Empires
BlackHawk
Join Date: 2008-06-17 Member: 64467Members
Join Date: 2008-06-17 Member: 64467Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">agument I have with my friends</div>
I would just like some opinions( they don't have to be in my favor) since im not sold on either ideas really.
BlackHawk: how does the idea of a United States Imperial fleet strike you?
Malic: Imperial would imply an Empire :V
BlackHawk: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQ00rtmX5k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQ00rtmX5k</a>
BlackHawk: I like the idea of a American empire
BlackHawk: beast the way this democracy is going
Malic: I don't, because it would probably be socialist.
Malic: And yes you can have a socialist empire
BlackHawk: how?
Malic: Think germany during WW2 except without a war and no jew killing.
BlackHawk: Socialist State: A popular but often impractical system in which the state owns and controls most activities for the equal good of all people. Many Utopia Sphere worlds are of this sort. Without the leadership of benign AI, this sort of regime frequently deteriorates into totalitarianism is overthrown by a different system
Malic: And Empirical rule is just one group rules them all.
Malic: Under the set up right now that would be the democrats.
Malic: Ie, an empire right now would be socialist in nature
BlackHawk: true but if you look at history a empire with one man as a leader has always dominated thier foes, its only the a weak emperor that has allowed the empire to be destroyed, look at any empire.
Malic: Yeah, it's an old system that dies after a couple hundred years.
BlackHawk: because religion died
Malic: No, because you can't base rule on paterns.
Malic: Disregard that last statement.
BlackHawk: ok.....
Malic: I'll just go by, it's been proven to not work. It's archaic and thinking otherwise justifies those pathetic 50 somethings in congress that think communism could work.
Malic: Communism doesn't work, Socialism doesn't work, any form of government where one group is always in control doesn't work, and Democratic Republics don't work.
Malic: The thing is, Democratic Republics are the best thing we've got so far.
BlackHawk: What kills governemts is corruption, every empire lasted as long as thier ppl where united,i.e. against a treat that would enslave or outright kill you. when you lose threats,you empire gets internal trife. another thing is you can't compare modern governemnts to old ones, for the simpe reason that surivial is not a issue. Back in the day they were honest about killing one another, today its all political and money.So ineffect if you had a very real threat thatwas bent on your demise, you could have a empire. Otherwise I agree this is the best we have
BlackHawk: also diverity creates internal trife and meakes unity impossible for a single country, (Yugoslovia, Austria, Russia, china,USA,any south american country)
Malic: Except that there are no threats. The Koreans will continue to embezil money from the world, Iran will get the ###### nuked out of it by Isreal before they get anything done, and Russia will remain dead in the water until they convert to Capitalism more fully.
Malic: And the lack of threat is what made our political party so weak and flabby.
Malic: Which allowed for liberals to start gaining power.
BlackHawk: look at isreal then, they face a real threat and as a result are a very united ppl
Malic: Except that you would have to go through two years of military training as a kid and you don't really get to have much fun.
Malic: Very united but not really free or happy.
BlackHawk: its around 18-21 so you still get to be a kid, and hate to tell you it, but they content, even ppl in china or a more socialist country like france are content, as long as they have luxaries they will be fine and support thier country, or just be neatrul
BlackHawk: but they ARE* content
Malic: Because they've never tasted the freedom people like us have for any extended amount of time
Malic: Or did, as things are going <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
BlackHawk: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> as true as that may, let me ask you something, as long as you have free unrestriceted access to internet, would you ever truly try to do anything to rock the (assume america is at the moment) stability of your country, inorder to change what you think is needed?
Malic: Yes, if we continue on this path to socialism I will start doing all that I can to reverse it.
BlackHawk: socilism inself would restrict your access to the internet, I.E no free ideas
Malic: Most likely.
BlackHawk: so then you didin't answer my quetion
BlackHawk: question*
Malic: would you ever truly try to do anything to rock the
Malic: I wouldn't be some punk rebel ######, I'd be an actual rebel.
Malic: Maybe not so much so in the fighting aspect but I sure as hell would help get things organized so our (or at least my) side would win.
BlackHawk: but as long as your internet and comforts around you are fine (you can get any non-political job without government involvment, a capitialist market exist, internet is fine) you we be upset but not do anything to "rock the boat" if you would?
Malic: "you can get any non-political job without government involvment, a capitialist market exist, internet is fine" that implies pretty much everything is working out right.
BlackHawk: look at empires past,(exeption of hitler, which is not really a empire, but more like a dictatorship) they all had this, Rome,france(pre industraial revolution),the unified German states(pre WWI), etc. They all these markets, but corruption and lack of any real threats destroyed them. Now I do not believe in a utiopia in a , I believe I'ts impossible short of mind-control.
BlackHawk: Now I do not believe in a utiopia in any way,*
Malic: Except the money would still belong to the government :V
BlackHawk: dosen' today?
Malic: Unless you're saying an empire but with capitalism, and no only 40% does and 80% of that belongs to china.
