I respect that the current way of doing things in NS1 is generally preferred and more suitable over the suggestion I OP'ed. That's fine and I partially agree.
But the whole "You'd never be able to hit a blinking fade" argument is just plain short-sighted as this all could be appropriately balanced! It could even be more fun and exciting than before!
Makes me fear for the future of NS2... if all advances on gameplay are doomed to be mindlessly rejected by an over-nostalgic community.
Kind of reminds me of the fall of the Tribes series. RIP :*(
Anyway brace yourselves people because I damn near sure that at least variable-cone-of-fire when crounching, running, jumping, etc. is sure to make it into NS2.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1712554:date=Jun 16 2009, 05:38 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 16 2009, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the whole "You'd never be able to hit a blinking fade" argument is just plain short-sighted as this all could be appropriately balanced! It could even be more fun and exciting than before!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The argument is actually more subtle than simple nostalgia. In order to balance fewer bullets hitting you need to make the %dmg-per-bulltet higher. This would change the game significantly and make the combat much more twitch oriented because landing those first few bullets is much more important rather than positioning enough space between you and the enemy.
I think he is referring to the fact that any modification, upgrade, or change suggestion on these forums is immediately shot down by people who just say that the old way is the best way. But my problem with that logic is that this is Natural Selection "2" not NS, if this is just going to turn out to be NS in a new engine it should just be called NS Source just like CS ported to source is called CS Source and Day of Defeat ported to the source engine is called Day of Defeat Source. If its truely going to be version 2 of NS then it should be different but with the same core concepts so enough with the nostalgia already, NS is still available to play so if you want the old tried and true NS go back and play that.
I swear if some of you stubborn old schoolers ran the world we would still be living in caves, hunting with spears and clubs, and living in hunter gatherer tribes.
Just look at Team Fortress 2, there's a reason its not simply called Team Fortress Source, it has the same core concepts of TFC such as the classes and weapons etc but it has all new content and some slight modifications to make the game better than the original hence the reason it is called TF "2".
I would like the choice to be able to take off the scope if i so choose... i dont want a million people that are 100% loyal to ns1 and fear any change at all in ns2 to have any influence on what new players might want. I suggest the devs play americas army 3... it gets released tomorrow and is on steam for preload now... that game has fully configurable weapons... the choice of magnifiying scope... 2 types of reflex sights and plain old iron sights and ya suppressor, or bipod, or grenade launcher/flare launcher... and i'm talking about the old version of americas army from like 4+ years ago... who knows what the new version has... so what i'm saying is the devs should intentionally slow down combat in ns2 for many reasons... first knowone has a computer to play fast paced action of ns1 in a ns2 engine... second... extreme lag from even attempting such fast paced action in ns2... third...it's more fun to have bullets that can kill... that was the most frustrating aspect of ns1... marines had no chance at all until their was 20 of them with hmgs... and even then... just maybe they would win.
So i suggest the devs ignore ns1 for the most part... think of something new that caters both to marines and aliens... not aliens only like ns1. (ns1 is crap... you heard it here first and yes i preordered ns2) And lastly... the ability to kick ass is what people want in a game... they want to be able to sit their with their rifle (rifle as in m14) and take aimed single shots at a single enemy or multiple enemies at a distance... they also like full auto and explosives (explosives that actually kill things... unlike ns1 grenade launcher)... but what they hate most of all is NERFING!!!! NO MORE NERFING!!! FAST PACED SHOULD NOT EQUAL HOW FAST A FADE BLINKS AROUND WITHOUT DIEING... FAST PACED SHOULD BE HOW FAST A FADE ###### DIES TO 4 BULLET TO THE CHEST.
<!--quoteo(post=1712561:date=Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The argument is actually more subtle than simple nostalgia. In order to balance fewer bullets hitting you need to make the %dmg-per-bulltet higher. This would change the game significantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. Agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1712561:date=Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and make the combat much more twitch oriented because landing those first few bullets is much more important rather than positioning enough space between you and the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagreed. I think it would become less twitch oriented. Because variable C.O.F. would force you to aim your shots, control your bursts, and actually the key won't be twitchiness but readiness. Which would mean better squad movement to get the job done.
Also I think that the effect should be quite subtle. Meaning the the first shot need not be pixel accurate nor the spread too big.
Just enough so that the pistol cannot be used as a full-auto recoil sniper rifle (which then gets abused with scripts).
Ultimately bullet spread promotes teamwork and gives newer players a better chance and getting at least luck on their side.
A point many of you might be missing is that more than likely NS2 will not "feel" like NS1. It's being written in an entirely new engine and I don't think that keeping the "feel" of NS1 may be the goal for NS2. I think that things like player speeds are definitely going to get reworked from the ground up. The main concepts will be there but redone. Just having a different engine is enough to almost guarantee that the feel of the original will not the fully reproducible. This is probably not a big deal anyway.
Thank you Neosniper for being one of the few people on these forums who replies with intelligent responses instead of just the simple "no leave it the way it was"
I think the 100% accurate no recoil sniper rifle pistol was retarded in NS1 especially with each bullet doing like 20 damage, you know how many players would just spray a little with the lmg and then use a script with the pistol to shoot fully automatic (faster than the lmg in fact) to deal basically 200 damage to any retreating alien. And not only the 200 damage but it DOESNT MISS, theres no recoil at all, wherever you are aiming thats where all 10 bullets go, SO STUPID.
I think recoil would definitely make the game like you say NeoSniper, more focused on teamwork and coordinated marine movements and less HMG spray everywhere spam. Sure obviously the bullet damage would have to be increased to compensate for the recoil but how is that a bad thing? It punishes the hold left click spamming solo rambo marine and rewards marines who work together and fire in bursts. At the same time it would also allow low hp aliens like the skulk to sneak in for a kill while the marines are focused on other targets instead of a marine that is spraying with a 125 bullet HMG magazine at an onos from just sweeping around to where the skulk is coming from and getting an undeserved kill.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited June 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1712631:date=Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disagreed. I think it would become less twitch oriented. Because variable C.O.F. would force you to aim your shots, control your bursts, and actually the key won't be twitchiness but readiness. Which would mean better squad movement to get the job done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whether you call it twitchiness or readiness, it's the same thing. If you have good reflexes you can rely less on your squad because you can kill more quickly and take on more opponents than NS1. You're talking about a well used game mechanic that 98% of the FPS games out there have, and it doesn't encourage teamwork the way you're describing here. <!--quoteo(post=1712631:date=Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just enough so that the pistol cannot be used as a full-auto recoil sniper rifle (which then gets abused with scripts).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The pistol hasn't been abusable since 1.04, The problem was the lack of ROF cap not the accuracy. Maybe the pistol will have more spread or a slower ROF. I don't mind as long as it's still good for hitting players in vents and finishing shots on fades. <!--quoteo(post=1712631:date=Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A point many of you might be missing is that more than likely NS2 will not "feel" like NS1. It's being written in an entirely new engine and I don't think that keeping the "feel" of NS1 may be the goal for NS2. I think that things like player speeds are definitely going to get reworked from the ground up. The main concepts will be there but redone. Just having a different engine is enough to almost guarantee that the feel of the original will not the fully reproducible. This is probably not a big deal anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to keep the feel of NS1 to be sure; I think it has great atmosphere and flavor. But this isn't about feel, it's about gameplay. <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=5entex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5entex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you Neosniper for being one of the few people on these forums who replies with intelligent responses instead of just the simple "no leave it the way it was"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would hope you'd follow his example and respond with intelligent answers rather than reducing every disagreement to nostalgia strawmen. There's plenty of support in this forum for ironsights and other changes to the game. Just because ideas you happen to like are not supported doesn't mean "every idea is shot down".
