<!--quoteo(post=1695127:date=Dec 4 2008, 08:39 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 4 2008, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection was never a really popular game because of insufficient publicity. What makes you think that NS is unpopular for a mod? It's been alive for over 6 years dude. Name ALL of the games that have been alive for at least that long. The general consensus among people who have been here since the start is that NS failed because of website hacks/abandonment by Charlie for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When Steam tracked all servers and mods, NS was the 2nd most played mod just after Garry's Mod on a regular basis. This was about 6 months ago that they stopped giving those tracking values. Don't try to pull the it's not a popular mod thing. Sure it's getting overshadowed a bit by some new ones like Insurgency which are on Steamworks now, but it was, has been, and still imo a popular mod. It's more popular than Red Orchestra for crying out loud, and you have to pay to get that game.
<!--quoteo(post=1695189:date=Dec 5 2008, 06:41 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Dec 5 2008, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Steam tracked all servers and mods, NS was the 2nd most played mod just after Garry's Mod on a regular basis. This was about 6 months ago that they stopped giving those tracking values. Don't try to pull the it's not a popular mod thing. Sure it's getting overshadowed a bit by some new ones like Insurgency which are on Steamworks now, but it was, has been, and still imo a popular mod. It's more popular than Red Orchestra for crying out loud, and you have to pay to get that game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Notice how I said game instead of mod. Don't try to pull detective dip###### on me.
<!--quoteo(post=1695190:date=Dec 5 2008, 06:47 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 5 2008, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Notice how I said game instead of mod. Don't try to pull detective dip###### on me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Geez. Calm down.
It was also ranked as about the 7th to 10th most played game on Steam.
It was also ranked as about the 7th to 10th most played game on Steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That seems understandable considering how steam lacked any of the highly played games at the time except for HL, CS and TF2. If they included games such as BF2, Halo, Americas Army etc... and NS was still ranked #7. then you'd have a case.
<!--quoteo(post=1695292:date=Dec 6 2008, 04:25 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Dec 6 2008, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing more stupid than the title of this thread is saying "NS is not/was not popular."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was very popular for a mod.
<!--quoteo(post=1695292:date=Dec 6 2008, 05:25 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Dec 6 2008, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing more stupid than the title of this thread is saying "NS is not/was not popular."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, good to see your attitude hasn't changed since needlessly brutalising the Eternal Silence crew. The original poster was onto something, there are plenty of examples in games we can think of where the effort to balance the game made it extremely boring. We may not agree with his reasons or his solutions, but that doesn't change the fact that he is twigging onto something real, and so the title of this thread can not be considered stupid.
I would also like to point out that in CS the skill differences are more.... Intuitive. It's pretty obvious why you died when you miss, or failed to react to an ambush in time, or flash banged yourself in the face. In NS, it's extremely difficult to make the logical leap on your own that you died as a skulk or fade because you didn't jump half a dozen times in a millisecond, repeated every couple of seconds, while alternately strafing in opposite directions. There is no ingame training or tutorial mechanic that gives you any hint that this is the skill you should be working on in order to improve your alien game.
<!--quoteo(post=1695376:date=Dec 6 2008, 02:20 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 6 2008, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was very popular for a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, that's what I was implying. Saying otherwise is as stupid as the title of this thread. NS is really the only non-Valve supported mod that's withstood the test of time. Also, if AoC and INS were not on Steamworks, NS would have been more popular than any HL2 mod as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original poster was onto something, there are plenty of examples in games we can think of where the <b>effort to balance the game</b> made it extremely boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original poster was suggesting that the devs should intentionally unbalance certain things every week. If you think that's "being onto something" then you and I think very differently. Also, "attempts to achieve balance" isn't the same thing as "having a balanced game." When a game is balanced well, you have a masterpiece like Starcraft.
Attempting to achieve near perfect balance when the teams are asymmetrical is one of the most difficult, but most rewarding, things a video game developer can do. Random criticals or overpowering LMG's this week then bite the next week is a cheap and lazy out of of actually developing a game.