Malic: An empire with capitalism would be nice but all it would take is ONE currupt leader to take the reigns and stear it towards tolatarianism (sp :c)
BlackHawk: Ah now your getting my point, take and good leader who is not corrupt and you have something, but your right, the trick is keeping that chain going, here is where loyalty to the empire and god come in. As you know as long as you have ppl who are loyal to the empire( not the emperor) and god(because the promise of salvation after death, and a satifaction of doing a good thing in life) along with a real threat(think of choas and orks in warhammer,yes it's relevent but extreme) you could create a powerful unified state. As long as ppl feel as though they are doing good for in thier life and good in the eyes of god, you can have this. You could have a free market and free ideas, just dont let corruption take hold in any way and don't take god out of school.(balance moral's with personal wealth)
BlackHawk: that is how rome stayed together for so long, and how america was so powerful and unified intell Darwin
Malic: Except that Rome was a republic :V
Malic: In fact it only fell in glory when it started having Ceasers
Malic: The voted Senate decided stuff
Malic: Plus you would have to kill or brainwash anyone who didn't believe in god or the state.
Malic: How is that free in any way?
BlackHawk: 1. was a though of as a empire even during the days of the republic,(they did have a emperor of sorts, he just didin't go by that title)
BlackHawk: 2.after Ceasers rome was still powerful, some emperors were great leaders(ceasers direct line) and others led the empire to ruin(Nero)
BlackHawk: 3.the senate believed from the bottom of thier heart that rome was more important then themselves,
Malic: Ironically with the nero point you hurt your own arguement
BlackHawk: I believe I pointed out corruption as the killer of governements in my defence
BlackHawk: nero was corrupted to the point of extremes
Malic: Except your point for it was to kill everyone who disents and blind the leaders mentally.
Malic: Which wouldnt' work because of the internet
Malic: brb
BlackHawk: talking to doug?
BlackHawk: you would not need to kill anyone at all, because it only a small few of the ones who truly hated the empire would ever lead a uprising, as long as you have luxaries(internet is included) no one would ever truly oppose the stablity of the empire, unless they became the thing they stood against and became corrupted. As for Nero I said "take and good leader who is not corrupt and you have something, but your right, the trick is keeping that chain going" and where my loyatly to God and the Empire, not the emperor comes in.
BlackHawk: look at obama, ppl hate him, but unless he takes away luxaries and things that make you smile I doubt anyone would truly do anything to oppose him.
Malic is now Away.
Malic is now Online.
Malic: "as long as you have luxaries(internet is included) no one would ever truly oppose the stablity of the empire" Except I would.
BlackHawk: would you truly do something real about it
BlackHawk: not just posting hate fourms?
Your chat with Malic is now a multi-user chat.
Malic has been invited to chat.
Osyr has been invited to chat.
BlackHawk: doug whats to see it
Osyr entered chat.
Malic: I would assist in usurping it
Malic: That is if it lasted long enough to actually change anything
Osyr: is this the gov type debate
BlackHawk: but it would take a leader to do anything, and the leader is the only one that would be needed to take care of.
BlackHawk: if at all
Osyr: everyones good with goin to trevors house
BlackHawk: letting ppl rebel just might prove to the majority that the empire is willing to have ideas
BlackHawk: and maybe
BlackHawk: when?
Malic: Except you wouldn't be able to take out the leader without some kind of brutish force of secret police or assassins
Malic: With the internet that would be known and cause others to rise up
BlackHawk: public discredit works just fine
Malic: What you are suggesting is worse than anything Obama wants. You should be ashamed of yourself <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Osyr: in soviet russia net inters you
Malic: Of course I myself have illusions of becoming a ruler of some kind.
Osyr: Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
George Washington
BlackHawk: look at society today, we get everthing we know from the media, how many of us acually talked to someone in Irag right now? I have and he said the terriost thing is compleley overblown, same thing with global warming, this stuff is found with a simple google search yet ppl ignore it
BlackHawk: you don't have to block anything, just encourage a idea true or not
Malic: Yes, but these things aren't to a level that you're suggesting.
Malic: It's like comparing a firecracker to a ###### atomic bomb, it does work on a massive scale
BlackHawk: if thay can shape someones opioions then yes, it is too that level
Osyr: If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington
BlackHawk: look at text books
BlackHawk: simple google searches discredit them, yet they are the one "true" source of information you can get
Osyr: next part-war is it nessasry?
Malic: Except that they don't have a foothold of power like you're suggesting. They haven't done anything except midly disgruntle people
Osyr: If we desire to avoid insult, we must be able to repel it; if we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known, that we are at all times ready for War.
George Washington
Osyr: are you there still?
BlackHawk: again doug points out, that if real threats exist, not just a political war, like iraq or even the so called "nuclear war" threat. a empire will rise from the ashes of fear and destruction and secure it's people for how ever long it can last
Malic: Only if a prodegenic leader is there to found it.