You, <b>neosniper</b>, and <b>focusedwolf</b> like a different style of combat gameplay than NS1. That's fine, NS is doing something different and it's not for everybody. That doesn't mean NS is backwards for not having recoil; it was a conscious decision that is one of the reasons combat in NS in unique. I don't accept your argument that it promotes teamwork because I've played with it in plenty of other games and I haven't seen it promote teamwork. I don't accept the argument it would decrease "HMG spam" because spam would be more effective since fewer bullets are required to hit and spray and pray is present in every FPS game out there.
I agree it would be easier for newbies to pick up simply because they've seen it in every other FPS they've played, but I don't think this is a very good reason on its own, especially when it would increase the skill gap by the same amount. If you hate undying fades now, wait until you can't bite a good marine to save your life because he can kill you in 4 lmg bullets.
Ok so you replied to my comment that NeoSniper is one of the few who intelligently responds to forum posts but then you fail to say anything at all about my analysis of recoil etc. You just proved my point.
And secondly, you say that recoil would not prevent HMG spam because it would take less bullets to get a kill, that doesn't make any sense. Currently in NS1 HMG spam exists because there is NO recoil you just hold down left click and keep shooting at everything that moves without regard = spam. There's almost no skill required to aim a gun with a 125 round magazine that has no recoil, the only factors that really can make you better is a) the twitch aiming you claim recoil would create and b) how high your mouse sensitivity is set. With recoil holding down left click would not be beneficial anymore because the bullets would be going all over the place regardless of how much damage each bullet does. And my arguments are not simply that everyone here is just nostalgic, I say that to start off my posts and then follow it up with a pretty detailed explanation to support my claims. I'd say each of my posts are about 3-4 times longer than the average post on these forums because I actually take the time to come up with a decent thoughtful response.
Bottom line is that you will never have the NS1 feel in a brand new engine, it just won't happen. The game mechanics will be different, guaranteed. Again take a look at Day Of Defeat Source. They wanted to keep the same exact feel of DoD original but it just didn't work, new engines can't just work the same way as the old one in terms of fluidity and mechanics.
Again, this game is called Natural Selection, which is a process of EVOLUTION, why won't anyone allow this game to get better. Enough with the same old, and embrace the new. Obviously the game is going to be based on the original NS1 but it won't be the same so accept it now before you are disappointed and cry later.
EDIT: Oh and those games you claim that recoil does not increase teamwork, those are human vs human games where its two sides shooting at eachother. When you have shooting vs aliens the whole recoil increasing marine teamwork is drastically increased because you aren't shooting low health humans anymore, with skulks perhaps but its going to require teamwork to take down a blinking fade with recoil, as well as a rampaging onos provided in NS2 they make the onos less clumsy.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so you replied to my comment that NeoSniper is one of the few who intelligently responds to forum posts but then you fail to say anything at all about my analysis of recoil etc. You just proved my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just restated <b>neosniper</b>'s arguments which I did address in turn. This does nothing to support your arguments for recoil nor your "no leave it the way it was" strawman. <!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And secondly, you say that recoil would not prevent HMG spam because it would take less bullets to get a kill, that doesn't make any sense. Currently in NS1 HMG spam exists because there is NO recoil you just hold down left click and keep shooting at everything that moves without regard = spam. ... With recoil holding down left click would not be beneficial anymore because the bullets would be going all over the place regardless of how much damage each bullet does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It makes sense if you read my above post that <b>neosniper</b> was responding to. If you add recoil to the game fewer bullets will hit on average so bullets must do more %dmg per bullet(accomplished either by more dmg or lower health) to maintain balance. That is just how recoil works. This means Spray and Pray will be more effective because you require fewer bullets to hit. There's all ready a random spread on the guns in NS, recoil would just make them more random and have higher rewards for getting lucky. With or without recoil a gun with a 125 bullet clip will be used to shoot at everything that moves. <!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's almost no skill required to aim a gun with a 125 round magazine that has no recoil, the only factors that really can make you better is a) the twitch aiming you claim recoil would create and b) how high your mouse sensitivity is set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And tracking, meaning you have to predict and follow your opponents movements instead of relying on that first bit of twitch skill for everything. And timing and positioning, because you need more time to get more bullets into the enemy. <!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And my arguments are not simply that everyone here is just nostalgic, I say that to start off my posts and then follow it up with a pretty detailed explanation to support my claims. I'd say each of my posts are about 3-4 times longer than the average post on these forums because I actually take the time to come up with a decent thoughtful response.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your first statement belies the sentiment your entire post and prevents you from accepting other viewpoints. I'm not telling you to stop liking recoil or that it's bad; I'm just explaining how it would change NS and why many don't find it desirable. Again you're entitled to your opinion, but please understand that playstyle != nostalgia. <!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line is that you will never have the NS1 feel in a brand new engine, it just won't happen. The game mechanics will be different, guaranteed. Again take a look at Day Of Defeat Source. They wanted to keep the same exact feel of DoD original but it just didn't work, new engines can't just work the same way as the old one in terms of fluidity and mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, but this doesn't support your arguments. Change for the sake of change is not good; change that adds something to the game is good. This is why I said your first statement belies your post. We're not arguing against change in general, just <i>this</i> change. <!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Oh and those games you claim that recoil does not increase teamwork, those are human vs human games where its two sides shooting at eachother. When you have shooting vs aliens the whole recoil increasing marine teamwork is drastically increased because you aren't shooting low health humans anymore, with skulks perhaps but its going to require teamwork to take down a blinking fade with recoil, as well as a rampaging onos provided in NS2 they make the onos less clumsy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS all ready has these attributes. As I said above, Since recoil would allow more dmg output from a marine it would allow them to be more self-sufficient and not increase teamwork.
