<!--quoteo(post=1713352:date=Jun 22 2009, 02:12 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 22 2009, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's all well and good if theirs only 1 type of each weapon... but that is ignoring the possibility for a server to run a mod that includes other weapons.
What if a server has a mod that includes a USAS type shotgun <a href="http://www.livevideo.com/video/928D0B5FDCCA4DFB835FA56DF39457A3/usas-12-fully-automatic-12-gau.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.livevideo.com/video/928D0B5FDCC...tic-12-gau.aspx</a>
Now you ask the com for a shottie... 50% chance you wont get what you want, if he gives you a gun at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if youre on a server that has an older version of a map, I mean, if you ask for veil and you really wanted veil from ns1.04, then they better name the new maps ns2_veil_v1.0. And what if the mod adds in a new type of skulk that cant climb on walls but can leap twice as far. The dev team better call the skulk wallwalker_skulk just incase someone adds this new addition. Someone might also make a green model of the skulk, so they better make considerations about colours too.
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!
<!--quoteo(post=1713358:date=Jun 22 2009, 12:51 AM:name=Trojan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 22 2009, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if youre on a server that has an older version of a map, I mean, if you ask for veil and you really wanted veil from ns1.04, then they better name the new maps ns2_veil_v1.0. And what if the mod adds in a new type of skulk that cant climb on walls but can leap twice as far. The dev team better call the skulk wallwalker_skulk just incase someone adds this new addition. Someone might also make a green model of the skulk, so they better make considerations about colours too.
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol it would be sufficient to have established categories for TYPES of weapons... like HMG LMG SMG SHOTGUN PISTOL... and then have model numbers to explicitly identify the guns. This way theirs a way to add custom content to the game making use of the category. But in reality we don't need categories but everyone is hell bent that the words "HMG" and "LMG" appear in ns2 so we gotta include them some way so why not this way. Plus it would be useful if we replicate how halflife does weapons in the hud... like you can have a wrench or crowbar in that column... the one you access by pressing the number keys on the keyboard for the different weapon types...
<!--quoteo(post=1713358:date=Jun 22 2009, 12:51 PM:name=Trojan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 22 2009, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if youre on a server that has an older version of a map, I mean, if you ask for veil and you really wanted veil from ns1.04, then they better name the new maps ns2_veil_v1.0. And what if the mod adds in a new type of skulk that cant climb on walls but can leap twice as far. The dev team better call the skulk wallwalker_skulk just incase someone adds this new addition. Someone might also make a green model of the skulk, so they better make considerations about colours too.
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My sarcasmmeter is totally off the charts. FocusedWolf's doesn't appear to be functioning.
<!--quoteo(post=1713352:date=Jun 21 2009, 10:12 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 21 2009, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's all well and good if theirs only 1 type of each weapon... but that is ignoring the possibility for a server to run a mod that includes other weapons<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You underestimate the communities ability to make up alternative names for things. For example, a Shotgun is also called a Shirtgun or simply a Shotty by many individuals. In your example, if the default Shotgun is indeed still on the server as a droppable weapon, then the players of that server will likely refer to the USAS Shotgun as "the USAS". I think you're really making this harder than it has to be. Also, I really thought the Marines were purchasing their own weapons from an armory in NS2 :\
<!--quoteo(post=1713374:date=Jun 22 2009, 05:40 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 22 2009, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus it would be useful if we replicate how halflife does weapons in the hud... like you can have a wrench or crowbar in that column... the one you access by pressing the number keys on the keyboard for the different weapon types...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never thought that there was a problem with the naming scheme, and the original post even reinforced that they were named properly. Which is humorous as it was supposed to in some way prove the names were inaccurate.
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.
<!--quoteo(post=1713474:date=Jun 22 2009, 03:04 PM:name=Super_Sloth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Super_Sloth @ Jun 22 2009, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never thought that there was a problem with the naming scheme, and the original post even reinforced that they were named properly. Which is humorous as it was supposed to in some way prove the names were inaccurate.
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See posts from 58 on. We are no longer arguing if their lmgs or not but rather should they be called "HMG", "LMG". The reason being it doesn't make sense to name a single particular gun with a name normally associated with an entire class of guns. And this could be a problem should a server be running a script that includes multiple forms of hmgs, lmgs, flamethrowers, etc. So the argument being made is to change their name to a model number at the least. And to maintain order in the UI, to have categories of weapons called "HMG" "LMG" etc. "
If a server is using some sort of mod or w/e that allows multiple weapons of the same class ("LMG" for example) then they can just have any new weapons have a name that's not "LMG." Whatever script lets players choose the weapon will let them understand what class of weapon they're getting.
