Yahtzee
Kouji_San
Sr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Sr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">versus Eve Online</div>Well let's just say he his usual self again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online" target="_blank">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/vie.../208-Eve-Online</a>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Oh no he didn't...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online" target="_blank">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/vie.../208-Eve-Online</a>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Oh no he didn't...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
Yahtzee hates MMOs.
(no, I haven't watched it yet)
Good stuff, as usual.
--Scythe--
So yeah he pretty much hit the nail on the head w/ EVE. I'm sure it'll piss off the few people who are neck deep in super secret corporate spy wars, but when I played the 14 day trial I had pretty much the exact same experience.
I still <3 Yahtzee.
I still <3 Yahtzee.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No meat, though. Just the skin. Namely the graphics. Very pretty. Too bad they're a wrapper containing only chunky vomit caramel.
Instead I got equivalent win. Good show sir.
He was pretty spot on about EVE. I'll play EVE every now and then when WoW burnout sets in, once I've had my two weeks fill of it, I generally launch straight back into WoW and don't look back.
Now if only there was a space MMO that focused more on the adventure/exploration aspect instead of "Go from point A to point B, which is 4 zillion jumps away, blow up this piddly station in three shots, then come back here and tell me you did it" or "Mine here, bring ore back, refine, rinse, repeat".
I'll have to check out more of this guy's vids, the EVE one had me in stitches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Video wise, yeah, ZP is the only quality video series The Escapist has. I've noticed a trend though, that when websites pick up a decent, weekly video series, they feel like they need to then become a video portal, expanding until they have a different series updating every day of the week.. Except all the other series suck and no one really pays any attention to them.
Outside of videos though the escapist really isn't that bad, the articles are often a refreshing change from what is more usually written about gaming, which is a stream of rumors, press releases, fanboyism, more rumors, hype and mainstream media fear-mongering... oh, and cakes.
<a href="http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/" target="_blank">psst over here</a>, although it still isn't up for release for a long time.
For one, I like the ability to train my skills while I'm offline. It allows you to pace your character at a steady rate and lets you take a more casual approach to the game while still advancing through content. Mind you, without money you can't utilize those skills to the fullest, and the only way you make cash is through actually being online. The system works exceedingly well and I was surprised that he actually <i>dissed</i> it rather than praising it.
Another point is his complaint about the number of weapons out of reach at the beginning of your career. By the end of the first week, there's an entire arsenal of weapons available to you that it becomes hard to choose even at that point in time what to use -- you're already overwhelmed as a new player. Not being able to access the other 95% of the content isn't exactly <i>bad</i> when 5% of that content is more than most games offer you over their entire span of play from A to Z or 1 to 70.
Other than that he had it spot on, as in it's not a very good game for people with little patience or a short attention span...like Yahtzee. I was disappointed how quickly he blazed past all of the finer points in the game, but what would you expect from someone that doesn't do a tiny bit of research on what skills do what? (like read the manual, ask in a chat channel or go look it up somewhere on the internet)
If that isn't some kind of sick hoax, I may die happy.
Instead I got equivalent win. Good show sir.
He was pretty spot on about EVE. I'll play EVE every now and then when WoW burnout sets in, once I've had my two weeks fill of it, I generally launch straight back into WoW and don't look back.
Now if only there was a space MMO that focused more on the adventure/exploration aspect instead of "Go from point A to point B, which is 4 zillion jumps away, blow up this piddly station in three shots, then come back here and tell me you did it" or "Mine here, bring ore back, refine, rinse, repeat".
I'll have to check out more of this guy's vids, the EVE one had me in stitches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, this has been said hundreds of times but running missions in EvE pretty much defeats the purpose of the game. I mean, the higher level ones are alright for money and can be kind of exciting because they get difficult but you are missing out on what makes EvE fun if all you do is sit around by yourself mindlessly killing NPCs. This is something a lot of people have a hard time overcoming because "structured" fun is what most MMOs are built around while EvE relies on you coming up with your own entertainment. Small fleet combat/pirating/group activities are what makes EvE fun it's just that most people don't have the patience necessary to wait the 1-2 months required before you can really get into the higher level activites (this time is used to train skills and get enough money to become self sufficient.)
For one, I like the ability to train my skills while I'm offline. It allows you to pace your character at a steady rate and lets you take a more casual approach to the game while still advancing through content. Mind you, without money you can't utilize those skills to the fullest, and the only way you make cash is through actually being online. The system works exceedingly well and I was surprised that he actually <i>dissed</i> it rather than praising it.