I think we should make it like guns are in real life. That will step on all the toes of people that have no idea... and everyone knoweledgable on the topic will appreciate it.
So yes... guns should overheat and jam and fail and become less accurate at longer ranges (and i stress that long range means long 300 yd range)... but just the same... guns should be deadly in the hands of the skilled and clumsy, but capable, in the hands of the new player. Pistols will be more deadly in close quarters just like in real life where a handgun has more killing power then a m16 in close quarters... just the same the pistol will be inaccurate after like 50 ft to the point where you could miss a skulk that you are aiming dead at. Use a rifle if you want accuracy right.... A SMG would be perfect for some maps... your firing pistol bullets and high speed... thats a real killer in close quarters... etc... and then a shotgun... 1 shot multiple kills... their should be a choice between a slug (kill fade in 1 shot) or buckshot (kill multiple fades in 1 shot)
HMG should not be >>> really better then LMG all the time... it should be a choice of the commander (NO SCRATCH THAT... YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON) and guns should all be free at the very start of the game... lmgs and hmgs should have their own purpose and do it very well... a lmg should kill a fade just as much as a hmg... but different accuracies and ammo loads and recoils. Btw we are calling lmgs by the appropriate name of smg from here on in... so if someone wants a smg or a lmg (the 250 round machine gun from NS1) then the commander should not have to freak but know both have their purpose just like someone requesting a shotgun or grenade launcher in NS1 to do a job (NO SCRATCH THAT... YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON) commander can SUGGEST what weapon is needed where "flamethrowers go here" but only an individual player will know what their good with.
Here's the big thing... perhaps a feature where the player can customize their weapons rate of fire.... so maybe have a hmg that hits more accurately and shoots less rapid so as to conserve ammo ON CERTAIN MAPS... but in other occasions, in close quarters, you want your weapon to blaze through at 90 rounds a second to STAND A CHANCE IN CLOSE QUARTERS (sorry but in NS1 a marine with a hmg stood no chance against a fade if they were in close quarters... we need to address that problem... either remove fades or make guns work)
Recoil FTW. Without recoil, firing an lmg feels like I'm shooting a water gun and really is an embarrassing default weapon experience. The HMG's awesome sound effects made up for this somewhat. I suggest that the devs actually TRY to add some recoil to NS2 and see how it feels before they make their decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1712635:date=Jun 17 2009, 06:04 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you Neosniper for being one of the few people on these forums who replies with intelligent responses instead of just the simple "no leave it the way it was"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh well, let me sum my views up
- The movement based inaccuracy: NS is movement based. It's not necessarily better than the more 'static' FPS games, but a matter of preference. Nevertheless, the market is flooded with those semi-realistic shooters with movement inaccuracy and recoil. NS on the other hand stands out by being very dynamic with all the possible movement options while still maintaining a decent firepower.
The lack of movement based recoil also encourages people to move around instead of securing certain spots on the map. I'd say this is a virtue as most other games tend to provoke camping without any real strategical purpose on public servers.
-The 'upwards kick' recoil: Well, whatever. I could live with it, but I can't see that much point in it in a game like NS. Most of the fights are in close quarters anyway, so the effect on accuracy wouldn't be too big. On the other hand it might cause inexperienced players some more rough learning curve before they could get even skulk kills regularly. All in all I can't see that much gain for the extra complexity it adds.
-The inaccuracy on longer bursts: Once again, the close quarters negate most of the effects. On longer range pistol is quite powerful, but then again on even skill play it adds some features to the game and doesn't cause that many issues. Nevertheless as locallyunscene mentioned, the inaccuracy would most likely turn the game a bit more into twitch based game as the lost accuracy would most likely be replaced by extra damage. Once again, I can't see any real gain and on the other hand it adds an unnecessary random factor. Also note that the inability to damage fleeing aliens effectively doesn't really promote aliens committing to frags as it's just a lot easier to chicken out.
---
Most of all NS has got huge strenghts in it's gameplay that encourages people to move and react to situations instead of fighting the positional fights. It's like the creativity and dynamics of deathmatch combined with the strategy of tactical shooters mixed up in a good way.
I think <b>locallyunscene</b> addressed the nostalgia and teamwork questions quite nicely. The change isn't good just for the sake of change (especially while we are talking about the very core of NS' awesome and unique fight mechanics). The teamwork elements are there already, I fail to see how recoil contributes there.
... And long post doesn't equal good arguments. I really envy some (mostly native english speakers) for their ability to keep their posts compact and yet very informative and convinsing.
Wolf, sorry but no, this isn't CoD 4, like I said in the bullet specialization thread, you are trying to turn this into counter-strike or CoD4 and your suggestions are so ridiculus I don't even know if I should take you seriously or if you are trolling.
The thing is, I think the weapon recoil should be roughly similar to NS1 where the HMG had a random spray pattern if you were shooting the same spot, it still spread a bit and I think to solve the problem you mentioned of not being able to damage fleeing aliens which would make them more hit and run. What about my idea of the ironsights slowing fire rate a bit while offsetting the slower fire speed for increased accuracy or damage. That way the guns would fire similiarly to NS1, you wouldnt HAVE to use ironsights but if you saw a fleeing alien you knew was low on life you could bring up the ironsights and perhaps take a couple of accurate shots as the coup de grace.
