Mapping Stuffs
Annihilatorza
Join Date: 2007-01-07 Member: 59490Members
Join Date: 2007-01-07 Member: 59490Members
Hi Charlie and Max
Just a Quick couple of questions, I know you are busy with making a new engine, and tools.
I was wondering if you could give us some details on how the maps will work now since you are not using the Source engine.
Just some details would be great as I know alot of mappers would be keen even just to get there designs down on paper so they can refine them alot but we cant do that unless we know a little of the specs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Also is going to be a unreal style or quake style of engine.
Solid world vs Hollow ?
I much prefer solid no damn leaks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Just a Quick couple of questions, I know you are busy with making a new engine, and tools.
I was wondering if you could give us some details on how the maps will work now since you are not using the Source engine.
Just some details would be great as I know alot of mappers would be keen even just to get there designs down on paper so they can refine them alot but we cant do that unless we know a little of the specs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Also is going to be a unreal style or quake style of engine.
Solid world vs Hollow ?
I much prefer solid no damn leaks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
Just a Quick couple of questions, I know you are busy with making a new engine, and tools.
I was wondering if you could give us some details on how the maps will work now since you are not using the Source engine.
Just some details would be great as I know alot of mappers would be keen even just to get there designs down on paper so they can refine them alot but we cant do that unless we know a little of the specs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Also is going to be a unreal style or quake style of engine.
Solid world vs Hollow ?
I much prefer solid no damn leaks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have already been told that the new engine and tools use the same file formats as Source, so it's safe to assume that aspect of mapping will remain the same. I imagine the gameplay aspect of what goes into an NS2 map is still somewhat up in the air, so stay tuned.
Solid world vs Hollow ?
I much prefer solid no damn leaks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't finalized yet, but it's not really Unreal or Quake style. I generally think that the BSP technology used by those engines is a bit out-dated so we're moving away from that.
Stix, you are officially masochistic.
I must admit I've gotten better at finding the bloody things, but some are so nuanced they're ridiculous. I usually end up using the big block method where you place a huge block and slowly cut away at it until you isolate where the leak is. I personally have issues using the pointfiles, but maybe that's just me being noob.
Worst leak ever was a wall, somehow due to rounding error, was like 0.000001 units off the ground. Plus it was along a hallway, so it took me forever to track it down. Finally just went around moving all the major vertices and re-aligning them to the grid. Worst two hours of my life.
At least now my machine can leak check render in less than 10 minutes.
I guess you haven't been to Finnish Army <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Anyway, anything that makes the life of the mappers easier is probably going to be _big_ for NS2. It's a huge job to create a working map that suits both an rts and a melee-vs-ranged fps and still looks and plays cool.
Aren't all mappers, really?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I usually end up using the big block method where you place a huge block and slowly cut away at it until you isolate where the leak is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've heard people suggest this method, but I've slowly gotten into the habit of doing something totally different. When I build a map, I visgroup every room separately, cutting them apart at the doors / vents / whatever. This way, with the touch of a button, any room can disappear or reappear.
What about the doors and such? I have a separate visgroup called Dividers, which are just basic blocks that separate every room from each other. When I need to isolate a room, I turn on the Dividers, remove the dividers I'll be using for this room from the visgroup, and then hide the visgroup again (leaving only the used dividers behind). Room is perfectly isolated, and can be compiled with full settings in seconds / minutes. Its like a Cordon Bound, except it takes a few seconds more work and a bit more preparation, but it provides a better result. Plus, Cordon Bounds can't check for leaks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally have issues using the pointfiles, but maybe that's just me being noob.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing about Pointfiles is that the Red part is almost always where the leak is. If you fullscreen the 3d view (i prefer the textured one too) and then hit Z (to go into 'fps mode' where you can fly around using in-game controls), you can very easily follow the line. If it cuts through a brush, pay close attention to it. If there's nothing obvious, move on. The worst leaks are the ones that fit through a gap so small its impossible to see with the eye, but the red line will still cross through it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Worst leak ever was a wall, somehow due to rounding error, was like 0.000001 units off the ground. Finally just went around moving all the major vertices and re-aligning them to the grid. Worst two hours of my life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Check my talk about the Epsilon command in HLFix (part of the batch compiler). This can find ALL the misaligned vertices and whatnot that the regular compiler won't, errors which will either produce leaks or simply annihilate your clip quotas and compile time.