Another point is his complaint about the number of weapons out of reach at the beginning of your career. By the end of the first week, there's an entire arsenal of weapons available to you that it becomes hard to choose even at that point in time what to use -- you're already overwhelmed as a new player. Not being able to access the other 95% of the content isn't exactly <i>bad</i> when 5% of that content is more than most games offer you over their entire span of play from A to Z or 1 to 70.
Other than that he had it spot on, as in it's not a very good game for people with little patience or a short attention span...like Yahtzee. I was disappointed how quickly he blazed past all of the finer points in the game, but what would you expect from someone that doesn't do a tiny bit of research on what skills do what? (like read the manual, ask in a chat channel or go look it up somewhere on the internet)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turns out this new mouse has a "bollocks everything up" button positioned right under my thumb which deleted my carefully typed response to this. Twice. I'm going to explain exactly why you're wrong for later but for now...
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> You're wrong. </span>
Infinity Combat Prototype (ICP) should make you believe <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Last time I played that it was around version 1.1 and was actually quite fun (altough unpolished) and also had pretty graphics. It has actually has been in development longer then NS2 and Spore, I think...
The game is entirely programmed by one guy, Flavien Brebion (Not sure if this is still the case though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). And all of the universe will be created with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation" target="_blank">Procedural generation</a>
[edit]procedural gen vs filesize... anyone remember this one <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger</a>
There's also <a href="http://www.startrekonline.com/" target="_blank">Star Trek Online</a> coming up at some point, though I would estimate it to have a 65.4666% chance of suckage.
A game that requires patience before you can have fun also does not have good gameplay.
The point of games is to be fun, from the moment you start it up till you get bored of it and close it. If the game is not structured in a way to enable this fun than it is broken. Statements like "you need to get to level 50 before it really gets fun" are just stupid. No game should require such a ridiculous time commitment before you get to the fun.
I take issue with a lot of the other things people have said in this thread praising Eve, but unfortunately do not have the time to respond further. I must get ready for my day. Let's just say I agree with Nil and leave it at that.
A game that requires patience before you can have fun also does not have good gameplay.</b>[<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->citation needed<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->]
The point of games is to be fun, from the moment you start it up till you get bored of it and close it. If the game is not structured in a way to enable this fun than it is broken. Statements like "you need to get to level 50 before it really gets fun" are just stupid. No game should require such a ridiculous time commitment before you get to the fun.
I take issue with a lot of the other things people have said in this thread praising Eve, but unfortunately do not have the time to respond further. I must get ready for my day. Let's just say I agree with Nil and leave it at that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because "fun" is completely quantitative and not subjective at all. All those people who enjoy EvE ARE WRONG.
Give me a break.
Also, at the early levels EvE is still tons of fun. Infact I might say some of the best times I had was within the first week of the game. Getting my first real frigate (condor ftw), joining my first player corp (free stuff!), getting my first 1 on 1 pvp kill...
edit: Discozombie: That's not even close to the correct counter arguement. Chatting has nothing to do with EvE. EvE is a PvP game plain and simple. Any PvE content is there as a means to an end (that end being PvP). If you are not attacking or working against another player, you are not playing EvE. Infact let me bold that.
<b>If you are not killing/fighting/working against other players you are not playing EvE. Missions are not EvE, high-sec mining is not EvE. If you are able to play without you or somebody close to you having a warp scrambler fitted you are most likely doing it wrong. </b>
Unforgotten Realms...
Give me a break.
Also, at the early levels EvE is still tons of fun. Infact I might say some of the best times I had was within the first week of the game. Getting my first real frigate (condor ftw), joining my first player corp (free stuff!), getting my first 1 on 1 pvp kill...
edit: Discozombie: That's not even close to the correct counter arguement. Chatting has nothing to do with EvE. EvE is a PvP game plain and simple. Any PvE content is there as a means to an end (that end being PvP). If you are not attacking or working against another player, you are not playing EvE. Infact let me bold that.
<b>If you are not killing/fighting/working against other players you are not playing EvE. Missions are not EvE, high-sec mining is not EvE. If you are able to play without you or somebody close to you having a warp scrambler fitted you are most likely doing it wrong. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, let me rephrase/elaborate.
I am referring to "fun" and "well designed gameplay" as the same thing. I will try to differentiate between these a little more, I have been referring to them as the same thing because the point of designing a game is to make it fun to play.