You know, that's what I never understood about Iron Sights in games. How the hell is it possible that you actually -zoom in- when you bring the gun up to your eye? It's not a bloody scope.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->its 100% unrealistic and retarded to fire a rifle from the hip<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Consider first, that these are close quarters. Then go read the wikipedia article on Point Shooting, which I linked earlier.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But my problem with that logic is that this is Natural Selection "2" not NS, if this is just going to turn out to be NS in a new engine it should just be called NS Source just like CS ported to source is called CS Source and Day of Defeat ported to the source engine is called Day of Defeat Source. If its truely going to be version 2 of NS then it should be different but with the same core concepts so enough with the nostalgia already, NS is still available to play so if you want the old tried and true NS go back and play that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with that argument is that NS2 won't be on the Source engine... No, but seriously. There's enough that's been changed as it is (alien commander, MULTIPLE commanders, power grid, two resources, marines buying their own weapons, MOBILE siege cannons, dynamic infestation, re-models of everything, new maps, and much more). There's the "2" you're looking for. You complain that we don't acknowledge that it's a sequel, but you yourself are losing the plot. You're focusing only on the "2", and completely forgetting about the "Natural Selection". You dont' understand that it's not an entirely new and different game, nor should it be. If it were, then don't even call it 'Natural Selection' 2; it wouldn't be right. The fact of the matter is, iron sights and recoil would not be Natural Selection. But I'm sure they could very well be a "2", like uh, <b>Counter Strike 2</b>, perhaps.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the 100% accurate no recoil sniper rifle pistol was retarded in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh. Regarding this... Would be nice to make the pistol more of a cannon (long-ass barrel) in that respect. Look at Alucard's pistols (from the Anime/Manga series Hellsing) for an example. Or perhaps have a look at bullpup pistols... like the Seburo C-X for example (also fictional). <img src="http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/Seburo_C-X.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1712591:date=Jun 17 2009, 09:01 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 17 2009, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>so what i'm saying is the devs should intentionally slow down combat in ns2</b> for many reasons... first knowone has a computer to play fast paced action of ns1 in a ns2 engine... second... extreme lag from even attempting such fast paced action in ns2... third...it's more fun to have bullets that can kill... that was the most frustrating aspect of ns1... marines had no chance at all until their was 20 of them with hmgs... and even then... just maybe they would win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree with everything you say here. But I will pick on one particular point. For me, Natural Selection's <b>biggest hook</b> was the fast-paced omni-directional action. Take that away and it's no longer Natural Selection.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So i suggest the devs ignore ns1 for the most part...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because NS1 was <b>so</b> unsuccessful, right? Because the fact that it's called "<b>Natural Selection</b> 2" means it has <b>nothing</b> to do with Natural Selection, right? You and 5emtex seriously need to step back for a minute and consider what you're suggesting.
Sorry but I think you are taking someone elses arguements and mixing them with mine and saying we are both in favor of the same things.
In response to your criticism of the iron sights zooming in, first of all you have no idea if that aspect would be implemented with the iron sights were that change added to the game. There are many games that incorporate iron sights but don't zoom in when you do so (ex. Americas Army 3). The basic concept behind that zoom in is that when firing from the hip there is no zoom to add to the inaccuracy of shooting from the hip, whereas when you bring it up to your shoulder the makers of the game want to give the player an accuracy bonus by letting you see targets a little better than if you were firing from the hip. I'm not argueing whether its realistic or not, I'm just pointing out the logic behind it for you. It has nothing to do with the iron sights being a scope, it's just a reward in accuracy for using the weapon as intended.
With that being said, the other arguements the other poster made that you didn't agree with I also don't agree with so please don't say that both him and I want the same things, it's fairly insulting. I never said I wanted to slow the game down, on the contrary I think the fast paced nature of NS like you said is what makes the game so awesome. My suggestions were just minor gripes like a little bit of accuracy improvement if the player decides to use optional iron sights etc etc. Slowing the game down because the poster thinks that no one has a computer capable of running the game at full speed is a crappy arguement at best.
It's funny because this is going nowhere. I know that you'll think I'm not adding anything anything to the conversation, and you'll be right because everything's been said already... Ironsights would be out of place in the fast-paced NS world, and recoil management doesn't synergize with celerity skulk tracking.
Accuracy is crucial in real warfare because each fired bullet has lethal power. This is not the case in NS. Maps are too cramped for the need to zoom in. I'm sure that real trained soldiers WOULD use scopes, but this is a game. Adding in ironsights means balancing for them, which in turn means that they need to be used.
What I don't understand is how you figure out that ironsights don't imply game-slowing. Taking a gun to your shoulder takes time, the ability for increased accuracy means that marines will try to move way slower to profit from said accuracy.
Wolf... no guns jams pls. HMG overheat maybe if you give me a good gameplay argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1712775:date=Jun 18 2009, 01:51 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 18 2009, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, that's what I never understood about Iron Sights in games. How the hell is it possible that you actually -zoom in- when you bring the gun up to your eye? It's not a bloody scope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that slight zoom in is meant to represent the fact that you would be focusing your vision down the sights of your gun while losing peripheral focus. I think it works well given the limitations that any computer will have to bring immersion.
<!--quoteo(post=1713194:date=Jun 20 2009, 06:37 PM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frostymoose @ Jun 20 2009, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This might be cool if NS was a coop game playing as marines vs A.I. aliens...
It isn't though.
I don't think NS needs another layer of difficulty and complexity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a good point on the coop thing. Disagree on the complexity.
Moving on... I actually disagree with a lot of the predictions of what a change like this would do to NS. Mainly the "newbies won't be able to hit anything" one. I think when a newbie freaks out at the sight of a fast moving alien approaching him while jumping around the room. Two things would happen. 1) They'll have trouble keeping the crosshair exactly on the alien. 2) They'll keep mouse1 pressed until either they empty their clip or the alien dies/retreats. Having the accuracy worsen at sustained fire would actually HELP the newbie get more bullets into the alien. Allowing him greater chances than 0.1% against a very skilled alien player.
Also fundamentally NS should be about part of the team defending and part attacking. Generally newer players tend to play defensively. It NOT about two teams "dynamically" running around a circle (read map) until one side manages to catch the others tail.
I find NS to be very balanced. So its not like I'm asking for balancing. I think if done right the accuracy effect would give better chances to new players to make a difference in combat and would slightly reduce the power of the griefing-god players. While still allowing for growth and improvement. While not messing with the general balance of the game.
Ultimately what I think NS2 should really focus on is on being instantly fun for newer players (willing to play as a team) so that they stick around long enough to learn the ins and out of the RTS side of the game. Also still rewarding for veterans. We all love NS1 mostly because its a rewarding game where the more you play the better you get at it. However the "hazing" you have to go through probably has made us lose a significant amount of potential install base.
I'm not fully satisfied with this post but I gtg now. Hope it makes enough sense.
PS: Thanks for the prop on me making good point and stuff. This is like the only forum where I am "active". Partly because I love playing NS and because the NS community is one of the few in which there are a fair amount of people able to discuss topics in a civil manner. Those two reasons are probably more closely related than I realize.
Playing with iron sights in a game like DoD or BF2, I don't mind. I'm not knocking iron sights on the whole. But my point was, it's unrealistic to 'zoom in' when you bring your eye up to the sights, when a big (probably the main) part of the iron sights idea is to make the game more realistic.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I suppose you could say that zooming in is the perspective. Cos when you are shooting from the hip, your perspective is wider but if you use ironsights, you tend to simply focus on where the ironsights are aiming, thus the decrease in field of view and more focus on what you are aiming on, the zooming in effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1714903:date=Jun 30 2009, 08:40 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Jun 30 2009, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose you could say that zooming in is the perspective. Cos when you are shooting from the hip, your perspective is wider but if you use ironsights, you tend to simply focus on where the ironsights are aiming, thus the decrease in field of view and more focus on what you are aiming on, the zooming in effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well no. If anything that just means your peripheral vision should become blurrier.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Come on. It's just a game effect. It doesn't have to be super realistic. From a gaming aesthetic point of view, it is just one way to show that you are aiming down ironsights.
