LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1711006:date=Jun 7 2009, 06:48 PM:name=BlackHawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlackHawk @ Jun 7 2009, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All you can really do is join a petition (why?) or just wait and see what happens..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm having some trouble understanding the outrage thing here, especially with the whole "It should have been free LOOK AT TF2!!!" For TF2 Valve has made 3 new payload maps, 4 new arena maps, which are smaller and less complex than other maps and 18 weapons, over half of which are small modifications of other weapons. Oh, and most of the maps use the same desert/industrial theme and as such require very little in the way of new models, textures or sounds.
For L4D each campaign has a unique setting, with unique textures, unique infected model, unique context-sensitive character dialog, unique ambiance, crescendo points, finales.. I mean, even if they skipped all that and just recycled stuff, basing it on the TF2 free content we wouldn't get a new campaign in November. We'd get it a year from now. One new campaign, after 18 months, and it would for the most part, be reused materials. You know a lot of the people who are flipping out over L4D2 would be flipping out at this new campaign complaining about how it took so long to make so why is it another hospital/farm/airport campaign and why can't we have more big events like the plane crash in Dead Air and so on.
So, guess what, instead you get 5 new campaigns. They're ALL NEW, and new characters and some new infected and some new weapons and you're not going to have to wait 800 years for it all. But you will have to pay. But it probably won't suck.
Oh, and as for the whole "Its coming out too soon what are they, EA?" I'm going to take a guess and say that the game has a large part of Valve working on it. Considering the first game took 3 and a half years, and for 2 and a half years was only being worked on by Turtle Rock (Valve South), I'm going to also take a guess and say that the L4D2 team greatly exceeds the average size of the original L4D. Furthermore, you can only expect a game working on established technology to go faster than one that has to build everything from the ground up. Oh noes, its taking less time because there are more people working on it and theres less stuff to work on that isn't playable content. Those moneygrubbing fiends.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
From my own views about it, it's not about wanting L4D2 for free. It's about the fact that L4D2 has somehow made L4D less of a game. It feels like a con.
L4D2 is what L4D should have been, from the looks of it. Normally, this wouldn't be too much of a problem (although "sequel is better than the original" isn't a common thing), what is getting me is the time between L4D and L4D2. It has been less than year (exactly one day less than a year between the release of L4D and L4D2).
They must have started production, or at the very least the design, of L4D2 before or immediately after L4D was released. Coupled with the various promises made about L4D about continually updated content (like TF2), it makes the release of L4D2 a total ###### move, a slap in the face to everyone who bought L4D, as if they deliberately kept stuff out of L4D just so they'd be able to release a new one a ridiculously short amount of time later. It's like "Oh you bought that? Kinda pointless. Here's the same game, only better." As I've probably said a few too many times already, it has left me (and presumably other people) feeling as if the original L4D was just a beta test that we all got conned into paying for.
Added to all of that, it's Valve. Valve are supposed to be the cool ones. They're not EA, deliberately gimping games so they can then release loads of "expansions" that turn the game into what we were promised in the first place (Spore, for example), or releasing MADDEN 20XX, NOW WITH UPDATED NAMES every year. They've Valve. It just makes it hurt more.
<!--quoteo(post=1711112:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:54 PM:name=ANeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ANeM @ Jun 8 2009, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] new characters [...] probably won't suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Colour me DEEPLY skeptical. I don't have any strong opinions either way regarding anything else, but everything I've seen about the new characters sucks ass. Give me the original four back. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
It seems to me that most people(including myself) feel that this is a bit out of character for valve. I agree that TF2 has little in the way new content( if you look at it like that), but valve has kept releasing(and still is) patches and updates to ensure that the game can continued to be played. TF2 also custom maps and everything needed to make a game last longer. L4D does not. They have made the map tools available but no way to post your work, or even play it as far as I know. Valve has also kept it promises about TF2 and others, even if they took years, they still did it. However since this is a direct sequel to L4D and not another game, I can assume valve will not be updating the original. This is where most of the concerns arise.
<!--quoteo(post=1711112:date=Jun 8 2009, 06:54 AM:name=ANeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ANeM @ Jun 8 2009, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm having some trouble understanding the outrage thing here, especially with the whole "It should have been free LOOK AT TF2!!!" For TF2 Valve has made 3 new payload maps, 4 new arena maps, which are smaller and less complex than other maps and 18 weapons, over half of which are small modifications of other weapons. Oh, and most of the maps use the same desert/industrial theme and as such require very little in the way of new models, textures or sounds.