I'm going to go the extra step and say that if NS was really popular during 2.0 then there really is no problem with newbie frustration and hawkeye has no case.
<!--quoteo(post=1694663:date=Nov 29 2008, 10:54 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Nov 29 2008, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I worry about that word "segregate". Doing such creates the gap between high level and lower levels players, making the transition that much harder.
I would rather there be a magical way to have a perfectly smooth learning curve where the noobs don't get pwned and the pros don't get mad, and moving from noob to pro doesn't require taking a deep breath and disappearing into a secret training facility for a week. I would rather be able to improve myself against players of my own skill range, but still see the potential of higher level play, thus pushing me to get better, or be satisfied with my current level of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Segregating the player base does nothing to but promote the type of gameplay each particular player enjoys. If you seperate the competitive and casual players then those who require additional time to learn at a slower/calmer pace would be able to do so in a casual server.
The player ultimately makes a decision on when and if he or she decides to move towards competitive play. Labeling the servers appropriately creates an expectation for a player regarding the particular style of play he or she enjoys.
Keeping the competitive players away from the casual players and vice versa allows both sub-communities to thrive on their own. There has been much conflict between the two groups consistently when NS 1 came out.
Of course the developers would not hardcode a system which requires players to register as a competitive or casual player and allow them to only join those servers. But the server labeling gives players a general idea as to what type of player the server admins will cater to. So I guess that would be called a soft separation rather than pure segregation, thus allowing for dynamic movement between a players playstyle.
<!--quoteo(post=1695413:date=Dec 6 2008, 07:12 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 6 2008, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to go the extra step and say that if NS was really popular during 2.0 then there really is no problem with newbie frustration and hawkeye has no case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hawkeye's argument is baseless and false.
Not only did NS have a player base GREATER than that of TFC (second only to CS and DoD) in its hayday, it has had a MUCH HIGHER CONSISTENT PLAYER BASE AT ITS PEAK THAN ANY OF THE OTHER SOURCE MODS.
NS is the single most popular 3rd party mod EVER created.
Firewater, I think that all that should be done is that competitive players should be given icons. This way if a newbie is like "WHAT THE HOW DID HE JUST DO THAT!!??" He could then press tab and be instantly interested in the competitive world.
<!--quoteo(post=1695505:date=Dec 7 2008, 03:34 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 7 2008, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firewater, I think that all that should be done is that competitive players should be given icons. This way if a newbie is like "WHAT THE HOW DID HE JUST DO THAT!!??" He could then press tab and be instantly interested in the competitive world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Icons cause jealousy, which in turn causes more conflict. I've seen this become ever more prevalent with the PT icons as well as the old Veteran icons.
Its best to honestly just leave it to server labeling. Some would argue that some competitive players would go in and trounce the casual players for a power trip. Let the admins handle that.
<!--quoteo(post=1695507:date=Dec 7 2008, 03:39 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Dec 7 2008, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Icons cause jealousy, which in turn causes more conflict. I've seen this become ever more prevalent with the PT icons as well as the old Veteran icons.
Its best to honestly just leave it to server labeling. Some would argue that some competitive players would go in and trounce the casual players for a power trip. Let the admins handle that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Self-Labeling would really be ideal. Competitive, Casual, Beginner, Bots, Custom Maps, etc would be great options. I wonder how possible it would be to try to code some kind of "Would you like to self-label your server to attract your desired playerbase?" question during the server setup process then have the label hardcoded before the server name. This, hopefully, would also allow players to filter through the server list for the servers they want. I doubt self labeling would work unless it was included as some part of the server set up process.
<!--quoteo(post=1695102:date=Dec 4 2008, 11:57 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hawkeye @ Dec 4 2008, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I didn't think natural selection was that <i>hard</i> to learn. ... [Newbies] know perfectly that if they bite the marine, the marine dies. Problem is a matter of skill. If there was ever a problem with intuition on gameplay, it'd be knowing what to do at any given moment. Though newbies don't stop playing because they poorly choose to go to a rather uninteresting section of the map in terms of activity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skill gap isn't responsible for raging because there are still (ironically) more bad players in the community than good - especially in public play.
