Rather than fight about bhopping, I have some ideas (as you asked for originally).
1. Togglable Sticky Mode' Users could bind a togglable 'alternative/sticky' key for skulks. This could make how the skulk attaches to the environement more controllable. Also this 'aternative/sticky' key could be used to do different 'modes' of movement (if you're up for the task). This could incorporate binding to walls, objects, opponents, directional changes, air control differences, what have you.
The 'stickyness' alone would enable you to 'fake out' a marine if you are going to attach to a wall.. or not. I also think that being able to 'ride a marine's backside' (but perhaps not be able to bite them) would be extremely entertaining and potentially strategically and tactically usefull. This could be accomplished with the toggled: 'Im sticky or I'm not'. Stickyness togglability or not, riding marines is something that really should be present if possible. I think the HL engine limited this type of thing in NS1. We would all LOL when seeing our teamates riding an unsuspecting marine around the base. Especially if cloaked and on a 'heavy'.
Think of all the extra control the togglability could give a skulk.
Toggling a 'movement/stickyness' mode could potentially more than double the types of movements you could perform. This would have more than double the effect on gameplay.
Here's another example of how it could be fun: Each mode has it's own jump (within certain limits). This would enable a player to 'double jump' as a skulk, but the price (or advantage if put to good use) would be that it would effect their 'stickyness'. Think 'jump - sticky(mode) button - jump' to perform the action 'double jump'... right into a marines face or even over the top of him to the guy behind him! Nothing says '**** YOU! Get out of here!' like a skulk bite to the face!
What about how you leave the walls? Perhaps in 'sticky mode' the skulk is 'traditional', say you're attached the wall, and when you jump, you jump away the same way it used to be in NS1. But with 'sticky togglability' you might be able to 'unstick yourself' and jump, getting an entirely new way to jump off the wall. Perhaps this would provide far more air control and be able to ambush/rush marines with more precision, uniqueness. It would have the added benefit of removing some of the old frustration in NS1 when you got into a ferocious fight in a tight space, and stuck to an object when you didn't want to, and didn't stick to an object when you did want to. This takes out the 'playing within the games limitations' paradigm and puts the player more in control... this is always a good thing, albeit a little daunting at first for newcomers.
I would like to see skulks be able to drop off a high structure and be able to 'glide' a decent distance before landing. Lots and lots of air control. This will effect map designers immensely. All the high, secret little channels that only skulks, JP marines, and lurkers could get to... those are awesome when you can jump out of them and land a devistating attack on a marine base or expansion.
In either case, my vote (not that I get one) is that the skulk should have some extremely advanced movement options available. This will make some aspects of the game harder for newcomers, but I think we sometimes forget that while they are learning, they can always perform ambushes and other less 'learned skill' tactics to keep them part of the game and keep them having fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1700926:date=Feb 20 2009, 03:05 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Katana- @ Feb 20 2009, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did not mean charge to jump, you press jump, and you jump instantly, but if you hold down the button for longer you jump higher. its like holding down jump makes gravity act less strongly on you for a moment( and only while your moving upward after jumping)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh....
So, while in the air and holding jump, you go higher up but slow down in the forward direction? Or is this just a way to have analog jumps (short hopping) instead of a set jump height?
I'm just confused on how this works. Is there an example implementation I could try out?
Yeah, the idea is to let the player vary their jump height, and lunch speed, but you can't have both a high jump and a fast jump, it can either be really fast and low, or high and slow, or some gradation in between. To my knowledge it hasn't been implemented in the way I describe in any product out there. A while back I implemented it in source just to play around with, it was pretty cool, especially when coupled with quake style jumping. Basically to get max speed you had to learn to time when you pressed and released the space bar, once you released it you could start holding it down again (the analog part only counted for one stroke) immediately with out changing your speed, and so you were ready for the next jump. So to go fast you had to time releasing the space bar as close to the moment you left the ground as possible. And once you got in a fire fight you could hold the down the space bar, and drop about half your speed, or use the high jump to go over your opponents head etc. It was a pretty neat system
<!--quoteo(post=1701619:date=Feb 28 2009, 04:31 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Katana- @ Feb 28 2009, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the idea is to let the player vary their jump height, and lunch speed, but you can't have both a high jump and a fast jump, it can either be really fast and low, or high and slow, or some gradation in between. To my knowledge it hasn't been implemented in the way I describe in any product out there. A while back I implemented it in source just to play around with, it was pretty cool, especially when coupled with quake style jumping. Basically to get max speed you had to learn to time when you pressed and released the space bar, once you released it you could start holding it down again (the analog part only counted for one stroke) immediately with out changing your speed, and so you were ready for the next jump. So to go fast you had to time releasing the space bar as close to the moment you left the ground as possible. And once you got in a fire fight you could hold the down the space bar, and drop about half your speed, or use the high jump to go over your opponents head etc. It was a pretty neat system<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That sounds good, now break it down into readable paragraphs so the devs notice it when/if they scan the thread.