<!--quoteo(post=1713650:date=Jun 24 2009, 12:39 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 24 2009, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See posts from 58 on. We are no longer arguing if their lmgs or not but rather should they be called "HMG", "LMG". The reason being it doesn't make sense to name a single particular gun with a name normally associated with an entire class of guns. And this could be a problem should a server be running a script that includes multiple forms of hmgs, lmgs, flamethrowers, etc. So the argument being made is to change their name to a model number at the least. And to maintain order in the UI, to have categories of weapons called "HMG" "LMG" etc. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OKAY. Consider it more simply: it's just a nickname. Just as the skulk's name isn't 'skulk' in kharaanese.
<!--quoteo(post=1713650:date=Jun 23 2009, 12:39 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 23 2009, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See posts from 58 on. We are no longer arguing if their lmgs or not but rather should they be called "HMG", "LMG". The reason being it doesn't make sense to name a single particular gun with a name normally associated with an entire class of guns. And this could be a problem should a server be running a script that includes multiple forms of hmgs, lmgs, flamethrowers, etc. So the argument being made is to change their name to a model number at the least. And to maintain order in the UI, to have categories of weapons called "HMG" "LMG" etc. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The weapons shouldn't be renamed just in case someone may or may not create a mod for the game. If they do let the modder rename whatever they want. It wouldn't add much depth to the game anyways to add multiple weapons of the same class.
<!--quoteo(post=1713474:date=Jun 22 2009, 03:04 PM:name=Super_Sloth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Super_Sloth @ Jun 22 2009, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never thought that there was a problem with the naming scheme, and the original post even reinforced that they were named properly. Which is humorous as it was supposed to in some way prove the names were inaccurate.
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Answer to everything. We can end this discussion now.
<!--quoteo(post=1713650:date=Jun 23 2009, 11:39 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 23 2009, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but rather should they be called "HMG", "LMG".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What else would you call them? If your gonna give them funky names you'd have to rename the pistol and mines and shotgun and everything else as well to have a consistent naming scheme.
<!--quoteo(post=1713741:date=Jun 24 2009, 09:27 AM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Jun 24 2009, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What else would you call them? If your gonna give them funky names you'd have to rename the pistol and mines and shotgun and everything else as well to have a consistent naming scheme.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so bad to rename all of them. We can still maintain having "human"-friendly elements in their name until people start to just refer to them by 2-letter names like we do with "TF" "RT" "IP" "PG" etc. We can also use a naming style that indicates firepower improvements... sort of like the incremental number system used by different processor and vidcard manafacturers.
So some examples could be "Automatic Rifle : A1" <- the "LMG" as you know it, "Machine Gun: M4", "Flamethrower: F4" <- flamethrower and we'll put a '4' on guns that are top of their class in terms of what guns NS2 will provide by default.
The choice of 4 for "top" guns is because it almost center in digits 1 -> 0 on keyboard, is easy to press, and it permits guns to be added that are weaker and stronger then a "4" type gun.
(the old NS1 GL can be added as "Grenade Launcher: G1" since it sucks compared to something clip fed or full auto or pump-action that shoots grenades :P)
Hopefully this system will provide enough flexibility in naming for even the most heavily armed marine server to have 10 guns in each class, but of course they can go into double digit naming if they like... perhaps they want a different number for each color of smoke grenade or poison-gas grenade, etc.
But most importantly it's easy for someone new to the game to understand, even in the presence of a modded server with multiple weapons in each category. They can instantly determine if another weapon is stronger simply by its number designation.
Also people should read this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamethrower" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamethrower</a> It says how flamethrowers would more likely leak then explode when they are ruptured because the fuel inside is hard to ignite!! That movies overdramatize it.
Also... i'm sorry but "LMG" doesn't look to describe the NS2 LMG anymore... it looks more like this <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle</a> but more importantly, people will associate the NS2 lmg with a rifle (especially so if it'll have grenade launcher attachments and ###### like that... flashlight maybe? Laser sight? Aimpoint? ranging ability for airburst grenade detonation on flying targets with auto-aim? That really doesn't sound like a "light machine gun" :P) I mean look: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/screenshots/hiveconcept.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/sc...hiveconcept.jpg</a> Zoom in on the marines on the bottom... they got m4's with grenade launcher! lol
<!--quoteo(post=1713810:date=Jun 24 2009, 04:39 PM:name=Alaska)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alaska @ Jun 24 2009, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh come on, people. This is just like a bad combat-round: Please stop feeding (the trolls / the marines / the aliens)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I generally agree, however I'll just say this: I think there's a time to consider semantics when it contributes to clarifying something, I.E. calling a medkit an ammokit because both replenish something, the latter providing 'ammo' for your health will most likely only confuse and detract from gameplay. Clearly here we should change either the function or name of the ammokit as to avoid ambiguity.
In NS1 the use of the terms HMG's and LMG's however have come to embody something radically different from real world equivalents (being a sci-fi game). Changing them now would be as most are arguing, just semantics, and thus: nanites.
On the other hand, reading wikipedia and seeing how HMG's are deployable, it gave me an idea for NS2. What about adding a bipod or something so that troops could use them defensively like a mobile turret that's manually controlled? Let me know if this has been suggested already.