Malic: And even then you're always dealing with idealogues
Osyr: i quoted washington-he belived in a republic
BlackHawk: and democracy can not be included because american has not been around for more then 300 years, that less then the most good empires,so how can you say this is best? Im sure a roman would say we are a weak ppl, just as we say to him
BlackHawk: washingtion was also a mason
BlackHawk: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Osyr: dont bring masons into it-we dont need tinfoil
BlackHawk: lol I blame my dad
Malic: BUT THE ROMANS WERE A REPUBLIC, they were at there best then. When the ceasar's took over it was only a good thing in terms of expansion, EVERYTHING ELSE SUFFERED.
Malic: FUUUUU
Osyr: chase is winning
BlackHawk: why do you think ceasar was the end of the empire? it lasted for another 1000 years, although split in half, ceasars line did a very good job with what they had, and ceasars dead was the cause for the misforune of rome, the ppl loved him, the senate lost thier power that is why acted, not for thier belief in rome.
BlackHawk: ceaser's dead*
BlackHawk: death*
BlackHawk: and doug when is this trever thing anyway?
Osyr: tomorrow try to come to trevors house
BlackHawk: when?
Osyr: noon
BlackHawk: can't I have driver's ed intell around 11:30
Osyr: 1
BlackHawk: would chase be in the car whith us? because I have no idea where trever's house is
Malic: Your idea is flawed in so many ways. 1) You're implying everyone would start with a clean slate and be for the empire. 2)You're implying that they would all worship the same god and fear the same enemy 3) You fail to realize that something like this can never be built again. 4) You are impartial to the idea that a tyranical ruler could take over "Because he would believe in what they believed in" which doesn't make sense without some form of brainwashing 5) You're relying on every single person in the empire to be unquestionably loyal to your or whoever leads cause, this will never happen because Human nature cannot be contained in such a way in such a massive scale, the closest theoretical situation I can think of would be 1984.
Osyr: 923 high meadow ranch drive
Malic: The senate were forced from power and Rome still went downhill on everything once a leader took the reigns from the people.
Malic: And that was with pre-mideval tech.
Malic: It sure as hell wouldn't work now.
Osyr: all people work to their own ends to their own benifit, yet the overall consequences benifit the society. if left to their own devices in a "fair" competitve arena they will do great things. a goverments sole and only duty is to provide this competitive commecial arena and to protect it.
Malic: Thank you
Osyr: Goverment can only do 3 things well: Police, Military, and Postage. A perfect government would be one that has uninfringeable power in those 3 areas and absolutly no power in anything else.
Osyr: are you 2 still there
Malic: I am
Osyr: remember 1:00 at revors tommorow
Malic: I can't get a ride till like 8:00
Osyr: P:M?
Malic: And it would be easier if I went to your house first
Malic: And yeah
Osyr: y so late
Malic: Maybe 7:00
Osyr: y
Malic: Dad gets off work
Malic: Mom doesn't want to drive anywhere
Osyr: walk <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
BlackHawk: 1).a empire would have to be born from the ashes of destruction, how else could one exist? they would not need to have a clean slate only the emperor and the burocracy would need to be truly loyal to the empire.2)both have happened in the past and to this day.look at (isreal or any islamic state)so its not outside the realm of possibilty, if they are from the same culture you have your unity, and a real threat is worth fearing( a honest threat not a political one, islam is honest about Jewish death, they truly fear and hate oneanothor.3)nothing is ever built twice.4) I believe I clearly stated that this is where the delema of a emprie rest in the first, and there views could very as much as they please short of the corrupion which is the issue today.5)no I don't rely on every single person to loyal, obviouly there are going to be ppl who disagree, such is human nature, but if you have one culture then you have a larger change of it being unifited loosly atleast.
BlackHawk: and walk?
Malic: Nah
BlackHawk: how far does trevor live from chases?
BlackHawk: and maybe around 6:00ish pm?
Osyr: he live right down the road from me, so 15 miutes away
Osyr: Still late
Osyr: could you pick chase up
BlackHawk: if he could navigate where trevor lives maybe
Osyr: internet maps
BlackHawk: thats no good, I need a acual guide
Malic: 1) There's never gonna be an event like that, stop romantisizing the end of the world 2) Isreal and Islam isn't close to what you're suggesting. 3) Doesn't even respond to my point 4) Empire's are to easy to currupt, your ideal is easily taken over. 5) You'll never have a group that large in America or anywhere these days.
Malic: Pick me up and we could call him for directions
BlackHawk: "3) You fail to realize that something like this can never be built again." I really did get what you were saying myself so I just went with what I though you ment"
BlackHawk: 1) it dosen't have to be world ending, I don't even believe that is possible, I simply ment should america meet a real threat is bend on killing us and winnin
BlackHawk: 2)they won't have peace if that's what your suggesting
Malic: 1) That would result in the end of world for the most part, nuclear warfare is lame that way.