Newbies trying the game rage because they die to things they don't expect, which happens because they aren't properly educated on how the game is played.
That's great for people who like to think, but for counterstrike players it just causes frustration, and depletes the influx of new blood into the community.
If people have even little idea how this game works, they wouldnt do this crap threads. There is random spread in sg(and its very annoing) + random reg(even more annoing) + random players and even human aim/skill prediction is random.
This isnt CS, TF2 or even near DOD:source.. SO its useless even think about it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1695670:date=Dec 9 2008, 08:13 AM:name=Mige)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mige @ Dec 9 2008, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is so stypid thread!
If people have even little idea how this game works, they wouldnt do this crap threads. There is random spread in sg(and its very annoing) + random reg(even more annoing) + random players and even human aim/skill prediction is random.
This isnt CS, TF2 or even near DOD:source.. SO its useless even think about it.
Please Lock it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not random for the sake of random, it's so an lmg/shotgun can't snipe you at long distances(reliably). It's necessary in a FPS with melee vs ranged.
<!--quoteo(post=1695560:date=Dec 8 2008, 04:17 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Dec 8 2008, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skill gap isn't responsible for raging because there are still (ironically) more bad players in the community than good - especially in public play.
Newbies trying the game rage because they die to things they don't expect, which happens because they aren't properly educated on how the game is played.
That's great for people who like to think, but for counterstrike players it just causes frustration, and depletes the influx of new blood into the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People who rage will rage no matter what you do. I don't want them in my game. Let them buy it and then rage out permanently.
<!--quoteo(post=1695681:date=Dec 9 2008, 10:37 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 9 2008, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not random for the sake of random, it's so an lmg/shotgun can't snipe you at long distances(reliably). It's necessary in a FPS with melee vs ranged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YEP YEP I did say shotgun has random spread so shut up and go learn something new from ns1.
You should know that Shotgun spread was not random in early versions...
Comments
When Steam tracked all servers and mods, NS was the 2nd most played mod just after Garry's Mod on a regular basis. This was about 6 months ago that they stopped giving those tracking values. Don't try to pull the it's not a popular mod thing. Sure it's getting overshadowed a bit by some new ones like Insurgency which are on Steamworks now, but it was, has been, and still imo a popular mod. It's more popular than Red Orchestra for crying out loud, and you have to pay to get that game.
Notice how I said game instead of mod. Don't try to pull detective dip###### on me.
Geez. Calm down.
It was also ranked as about the 7th to 10th most played game on Steam.
It was also ranked as about the 7th to 10th most played game on Steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems understandable considering how steam lacked any of the highly played games at the time except for HL, CS and TF2. If they included games such as BF2, Halo, Americas Army etc... and NS was still ranked #7. then you'd have a case.
It was very popular for a mod.
I would also like to point out that in CS the skill differences are more.... Intuitive. It's pretty obvious why you died when you miss, or failed to react to an ambush in time, or flash banged yourself in the face. In NS, it's extremely difficult to make the logical leap on your own that you died as a skulk or fade because you didn't jump half a dozen times in a millisecond, repeated every couple of seconds, while alternately strafing in opposite directions. There is no ingame training or tutorial mechanic that gives you any hint that this is the skill you should be working on in order to improve your alien game.
I agree, that's what I was implying. Saying otherwise is as stupid as the title of this thread. NS is really the only non-Valve supported mod that's withstood the test of time. Also, if AoC and INS were not on Steamworks, NS would have been more popular than any HL2 mod as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original poster was onto something, there are plenty of examples in games we can think of where the <b>effort to balance the game</b> made it extremely boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original poster was suggesting that the devs should intentionally unbalance certain things every week. If you think that's "being onto something" then you and I think very differently. Also, "attempts to achieve balance" isn't the same thing as "having a balanced game." When a game is balanced well, you have a masterpiece like Starcraft.