I very much disagree with iron sights, that's more for games where you 'stay at a distance' from the enemy. In NS chances are you see the enemy, you start shooting the enemy, the enemy is either dead or on your toes. At what point would iron sights be useful? If you pull them up at the start the time for the alien to be on top of you probably isn't much longer than the time to aim down the sights, but then the enemy's on you so you have to drop your sights, and now your dead.
Aim decreasing (ie your crosshair and bullet spread becoming larger) with movement and maintained fire could be a worthwhile implementation, it would promote marines to take up defensive positions and burst fire rather than hopping and running round the room spraying bullets constantly. Actual recoil (ie your view moving from firing) may be a bit to much, maybe with HMGs but even then I'm dubious.
And no gun-jams please, if you need an explanation nanites constantly clean the working parts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actual recoil (ie your view moving from firing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ..isn't directly related to your barrel traveling up, which you obviously meant.
Decreasing accuracy during sustained fire simulates the increasing pain one feels when shooting without a break cause to tired muscles or something like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1715095:date=Jul 1 2009, 09:24 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 1 2009, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..isn't directly related to your barrel traveling up, which you obviously meant.
Decreasing accuracy during sustained fire simulates the increasing pain one feels when shooting without a break cause to tired muscles or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes most games throw your view all over the place as 'recoil', that's what I was trying to get across.
*edit* And to clarify, this is not what I want. I want the view to remain still.
I did enjoy the no-recoild thing in ns 1, but I never really thought about it on a low-level basis. I thought that it made the game more like a strategy game, because it made the combat more consistent, forcing teams to think more about the game strategy instead of relying on individual skill (even though that is also important). Seeing recoild and spread would be interesting, but it might boil down to either doing it properly or not doing it at all.... BUT we don't know how NS 2 will play yet and it is yet to be seen if this kind of game mechanic fits in NS 2. I also think that we can't compare NS 2 with NS 1 yet... since we haven't played both of them :)
agreed, no gun jams, its the future- already they the army has weaponry that dont jam as much, think when they have space travel. Unless its an alien special attack(lerk gas type?)
Recoil could go well but iron sights may be bit ugh. alien right in front of you- got a decent sense of judgment anyone can hip fire it- generally aliens aren't long range as it is so doesn't matter the most. recoil on the other hand may be decent, as said earlier, newbies may spray and may miss alot, sometimes the spray may tag the aliens giving them a chance of hitting.
Comments
But the whole "You'd never be able to hit a blinking fade" argument is just plain short-sighted as this all could be appropriately balanced! It could even be more fun and exciting than before!
Makes me fear for the future of NS2... if all advances on gameplay are doomed to be mindlessly rejected by an over-nostalgic community.
Kind of reminds me of the fall of the Tribes series. RIP :*(
Anyway brace yourselves people because I damn near sure that at least variable-cone-of-fire when crounching, running, jumping, etc. is sure to make it into NS2.
The argument is actually more subtle than simple nostalgia. In order to balance fewer bullets hitting you need to make the %dmg-per-bulltet higher. This would change the game significantly and make the combat much more twitch oriented because landing those first few bullets is much more important rather than positioning enough space between you and the enemy.
I swear if some of you stubborn old schoolers ran the world we would still be living in caves, hunting with spears and clubs, and living in hunter gatherer tribes.
Just look at Team Fortress 2, there's a reason its not simply called Team Fortress Source, it has the same core concepts of TFC such as the classes and weapons etc but it has all new content and some slight modifications to make the game better than the original hence the reason it is called TF "2".
So i suggest the devs ignore ns1 for the most part... think of something new that caters both to marines and aliens... not aliens only like ns1. (ns1 is crap... you heard it here first and yes i preordered ns2) And lastly... the ability to kick ass is what people want in a game... they want to be able to sit their with their rifle (rifle as in m14) and take aimed single shots at a single enemy or multiple enemies at a distance... they also like full auto and explosives (explosives that actually kill things... unlike ns1 grenade launcher)... but what they hate most of all is NERFING!!!! NO MORE NERFING!!! FAST PACED SHOULD NOT EQUAL HOW FAST A FADE BLINKS AROUND WITHOUT DIEING... FAST PACED SHOULD BE HOW FAST A FADE ###### DIES TO 4 BULLET TO THE CHEST.
Fair enough. Agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1712561:date=Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 16 2009, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and make the combat much more twitch oriented because landing those first few bullets is much more important rather than positioning enough space between you and the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagreed. I think it would become less twitch oriented. Because variable C.O.F. would force you to aim your shots, control your bursts, and actually the key won't be twitchiness but readiness. Which would mean better squad movement to get the job done.
Also I think that the effect should be quite subtle. Meaning the the first shot need not be pixel accurate nor the spread too big.
Just enough so that the pistol cannot be used as a full-auto recoil sniper rifle (which then gets abused with scripts).
Ultimately bullet spread promotes teamwork and gives newer players a better chance and getting at least luck on their side.
A point many of you might be missing is that more than likely NS2 will not "feel" like NS1. It's being written in an entirely new engine and I don't think that keeping the "feel" of NS1 may be the goal for NS2. I think that things like player speeds are definitely going to get reworked from the ground up. The main concepts will be there but redone. Just having a different engine is enough to almost guarantee that the feel of the original will not the fully reproducible. This is probably not a big deal anyway.
I think the 100% accurate no recoil sniper rifle pistol was retarded in NS1 especially with each bullet doing like 20 damage, you know how many players would just spray a little with the lmg and then use a script with the pistol to shoot fully automatic (faster than the lmg in fact) to deal basically 200 damage to any retreating alien. And not only the 200 damage but it DOESNT MISS, theres no recoil at all, wherever you are aiming thats where all 10 bullets go, SO STUPID.
I think recoil would definitely make the game like you say NeoSniper, more focused on teamwork and coordinated marine movements and less HMG spray everywhere spam. Sure obviously the bullet damage would have to be increased to compensate for the recoil but how is that a bad thing? It punishes the hold left click spamming solo rambo marine and rewards marines who work together and fire in bursts. At the same time it would also allow low hp aliens like the skulk to sneak in for a kill while the marines are focused on other targets instead of a marine that is spraying with a 125 bullet HMG magazine at an onos from just sweeping around to where the skulk is coming from and getting an undeserved kill.