People can have fun by running around the hallways in NS playing chase the gorge, but if the actual "classic mode" gameplay is not fun, the game as a whole is <strike>not fun</strike> badly designed. It is the community coming up with stuff to do that makes it fun. If this is the case, I wouldn't call it a "fun game" because the element of fun is not originating from the game design but instead from the community you play it with.
If a game is like this, <b>the game is not enabling the fun</b>. This is a bad thing. This is what I take issue with.
I have not played EvE personally and so I can't judge if it is this sort of game or not. I know many of the games we have played in these forums have been of this type- only fun because I was playing it with all of you. I was making these statements on game design based on what others were saying about the game...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not a very good game for people with little patience or a short attention span<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is where the patience gripe comes in. I have this issue with MMOs as well. A game designer should not force the player to grind in order to get to a point where they can have fun.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Missions are not EvE, high-sec mining is not EvE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If these things are not part of what makes EvE fun, why are they in the game? It seems to me that those elements should be redesigned to be more fun, or should be taken out so more emphasis can be placed on what you consider EvE to actually be. The fact that they are in and are not fun degrades the quality of the game as a whole.
p.s. These were just some of my opinions on game design, not quotes from someone else:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game where the game is not fun unless you make your own stuff to do in it is not a fun game.
A game that requires patience before you can have fun also does not have good gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm that far off base, then I have even MORE trouble understanding how anyone could enjoy the game. So the whole point of the game is to farm isk for hours or days or weeks to be able to afford a ship that you then fly into battle and have like a 50% shot of losing? I would rather pass a kidney stone than play EVE, then.
Haha, I didn't even read that part of Xyth's post because it was addressed to you, but that's pretty funny... Slavehack was kind of like that too... though we all got bored of that pretty quick. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I am referring to "fun" and "well designed gameplay" as the same thing. I will try to differentiate between these a little more, I have been referring to them as the same thing because the point of designing a game is to make it fun to play.
People can have fun by running around the hallways in NS playing chase the gorge, but if the actual "classic mode" gameplay is not fun, the game as a whole is <strike>not fun</strike> badly designed. It is the community coming up with stuff to do that makes it fun. If this is the case, I wouldn't call it a "fun game" because the element of fun is not originating from the game design but instead from the community you play it with.
<b>If a game is like this, [b]the game is not enabling the fun</b>. This is a bad thing. This is what I take issue with.[/b]
I have not played EvE personally and so I can't judge if it is this sort of game or not. I know many of the games we have played in these forums have been of this type- only fun because I was playing it with all of you. I was making these statements on game design based on what others were saying about the game...
This is where the patience gripe comes in. I have this issue with MMOs as well. A game designer should not force the player to grind in order to get to a point where they can have fun.
If these things are not part of what makes EvE fun, why are they in the game? It seems to me that those elements should be redesigned to be more fun, or should be taken out so more emphasis can be placed on what you consider EvE to actually be. The fact that they are in and are not fun degrades the quality of the game as a whole.
p.s. These were just some of my opinions on game design, not quotes from someone else:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand what you are saying. However PvP is not just a side system in EvE, it's the main attraction of the game. 70% of content that is added to EvE is not PvE based, it is PvP. Take WoW for example (though I know this won't be completely correct) most of the items in WoW are designed to fight NPCs. For example people who farm equipment in order to compete in a higher level dungeon. The sole purpose of that equipment/dungeon is to allow players to go into OTHER dungeons. Those additions are purely for the PvE part of the game. It is essentially a PvE based game.
This does not exist in EvE. When an item is added to the game it is intended to be used on other players. For example, the Interdictor is a class of ship thats sole purpose is to stop players from running away. It does not carry many weapons, all it has is a big deployable anti-warp bubble. This ship serves no purposes vs NPCs. Same with warp scramblers/most EW/Heavy 'dictor/titan/dreadnaught/POSes (and every POS fitting other then the few mining ones)/tons of other items.
They just added a huge change to the game (faction warfare) to allow players to more easily find people to kill. It's been a long time since they've added any "significant" to PvE bones of the game(not to say they don't, there are regularly added new missions, they did added exploration not that long ago, added salvaging...). I know you said you haven't played the game, but I assume you kind of understand what I'm saying?
