Why the old NS1 updates did not remove the scripts abuses? & general thoughts about scripting...
Egoras
Join Date: 2008-07-07 Member: 64581Members
Join Date: 2008-07-07 Member: 64581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This is for both players (...or ex-players) and Flayra & Co.</div>Hi there, I am from Argentina, I come in peace... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
I have been around here some time ago, I played in g4back2school (or something like that) and some other servers but now I'm just playing in my country, where, by the way, no one has steam, everything is no-steam and it sucks but that's another story...
I returned here because after some research (mostly ENSL and ANSL forums) I discovered two things about scripts:
1) There are some scripts that are permited, like the pistol script.
2) There are some scripts that are not permited, like the lerk + max_fps script.
I was wondering, why didn't the developers blocked the scripts with the updates?
I was also wondering, why is the pistol script considered valid? We had a long discussion in our forums, mainly the arguments were the following:
- Pistol script doubles your normal fire rate, it makes you fire at a rate that you will never possibly achieve. If by training you arrive to that double firing rate, then you are again at half speed when not using the script. It's a never-reaching goal, a paradox. You will never be able to achieve double rate of fire with training.
Responses were:
- Scripts are available to everyone, so they are not to be considered an advantage. (in fact one guy posted the script). Counter response: if I posted cheats, making them available to everyone, would they be considered valid? Counter counter response: cheats are not fun, it's not fun for someone to aim for you, that's what the game is about. Counter counter counter response: scripts are not fun, it's not fun for someone to facilitate you stuff or make you fire faster, that's what the game is about.
- Scripts are part of the game, they are just configuration, tweaking. Counter response: they are indeed, "part of the game", but at the same time they are not. In fact, there is nothing in the game that tells you how to use the console or make configs. You must explore/google/whatever to find out how to code stuff. On the other hand, I see the game as sitting down and playing, not going to windows to write some lines to fire faster. Firing faster should be achieved by finger-training, nothing more. On the other hand, remember that CPL didn't allowed you to even change the brightness setting or alt-tab.
- So bunny hop should also be prohibited, because it gives advantage. Counter response: bunny hop is achievable through training.
- What about a good mouse, headset or monitor? Those also give advantages... Counter response: those are factors that depend on money, as in every sport/game that requires equipment. You can have a good pair of sneakers, or even a better one. There is nothing practical we can do about it.
- If you are not good without scripts, then you will not be good with them. Counter response: if you ARE good, then you will clearly be better with them. If you have perfect aim, with pistol script you will simply kill skulks in half the time you would without it.
Note: I know nothing about scripting and I was told that the pistol script makes you fire two shots instead of one, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Goodbye and thank you for your time and answers, I hope that if this has been already exhaustively discussed then the arguments posted provide another -interesting- point of view.
Egoras
I have been around here some time ago, I played in g4back2school (or something like that) and some other servers but now I'm just playing in my country, where, by the way, no one has steam, everything is no-steam and it sucks but that's another story...
I returned here because after some research (mostly ENSL and ANSL forums) I discovered two things about scripts:
1) There are some scripts that are permited, like the pistol script.
2) There are some scripts that are not permited, like the lerk + max_fps script.
I was wondering, why didn't the developers blocked the scripts with the updates?
I was also wondering, why is the pistol script considered valid? We had a long discussion in our forums, mainly the arguments were the following:
- Pistol script doubles your normal fire rate, it makes you fire at a rate that you will never possibly achieve. If by training you arrive to that double firing rate, then you are again at half speed when not using the script. It's a never-reaching goal, a paradox. You will never be able to achieve double rate of fire with training.
Responses were:
- Scripts are available to everyone, so they are not to be considered an advantage. (in fact one guy posted the script). Counter response: if I posted cheats, making them available to everyone, would they be considered valid? Counter counter response: cheats are not fun, it's not fun for someone to aim for you, that's what the game is about. Counter counter counter response: scripts are not fun, it's not fun for someone to facilitate you stuff or make you fire faster, that's what the game is about.
- Scripts are part of the game, they are just configuration, tweaking. Counter response: they are indeed, "part of the game", but at the same time they are not. In fact, there is nothing in the game that tells you how to use the console or make configs. You must explore/google/whatever to find out how to code stuff. On the other hand, I see the game as sitting down and playing, not going to windows to write some lines to fire faster. Firing faster should be achieved by finger-training, nothing more. On the other hand, remember that CPL didn't allowed you to even change the brightness setting or alt-tab.
- So bunny hop should also be prohibited, because it gives advantage. Counter response: bunny hop is achievable through training.
