Medkits / Ammo / Catalyst
La Chupacabra
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
<div class="IPBDescription">random notes</div>To keep it nice and simple:
medpacks given out by comm = good
med-spam = bad and overpowering (i.e. irritating on the alien side)
so:
keep the comm in charge of medpacks, but make them usable items under the 4 weapon slot, like a welder. So, rather than instantly healing when falling on someones head, it would need to be selected by the marine and used (with a short animation, syringe or sth?). It would be cool if the health could be also regained over time, like with the regeneration upgrade. Catalyst could work on a similar basis.
It would allow marines to refresh health/ammo etc. between fights - as it is NS1 - but med-spams would not be overpowering anymore.
Also, ammo:
it would be cool, as a marine, to be able to drop some ammo (for the weapon you currently have in your hands) to your teammates
medpacks given out by comm = good
med-spam = bad and overpowering (i.e. irritating on the alien side)
so:
keep the comm in charge of medpacks, but make them usable items under the 4 weapon slot, like a welder. So, rather than instantly healing when falling on someones head, it would need to be selected by the marine and used (with a short animation, syringe or sth?). It would be cool if the health could be also regained over time, like with the regeneration upgrade. Catalyst could work on a similar basis.
It would allow marines to refresh health/ammo etc. between fights - as it is NS1 - but med-spams would not be overpowering anymore.
Also, ammo:
it would be cool, as a marine, to be able to drop some ammo (for the weapon you currently have in your hands) to your teammates
Comments
If you remove medspam, you will remove the only ceilingless aspect from the commander game. I can count the commanders who can consistently aim medpacks on the fingers of one hand. Don't want the commander to spam medpacks? Kill nodes. 2 res/medpack guarantees that this is a huge investment of resources.
look outside the box mate, resources are one thing and being killed by a vanilla marine who you have bitten 7 times is a another one, people are simply annoyed and irritated by this. Unfortunately, annoyance and irritation are not considered to be the building blocks of any successful game.
I'm happy to know I wasted the enemy commander roughly 2*2*7 = 28 res. That's 3 less shotguns, Adv armory or weapon 2 later on. Meanwhile he assumably kept one lone marine alive for a little longer.
but a new player who gave NS a first try a minute ago doesn't give a damn and switches to L4D
7 medpacks is 14, not 28
anyway, what's the point? it adds-up to a huge list of things for which new comms are being flamed for by "pr0" players and because of which playing as an alien is just an irritating experience, no wonder this game is loosing on popularity and half of discussions in ready room is just flames
7 medpacks is 14, not 28
anyway, what's the point? it adds-up to a huge list of things for which new comms are being flamed for by "pr0" players and because of which playing as an alien is just an irritating experience, no wonder this game is loosing on popularity and half of discussions in ready room is just flames<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One bite does 75, one medpack heals 50, so you'll need 2 meds to keep the marine above the critical 75 hp.
Actually people are unhappy because the comms aren't medding. I don't think anyone can blame the comm for the lack of spam. Your suggestion leaves us with just the most flammable part of the medpack routine.
As for the spam, it at least needs to be replaced with something equally challenging. I kinda agree that the medspam is a little flawed for the instant fun factor of the aliens, but I guess we'll have to see how the devs have got this planned.
What is probably more challenging for a commander is deciding when dropping a couple of med packs earlier in the res flow is worth it when they are trying to advance the tech, weapons, resources, and structures at a pace that is viciously demanding, where one slip up in deciphering the movements of the Kharaa spells even more vitriol spewed over text and voice at the Commander, even if it may not be his fault for being a part of a team that dies way too much to be effective in securing res and keeping weapons active in the field.
I am in full agreement with the OP by La Chupacabra in that med spam needs to change. With the hint of Flayra and Max looking into "spells" for the Commander and Hive Mind, it is my hope that this will be addressed by that and we will support each other as field medics (like how we support each other as field engineers with welders), something that definitely has a limit: "Kill the medic/gorge!"
What is probably more challenging for a commander is deciding when dropping a couple of med packs earlier in the res flow is worth it when they are trying to advance the tech, weapons, resources, and structures at a pace that is viciously demanding, where one slip up in deciphering the movements of the Kharaa spells even more vitriol spewed over text and voice at the Commander, even if it may not be his fault for being a part of a team that dies way too much to be effective in securing res and keeping weapons active in the field.
