma 1"
Aesthetics are what hook players initially and draw them into the game. They are massively important. However, with multiplayer games the more you play, the more you focus on how the rules of the game interact and the less you care about the aesthetics (assuming they are aesthetics that have no major impact -or can be made to have no major impact- on gameplay).
But aesthetics can also be tools for teaching the player about the map and the game. A Gorge growling under a platform not only adds to the mood but it alerts Marines to its presence. Here, gameplay + aesthetics are combining to make the game stronger. This is why my second point was about how the lighting scaling from Marine (bright) to Alien (dark) territory is a signposting system for the player in NS.
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<b>@locallyunscene:</b> you win!
<b>1. Bright Alien environments</b>
Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.
It also breaks a strong design point most of NS's maps had. For me, as you enter deeper into Alien territory, the environment should feel more hostile. One of the basic trends in NS has been the movement from well-lit Marine areas to more sombre, more dangerous Alien territory. This not only creates mood but it also acts as a very subtle but very intuitive signposting system: if you're moving towards darker areas you're moving towards where the Aliens are likely to be. This makes a massive improvement to map navigation and helps new players learn maps quickly. As I say, playing with this balance is basically breaking a very effective system that can be harnessed to great reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point! And with dynamic infestation the whole "hostile look process" will give the game more depth. If the Aliens are making progress you should feel threatened by the infestation and the dark rooms and the inviorment around the corners nearby your base. I think we discussed this somewhere in the dynamic infestation thread. If an area becomes infested, life support for these areas is minimized or changed to the Alien's advantage and their conditions, such as lights flickering or very little lighting.
Hive spots could be bright if it is an uninfested area, thus a hive the Aliens haven't captured yet. But as the Aliens begin to spread the infestation around that specific area, the enviorment should change automatically with it.
Anyway, an interesting podcast and good to hear that you're making progress <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1681062:date=Jun 13 2008, 06:05 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 13 2008, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said aesthetics aren't important. Go back and read my post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did read your post, that's how I chopped it into two sections to quote it. It didn't make sense because you were arguing on the one hand for atmosphere, then you turned around and argued for how unimportant atmosphere really is (which is true).
Heh, we were just talking about this yesterday. I think we're going to try it.
I was replaying Half-Life 2, and just after Ravenholm, I was coming up out of the old mine shaft into the light...
...and I thought of this thread and its discussion, which suddenly seemed so moot and pointless.
The light in Source is just not working the same way we remember in Half-Life 1. Gamma changes didn't seem to make a bit of difference, the situation was still blinding, in that light seemed brighter and shadows seemed darker.
Marines walking/running/flying into a Hive area that is well lit and they are entering from a dark, shaded area are going to get waxed by everything they don't see, unless something changes from what I experienced in HL2 and the episodes. If they live long enough to actually have their in game eyes adjust to the light, its the Kharaa's fault for not protecting their Hive. At least, that's my take on it.
Though there is that open area that might seem to favor jet packers ... I just had an idea, what if Kharaa developed either a structure or life form ability that were anti-air: air bio-pod mines, manhack-like things, those damn rolly-polly electro-mine things ... and I wonder why Marine's wouldn't want something similar to deal with Lerks...
There is just a lot possible with Source, as demonstrated by HL2 and company, I'm not sure exactly why folks are getting hung up on how things used to be...
The conceptart you produce Cory is just very inspiring so I can imagine that this decision will end up benefiting NS2 a lot.
And about organic design, I like the idea about introducing brighter areas, but they should really not be a part of the hive. And if there was 'cheerful' lighting, it would be
contrasted by dark, tight corridors with vines and growth from cracked pods that lies littering about, and secluded rooms which is so overgrown that the skylights would be covered and only the bright direct spotlights of those 'grow lights' can be seen. The rest is of the room is pretty dark.
The general lighting just can't be too bright, but it could be contrasted by locations such as the one in the picture of course; I'd love to see that particular setting in-game myself and at least stray away from the usual setting of a sci-fi.
A few things about the concept.
1. A concept like this is designed to convey mood, show some prop ideas, and start defining a style for the map and the texture set. The general size/layout/architecture is merely there to support the image, not meant to be taken as any kind of definitive map room blueprint. We are always going to be focused on gameplay, and the room layouts will continue to evolve and change based largely on how it plays, not just on how it looks. In the end, this room may not even end up being a hive room.
2. Don't worry that suddenly all the maps are going to be sun drenched and bright. The brighter feel is more a focus of this particular map, and even then every room and hallway of this biodome map will not have this same level of brightness. There will be plenty of darker shadowed areas for the aliens to skulk around in. If you look closely at this concept, even, you can see on the far left side another room area which is mostly in the dark, with the vegetation pods glowing.
3. Don't forget, NS is not about the "good" marines and the "evil" aliens. It may seem appropriate from a marine perspective to have all the alien areas be dark and creepy, because they are the enemy. But NS allows you to play from the alien perspective, as well, and they are trying to survive the marine "invasion" as well. So a little more ambiguity in the lighting I think is appropriate. And, don't forget, an area doesn't just have to have no light to feel creepy and dramatic. Mist, infestation, spore particles in the air, sound effects can all combine to the the same effect.
yay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> lets not have two maps look the same i say! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> e.g. veil / eclipse
Kind of disappointed you didn't talk more about the marines purcahsing weapons whose prototype proved so contentious following the last podcast.
Very pleased to hear squeal joining the team full time, I think his influence and inspiration it will bring a great improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not very familiar with the workings of the Source engine but the Unreal Engine has something called Emitters and Projectors and you can use either to 'fake' light that can be projected onto any surface. With some bit of work, you can make them dynamic to a certain degree.
After only playing through HL2 and not the recent episodes or games based on the Source engine, I'm pretty sure the Source engine has something similar so this shouldn't be a tremendous issue.
As for the post, I'm glad to have you aboard Cory!
Look at Crysis and its maps, i guarantee the people who have played this game would prefer replaying the maps in the sunshine with the crystal clear ocean because of the simple fact that is beautiful.
Indeed also in Counterstrike Source, which map is played in a vigorous fashion? De_dust2. I believe this because the map is one of the more appealing of the lot and beacuse its great and easy to navigate.
Maybe the developers are trying to create a new atmosphere for new comming players so they can enjoy the 'new' game as much as we loved ns1. ('New' always being a big seller.)
But anywho you be the judge and in my opinion the new look is outstanding. The ideas that you guys are creating are absolutely genius and well thought upon. I cannot wait for the game.
Matt.