Radix, have you played Ballmen? It's a Source multiplayer mod; primarily a deathmatch type shooter. Quite fun actually. Check it out on moddb. Anyway: It has wall-walking, albeit with true gravity switching and of course the screen does shift as well. In Ballmen, there are two ways to 'stick to walls': there's a key that you can press to toggle auto-stick on, so you will always stick to walls (ie. switch the 'ground') once you are facing a wall, moving towards it, and close enough to it. Of course, you can always toggle it off, in which case there's another key (I think the default was CTRL) in which, if you're close enough, and facing a wall, you'd press the CTRL key, and you'd switch 'your ground' to that wall. The first gives you less control but it's quicker and very easy to make fatal mistakes (eg. falling 'out' of the arena is death), but the second gives you more control because every 'switch' is manual, and is basically as fast as you can switch it yourself. You have more options to cater to different playstyles/skill levels, essentially.
<!--quoteo(post=1701650:date=Feb 28 2009, 12:08 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 28 2009, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure I follow how this would be better than the stickiness we have now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm out of the loop as to what's implemented and what's planned to be implemented. I'll have to do my catchup reading.
Are you saying that currently the plan is to have to press a key to stick to a wall as a skulk? Does pressing this key also affect air movement and jumping? Does pressing this key 'reset' certain movement verbs, such as jumping, to allow a double jump or to change the current direction of a jump or fall?
If so, then I apologize for cluttering the thread.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701896:date=Mar 4 2009, 06:24 AM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 4 2009, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure glad people who don't know how to NS are chiming in on how it should be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be fair, he's chiming in on a feature he didn't like, not balance. Also, the newbie perspective is important; dismissing it outright invites failure. However, that perspective has all ready been thoroughly expressed in this thread. Still flaming what you suppose is a troll like that is less helpful.
<!--quoteo(post=1701819:date=Mar 2 2009, 11:57 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Katana- @ Mar 2 2009, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->holding crouch as a skulk, disables wall walk. if you are stuck to a wall you can jump off the wall (in the direction you are looking)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Katana, It's all coming back to me now again for the first time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> It has been some time since I played NS, over a year. I played the earliest versions and played NS for years. It still holds it's place as the best game ever in my mind.
I think I'm failing at communiation. Let me distill it for everyone:
Movement mode 1. == Traditional NS movement that we all expect from NS1. Movement mode 2. == Movement incorporates all the new movement ideas (of which I have none besides this). You press a key to toggle between them. The movement toggle when used in a 'combination' gives cool and possibly suprising results.
^ That is my idea. It's not specifically the type of content being asked for here, but certainly would be cool and enhance the long-term playability of the game by adding to the 'minigames'.
<!--quoteo(post=1701896:date=Mar 4 2009, 06:24 AM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 4 2009, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure glad people who don't know how to NS are chiming in on how it should be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not. I hope not because that would be silly...
If you look at my 'signed up' date and member number, you will see it was a long time ago. You might also want to make some comparisons.
If I remember correctly, I made the account at that time to try to get my Vet icon back... But this is way off topic and I apologize for biting on this one.
If you played NS during it's peak on any West coast servers, their's a good chance that I have killed you... countless times. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I look forward to doing it all again soon.
<!--quoteo(post=1701795:date=Mar 3 2009, 06:29 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 3 2009, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that relevant to this discussion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can only imply. You need to use that thing inside your head to infer.
Comments
Well you are a part of the reason why I made that statement.
1. Togglable Sticky Mode'
Users could bind a togglable 'alternative/sticky' key for skulks. This could make how the skulk attaches to the environement more controllable. Also this 'aternative/sticky' key could be used to do different 'modes' of movement (if you're up for the task). This could incorporate binding to walls, objects, opponents, directional changes, air control differences, what have you.
The 'stickyness' alone would enable you to 'fake out' a marine if you are going to attach to a wall.. or not. I also think that being able to 'ride a marine's backside' (but perhaps not be able to bite them) would be extremely entertaining and potentially strategically and tactically usefull. This could be accomplished with the toggled: 'Im sticky or I'm not'. Stickyness togglability or not, riding marines is something that really should be present if possible. I think the HL engine limited this type of thing in NS1. We would all LOL when seeing our teamates riding an unsuspecting marine around the base. Especially if cloaked and on a 'heavy'.