<!--quoteo(post=1687390:date=Sep 4 2008, 04:54 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Sep 4 2008, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I'm that far off base, then I have even MORE trouble understanding how anyone could enjoy the game. So the whole point of the game is to farm isk for hours or days or weeks to be able to afford a ship that you then fly into battle and have like a 50% shot of losing? I would rather pass a kidney stone than play EVE, then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you known how you can make isk very easily and quickly (and as you gain more skills more easily and more quickly). How much money you have does have a big impact on what you can do in the game (moreso then WoW). So to compromise there are tons of ways to make money. You can trade on the market, you can produce goods (the industry of the game is incredibly deep and diverse, it's not just standing still for 30 seconds while you character makes an item), you can mine(again, just this small portion is very indepth/complex. There is alot to mining... strip mining, ninja 0.0 mining...), you can ransom people, you can try and be a mercenary, you can run a protection raquet (You might need a few other people for this though), you can kill other players, you can NPC hunt, you can mission, you can moon mine (again, corp might be needed), you could just join a rich corporation, etc etc.
So no, you don't farm isk for weeks on end unless you want to. Hell, you can "enjoy" the game just as much flying around in 8mil isk cruisers as you can in a 300million isk battleship or a 2billion isk carrier.
The odds to lose you ship are directly based on what you do. If you are stupid you will probably lose a lot of ships, that's just what happens. Loss is a big part of EvE and is one of the reasons PvP is so interesting/exciting. It's really a rush to attack and fight when you don't want to lose your ship.
This does not exist in EvE. When an item is added to the game it is intended to be used on other players. For example, the Interdictor is a class of ship thats sole purpose is to stop players from running away. It does not carry many weapons, all it has is a big deployable anti-warp bubble. This ship serves no purposes vs NPCs. Same with warp scramblers/most EW/Heavy 'dictor/titan/dreadnaught/POSes (and every POS fitting other then the few mining ones)/tons of other items.
They just added a huge change to the game (faction warfare) to allow players to more easily find people to kill. It's been a long time since they've added any "significant" to PvE bones of the game(not to say they don't, there are regularly added new missions, they did added exploration not that long ago, added salvaging...). I know you said you haven't played the game, but I assume you kind of understand what I'm saying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That actually is quite interesting. Maybe I should give this a whirl at some point so I can make some first-hand observations of the gameplay.
One question though, what is the purpose of the missions and the mining? Is it fun at all? Would the game be better if it reformed that sector of the gameplay?
Depends. Level 1, 2, and 3 missions are pretty easy with a decent sized ship. (Destroyers own Level 1s, cruisers own level 2s, BC/BS own level 3). Level 4 (and I guess 5, though I've never tried them) is where planning come into play. At this point you are fighting tons of NPC ships. Often times 15-20 ships (including 2-5 NPC BS) at once. In order to solo these missions takes a bit of strategy and trickery, namely outfitting your ship specifically for whatever it is you'll fight against. I'd go more into this but I would have to explain the whole damage/weapon type/range etc mechanics and I'm too lazy for that.
Mining is fun too, but in a "relaxing" kind of way. It isn't "fun" really, it's more just zen-like. You sit out there in the asteroid belt watching your pretty mining lasers blink on and off and listen to the soothing "bzzzzzzsheeeeeeewww" sound they make. Every-so-often you drag ore from your cargo hold and drop it in a free-floating cargo container. Repeat this for as long as you want. Mining is best done with the game in windowed mode and a movie playing or while you are chatting with your corp or possibly browsing the internet. It's a hands-off activity. Now, there are plenty of cases where you really can't just zone-out, and mining becomes just as dangerous (if not more dangerous) then outright pirating. Again, I'd go more into this but explaining mining lasers/security status/tech II ships/cargo hold/etc would require more typing then I feel like currently.
Eedot: Yeah I know what you mean. The corp you are in has pretty much everything to do with your enjoyment of a game. I kept getting netted into 0.0 corps and eventually alliances and had to deal with all that BS. It's not that I don't like being part of something bigger then myself, but when you are 1 among 500 you begin to feel a bit TOO insignificant and it takes some of the fun out of the game. Not to mention the inevitable 4 hour station camps. I love 0.0 (the money-making potential is just astronomical) but so much of the politics surrounding it bore me. I know people that LOVE this stuff, all the POS warfare and whatnot but it's really not for me. Ill take a 5 man gate-camp or a 4 person wolf-pack over a 200 person POS popping army any day.
Good choices all around, but The Escapist is raw living win as well. 10th Man Down is also excellent, as is Sahara and a host of others.
<!--quoteo(post=1687344:date=Sep 4 2008, 07:48 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 4 2008, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/" target="_blank">psst over here</a>, although it still isn't up for release for a long time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember stumbling across that a couple years ago, I don't expect it to be released anytime in the next five years though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Heres to hoping, though.