Attempting to achieve near perfect balance when the teams are asymmetrical is one of the most difficult, but most rewarding, things a video game developer can do. Random criticals or overpowering LMG's this week then bite the next week is a cheap and lazy out of of actually developing a game.
I would rather there be a magical way to have a perfectly smooth learning curve where the noobs don't get pwned and the pros don't get mad, and moving from noob to pro doesn't require taking a deep breath and disappearing into a secret training facility for a week. I would rather be able to improve myself against players of my own skill range, but still see the potential of higher level play, thus pushing me to get better, or be satisfied with my current level of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Segregating the player base does nothing to but promote the type of gameplay each particular player enjoys. If you seperate the competitive and casual players then those who require additional time to learn at a slower/calmer pace would be able to do so in a casual server.
The player ultimately makes a decision on when and if he or she decides to move towards competitive play. Labeling the servers appropriately creates an expectation for a player regarding the particular style of play he or she enjoys.
Keeping the competitive players away from the casual players and vice versa allows both sub-communities to thrive on their own. There has been much conflict between the two groups consistently when NS 1 came out.
Of course the developers would not hardcode a system which requires players to register as a competitive or casual player and allow them to only join those servers. But the server labeling gives players a general idea as to what type of player the server admins will cater to. So I guess that would be called a soft separation rather than pure segregation, thus allowing for dynamic movement between a players playstyle.
Hawkeye's argument is baseless and false.
Not only did NS have a player base GREATER than that of TFC (second only to CS and DoD) in its hayday, it has had a MUCH HIGHER CONSISTENT PLAYER BASE AT ITS PEAK THAN ANY OF THE OTHER SOURCE MODS.
NS is the single most popular 3rd party mod EVER created.
It also had over 1 million downloads.
Icons cause jealousy, which in turn causes more conflict. I've seen this become ever more prevalent with the PT icons as well as the old Veteran icons.
Its best to honestly just leave it to server labeling. Some would argue that some competitive players would go in and trounce the casual players for a power trip. Let the admins handle that.
Its best to honestly just leave it to server labeling. Some would argue that some competitive players would go in and trounce the casual players for a power trip. Let the admins handle that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Self-Labeling would really be ideal. Competitive, Casual, Beginner, Bots, Custom Maps, etc would be great options. I wonder how possible it would be to try to code some kind of "Would you like to self-label your server to attract your desired playerbase?" question during the server setup process then have the label hardcoded before the server name. This, hopefully, would also allow players to filter through the server list for the servers they want. I doubt self labeling would work unless it was included as some part of the server set up process.
The skill gap isn't responsible for raging because there are still (ironically) more bad players in the community than good - especially in public play.
Newbies trying the game rage because they die to things they don't expect, which happens because they aren't properly educated on how the game is played.
That's great for people who like to think, but for counterstrike players it just causes frustration, and depletes the influx of new blood into the community.
If people have even little idea how this game works, they wouldnt do this crap threads. There is random spread in sg(and its very annoing) + random reg(even more annoing) + random players and even human aim/skill prediction is random.
This isnt CS, TF2 or even near DOD:source.. SO its useless even think about it.
Please Lock it
If people have even little idea how this game works, they wouldnt do this crap threads. There is random spread in sg(and its very annoing) + random reg(even more annoing) + random players and even human aim/skill prediction is random.
This isnt CS, TF2 or even near DOD:source.. SO its useless even think about it.
Please Lock it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not random for the sake of random, it's so an lmg/shotgun can't snipe you at long distances(reliably). It's necessary in a FPS with melee vs ranged.
Newbies trying the game rage because they die to things they don't expect, which happens because they aren't properly educated on how the game is played.
That's great for people who like to think, but for counterstrike players it just causes frustration, and depletes the influx of new blood into the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who rage will rage no matter what you do. I don't want them in my game. Let them buy it and then rage out permanently.
YEP YEP I did say shotgun has random spread so shut up and go learn something new from ns1.
You should know that Shotgun spread was not random in early versions...