Whether you call it twitchiness or readiness, it's the same thing. If you have good reflexes you can rely less on your squad because you can kill more quickly and take on more opponents than NS1. You're talking about a well used game mechanic that 98% of the FPS games out there have, and it doesn't encourage teamwork the way you're describing here.
<!--quoteo(post=1712631:date=Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just enough so that the pistol cannot be used as a full-auto recoil sniper rifle (which then gets abused with scripts).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pistol hasn't been abusable since 1.04, The problem was the lack of ROF cap not the accuracy. Maybe the pistol will have more spread or a slower ROF. I don't mind as long as it's still good for hitting players in vents and finishing shots on fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1712631:date=Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Jun 17 2009, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A point many of you might be missing is that more than likely NS2 will not "feel" like NS1. It's being written in an entirely new engine and I don't think that keeping the "feel" of NS1 may be the goal for NS2. I think that things like player speeds are definitely going to get reworked from the ground up. The main concepts will be there but redone. Just having a different engine is enough to almost guarantee that the feel of the original will not the fully reproducible. This is probably not a big deal anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to keep the feel of NS1 to be sure; I think it has great atmosphere and flavor. But this isn't about feel, it's about gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=5entex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5entex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you Neosniper for being one of the few people on these forums who replies with intelligent responses instead of just the simple "no leave it the way it was"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would hope you'd follow his example and respond with intelligent answers rather than reducing every disagreement to nostalgia strawmen. There's plenty of support in this forum for ironsights and other changes to the game. Just because ideas you happen to like are not supported doesn't mean "every idea is shot down".
You, <b>neosniper</b>, and <b>focusedwolf</b> like a different style of combat gameplay than NS1. That's fine, NS is doing something different and it's not for everybody. That doesn't mean NS is backwards for not having recoil; it was a conscious decision that is one of the reasons combat in NS in unique. I don't accept your argument that it promotes teamwork because I've played with it in plenty of other games and I haven't seen it promote teamwork. I don't accept the argument it would decrease "HMG spam" because spam would be more effective since fewer bullets are required to hit and spray and pray is present in every FPS game out there.
I agree it would be easier for newbies to pick up simply because they've seen it in every other FPS they've played, but I don't think this is a very good reason on its own, especially when it would increase the skill gap by the same amount. If you hate undying fades now, wait until you can't bite a good marine to save your life because he can kill you in 4 lmg bullets.
And secondly, you say that recoil would not prevent HMG spam because it would take less bullets to get a kill, that doesn't make any sense. Currently in NS1 HMG spam exists because there is NO recoil you just hold down left click and keep shooting at everything that moves without regard = spam. There's almost no skill required to aim a gun with a 125 round magazine that has no recoil, the only factors that really can make you better is a) the twitch aiming you claim recoil would create and b) how high your mouse sensitivity is set. With recoil holding down left click would not be beneficial anymore because the bullets would be going all over the place regardless of how much damage each bullet does. And my arguments are not simply that everyone here is just nostalgic, I say that to start off my posts and then follow it up with a pretty detailed explanation to support my claims. I'd say each of my posts are about 3-4 times longer than the average post on these forums because I actually take the time to come up with a decent thoughtful response.
Bottom line is that you will never have the NS1 feel in a brand new engine, it just won't happen. The game mechanics will be different, guaranteed. Again take a look at Day Of Defeat Source. They wanted to keep the same exact feel of DoD original but it just didn't work, new engines can't just work the same way as the old one in terms of fluidity and mechanics.
Again, this game is called Natural Selection, which is a process of EVOLUTION, why won't anyone allow this game to get better. Enough with the same old, and embrace the new. Obviously the game is going to be based on the original NS1 but it won't be the same so accept it now before you are disappointed and cry later.
EDIT: Oh and those games you claim that recoil does not increase teamwork, those are human vs human games where its two sides shooting at eachother. When you have shooting vs aliens the whole recoil increasing marine teamwork is drastically increased because you aren't shooting low health humans anymore, with skulks perhaps but its going to require teamwork to take down a blinking fade with recoil, as well as a rampaging onos provided in NS2 they make the onos less clumsy.
You just restated <b>neosniper</b>'s arguments which I did address in turn. This does nothing to support your arguments for recoil nor your "no leave it the way it was" strawman.
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And secondly, you say that recoil would not prevent HMG spam because it would take less bullets to get a kill, that doesn't make any sense. Currently in NS1 HMG spam exists because there is NO recoil you just hold down left click and keep shooting at everything that moves without regard = spam.
...
With recoil holding down left click would not be beneficial anymore because the bullets would be going all over the place regardless of how much damage each bullet does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes sense if you read my above post that <b>neosniper</b> was responding to. If you add recoil to the game fewer bullets will hit on average so bullets must do more %dmg per bullet(accomplished either by more dmg or lower health) to maintain balance. That is just how recoil works. This means Spray and Pray will be more effective because you require fewer bullets to hit. There's all ready a random spread on the guns in NS, recoil would just make them more random and have higher rewards for getting lucky. With or without recoil a gun with a 125 bullet clip will be used to shoot at everything that moves.
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's almost no skill required to aim a gun with a 125 round magazine that has no recoil, the only factors that really can make you better is a) the twitch aiming you claim recoil would create and b) how high your mouse sensitivity is set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And tracking, meaning you have to predict and follow your opponents movements instead of relying on that first bit of twitch skill for everything.
And timing and positioning, because you need more time to get more bullets into the enemy.
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And my arguments are not simply that everyone here is just nostalgic, I say that to start off my posts and then follow it up with a pretty detailed explanation to support my claims. I'd say each of my posts are about 3-4 times longer than the average post on these forums because I actually take the time to come up with a decent thoughtful response.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement belies the sentiment your entire post and prevents you from accepting other viewpoints. I'm not telling you to stop liking recoil or that it's bad; I'm just explaining how it would change NS and why many don't find it desirable. Again you're entitled to your opinion, but please understand that playstyle != nostalgia.
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line is that you will never have the NS1 feel in a brand new engine, it just won't happen. The game mechanics will be different, guaranteed. Again take a look at Day Of Defeat Source. They wanted to keep the same exact feel of DoD original but it just didn't work, new engines can't just work the same way as the old one in terms of fluidity and mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but this doesn't support your arguments. Change for the sake of change is not good; change that adds something to the game is good. This is why I said your first statement belies your post. We're not arguing against change in general, just <i>this</i> change.