For L4D each campaign has a unique setting, with unique textures, unique infected model, unique context-sensitive character dialog, unique ambiance, crescendo points, finales.. I mean, even if they skipped all that and just recycled stuff, basing it on the TF2 free content we wouldn't get a new campaign in November. We'd get it a year from now. One new campaign, after 18 months, and it would for the most part, be reused materials. You know a lot of the people who are flipping out over L4D2 would be flipping out at this new campaign complaining about how it took so long to make so why is it another hospital/farm/airport campaign and why can't we have more big events like the plane crash in Dead Air and so on.
So, guess what, instead you get 5 new campaigns. They're ALL NEW, and new characters and some new infected and some new weapons and you're not going to have to wait 800 years for it all. But you will have to pay. But it probably won't suck.
Oh, and as for the whole "Its coming out too soon what are they, EA?" I'm going to take a guess and say that the game has a large part of Valve working on it. Considering the first game took 3 and a half years, and for 2 and a half years was only being worked on by Turtle Rock (Valve South), I'm going to also take a guess and say that the L4D2 team greatly exceeds the average size of the original L4D. Furthermore, you can only expect a game working on established technology to go faster than one that has to build everything from the ground up. Oh noes, its taking less time because there are more people working on it and theres less stuff to work on that isn't playable content. Those moneygrubbing fiends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> L4D wasn't worth $50.00 to begin with. There was a HUGE segment of people who bought it firstly to support valve in their foray into experimental gaming avenues, and secondly, BECAUSE Valve promised there would be a bunch more content rolling out. The issue isn't that L4D2 isn't enough content to be a new game, the issue is that L4D was never enough content to be a full game to begin with, and Valve is ###### the fans who chose to support them on it anyways. L4D fans aren't demanding L4D2 content to be free, but we feel betrayed that so little content was put in L4D to begin with, now that valve wants to sell all the new content that was supposed to be in the first game originally, as an entirely new AAA title.
<!--quoteo(post=1711330:date=Jun 9 2009, 04:04 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Jun 9 2009, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->L4D wasn't worth $50.00 to begin with. There was a HUGE segment of people who bought it firstly to support valve in their foray into experimental gaming avenues, and secondly, BECAUSE Valve promised there would be a bunch more content rolling out. The issue isn't that L4D2 isn't enough content to be a new game, the issue is that L4D was never enough content to be a full game to begin with, and Valve is ###### the fans who chose to support them on it anyways. L4D fans aren't demanding L4D2 content to be free, but we feel betrayed that so little content was put in L4D to begin with, now that valve wants to sell all the new content that was supposed to be in the first game originally, as an entirely new AAA title.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Largely agree. I paid the price I did for L4D on faith that it would be updated over time to yield its value. What I got in the box was <b>not</b> worth the cash. I feel ripped off because I see L4D2 containing the content that I thought I'd be getting as a part of my purchase of L4D.
I just think its ###### that they are releasing L4D2 around the same time as NS2... Supporting their mods my ass. Sort of curious what some of of the NS2 developers think about this... and if it will affect NS2 sales.
NS2 is not a mod, and has nothing to do with Valve. Also, the two games are radically different, so it is unlikely that it'll matter much. And finally, they're releasing it in November to cash in on elevated sales during the holiday season - just like UWE is doing with NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1711358:date=Jun 9 2009, 09:58 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 9 2009, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is not a mod, and has nothing to do with Valve. Also, the two games are radically different, so it is unlikely that it'll matter much. And finally, they're releasing it in November to cash in on elevated sales during the holiday season - just like UWE is doing with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is a mod, NS2 came from that with same developers, Valve not supporting their developers? works better for you?
And please, paid $50 for an incomplete game that had a broken matchmaking system and bugs up the ass. In my opinion, the "full" version wasnt released until April when they gave us that update.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea to release a game and let players beta test it while the dev's fix all the quirks with it and make it better, but once you finally get things straightened out, dont release a sequel 6 months later that will probably cost $50 (we will see about the price).
<!--quoteo(post=1711434:date=Jun 9 2009, 07:48 PM:name=Cronus101)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cronus101 @ Jun 9 2009, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is a mod, NS2 came from that with same developers, Valve not supporting their developers? works better for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it doesn't. They're not "their (Valve's) developers." Valve had a stake in NS1 because you needed Half-Life to play it, they don't have any stake in NS2. They don't owe UWE an eternal debt because they made NS1.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
<!--quoteo(post=1711434:date=Jun 9 2009, 06:48 PM:name=Cronus101)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cronus101 @ Jun 9 2009, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is a mod, NS2 came from that with same developers, Valve not supporting their developers? works better for you?