I am in full agreement with the OP by La Chupacabra in that med spam needs to change. With the hint of Flayra and Max looking into "spells" for the Commander and Hive Mind, it is my hope that this will be addressed by that and we will support each other as field medics (like how we support each other as field engineers with welders), something that definitely has a limit: "Kill the medic/gorge!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take one demo with Peach in the chair. See the way he meds and controls the res game. Go do that yourself. Then get over here and say the med game isn't challenging.
Oh yes, I can spam with 6 nodes income. Peach keeps a team in the game vs very top aliens with 2 + base node. I'm still in total awe of his res control, no matter if I've spent hundreds of competetive marine rounds trying to learn the aspects. He simply meds whenever it's useful and adapts to the situations flawlessly.
Oh yes, I can spam with 6 nodes income. Peach keeps a team in the game vs very top aliens with 2 + base node. I'm still in total awe of his res control, no matter if I've spent hundreds of competetive marine rounds trying to learn the aspects. He simply meds whenever it's useful and adapts to the situations flawlessly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I was going based off of what I had seen and watched be accomplished from the chair, so I hope you don't mind if I speak from that - and my experiences have indicated med spam is not challenging once it is committed to. Look, are we talking about the same thing? Med spam to me is when the sky rains med packs, making nearly all hits from incoming Kharaa null, I am not referring to when the Commander drops a few med packs after a marine has been hit, has already defeated his Kharaa opponent, and needs to get back to full strength for the next encounter. There is a difference between meds raining from the sky and 2-4 res to get a marine back up to working order, right? Personally, as both a marine and Commander I like armories set up in strategic points for healing, doesn't require a uber Commander to work his ass off jumping all over the place dropping bulls eye meds directly along a correctly predicted path.
So, this Peach you mention has no meaning to me. Who is Peach? Do you have a link to a video? Any chance you can enlighten me as to how med drops are challenging beyond resource management when you have a small pool of res to work with? I am really not following how you can approach this like I have a unqualified view on the subject if I am not the best Commander in the game.
As for ammo, no point in putting that in your inventory. I would like to see the marines have to +use to pick up the ammo, so you can't accidentally hog it when you don't need it. Catpacks should be manual though since they're so expensive.
So, this Peach you mention has no meaning to me. Who is Peach? Do you have a link to a video? Any chance you can enlighten me as to how med drops are challenging beyond resource management when you have a small pool of res to work with? I am really not following how you can approach this like I have a unqualified view on the subject if I am not the best Commander in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the topic starter seems to call pracitcally the whole fight medding spam. I guess I wrote my post a little hastily, but the point was that the commander has the decisive power and I can't see any reason to limit the ability. Very few people are able to adapt their medding all the way to the situation, but that's something at least I'm trying to improve in my comming.
The massive 10+ med spams are more of a game finishers than smart moves, so I wouldn't call them that big problem. It's a little similar move as charging onoses at 7+ marines; It can be done, but I wouldn't do it unless you've got a plenty of economical advantage. The rest of the medding is already quite skill intense when it comes to quickly judging the meds use and landing them on a dodging marine.
I think everyone can see how the pick-up-and-use-later meds would remove a lot of elements from the commanding, but I guess it's possible to limit the maximium meds. I just can't see much a point for it, since it's 75% of the time just bad commanding to overcommit to a rine.
For Peach, see something like <a href="http://ensl.zanith.nl/upload/demos/s11/ENSL11_fl-timmer.zip" target="_blank">this.</a> Check his commanding on lost. He loses that round, but it's still nice how long he struggles with very little map control. Those demos are also nice to watch when broadening your knowledge about the whole game.
Welcome to post-ansl NS 3.2 commanding.
what I'm proposing about medpacks has nothing to do with the commanding aspect of giving out medpacks, I have no interest in costs and it's economical impact on the round, since the whole thing <b>(i.e. resource economy) is very likely to change with addition of the Alien commander and buy menu for rines</b> (and thus seperate resource pools for commanders and fighters), what I'm saying is:
Spamming meds can make marines invincible, especially when fighting with lower alien life-forms and when marines are having good map control. I find it overpowering in a 1 on 1 fight situation. It doesn't matter how good and fast you are or how well have you trained your moves as an alien, since a n00bster can still win with a help of couple medpacks from the sky. That's what you call competitive gaming?