<!--quoteo(post=1712665:date=Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM:name=5emtex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex @ Jun 17 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Oh and those games you claim that recoil does not increase teamwork, those are human vs human games where its two sides shooting at eachother. When you have shooting vs aliens the whole recoil increasing marine teamwork is drastically increased because you aren't shooting low health humans anymore, with skulks perhaps but its going to require teamwork to take down a blinking fade with recoil, as well as a rampaging onos provided in NS2 they make the onos less clumsy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS all ready has these attributes. As I said above, Since recoil would allow more dmg output from a marine it would allow them to be more self-sufficient and not increase teamwork.
So yes... guns should overheat and jam and fail and become less accurate at longer ranges (and i stress that long range means long 300 yd range)... but just the same... guns should be deadly in the hands of the skilled and clumsy, but capable, in the hands of the new player. Pistols will be more deadly in close quarters just like in real life where a handgun has more killing power then a m16 in close quarters... just the same the pistol will be inaccurate after like 50 ft to the point where you could miss a skulk that you are aiming dead at. Use a rifle if you want accuracy right.... A SMG would be perfect for some maps... your firing pistol bullets and high speed... thats a real killer in close quarters... etc... and then a shotgun... 1 shot multiple kills... their should be a choice between a slug (kill fade in 1 shot) or buckshot (kill multiple fades in 1 shot)
HMG should not be >>> really better then LMG all the time... it should be a choice of the commander (NO SCRATCH THAT... YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON) and guns should all be free at the very start of the game... lmgs and hmgs should have their own purpose and do it very well... a lmg should kill a fade just as much as a hmg... but different accuracies and ammo loads and recoils. Btw we are calling lmgs by the appropriate name of smg from here on in... so if someone wants a smg or a lmg (the 250 round machine gun from NS1) then the commander should not have to freak but know both have their purpose just like someone requesting a shotgun or grenade launcher in NS1 to do a job (NO SCRATCH THAT... YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON) commander can SUGGEST what weapon is needed where "flamethrowers go here" but only an individual player will know what their good with.
Here's the big thing... perhaps a feature where the player can customize their weapons rate of fire.... so maybe have a hmg that hits more accurately and shoots less rapid so as to conserve ammo ON CERTAIN MAPS... but in other occasions, in close quarters, you want your weapon to blaze through at 90 rounds a second to STAND A CHANCE IN CLOSE QUARTERS (sorry but in NS1 a marine with a hmg stood no chance against a fade if they were in close quarters... we need to address that problem... either remove fades or make guns work)
Oh well, let me sum my views up
- The movement based inaccuracy:
NS is movement based. It's not necessarily better than the more 'static' FPS games, but a matter of preference. Nevertheless, the market is flooded with those semi-realistic shooters with movement inaccuracy and recoil. NS on the other hand stands out by being very dynamic with all the possible movement options while still maintaining a decent firepower.
The lack of movement based recoil also encourages people to move around instead of securing certain spots on the map. I'd say this is a virtue as most other games tend to provoke camping without any real strategical purpose on public servers.
-The 'upwards kick' recoil:
Well, whatever. I could live with it, but I can't see that much point in it in a game like NS. Most of the fights are in close quarters anyway, so the effect on accuracy wouldn't be too big. On the other hand it might cause inexperienced players some more rough learning curve before they could get even skulk kills regularly. All in all I can't see that much gain for the extra complexity it adds.
-The inaccuracy on longer bursts:
Once again, the close quarters negate most of the effects. On longer range pistol is quite powerful, but then again on even skill play it adds some features to the game and doesn't cause that many issues. Nevertheless as locallyunscene mentioned, the inaccuracy would most likely turn the game a bit more into twitch based game as the lost accuracy would most likely be replaced by extra damage. Once again, I can't see any real gain and on the other hand it adds an unnecessary random factor. Also note that the inability to damage fleeing aliens effectively doesn't really promote aliens committing to frags as it's just a lot easier to chicken out.
---
Most of all NS has got huge strenghts in it's gameplay that encourages people to move and react to situations instead of fighting the positional fights. It's like the creativity and dynamics of deathmatch combined with the strategy of tactical shooters mixed up in a good way.
I think <b>locallyunscene</b> addressed the nostalgia and teamwork questions quite nicely. The change isn't good just for the sake of change (especially while we are talking about the very core of NS' awesome and unique fight mechanics). The teamwork elements are there already, I fail to see how recoil contributes there.
... And long post doesn't equal good arguments. I really envy some (mostly native english speakers) for their ability to keep their posts compact and yet very informative and convinsing.
Wolf, sorry but no, this isn't CoD 4, like I said in the bullet specialization thread, you are trying to turn this into counter-strike or CoD4 and your suggestions are so ridiculus I don't even know if I should take you seriously or if you are trolling.
The thing is, I think the weapon recoil should be roughly similar to NS1 where the HMG had a random spray pattern if you were shooting the same spot, it still spread a bit and I think to solve the problem you mentioned of not being able to damage fleeing aliens which would make them more hit and run. What about my idea of the ironsights slowing fire rate a bit while offsetting the slower fire speed for increased accuracy or damage. That way the guns would fire similiarly to NS1, you wouldnt HAVE to use ironsights but if you saw a fleeing alien you knew was low on life you could bring up the ironsights and perhaps take a couple of accurate shots as the coup de grace.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->its 100% unrealistic and retarded to fire a rifle from the hip<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider first, that these are close quarters. Then go read the wikipedia article on Point Shooting, which I linked earlier.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But my problem with that logic is that this is Natural Selection "2" not NS, if this is just going to turn out to be NS in a new engine it should just be called NS Source just like CS ported to source is called CS Source and Day of Defeat ported to the source engine is called Day of Defeat Source. If its truely going to be version 2 of NS then it should be different but with the same core concepts so enough with the nostalgia already, NS is still available to play so if you want the old tried and true NS go back and play that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with that argument is that NS2 won't be on the Source engine...
No, but seriously. There's enough that's been changed as it is (alien commander, MULTIPLE commanders, power grid, two resources, marines buying their own weapons, MOBILE siege cannons, dynamic infestation, re-models of everything, new maps, and much more). There's the "2" you're looking for.
You complain that we don't acknowledge that it's a sequel, but you yourself are losing the plot. You're focusing only on the "2", and completely forgetting about the "Natural Selection". You dont' understand that it's not an entirely new and different game, nor should it be. If it were, then don't even call it 'Natural Selection' 2; it wouldn't be right.
The fact of the matter is, iron sights and recoil would not be Natural Selection. But I'm sure they could very well be a "2", like uh, <b>Counter Strike 2</b>, perhaps.
<!--QuoteBegin-5emtex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (5emtex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the 100% accurate no recoil sniper rifle pistol was retarded in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. Regarding this... Would be nice to make the pistol more of a cannon (long-ass barrel) in that respect.
Look at Alucard's pistols (from the Anime/Manga series Hellsing) for an example.