BlackHawk: nuclear warfare will never happen
Osyr: I am the emporer of mankind, and i have created a perfect form of man. they are the space marines and they shall have no fear -Kyle
Malic: Then America will never fall in such a way that you expect.
Malic: Maybe fragment
BlackHawk: fragments never truly become whole again
Malic: Yeah, how does that promote your point?
BlackHawk: they divide into thier own cultures, look at yutoslavia
BlackHawk: something to work with for aspiring goverment builder
BlackHawk: I am the emporer of mankind, and i have created a perfect form of man. they are the space marines and they shall have no fear -Kyle
BlackHawk: I don't think i could fit taht role because I don't believe in perfection
Malic: But that doesn't back up your point of wether or not your idealogy is practical and can be made.
BlackHawk: " Pick me up and we could call him for directions" k
Malic: Tomorrow at 1:00?
BlackHawk: wait, would it be to stay the night?
Malic: I don't know
Osyr: yes
Malic: Alright then
Malic: I'll go ask my mom
BlackHawk: could we reschedule tell next weak, because I have driver's ed tell Friday and a interview sometime this week
BlackHawk: wait malic don't ask yet!!
Malic: Actually that would work beter for me to
Osyr: 2:00?
BlackHawk: of next week?
Malic: Since my Mom and sister will be gone after Wednesday
Osyr: tommorow
Malic: I still think we should change it to either Thursday or nex week
Osyr: y
BlackHawk: "But that doesn't back up your point of wether or not your idealogy is practical and can be made." you forget human nature, we lean toward security and luxaries, so in affect yes its poosible, but not in our furture, but give a few decades and then we'll look at the current political map
BlackHawk: because Im busying all this week
BlackHawk: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFKGrmsBDk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFKGrmsBDk</a>
BlackHawk: others believe in a unitfied single culture state, not just me
Osyr: sunday?
BlackHawk: of this weekend?
Malic: "you forget human nature, we lean toward security and luxaries, so in affect yes its poosible, but not in our furture, but give a few decades and then we'll look at the current political map" Except that even then your idealogy won't work
BlackHawk: does any idealogy work as it's creator intends?
BlackHawk: there will be changes to fit the need, but I believe it is possible
Malic: No, but your's falling would end up a lot worse than just about any other kind. Including Communism.
Malic: brb
Osyr: an attempt to be a saingle culture will always crumble-we have states so that there wont be the friction. each is different so that thee willl always be a state to satisfy.
Osyr: this weekend
BlackHawk: everthing crumblies and starts anew, single cultures just last longer
Osyr: no they crumble faster
BlackHawk: explain
Osyr: there will always be different groups in a culture, if forced to go in any way but their own there is friction, seperate states fix this since they will all be different to fit the different groups
just opinions please.
I would just like some opinions( they don't have to be in my favor) since im not sold on either ideas really.
BlackHawk: how does the idea of a United States Imperial fleet strike you?
Malic: Imperial would imply an Empire :V
BlackHawk: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQ00rtmX5k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQ00rtmX5k</a>
BlackHawk: I like the idea of a American empire
BlackHawk: beast the way this democracy is going
Malic: I don't, because it would probably be socialist.
Malic: And yes you can have a socialist empire
BlackHawk: how?
Malic: Think germany during WW2 except without a war and no jew killing.
BlackHawk: Socialist State: A popular but often impractical system in which the state owns and controls most activities for the equal good of all people. Many Utopia Sphere worlds are of this sort. Without the leadership of benign AI, this sort of regime frequently deteriorates into totalitarianism is overthrown by a different system
Malic: And Empirical rule is just one group rules them all.
Malic: Under the set up right now that would be the democrats.
Malic: Ie, an empire right now would be socialist in nature
BlackHawk: true but if you look at history a empire with one man as a leader has always dominated thier foes, its only the a weak emperor that has allowed the empire to be destroyed, look at any empire.
Malic: Yeah, it's an old system that dies after a couple hundred years.
BlackHawk: because religion died
Malic: No, because you can't base rule on paterns.
Malic: Disregard that last statement.
BlackHawk: ok.....
Malic: I'll just go by, it's been proven to not work. It's archaic and thinking otherwise justifies those pathetic 50 somethings in congress that think communism could work.
Malic: Communism doesn't work, Socialism doesn't work, any form of government where one group is always in control doesn't work, and Democratic Republics don't work.
Malic: The thing is, Democratic Republics are the best thing we've got so far.
BlackHawk: What kills governemts is corruption, every empire lasted as long as thier ppl where united,i.e. against a treat that would enslave or outright kill you. when you lose threats,you empire gets internal trife. another thing is you can't compare modern governemnts to old ones, for the simpe reason that surivial is not a issue. Back in the day they were honest about killing one another, today its all political and money.So ineffect if you had a very real threat thatwas bent on your demise, you could have a empire. Otherwise I agree this is the best we have
BlackHawk: also diverity creates internal trife and meakes unity impossible for a single country, (Yugoslovia, Austria, Russia, china,USA,any south american country)
Malic: Except that there are no threats. The Koreans will continue to embezil money from the world, Iran will get the ###### nuked out of it by Isreal before they get anything done, and Russia will remain dead in the water until they convert to Capitalism more fully.