If I'm following the logic of the med-spam defenders correctly, than you're just modifying my previous statement a bit:
Spamming meds can make marines invincible (but only when mastered by comm and has a negative impact on resources, so it's challenging for the comm to decide what is better - med-spam or saving resources).
Still, I find being able to instantly heal-up a marine overpowering, especially that the only thing we know about resource management in NS2 is that it will need to be significantly different to accomodate the announced changes.
I personally think medspam is silly in how its represented currently.
Potentially make a marine invincible*. It doesn't work this way in actuality.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it overpowering in a 1 on 1 fight situation. It doesn't matter how good and fast you are or how well have you trained your moves as an alien, since a n00bster can still win with a help of couple medpacks from the sky. That's what you call competitive gaming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One on one is the only scenario this is applicable in. If your skulking is good enough, you can drain vast amounts of resources from the marine pool and kill the player anyway when you throw him up in the air and prevent him from reaching the packs. I've found that medspamming people with bad aim is a terrible waste of res since in a close combat scenario of skulk bite range, marines are at a horrid damage disadvantage and chances are, the next skulk/lerk to come around will kill them anyway. You're also failing to take the skill of the commander into the equation, as only the elite have the skill necessary to do this sort of thing. So a newbie with a godlike commander averages out to a slightly less than weak ground presence.
Spamming meds can make marines invincible, especially when fighting with lower alien life-forms and when marines are having good map control. I find it overpowering in a 1 on 1 fight situation. It doesn't matter how good and fast you are or how well have you trained your moves as an alien, since a n00bster can still win with a help of couple medpacks from the sky. That's what you call competitive gaming?
If I'm following the logic of the med-spam defenders correctly, than you're just modifying my previous statement a bit:
Spamming meds can make marines invincible (but only when mastered by comm and has a negative impact on resources, so it's challenging for the comm to decide what is better - med-spam or saving resources).
Still, I find being able to instantly heal-up a marine overpowering, especially that the only thing we know about resource management in NS2 is that it will need to be significantly different to accomodate the announced changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The complaint was that your solution doesn't just prevent medspam, it totally removes the skill required to watch marines and med them during combat. Instead comms would just drop a med for each marine while they're on the move and then not even have to pay attention to them while they fight. The extent to which comms should require twitch skill is debatable, but your solution leans pretty heavily towards removing it completely.
As long as NS doesn't have chesslike depth in the strategy section I prefer to have some twich skill to add the challenge. The strategical calls themselves aren't the most complex in the gaming history, but add up the hurry and you'll have to learn to adapt quickly, prioritize your doings and multitask. For example right now you'll have to reach a balance between the sound scouting and hovering above your groups. With practise you'll learn to be medding when necessary and still scouting as much as you can.
You have a hard time with med pack rain? I've never really had much problem with the aim of drawing circles figure eights and variations of that with the hot keys for differing numbers of moving marines, I would be very surprised it would be hard.
Unless of course we are just talking about a couple med packs dropped precisely where they are needed at just the right moment, that is very tough and I have never though of that as med spam, just a really good Commander.
See, when I read "med spam" I think of the first, an excess of resources being used to surround the marines so that the only place in 3D space a marine could turn without hitting one would be jumping - unless of course we are talking about a Commander who only med spams on a single point making a pile of many packs that don't do much when the marines dodge and/or are knocked away from it.
I'm glad you find it humourous, the signature helps spread the message of how easy med "rain" spam is really not that hard and almost certainly guarantees a marine will come out of a encounter alive.
Spamming meds can make marines invincible, especially when fighting with lower alien life-forms and when marines are having good map control. I find it overpowering in a 1 on 1 fight situation. It doesn't matter how good and fast you are or how well have you trained your moves as an alien, since a n00bster can still win with a help of couple medpacks from the sky. That's what you call competitive gaming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you find it overpowering in a 1 on 1 situation doesn't mean those results apply to others. If the commander is willing to spend 10-16 res on a single marine during a 1 on 1 battle, I'd say that the aliens made out pretty good even if the skulk loses. There are also other dynamics that can minimize the effects of medspam. Such factors include taking down resource nodes, minimizing marine kills by playing more intelligently. If you feel the commander is going to medspam, DISENGAGE and re-engage when the marine moves away from the med packs/after you've healed up. Also teaming up with lerks can force marines into locations where they are at a disadvantage. Not to mention FOCUS completely negates medspam.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I find being able to instantly heal-up a marine overpowering, especially that the only thing we know about resource management in NS2 is that it will need to be significantly different to accomodate the announced changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree completely. I've seen players die even as they get medspammed, medspam does not guarentee survival, it just simply minimizes death. There are a number of viable tactics out there to counter med spam.