Or perhaps have a look at bullpup pistols... like the Seburo C-X for example (also fictional).
<img src="http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/images/Seburo_C-X.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1712591:date=Jun 17 2009, 09:01 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 17 2009, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>so what i'm saying is the devs should intentionally slow down combat in ns2</b> for many reasons... first knowone has a computer to play fast paced action of ns1 in a ns2 engine... second... extreme lag from even attempting such fast paced action in ns2... third...it's more fun to have bullets that can kill... that was the most frustrating aspect of ns1... marines had no chance at all until their was 20 of them with hmgs... and even then... just maybe they would win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with everything you say here. But I will pick on one particular point.
For me, Natural Selection's <b>biggest hook</b> was the fast-paced omni-directional action. Take that away and it's no longer Natural Selection.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So i suggest the devs ignore ns1 for the most part...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because NS1 was <b>so</b> unsuccessful, right? Because the fact that it's called "<b>Natural Selection</b> 2" means it has <b>nothing</b> to do with Natural Selection, right?
You and 5emtex seriously need to step back for a minute and consider what you're suggesting.
In response to your criticism of the iron sights zooming in, first of all you have no idea if that aspect would be implemented with the iron sights were that change added to the game. There are many games that incorporate iron sights but don't zoom in when you do so (ex. Americas Army 3). The basic concept behind that zoom in is that when firing from the hip there is no zoom to add to the inaccuracy of shooting from the hip, whereas when you bring it up to your shoulder the makers of the game want to give the player an accuracy bonus by letting you see targets a little better than if you were firing from the hip. I'm not argueing whether its realistic or not, I'm just pointing out the logic behind it for you. It has nothing to do with the iron sights being a scope, it's just a reward in accuracy for using the weapon as intended.
With that being said, the other arguements the other poster made that you didn't agree with I also don't agree with so please don't say that both him and I want the same things, it's fairly insulting. I never said I wanted to slow the game down, on the contrary I think the fast paced nature of NS like you said is what makes the game so awesome. My suggestions were just minor gripes like a little bit of accuracy improvement if the player decides to use optional iron sights etc etc. Slowing the game down because the poster thinks that no one has a computer capable of running the game at full speed is a crappy arguement at best.
Accuracy is crucial in real warfare because each fired bullet has lethal power. This is not the case in NS. Maps are too cramped for the need to zoom in. I'm sure that real trained soldiers WOULD use scopes, but this is a game. Adding in ironsights means balancing for them, which in turn means that they need to be used.
What I don't understand is how you figure out that ironsights don't imply game-slowing. Taking a gun to your shoulder takes time, the ability for increased accuracy means that marines will try to move way slower to profit from said accuracy.
It isn't though.
I don't think NS needs another layer of difficulty and complexity
<!--quoteo(post=1712775:date=Jun 18 2009, 01:51 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 18 2009, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, that's what I never understood about Iron Sights in games. How the hell is it possible that you actually -zoom in- when you bring the gun up to your eye? It's not a bloody scope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that slight zoom in is meant to represent the fact that you would be focusing your vision down the sights of your gun while losing peripheral focus. I think it works well given the limitations that any computer will have to bring immersion.
<!--quoteo(post=1713194:date=Jun 20 2009, 06:37 PM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frostymoose @ Jun 20 2009, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This might be cool if NS was a coop game playing as marines vs A.I. aliens...
It isn't though.
I don't think NS needs another layer of difficulty and complexity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a good point on the coop thing. Disagree on the complexity.
Moving on... I actually disagree with a lot of the predictions of what a change like this would do to NS. Mainly the "newbies won't be able to hit anything" one. I think when a newbie freaks out at the sight of a fast moving alien approaching him while jumping around the room. Two things would happen.
1) They'll have trouble keeping the crosshair exactly on the alien.
2) They'll keep mouse1 pressed until either they empty their clip or the alien dies/retreats.
Having the accuracy worsen at sustained fire would actually HELP the newbie get more bullets into the alien. Allowing him greater chances than 0.1% against a very skilled alien player.
Also fundamentally NS should be about part of the team defending and part attacking. Generally newer players tend to play defensively. It NOT about two teams "dynamically" running around a circle (read map) until one side manages to catch the others tail.
I find NS to be very balanced. So its not like I'm asking for balancing. I think if done right the accuracy effect would give better chances to new players to make a difference in combat and would slightly reduce the power of the griefing-god players. While still allowing for growth and improvement. While not messing with the general balance of the game.
Ultimately what I think NS2 should really focus on is on being instantly fun for newer players (willing to play as a team) so that they stick around long enough to learn the ins and out of the RTS side of the game. Also still rewarding for veterans. We all love NS1 mostly because its a rewarding game where the more you play the better you get at it. However the "hazing" you have to go through probably has made us lose a significant amount of potential install base.
I'm not fully satisfied with this post but I gtg now. Hope it makes enough sense.
PS: Thanks for the prop on me making good point and stuff. This is like the only forum where I am "active". Partly because I love playing NS and because the NS community is one of the few in which there are a fair amount of people able to discuss topics in a civil manner. Those two reasons are probably more closely related than I realize.
But my point was, it's unrealistic to 'zoom in' when you bring your eye up to the sights, when a big (probably the main) part of the iron sights idea is to make the game more realistic.
Well no. If anything that just means your peripheral vision should become blurrier.
Aim decreasing (ie your crosshair and bullet spread becoming larger) with movement and maintained fire could be a worthwhile implementation, it would promote marines to take up defensive positions and burst fire rather than hopping and running round the room spraying bullets constantly. Actual recoil (ie your view moving from firing) may be a bit to much, maybe with HMGs but even then I'm dubious.
And no gun-jams please, if you need an explanation nanites constantly clean the working parts.
..isn't directly related to your barrel traveling up, which you obviously meant.
Decreasing accuracy during sustained fire simulates the increasing pain one feels when shooting without a break cause to tired muscles or something like that.
Decreasing accuracy during sustained fire simulates the increasing pain one feels when shooting without a break cause to tired muscles or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes most games throw your view all over the place as 'recoil', that's what I was trying to get across.
*edit*
And to clarify, this is not what I want. I want the view to remain still.
True, doesn't work with twitchy games as FPSes, but still.
I also think that we can't compare NS 2 with NS 1 yet... since we haven't played both of them :)
Recoil could go well but iron sights may be bit ugh. alien right in front of you- got a decent sense of judgment anyone can hip fire it- generally aliens aren't long range as it is so doesn't matter the most.
recoil on the other hand may be decent, as said earlier, newbies may spray and may miss alot, sometimes the spray may tag the aliens giving them a chance of hitting.