Malic: And the lack of threat is what made our political party so weak and flabby.
Malic: Which allowed for liberals to start gaining power.
BlackHawk: look at isreal then, they face a real threat and as a result are a very united ppl
Malic: Except that you would have to go through two years of military training as a kid and you don't really get to have much fun.
Malic: Very united but not really free or happy.
BlackHawk: its around 18-21 so you still get to be a kid, and hate to tell you it, but they content, even ppl in china or a more socialist country like france are content, as long as they have luxaries they will be fine and support thier country, or just be neatrul
BlackHawk: but they ARE* content
Malic: Because they've never tasted the freedom people like us have for any extended amount of time
Malic: Or did, as things are going <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
BlackHawk: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> as true as that may, let me ask you something, as long as you have free unrestriceted access to internet, would you ever truly try to do anything to rock the (assume america is at the moment) stability of your country, inorder to change what you think is needed?
Malic: Yes, if we continue on this path to socialism I will start doing all that I can to reverse it.
BlackHawk: socilism inself would restrict your access to the internet, I.E no free ideas
Malic: Most likely.
BlackHawk: so then you didin't answer my quetion
BlackHawk: question*
Malic: would you ever truly try to do anything to rock the
Malic: I wouldn't be some punk rebel ######, I'd be an actual rebel.
Malic: Maybe not so much so in the fighting aspect but I sure as hell would help get things organized so our (or at least my) side would win.
BlackHawk: but as long as your internet and comforts around you are fine (you can get any non-political job without government involvment, a capitialist market exist, internet is fine) you we be upset but not do anything to "rock the boat" if you would?
Malic: "you can get any non-political job without government involvment, a capitialist market exist, internet is fine" that implies pretty much everything is working out right.
BlackHawk: look at empires past,(exeption of hitler, which is not really a empire, but more like a dictatorship) they all had this, Rome,france(pre industraial revolution),the unified German states(pre WWI), etc. They all these markets, but corruption and lack of any real threats destroyed them. Now I do not believe in a utiopia in a , I believe I'ts impossible short of mind-control.
BlackHawk: Now I do not believe in a utiopia in any way,*
Malic: Except the money would still belong to the government :V
BlackHawk: dosen' today?
Malic: Unless you're saying an empire but with capitalism, and no only 40% does and 80% of that belongs to china.
Malic: An empire with capitalism would be nice but all it would take is ONE currupt leader to take the reigns and stear it towards tolatarianism (sp :c)
BlackHawk: Ah now your getting my point, take and good leader who is not corrupt and you have something, but your right, the trick is keeping that chain going, here is where loyalty to the empire and god come in. As you know as long as you have ppl who are loyal to the empire( not the emperor) and god(because the promise of salvation after death, and a satifaction of doing a good thing in life) along with a real threat(think of choas and orks in warhammer,yes it's relevent but extreme) you could create a powerful unified state. As long as ppl feel as though they are doing good for in thier life and good in the eyes of god, you can have this. You could have a free market and free ideas, just dont let corruption take hold in any way and don't take god out of school.(balance moral's with personal wealth)
BlackHawk: that is how rome stayed together for so long, and how america was so powerful and unified intell Darwin
Malic: Except that Rome was a republic :V
Malic: In fact it only fell in glory when it started having Ceasers
Malic: The voted Senate decided stuff
Malic: Plus you would have to kill or brainwash anyone who didn't believe in god or the state.
Malic: How is that free in any way?
BlackHawk: 1. was a though of as a empire even during the days of the republic,(they did have a emperor of sorts, he just didin't go by that title)
BlackHawk: 2.after Ceasers rome was still powerful, some emperors were great leaders(ceasers direct line) and others led the empire to ruin(Nero)
BlackHawk: 3.the senate believed from the bottom of thier heart that rome was more important then themselves,
Malic: Ironically with the nero point you hurt your own arguement
BlackHawk: I believe I pointed out corruption as the killer of governements in my defence
BlackHawk: nero was corrupted to the point of extremes
Malic: Except your point for it was to kill everyone who disents and blind the leaders mentally.
Malic: Which wouldnt' work because of the internet
Malic: brb
BlackHawk: talking to doug?
BlackHawk: you would not need to kill anyone at all, because it only a small few of the ones who truly hated the empire would ever lead a uprising, as long as you have luxaries(internet is included) no one would ever truly oppose the stablity of the empire, unless they became the thing they stood against and became corrupted. As for Nero I said "take and good leader who is not corrupt and you have something, but your right, the trick is keeping that chain going" and where my loyatly to God and the Empire, not the emperor comes in.
BlackHawk: look at obama, ppl hate him, but unless he takes away luxaries and things that make you smile I doubt anyone would truly do anything to oppose him.