And please, paid $50 for an incomplete game that had a broken matchmaking system and bugs up the ass. In my opinion, the "full" version wasnt released until April when they gave us that update.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea to release a game and let players beta test it while the dev's fix all the quirks with it and make it better, but once you finally get things straightened out, dont release a sequel 6 months later that will probably cost $50 (we will see about the price).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea what you are playing at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If someone makes a mod on your engine, you owe them for life. Have to make sure you never release any project on the same day forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1711434:date=Jun 9 2009, 05:48 PM:name=Cronus101)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cronus101 @ Jun 9 2009, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is a mod, NS2 came from that with same developers, Valve not supporting their developers? works better for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realise these guys aren't shy of the industry, Charlie, Max, Andrew etc. they've all worked on professional titles before, during and after the making of NS1? They're just game developers, whether the platform is the Half-Life 1 engine as a modification or an in-house engine it doesn't matter. There is no reason UWE have to support Valve when I'm pretty sure they'll be paying a fair chunk to Valve for Steam distribution of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1711965:date=Jun 12 2009, 07:49 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 12 2009, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could say that Left 4 Dead has been... LEFT FOR DEAD
AH AH AH AH<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even I wasn't going to go that low <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1712022:date=Jun 12 2009, 06:09 PM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CoolCookieCooks @ Jun 12 2009, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it bad that I actually laughed when I read that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, go stand in the corner <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
My 2 cents: Valve's ###### it's fans over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It just grew 5000 this day.
Valve generally listens to it's costumers though.
For TF2 Valve has made 3 new payload maps, 4 new arena maps, which are smaller and less complex than other maps and 18 weapons, over half of which are small modifications of other weapons.
Oh, and most of the maps use the same desert/industrial theme and as such require very little in the way of new models, textures or sounds.
For L4D each campaign has a unique setting, with unique textures, unique infected model, unique context-sensitive character dialog, unique ambiance, crescendo points, finales..
I mean, even if they skipped all that and just recycled stuff, basing it on the TF2 free content we wouldn't get a new campaign in November. We'd get it a year from now. One new campaign, after 18 months, and it would for the most part, be reused materials. You know a lot of the people who are flipping out over L4D2 would be flipping out at this new campaign complaining about how it took so long to make so why is it another hospital/farm/airport campaign and why can't we have more big events like the plane crash in Dead Air and so on.
So, guess what, instead you get 5 new campaigns. They're ALL NEW, and new characters and some new infected and some new weapons and you're not going to have to wait 800 years for it all.
But you will have to pay. But it probably won't suck.
Oh, and as for the whole "Its coming out too soon what are they, EA?"
I'm going to take a guess and say that the game has a large part of Valve working on it. Considering the first game took 3 and a half years, and for 2 and a half years was only being worked on by Turtle Rock (Valve South), I'm going to also take a guess and say that the L4D2 team greatly exceeds the average size of the original L4D.
Furthermore, you can only expect a game working on established technology to go faster than one that has to build everything from the ground up.
Oh noes, its taking less time because there are more people working on it and theres less stuff to work on that isn't playable content. Those moneygrubbing fiends.
L4D2 is what L4D should have been, from the looks of it. Normally, this wouldn't be too much of a problem (although "sequel is better than the original" isn't a common thing), what is getting me is the time between L4D and L4D2. It has been less than year (exactly one day less than a year between the release of L4D and L4D2).
They must have started production, or at the very least the design, of L4D2 before or immediately after L4D was released. Coupled with the various promises made about L4D about continually updated content (like TF2), it makes the release of L4D2 a total ###### move, a slap in the face to everyone who bought L4D, as if they deliberately kept stuff out of L4D just so they'd be able to release a new one a ridiculously short amount of time later. It's like "Oh you bought that? Kinda pointless. Here's the same game, only better." As I've probably said a few too many times already, it has left me (and presumably other people) feeling as if the original L4D was just a beta test that we all got conned into paying for.
Added to all of that, it's Valve. Valve are supposed to be the cool ones. They're not EA, deliberately gimping games so they can then release loads of "expansions" that turn the game into what we were promised in the first place (Spore, for example), or releasing MADDEN 20XX, NOW WITH UPDATED NAMES every year. They've Valve. It just makes it hurt more.
Colour me DEEPLY skeptical. I don't have any strong opinions either way regarding anything else, but everything I've seen about the new characters sucks ass. Give me the original four back. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I lol'd.