- What about a good mouse, headset or monitor? Those also give advantages... Counter response: those are factors that depend on money, as in every sport/game that requires equipment. You can have a good pair of sneakers, or even a better one. There is nothing practical we can do about it.
- If you are not good without scripts, then you will not be good with them. Counter response: if you ARE good, then you will clearly be better with them. If you have perfect aim, with pistol script you will simply kill skulks in half the time you would without it.
Note: I know nothing about scripting and I was told that the pistol script makes you fire two shots instead of one, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Goodbye and thank you for your time and answers, I hope that if this has been already exhaustively discussed then the arguments posted provide another -interesting- point of view.
Egoras
Comments
Pscript is a little nasty, but its very possible to reach the rate of fire cap even manually. It probably gives you a slight advantage while trying to pistol some fast movement, but once again the difference isn't that tremendous.
If there was money on the line I'd probably want a clear ruleset, but now the advantages small enough and its not such a big deal since the better player wins most of the time.
Scripts are way more logical and easy to get than the HL1 stuff in general anyway. Top CS'ers use 640x400 res for some reasons I can't exactly remember. The same goes for FPS and net settings for NS. Some are necessary for optimizing the performance (fps 90 stops the pg from flashing?) while some give you faster rate of fire and some optimal air behaviour for bhop. You could probably mess around with the sound configs too (unless they're locked cvars in NS) I think those are way more advantageous than the basic scripting. On HL1 you just have to live with the fact that you can't have the exact level playing field.
What's the lerk + fps_max script anyway? I don't think I've heard of that before.
Oh, and my userconfig is something around 5 lines long so I haven't got any real field experience on scripting and the advantages.
The subject is problematic because the console is needed for changing some optimisation/customisation settings that cannot be changed via the options menu, but may be required to fix bugs that only occur with certain hardware. The console is also needed for admins to be able to run their servers properly.
I think UWE should be looking at making all the higher level skills more transparent to new players, so even if they are slightly difficult to do, they are at least aware of their existance from the get-go. A lot of this sort of stuff could be covered in a tutorial of some sort. Just explaining that Bhop is in the game and gives an advantage is better than not understanding how a Gorge managed to outrun you, or how a Skulk was able to close the gap so quickly.
If you give players the knowledge, it's up to them whether they take it or leave it. If you keep them in the dark, ignorance will lead to accusations of cheating and general malaise and bitterness.
Bacillus: is there a pistol fire cap? I thought that there wasn't, that one could always fire faster. So the argument saying that you will always be able to double your fire rate with the script is not valid, isn't it? Anyway, that script in particular was only an example. Another abusing script example is the wiggle walk "marine celerity" script.
I know that there are specific settings to optimize the game (I heard that you could even jump higher with some fps and rate settings, to name one example), but wouldn't it be more convenient that the game developers block this configurations? Wouldn't it be convenient for them to at least block the advantages gained due to the tweaking of fps, rates and so on? Would this be impossible due to the nature of the hl1 engine? For example, would it be possible to block the slightly different movement behaviours at different fps?
I don't know exactly why the lerk script works, I just know that by quickly altering max fps you are more difficult to hit. I suppose that this has to do with movement nature changing when fps change.
Crispy: if this settings are identified, the developers could then incorporate them into a graphic interface. For admins, they could also have a graphic interface, available to be server-side modificated.
Bye!
PD: has this things been discussed in the NS2 development forums?
The really exploitive scripts are blocked (those were the ones using _Special).
Block Scripts is in the game, if you don't like scripts play on a BS 1 server. (this will block 3jump and pscripts)
The reliance on FPS with certain actions I believe has been removed at this point also.
The fire rate was added as a direct response to the pistol script. That was a while ago, back in 1.04 or 2.0 I think. Similarly, while a wiggle walk is still available, it's no longer silent and it's harder to do. I don't know if there is still a script for it. There probably is but it's much more limited like the current pistol script.
<!--quoteo(post=1682781:date=Jul 8 2008, 08:36 AM:name=Egoras)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Egoras @ Jul 8 2008, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that there are specific settings to optimize the game (I heard that you could even jump higher with some fps and rate settings, to name one example), but wouldn't it be more convenient that the game developers block this configurations? Wouldn't it be convenient for them to at least block the advantages gained due to the tweaking of fps, rates and so on? Would this be impossible due to the nature of the hl1 engine? For example, would it be possible to block the slightly different movement behaviours at different fps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As <b>Crispy</b> said, the rate commands and other console commands are needed for players with different specs on their hardware/network configuration. Maybe UWE should think about adding GUIs for that stuff in the settings menus but that seems like an endless task. Pointless to when it would only be used by a small subset of players.