Malic is now Away.
Malic is now Online.
Malic: "as long as you have luxaries(internet is included) no one would ever truly oppose the stablity of the empire" Except I would.
BlackHawk: would you truly do something real about it
BlackHawk: not just posting hate fourms?
Your chat with Malic is now a multi-user chat.
Malic has been invited to chat.
Osyr has been invited to chat.
BlackHawk: doug whats to see it
Osyr entered chat.
Malic: I would assist in usurping it
Malic: That is if it lasted long enough to actually change anything
Osyr: is this the gov type debate
BlackHawk: but it would take a leader to do anything, and the leader is the only one that would be needed to take care of.
BlackHawk: if at all
Osyr: everyones good with goin to trevors house
BlackHawk: letting ppl rebel just might prove to the majority that the empire is willing to have ideas
BlackHawk: and maybe
BlackHawk: when?
Malic: Except you wouldn't be able to take out the leader without some kind of brutish force of secret police or assassins
Malic: With the internet that would be known and cause others to rise up
BlackHawk: public discredit works just fine
Malic: What you are suggesting is worse than anything Obama wants. You should be ashamed of yourself <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Osyr: in soviet russia net inters you
Malic: Of course I myself have illusions of becoming a ruler of some kind.
Osyr: Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.
George Washington
BlackHawk: look at society today, we get everthing we know from the media, how many of us acually talked to someone in Irag right now? I have and he said the terriost thing is compleley overblown, same thing with global warming, this stuff is found with a simple google search yet ppl ignore it
BlackHawk: you don't have to block anything, just encourage a idea true or not
Malic: Yes, but these things aren't to a level that you're suggesting.
Malic: It's like comparing a firecracker to a ###### atomic bomb, it does work on a massive scale
BlackHawk: if thay can shape someones opioions then yes, it is too that level
Osyr: If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington
BlackHawk: look at text books
BlackHawk: simple google searches discredit them, yet they are the one "true" source of information you can get
Osyr: next part-war is it nessasry?
Malic: Except that they don't have a foothold of power like you're suggesting. They haven't done anything except midly disgruntle people
Osyr: If we desire to avoid insult, we must be able to repel it; if we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known, that we are at all times ready for War.
George Washington
Osyr: are you there still?
BlackHawk: again doug points out, that if real threats exist, not just a political war, like iraq or even the so called "nuclear war" threat. a empire will rise from the ashes of fear and destruction and secure it's people for how ever long it can last
Malic: Only if a prodegenic leader is there to found it.
Malic: And even then you're always dealing with idealogues
Osyr: i quoted washington-he belived in a republic
BlackHawk: and democracy can not be included because american has not been around for more then 300 years, that less then the most good empires,so how can you say this is best? Im sure a roman would say we are a weak ppl, just as we say to him
BlackHawk: washingtion was also a mason
BlackHawk: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Osyr: dont bring masons into it-we dont need tinfoil
BlackHawk: lol I blame my dad
Malic: BUT THE ROMANS WERE A REPUBLIC, they were at there best then. When the ceasar's took over it was only a good thing in terms of expansion, EVERYTHING ELSE SUFFERED.
Malic: FUUUUU
Osyr: chase is winning
BlackHawk: why do you think ceasar was the end of the empire? it lasted for another 1000 years, although split in half, ceasars line did a very good job with what they had, and ceasars dead was the cause for the misforune of rome, the ppl loved him, the senate lost thier power that is why acted, not for thier belief in rome.
BlackHawk: ceaser's dead*
BlackHawk: death*
BlackHawk: and doug when is this trever thing anyway?
Osyr: tomorrow try to come to trevors house
BlackHawk: when?
Osyr: noon
BlackHawk: can't I have driver's ed intell around 11:30
Osyr: 1
BlackHawk: would chase be in the car whith us? because I have no idea where trever's house is
Malic: Your idea is flawed in so many ways. 1) You're implying everyone would start with a clean slate and be for the empire. 2)You're implying that they would all worship the same god and fear the same enemy 3) You fail to realize that something like this can never be built again. 4) You are impartial to the idea that a tyranical ruler could take over "Because he would believe in what they believed in" which doesn't make sense without some form of brainwashing 5) You're relying on every single person in the empire to be unquestionably loyal to your or whoever leads cause, this will never happen because Human nature cannot be contained in such a way in such a massive scale, the closest theoretical situation I can think of would be 1984.
Osyr: 923 high meadow ranch drive
Malic: The senate were forced from power and Rome still went downhill on everything once a leader took the reigns from the people.
Malic: And that was with pre-mideval tech.
Malic: It sure as hell wouldn't work now.
Osyr: all people work to their own ends to their own benifit, yet the overall consequences benifit the society. if left to their own devices in a "fair" competitve arena they will do great things. a goverments sole and only duty is to provide this competitive commecial arena and to protect it.
Malic: Thank you
Osyr: Goverment can only do 3 things well: Police, Military, and Postage. A perfect government would be one that has uninfringeable power in those 3 areas and absolutly no power in anything else.