QFT
Medpacks are expensive!! A commander that uses medspam excessively will LOSE.
Oh yes, I can spam with 6 nodes income. Peach keeps a team in the game vs very top aliens with 2 + base node. I'm still in total awe of his res control, no matter if I've spent hundreds of competetive marine rounds trying to learn the aspects. He simply meds whenever it's useful and adapts to the situations flawlessly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anybody ever rated peach because of his meds, it was his tactics, understanding of the game and his decision-making skills which made him a good comm. If you want to see good medspam go watch some of bens or even my com demos if you can find them. Anybody who actually spams like 8-10 medpacks on a single marine is just stupid, end of story. Good coms who medspam, will use like 2 or 3 medpacks at most, but <b>EVERY SINGLE MED</b> will land on that marines feet after they get bitten. Predicting player movement and dropping the meds in the right place is much harder than you think, and if you instead spammed like 10 meds as close to that marine as you could - they would probably die.
There are always exceptions to the rule though, and you will see good coms spamming 10-20 meds on a single marine whos fighting 3-4 skulks. This is however, extremely rare and the only reason a com would decide to do that, is if he thought that the map control he gains from keeping that marine alive at that location, is more important than the res he spends on medpacks (which could probably buy like 2 shotguns). Early-game this is a lot more common as map control is very much more important and dependent on solo marines, lategame it basically never happens.
There are always exceptions to the rule though, and you will see good coms spamming 10-20 meds on a single marine whos fighting 3-4 skulks. This is however, extremely rare and the only reason a com would decide to do that, is if he thought that the map control he gains from keeping that marine alive at that location, is more important than the res he spends on medpacks (which could probably buy like 2 shotguns). Early-game this is a lot more common as map control is very much more important and dependent on solo marines, lategame it basically never happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically what I've seen Peach does those little magical tricks with his res pool. You will see meds just like any other comm, but still he ends up having the extra shotguns, early proto or just everything necessary squuesed into the play right in time, even without the nodes any other comm would need. His strategies and decisions are great too, but I think he also adapts his meds and res use way better to the situation than the others comm left in the game.
The commander either gets flamed for not medding enough, or too much...
Also, lerk gas + med spam creates the most annoying situation EVER IMO... not just because of the inconvenience of the constant medding, the real problem is the morale drop and even arguments on the rine team.
And by morale drop I mean the suckyness of the comm being able to save his rines, but not really being supposed to (cause they're just not worth the res)...
Out with the silly god-powers I say... either put a cooldown on medpacks or something, or replace the system entirely.
And out with lerk-gas too, especially if the medding gets nerfed (duh) ... I truly hate lerk gas... so cheap, just staying out of reach and kiting the rines constantly with perma-gas them... urgh
The commander either gets flamed for not medding enough, or too much...
Also, lerk gas + med spam creates the most annoying situation EVER IMO... not just because of the inconvenience of the constant medding, the real problem is the morale drop and even arguments on the rine team.
And by morale drop I mean the suckyness of the comm being able to save his rines, but not really being supposed to (cause they're just not worth the res)...
Out with the silly god-powers I say... either put a cooldown on medpacks or something, or replace the system entirely.
And out with lerk-gas too, especially if the medding gets nerfed (duh) ... I truly hate lerk gas... so cheap, just staying out of reach and kiting the rines constantly with perma-gas them... urgh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you serious? Is this a joke?
The whole point of lerk gas (apart from reducing marine's armor) is to waste the commander's res.
Besides, the lerk can only gas a marine constantly if the marine isn't on the move. Essentially, it's a great way to stop the marines camping a location. It's also one of the only ways aliens can break a siege.
As with most of the people in the topic, you have forgotten about the res cost of medpacks. They are not free! They are very expensive. A good commander will not medspam exessively. 2-3 meds on a marine, accurately, tends to be best.
QFT.
Medding too much? I'd rather be in a slightly disadvantaged economic position, but with dead skulks and actual map control rather than having to fight against an extra node alien team.