Also a lot of the abilities that were framerate dependent in NS1 were slowly changed to remove exploits. It's started with the flashlight trick and building, then leap, and charge had their FPS dependencies removed. More recently pancaking for lerk was nerfed, but I think that had more to do with flight physics than rate changes.
Basically the devs pay attention to the scripts, exploits, and other non-skill dependent tweaks that have the potential to break the game, but leave anything trivial alone. That's why there are still pistol scripts, but no one really cares much about them any more. The old pistol script was broken, the new one is 'meh'.
Have you used a ps?
If you hit click to much it doesn't work, you have to have a small gap between each click to get it right, and it is most defiantly achievable without the script.
- JazzX<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Bunnyhopping isnt too hard, just requires good timing and half-decent mouse twitch skills. I never needed a script for that...
I agree script are very helpful in the non exploitive way. I had scripts rebind keys to bring the ones i use the most closer at hand depending on the class i was playing. Different setting for a lerk, skulk or fade. Why waste time rebinding it via the menu when i can bind a key to run a script and change what i need in 1 sec.
Would suck to block this because of a few exploiters and penalise all the people who use them legitimately imo
I think the wigglewalk script is still there, but its not very useful. As far as I know, you can use it to gain some speed on safe locations, but not on firefights or dangerous situations. The problem is that the script 'locks you up' while its being executed, so you can't dodge or probably even aim properly.
Feel free to correct me. I think I've seen a wigglewalk script once on some old hltv demo and haven't tried any of those scripts myself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I heard that you could even jump higher with some fps and rate settings, to name one example<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jump heights are always the same. High fps causes a weird floating effect, which mostly makes bhopping a bit different.
I could see fps limited to a 100 or 150 for example, but that wouldn't solve the whole problem, since even the usual 0-100 range is enough to allow variations in rate of fire and such.
FPS doesn't effect your speed.
true wiggle walk scripts were dumb as all get out (assuming after the blocking of _special)
cheats will not get you up to the RoF cap, it will get you well past (IIRC there are still a few working speed hacks, dono if they are detectable by VAC atm or not).
Saying that PScript is 2 bullets per click is accurate, but misleading.
With out a pscript you can basically mash +attack as fast as you can and then hit the RoF cap.
With the PScript you have to know how the timing works or else you end up firing slower, however the timing is easier to do then mashing your +attack (for some people).
I don't bother with bunny hopping, and thus just bind +attack to MWheel (well, when I still played NS I did, now I just do that in TF2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
About the wiggle walk: this comes to points of view. From my point of view it's still a considerable advantage because you can use it in situations when you are certain there are no aliens nearby (at the very beggining of the game, when having motion, etc.). From my point of view it should be completely banned (maybe disable the speed gain).
By the way, are macros hack? Do macros make you wiggle walk faster than a wiggle walk script? Do macros make you break the pistol firing rate cap? In my community there are some guys using an external program that counts each de-click (when you release the mouse button) as a click (for pistol firing rate) and with a hotkey starts pressing A-D-A-D very fast (for wiggle walk). Some argument that this external program isn't a cheat because the effects can be achieved by legal scripts.
Thank you again!
As long as you are trying to regulate it there will be debate and discussion and different people will consider different things unfair.
A simple example:
"Pistol script = unfair, but buying a mouse that has a low mousewheel resistance = fair."
That's the typical anti-scripter POV.
Now lets add some fun to this:
Opening a mouse and removing the spring from the mousewheel, will results in it being able to to turn freely.
<a href="http://everything2.com/e2node/Hacking%2520your%2520mouse" target="_blank">http://everything2.com/e2node/Hacking%2520your%2520mouse</a>
Great, so we modified a hardware device, instead of using a pistol script. Of course the anti scripter will tell you thats also unfair/cheating, cause you had to modify your hardware.
No problem MR anti-scripter. Bob here will simply manufacture a mouse with no spring to begin with and I will then buy one.
Another few examples that are pretty fun to use in a fair/unfair debate.
-Using lube, to reduce mwheel resistance.
-Overclocking hardware, to get more fps
-Using an inferior shader to get more fps/better view etc.
-Building an extra silent pc (watercooled etc) so you can that sneaky skulk better (totally unfair)
-consuming the right amount of alcohol to improve your leet skillz
The whole point is: Unless you kill all scripters or all antiscripters there will be always dispute.
About the wiggle walk: this comes to points of view. From my point of view it's still a considerable advantage because you can use it in situations when you are certain there are no aliens nearby (at the very beginning of the game, when having motion, etc.). From my point of view it should be completely banned (maybe disable the speed gain).