Osyr: are you 2 still there
Malic: I am
Osyr: remember 1:00 at revors tommorow
Malic: I can't get a ride till like 8:00
Osyr: P:M?
Malic: And it would be easier if I went to your house first
Malic: And yeah
Osyr: y so late
Malic: Maybe 7:00
Osyr: y
Malic: Dad gets off work
Malic: Mom doesn't want to drive anywhere
Osyr: walk <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
BlackHawk: 1).a empire would have to be born from the ashes of destruction, how else could one exist? they would not need to have a clean slate only the emperor and the burocracy would need to be truly loyal to the empire.2)both have happened in the past and to this day.look at (isreal or any islamic state)so its not outside the realm of possibilty, if they are from the same culture you have your unity, and a real threat is worth fearing( a honest threat not a political one, islam is honest about Jewish death, they truly fear and hate oneanothor.3)nothing is ever built twice.4) I believe I clearly stated that this is where the delema of a emprie rest in the first, and there views could very as much as they please short of the corrupion which is the issue today.5)no I don't rely on every single person to loyal, obviouly there are going to be ppl who disagree, such is human nature, but if you have one culture then you have a larger change of it being unifited loosly atleast.
BlackHawk: and walk?
Malic: Nah
BlackHawk: how far does trevor live from chases?
BlackHawk: and maybe around 6:00ish pm?
Osyr: he live right down the road from me, so 15 miutes away
Osyr: Still late
Osyr: could you pick chase up
BlackHawk: if he could navigate where trevor lives maybe
Osyr: internet maps
BlackHawk: thats no good, I need a acual guide
Malic: 1) There's never gonna be an event like that, stop romantisizing the end of the world 2) Isreal and Islam isn't close to what you're suggesting. 3) Doesn't even respond to my point 4) Empire's are to easy to currupt, your ideal is easily taken over. 5) You'll never have a group that large in America or anywhere these days.
Malic: Pick me up and we could call him for directions
BlackHawk: "3) You fail to realize that something like this can never be built again." I really did get what you were saying myself so I just went with what I though you ment"
BlackHawk: 1) it dosen't have to be world ending, I don't even believe that is possible, I simply ment should america meet a real threat is bend on killing us and winnin
BlackHawk: 2)they won't have peace if that's what your suggesting
Malic: 1) That would result in the end of world for the most part, nuclear warfare is lame that way.
BlackHawk: nuclear warfare will never happen
Osyr: I am the emporer of mankind, and i have created a perfect form of man. they are the space marines and they shall have no fear -Kyle
Malic: Then America will never fall in such a way that you expect.
Malic: Maybe fragment
BlackHawk: fragments never truly become whole again
Malic: Yeah, how does that promote your point?
BlackHawk: they divide into thier own cultures, look at yutoslavia
BlackHawk: something to work with for aspiring goverment builder
BlackHawk: I am the emporer of mankind, and i have created a perfect form of man. they are the space marines and they shall have no fear -Kyle
BlackHawk: I don't think i could fit taht role because I don't believe in perfection
Malic: But that doesn't back up your point of wether or not your idealogy is practical and can be made.
BlackHawk: " Pick me up and we could call him for directions" k
Malic: Tomorrow at 1:00?
BlackHawk: wait, would it be to stay the night?
Malic: I don't know
Osyr: yes
Malic: Alright then
Malic: I'll go ask my mom
BlackHawk: could we reschedule tell next weak, because I have driver's ed tell Friday and a interview sometime this week
BlackHawk: wait malic don't ask yet!!
Malic: Actually that would work beter for me to
Osyr: 2:00?
BlackHawk: of next week?
Malic: Since my Mom and sister will be gone after Wednesday
Osyr: tommorow
Malic: I still think we should change it to either Thursday or nex week
Osyr: y
BlackHawk: "But that doesn't back up your point of wether or not your idealogy is practical and can be made." you forget human nature, we lean toward security and luxaries, so in affect yes its poosible, but not in our furture, but give a few decades and then we'll look at the current political map
BlackHawk: because Im busying all this week
BlackHawk: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFKGrmsBDk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFKGrmsBDk</a>
BlackHawk: others believe in a unitfied single culture state, not just me
Osyr: sunday?
BlackHawk: of this weekend?
Malic: "you forget human nature, we lean toward security and luxaries, so in affect yes its poosible, but not in our furture, but give a few decades and then we'll look at the current political map" Except that even then your idealogy won't work
BlackHawk: does any idealogy work as it's creator intends?
BlackHawk: there will be changes to fit the need, but I believe it is possible
Malic: No, but your's falling would end up a lot worse than just about any other kind. Including Communism.
Malic: brb
Osyr: an attempt to be a saingle culture will always crumble-we have states so that there wont be the friction. each is different so that thee willl always be a state to satisfy.