Think of all the extra control the togglability could give a skulk.
Toggling a 'movement/stickyness' mode could potentially more than double the types of movements you could perform. This would have more than double the effect on gameplay.
Here's another example of how it could be fun: Each mode has it's own jump (within certain limits). This would enable a player to 'double jump' as a skulk, but the price (or advantage if put to good use) would be that it would effect their 'stickyness'. Think 'jump - sticky(mode) button - jump' to perform the action 'double jump'... right into a marines face or even over the top of him to the guy behind him!
Nothing says '**** YOU! Get out of here!' like a skulk bite to the face!
What about how you leave the walls? Perhaps in 'sticky mode' the skulk is 'traditional', say you're attached the wall, and when you jump, you jump away the same way it used to be in NS1.
But with 'sticky togglability' you might be able to 'unstick yourself' and jump, getting an entirely new way to jump off the wall. Perhaps this would provide far more air control and be able to ambush/rush marines with more precision, uniqueness. It would have the added benefit of removing some of the old frustration in NS1 when you got into a ferocious fight in a tight space, and stuck to an object when you didn't want to, and didn't stick to an object when you did want to. This takes out the 'playing within the games limitations' paradigm and puts the player more in control... this is always a good thing, albeit a little daunting at first for newcomers.
I would like to see skulks be able to drop off a high structure and be able to 'glide' a decent distance before landing. Lots and lots of air control. This will effect map designers immensely. All the high, secret little channels that only skulks, JP marines, and lurkers could get to... those are awesome when you can jump out of them and land a devistating attack on a marine base or expansion.
In either case, my vote (not that I get one) is that the skulk should have some extremely advanced movement options available. This will make some aspects of the game harder for newcomers, but I think we sometimes forget that while they are learning, they can always perform ambushes and other less 'learned skill' tactics to keep them part of the game and keep them having fun.
~Cap.
huh....
So, while in the air and holding jump, you go higher up but slow down in the forward direction? Or is this just a way to have analog jumps (short hopping) instead of a set jump height?
I'm just confused on how this works. Is there an example implementation I could try out?
I'm not sure I follow how this would be better than the stickiness we have now?
Anyway: It has wall-walking, albeit with true gravity switching and of course the screen does shift as well. In Ballmen, there are two ways to 'stick to walls': there's a key that you can press to toggle auto-stick on, so you will always stick to walls (ie. switch the 'ground') once you are facing a wall, moving towards it, and close enough to it. Of course, you can always toggle it off, in which case there's another key (I think the default was CTRL) in which, if you're close enough, and facing a wall, you'd press the CTRL key, and you'd switch 'your ground' to that wall. The first gives you less control but it's quicker and very easy to make fatal mistakes (eg. falling 'out' of the arena is death), but the second gives you more control because every 'switch' is manual, and is basically as fast as you can switch it yourself. You have more options to cater to different playstyles/skill levels, essentially.
just wanted to chime in
I'm out of the loop as to what's implemented and what's planned to be implemented. I'll have to do my catchup reading.
Are you saying that currently the plan is to have to press a key to stick to a wall as a skulk?
Does pressing this key also affect air movement and jumping?
Does pressing this key 'reset' certain movement verbs, such as jumping, to allow a double jump or to change the current direction of a jump or fall?
If so, then I apologize for cluttering the thread.
To be fair, he's chiming in on a feature he didn't like, not balance. Also, the newbie perspective is important; dismissing it outright invites failure. However, that perspective has all ready been thoroughly expressed in this thread. Still flaming what you suppose is a troll like that is less helpful.
Thank you Katana, It's all coming back to me now again for the first time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> It has been some time since I played NS, over a year. I played the earliest versions and played NS for years. It still holds it's place as the best game ever in my mind.
I think I'm failing at communiation. Let me distill it for everyone:
Movement mode 1. == Traditional NS movement that we all expect from NS1.
Movement mode 2. == Movement incorporates all the new movement ideas (of which I have none besides this).
You press a key to toggle between them.
The movement toggle when used in a 'combination' gives cool and possibly suprising results.
^ That is my idea.
It's not specifically the type of content being asked for here, but certainly would be cool and enhance the long-term playability of the game by adding to the 'minigames'.
Thanks for listening!
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not. I hope not because that would be silly...
If you look at my 'signed up' date and member number, you will see it was a long time ago. You might also want to make some comparisons.
If I remember correctly, I made the account at that time to try to get my Vet icon back...
But this is way off topic and I apologize for biting on this one.
If you played NS during it's peak on any West coast servers, their's a good chance that I have killed you... countless times. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I look forward to doing it all again soon.
I can only imply. You need to use that thing inside your head to infer.