By the way, are macros hack? Do macros make you wiggle walk faster than a wiggle walk script? Do macros make you break the pistol firing rate cap? In my community there are some guys using an external program that counts each de-click (when you release the mouse button) as a click (for pistol firing rate) and with a hotkey starts pressing A-D-A-D very fast (for wiggle walk). Some argument that this external program isn't a cheat because the effects can be achieved by legal scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the main differences between hacks, scripts, and macros as I see them.
A script is a series of commands that runs within the game. A script may be able to allow you to perform a set of actions faster, but these actions must be legal actions in the game world.
A hack runs outside the game. It usually exploits some piece of information that is not apparent to the player, but is visible to the client. For example, a wall hack uses information sent to the client about the gamestate to display to the "hacker" where the other players are.
A macro also runs outside the game, but unless it starts accessing the game state to make decisions, I wouldn't call it a hack.
This distinction can get a little dubious though. In a game called Armada Online(free alpha currently btw) you can write a macro to autoclick follow on a ship on your screen. It's used to follow other players and try to gain xp/items while AFK. The clicker isn't accessing memory or using any gamestate information not available to the player, but it definitely crosses a line the left-right-left-right macro/script did not.
The fire on mouse click up is an interesting example. Generally macros are considered cheating by more people because they do not come from within the game itself whereas scripts are built into the engine. If the macro is doing the exact same thing as the script then most people wouldn't care. The examples of macros you seem to be talking about are mouse macros which most people would not think twice about since they often do the same things as scripts.
IT WORKS I TELLS YOU!
<!--quoteo(post=1682887:date=Jul 9 2008, 02:06 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jul 9 2008, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fire on mouse click up is an interesting example. Generally macros are considered cheating by more people because they do not come from within the game itself whereas scripts are built into the engine. If the macro is doing the exact same thing as the script then most people wouldn't care. The examples of macros you seem to be talking about are mouse macros which most people would not think twice about since they often do the same things as scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, a macro program (or a programmable keyboard/mouse/gamepad/what not) can do things that you can't do in game. Simply said, you can do things that you would normally need _Special for (Building loops that don't disrupt the rest of your game play),
So I can make something that tells the computer to click 10 times at the RoF Cap with one button press. Or somethign that will turn my forward key into an automatic wiggle walk.
etc etc.
Outside influence is generally a bad thing.
for the most part my belief is that if all you are doing is using in game commands, there is nothing wrong. So bind +attack to your mouse wheel if you want to, doesn't bother me. USe a 3jump (or don't if BS 1 is on), use a wiggle walk script or a PScript.
However a macro is cheating. A programmable mouse/keypad/keyboard/gamepad is cheating.
meh, as was said though. this entire topic has been discussed to death a million times.
If you don't like the rules, go make your own damn server and play with your own rules.
+1
<!--quoteo(post=1682896:date=Jul 9 2008, 02:58 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jul 9 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, a macro program (or a programmable keyboard/mouse/gamepad/what not) can do things that you can't do in game. Simply said, you can do things that you would normally need _Special for (Building loops that don't disrupt the rest of your game play),
So I can make something that tells the computer to click 10 times at the RoF Cap with one button press. Or somethign that will turn my forward key into an automatic wiggle walk.
etc etc.
Outside influence is generally a bad thing.
for the most part my belief is that if all you are doing is using in game commands, there is nothing wrong. So bind +attack to your mouse wheel if you want to, doesn't bother me. USe a 3jump (or don't if BS 1 is on), use a wiggle walk script or a PScript.
However a macro is cheating. A programmable mouse/keypad/keyboard/gamepad is cheating.
meh, as was said though. this entire topic has been discussed to death a million times.
If you don't like the rules, go make your own damn server and play with your own rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, a macro is considered cheating by more people, but it is not the same as a "hack". I think we're of the same mind, but I wanted to distinguish between the two(three really).
<a href="http://xkcd.com/323/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/323/</a>
All they do is half the amount of finger work you have to do. I don't use one, and I cap out the pistol easily... when I was practiced I could reliably whip skulks with more consistency then with the LMG. Even now, I have generally no problem clearing a vent. Stop bawwing and learn to play the game. There are no scripts that provide an unfair advantage.
Your mum killed ns.
The fight over scripting is part of what killed NS.
There is a <i>lot</i> of misinformation about scripts floating around. Back before _special was blocked, some, even many, scripts were indeed abusive. However, since that command was disabled, there is nothing that can be done with scripts that couldn't be done using other means.