Osyr: this weekend
BlackHawk: everthing crumblies and starts anew, single cultures just last longer
Osyr: no they crumble faster
BlackHawk: explain
Osyr: there will always be different groups in a culture, if forced to go in any way but their own there is friction, seperate states fix this since they will all be different to fit the different groups
just opinions please.
Comments
If you want empire... or a so-called "imperial fleet", guess what - you've already got it. Along with all of the associated expansions of domestic government. I laugh when conservatives whine about Obama's spending and socialization/nationalization of the country's industry/healthcare. This is just part and parcel of empire. Bread and circuses. From gladiators to american idol. You know what else goes with empire? Economic collapse, currency destruction... the very word DEBASEMENT of currency is from Roman coinage precious metals replacement with base metals. Reverse alchemy. The system of empire is economically unsustainable.
Blackhawk's point about threats which unite and maintain an empire seems to me to be confusing causes and outcomes. In fact, it's like he's quoting directly from PNAC. In a free society (say for example a functioning democratic republic), threats aren't necessary, nor is "unity". People are simply free to cooperate and live and prosper and create and share. But when the democratic republic starts to fade, and government power starts to meld with certain "interests", power-seeking entities begin to seek even greater control through these methods.
Threats create false moral authority for control. Unity eases the exercise of control. While you may interpret this as necessary for maintaining the stability of an empire, I see it as a manipulative tool used to extract all wealth and utility from the empire before it implodes under its own weight. But what good is empire if it isn't steward over a free society? In fact, I would argue that the two (liberty and empire) are irreconcilable.
I didn't read all of Blackhawk's post so maybe I'm missing some nuances here, but threats aren't necessary so much as ever-present and convenient scape goats. Unity is important for any form of organisation to work while patriotism is usually asking for undeserved blind faith. I agree patriotism is a good indicator of potential for corruption.
I also agree gov't power serving the interests of of a few over the interests of many is a flaw. However no practical form of gov't yet is without this. Even anarchy would suffer from this flaw and lack the stability of a republic.
I doubt humanity will ever be free of this flaw because the people with power, influence, and money simply influence the lives of more people. The "greater good" will often be(or at least seem to be) what an influential person suggests, by virtue of his influential power. I agree a gov't's power wanes when the interests of a few clash with that of many.
As to some of the more general questions: The U.S. is definitely an Imperial Empire. While there may not be actual colonies for the most part, the influence of American ideals, culture, and philosophies is undeniable. Also the attempts of the U.S. to act as a "World Police" can not be ignored either.
Some of it has been good, some of it has been bad, but it is what it is. Overall I think it has the potential to be good, by providing accountability and stability to where there previously was none.
Things change, governments rise, governments fall, water's wet, and grass grows. The US has had some time in the sun. We can debate about whether we're an Empire over here for quite awhile yet, but like locallyunscene said, the US effect on the world is undeniable, and that's what really matters. Our actions over the years of set things into motion and who knows what will happen next? It's kind of exciting, really. And comical, if you think of all those political blowhards who seem to know how to control nature.
Smedley Butler was a Marine hero in the early 20th century, being awarded TWO Medals of Honor for different acts of courage. And he had this to say about the US and our Military:
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
The United States has been the most warring country in the world since our rise as a sovereign nation. I believe the figure is something like 55-60 wars and armed conflicts in the period of ~200 years. If those don't sound like the actions of an Empire, I don't know what else would qualify.
I can see how you would think that, but it's only one side of the coin. The US has done terrible things to many countries and peoples, so did the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire also increased the standard of living and literacy rate for all areas under it's control, and provided that stability known as Pax Romana.
It's easy to say "the U.S. has been in X wars in it's short history", but the fact of the matter is everything is faster, larger, and more deadly now than it was even 100 years ago. Comparing a modern conflict to an ancient one in terms of sheer numbers is comparing apples and oranges.
Now I don't doubt a single word of that service man. I'm just pointing out that while empires and gov't in general are always flawed, the reason they exist at all is the stability they provide. And stability is a worthy goal as it increases real freedoms, not just abstract principals.
Empire typically arises out of enlightenment and the prosperity that peace, liberty, trade, and sharing of ideas always generates. All of that prosperity makes empire possible. Many of those qualities attributed to empire, standard of living, education, etc, may simply be the natural outcome of the enlightenment that precedes it, rather than the empire which also follows the enlightenment. So in this way, maybe we could imagine a scenario where the ideals of a free society are shared with others, rather than spread by force and occupation, and these benefits are not turned toward empire building, nor are a result of the empire and dependent on it.
It is important to consider the possibility that the great Pax Romana may not have required extensive war campaigns that stretched across 3 continents. Or that perhaps the currency destruction that led to the fall of Rome could have been avoided if they turned away from empire, so that the Pax Romana would have lasted not hundreds of years, but thousands...
In the end, I agree with locallyunscene when he says "I doubt humanity will ever be free of this flaw", as the only defense against this cycle of the rise and fall of empires rests with the people to be vigilant against those who seek to undermine free societies.