It would be great if we can so that we can get a head start on getting a layout done.
Now that got me very intersted on how its going to work but we will just have to wait and see <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Yep Styx there somthing worong with you <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Or you do a point file and you find the leak and no matter how much realigning you do it does not fix it so you have to rebuild the section.
It would be great if we can so that we can get a head start on getting a layout done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any chance we can get an answer on this?
Cheers
I try not to be. But then again I'm a bit impulsive. Like yesterday I plowed through about 8 hours of Fall From Heaven, a Civ4 mod. sometimes I get started and can't stop.
<!--quoteo(post=1686703:date=Aug 27 2008, 12:19 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 27 2008, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've heard people suggest this method, but I've slowly gotten into the habit of doing something totally different. When I build a map, I visgroup every room separately, cutting them apart at the doors / vents / whatever. This way, with the touch of a button, any room can disappear or reappear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oooooooh. Smart. The map I've been picking at for almost 4 years is too convoluted to do this now, but I'll keep that in mind for next time.
<!--quoteo(post=1686703:date=Aug 27 2008, 12:19 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 27 2008, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep. Check my talk about the Epsilon command in HLFix (part of the batch compiler). This can find ALL the misaligned vertices and whatnot that the regular compiler won't, errors which will either produce leaks or simply annihilate your clip quotas and compile time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, why do I have to keep tracking down all the better compilers. I had such a bad time until I found zhltools, then found out there's all these other decompilers/recompilers.... gah!!!!!
Maybe if I start another life consuming project I'll do better research on this stuff.
Its actually very easy to do this anytime. Take a large section of whichever room, and turn it into its own visgroup. Then hide that. Then just go in and manually select whatever brushes are left at the fringes or were missed, and add them into the group. You can turn an entire map into separate visgroup'd rooms in probably less than an hour, if not 20 mins.
I actually had to do this with Nexus all over again one time. I was having compile issues and sent the file to a friend; when he sent it back with some small updates, every single visgroup was gone. I let out a sigh and went at it. Took me less than 30 mins.
Right now our editor actually loads and saves VMF files, but I don't imagine that will survive to the shipping version.
<!--quoteo(post=1686684:date=Aug 26 2008, 09:42 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Aug 26 2008, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like this new editor is going to be a harder leap from Hammer than most people first anticipated...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The construction method is still similar to Hammer (at least for the moment), but we're eliminating the steps like running bsp and vis on the map before you can play it.
That doesn't sound good...
But then again, it would be kind of nice getting some more knowledge on how to use different level editors, escpesially if you want to be a level designer when you get older! Like me!
I wonder how its going to change to and how the building style is going to work.
For the the best editor was the build editor, very easy to use but trying to figure out those damn Secotrs effectrs took me ages to work out how to use them.
There were no such thing as leaks, and making a layout out was very very easy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
how many of you used it ?
I wonder how its going to change to and how the building style is going to work.
For the the best editor was the build editor, very easy to use but trying to figure out those damn Secotrs effectrs took me ages to work out how to use them.
There were no such thing as leaks, and making a layout out was very very easy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
how many of you used it ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehe I remember building a DM level with a hidden security room I only knew about, with security cams, trigger buttons to set of traps or sounds
Good times...
One thing I never could get quite right was the mirrors spent hours on them still no luck, mind you I was alot younger then.
and getting room over room stuff to work right was a real pain the ass. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Still good times.
Im guessing the engine is written in C++, I wonder in what the editor in wirtten in ?