For example, the extremely controversial pistol script. I think someone else already corrected the OP, but this script does not change your RoF in any way. What it does do, is fire once on the down-click and then once again on the up-click, instead of one shot per click. Using this script you cannot exceed the engine's RoF limit for the pistol. What basically happens, is you get two shots for each click, which allows you to click at a slower rate, making it easier to keep your aim on target. Using the script and clicking at the same rate you did without it will not actually speed up your RoF because, unless you were clicking really slowly to begin with, you will hit the engine's cap.
On a personal note, I have used a pistol script, and I don't like them, I find I can hit the engine's cap naturally and it doesn't improve my aim noticably, plus it feels better to spam out on the button when there's a skulk in your face. I have, however, written them and custom-tailored them for friends and clanmates.
Another example would be the bunnyhopping script. Just for a point of correctness, there is no script that will bunnyhop for you. I remember someone actually wrote one a few years back as a proof of concept thing, but it was useless in a real game as you cannot control anything other than the direction you are looking while the script is executing.
What most people mean when they refer to a bunnyhopping script is a 3 jump script, or some variation thereof. What a 3 jump script does is quite simple, it makes you jump 3 times for every one press of the spacebar. Very similar to the pistol script. Jumping three times in a row obviously does not make you move faster or jump higher, just as spamming the spacebar wouldn't. What it does do, is give you a little more leeway in timing your jumps when bunnyhopping. Instead of a single jump that you must time perfectly, you get three jumps so close together they may as well be one long one, allowing you to ease off a little on the concentration of your timing and pay more attention to the game. They do, however, have drawbacks. As with any script that takes a measurable amount of time to execute, your keyboard and mouse buttons are locked up while it is running. A 6-frame (the time in frames is aproximately equal to twice the number of jumps) jump sequence may seem incredibly small, but it can interfere with your control. I use a 4 jump, which I arrived at as my personal preference through testing. I tried everything from a 2 jump all the way to 10. Even at 5, you can really notice the loss of control in the instant after you press the spacebar. With a 4 jump, it is still there, but it is easily playable while allowing a maximum of forgiveness in timing. Again, that is my personal preference, others may disagree.
Anyone who remembers me might remember how I was rather infamous in CAL for being one of the biggest scripters in the league. I think the only unmodified keys on my keyboard were WASD.
That said, nothing I ever did could be considered cheating, according to the league admins. The vast majority of my scripts were for pure convience's sake, such as my rebound numpad, which would evolve different upgrades for different keystrokes. For example, NumEnter+Num5 = Celerity. Without the enter key, 5 gets me a med/heal request.
The most useful script I wrote was a modified lastinv. It would remember your last-used weapon, through spawns and anything else, and it would also allow you to quickly switch to and use a third weapon without disturbing it. This was very useful for many things, like being a heavy with a welder for example. Normally I'm on my shotty/HMG, pressing Q would whip out my pistol and vice versa. If I pressed mouse4 (I have a 7 button mouse <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />) it would pull out my welder and weld with it until I let go, at which point it would go back to my last weapon and Q would still switch me between pistol and main.
Whether or not you tl;dr'd that crap, my point is: scripts do nothing that you can't do manually, they just automate it to make things easier and, often, faster. And by faster I don't mean RoF, I mean not having to scramble over 4 or 5 keys to do what could be done with a single one.
However, I gotta wonder, were they really faster for you? I mean, to get to them you have to remove your hand from wither WASD or your mouse, and that extra time could probably surpass the amount of time it takes to use the popmenu. I know when I was actively playing that I could select anything from the menu in a fraction of a second.
How so? All of my scripts pre blockscripts still work besides the pistol and jump with moveup. Yes even all of those dreaded fade scripts still work.....I guess everything is about perception and not content/facts.
MP_blockscripts is like the VAC of anti-cheating, more of an annoyance than a solution.
But at least it's better than nothing.
Bunny hopping is a HUGE part of Natural Selection and timing the jump 'perfectly' with spacebar (default jump key) is tedious and can be impossible on some hardware. Truth is, dam near no one does it. Most people use mousewheel or a scripted spacebar. When ms_blockscripts came out it just made everyone switch to mousewheel, which was a mother ######ing pain in the ass and a lot of competitive players just didn't ######ing bother. A fraction of good players just stopped pubbing - it created a huge rip in the community, all the ######ty players stayed ######ty and eventually the competitive community dwindled as no one actually learned how to play the game to replenish the competitive community.
Anyways... quake style jump timing in NS2, k thanks.
The 3jump isn't the only script blocked. I don't know if any of those scripts make a difference, but I can see people being on the favor of blockscripts as long as they aren't doing it only for 3jump's sake.