-IMHO
For TF2 Valve has made 3 new payload maps, 4 new arena maps, which are smaller and less complex than other maps and 18 weapons, over half of which are small modifications of other weapons.
Oh, and most of the maps use the same desert/industrial theme and as such require very little in the way of new models, textures or sounds.
For L4D each campaign has a unique setting, with unique textures, unique infected model, unique context-sensitive character dialog, unique ambiance, crescendo points, finales..
I mean, even if they skipped all that and just recycled stuff, basing it on the TF2 free content we wouldn't get a new campaign in November. We'd get it a year from now. One new campaign, after 18 months, and it would for the most part, be reused materials. You know a lot of the people who are flipping out over L4D2 would be flipping out at this new campaign complaining about how it took so long to make so why is it another hospital/farm/airport campaign and why can't we have more big events like the plane crash in Dead Air and so on.
So, guess what, instead you get 5 new campaigns. They're ALL NEW, and new characters and some new infected and some new weapons and you're not going to have to wait 800 years for it all.
But you will have to pay. But it probably won't suck.
Oh, and as for the whole "Its coming out too soon what are they, EA?"
I'm going to take a guess and say that the game has a large part of Valve working on it. Considering the first game took 3 and a half years, and for 2 and a half years was only being worked on by Turtle Rock (Valve South), I'm going to also take a guess and say that the L4D2 team greatly exceeds the average size of the original L4D.
Furthermore, you can only expect a game working on established technology to go faster than one that has to build everything from the ground up.
Oh noes, its taking less time because there are more people working on it and theres less stuff to work on that isn't playable content. Those moneygrubbing fiends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L4D wasn't worth $50.00 to begin with. There was a HUGE segment of people who bought it firstly to support valve in their foray into experimental gaming avenues, and secondly, BECAUSE Valve promised there would be a bunch more content rolling out. The issue isn't that L4D2 isn't enough content to be a new game, the issue is that L4D was never enough content to be a full game to begin with, and Valve is ###### the fans who chose to support them on it anyways. L4D fans aren't demanding L4D2 content to be free, but we feel betrayed that so little content was put in L4D to begin with, now that valve wants to sell all the new content that was supposed to be in the first game originally, as an entirely new AAA title.
Largely agree. I paid the price I did for L4D on faith that it would be updated over time to yield its value. What I got in the box was <b>not</b> worth the cash. I feel ripped off because I see L4D2 containing the content that I thought I'd be getting as a part of my purchase of L4D.
--Scythe--
NS is a mod, NS2 came from that with same developers, Valve not supporting their developers? works better for you?
And please, paid $50 for an incomplete game that had a broken matchmaking system and bugs up the ass. In my opinion, the "full" version wasnt released until April when they gave us that update.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea to release a game and let players beta test it while the dev's fix all the quirks with it and make it better, but once you finally get things straightened out, dont release a sequel 6 months later that will probably cost $50 (we will see about the price).
No, it doesn't. They're not "their (Valve's) developers." Valve had a stake in NS1 because you needed Half-Life to play it, they don't have any stake in NS2. They don't owe UWE an eternal debt because they made NS1.
And please, paid $50 for an incomplete game that had a broken matchmaking system and bugs up the ass. In my opinion, the "full" version wasnt released until April when they gave us that update.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea to release a game and let players beta test it while the dev's fix all the quirks with it and make it better, but once you finally get things straightened out, dont release a sequel 6 months later that will probably cost $50 (we will see about the price).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, whaaat?
I have no idea what you are playing at.
I have no idea what you are playing at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone makes a mod on your engine, you owe them for life. Have to make sure you never release any project on the same day forever.
You realise these guys aren't shy of the industry, Charlie, Max, Andrew etc. they've all worked on professional titles before, during and after the making of NS1? They're just game developers, whether the platform is the Half-Life 1 engine as a modification or an in-house engine it doesn't matter. There is no reason UWE have to support Valve when I'm pretty sure they'll be paying a fair chunk to Valve for Steam distribution of NS2.
AH AH AH AH
Left 2 Buy
...man, none told me it was hard being witty.
AH AH AH AH<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even I wasn't going to go that low <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Yes, go stand in the corner <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
*sees man in corner motion frantically*
Wait the joke's dead all ready? Are you sure? I mean I just got here...
*man motions angrily*
So what? I had this awesome joke. See the name is Left 4 Dead and I was going be all like...
*man shoots*
*dies*