OMFG...I thought this thread would stop as soon as "Nanites" pop outs
okay, first of all let talk about the lmg NS1, I can't help it but realize that so many people did not notice the shells that coming out of the marine lmg are rifle rounds, infact it looks like a 5.56 rounds too. Second reason, it have a 50 rounds magazine. Third, it rate fire are quite high, could be even faster then a PARA....sum it up, sound quite like an lmg to me. You could debate about it being quite relatively weak at taking down large aliens but IT BECUZ IT A SCI-FI GAME! I could come up with crap more reason than Nanites to fend off any kind of facts about reality, because why? it's Sci-fi...where imagination rules!
Referring to the concept picture about marines holding m4...you know it call concept for a reason, maybe because they haven't completely agree and confirm about the design of the new marine weapon, and the artist probably had never played NS before just decided to draw the m4.
Also, I don't think that the developer is that unintellectual to not knew about the concept of smg and lmg (they probably had a debate over this before).
Please excuse the grammar in this post, its quite late right now...im tired and hardly care about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1713792:date=Jun 25 2009, 03:51 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 25 2009, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not so bad to rename all of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But it <b>is</b> pointless. Consider them nicknames and leave it at that. The kharaa don't internally call their various roles 'skulk', 'lerk', etc. They may not even have such a concept. They're just nicknames, which <b>work</b>, used for us as players to connect with.
<!--quoteo(post=1713909:date=Jun 25 2009, 06:45 AM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Jun 25 2009, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much sums it up, A1 is no better sounding, more technical, or means more to the player than LMG. Infact LMG probably means more to the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, did you not see the quotes... "Automatic Rifle : A1" That is it's name as it will appear in the gui etc. The purpose of the 2 letter designation is to allow people to use it in chat efficiently. The reason LMG fails is because it doesn't allow for "Automatic Rifle : A2" "Automatic Rifle : A3" "Automatic Rifle : A4". What are you going to start doing "LMG1" "LMG2" LMG3" ? Well my naming scheme is more compact... only 2 characters.
"Com!!! DROP SOME M4's and F4's!!!... god this A1 sucks" translation "Commander please drop some "hmgs" and flamethrowers...god this "lmg" sucks"
But... there is no LMG 2 oder LMG 3. Of course it could be implemented by a mod - but as previously stated. You would also need "Skulk ABC321" as naming-scheme since a mod could include another skulk-like-lifeform.
If someone really wants to implement more weapons that are nearly doing the same so that they are all LMGs he can start and rename the vanilla-weapons.
But as long as vanilla-ns2 only includes 1 LMG, 1 shottie, 1 HMG, 1 mine, 1 grenade etc pp there really is no need for such ridiculous annoying names like "Hecke und Kachel A431b scope-enhanced"... LMG is really enough
<!--quoteo(post=1713953:date=Jun 25 2009, 01:45 PM:name=Alaska)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alaska @ Jun 25 2009, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But... there is no LMG 2 oder LMG 3. Of course it could be implemented by a mod - but as previously stated. You would also need "Skulk ABC321" as naming-scheme since a mod could include another skulk-like-lifeform.
If someone really wants to implement more weapons that are nearly doing the same so that they are all LMGs he can start and rename the vanilla-weapons.
But as long as vanilla-ns2 only includes 1 LMG, 1 shottie, 1 HMG, 1 mine, 1 grenade etc pp there really is no need for such ridiculous annoying names like "Hecke und Kachel A431b scope-enhanced"... LMG is really enough<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off.. aliens can be 100% non related lifeforms as they are now. That is the reason having a name like "Skulk ABC321" doesn't make any sense at all.
Second... aliens would need more organic-ish names so a new alien can be called <insert random Pokemon name here>.
Now the main reason for adopting this naming style FOR GUNS is it allows for the following:
1. easily determining the weapons purpose and strength, while at the same time learning its 2-letter abbreviated name..( all from "Flamethrower: F4" we know it's a flamethrower and it's a lvl 4 strength weapon and "F4" explicitly identifies it against any other possible weapon and can be used in chat very fast as opposed to having to type out "Flamethrower" )
2. this naming style is efficient to enter in chat. Sure someone can say commander please drop some "Automatic Rifle: A1"... or he can just say "A1" and everyone will know what he means... he can also say "a1" obviously.
They can also ask the commander for some "M's".. ("Drop a M")... that is shorthand. for asking the commander for whatever type of Machine Gun he has... where Machine Gun is only be used to describe weapons similar to the NS1 "HMG".
3. NS2 will not be vanilla!!!! The game is so moddable that it will be where every other server is 100% not recognizable as "classic NS1". So in those cases where marines have AK47's, and the aliens are zombie scientists, then i guess we'll just revert to present day terminology "Com can i get an AK". But for those cases where the game stays sort of in the NS universe... it's not hard to imagine multiple shotguns... sniper rifles.... grenade launchers... sub machine guns... rocket launchers... helicopters... go karts... miniature golf... and i already mentioned zombies... but don't worry... i'm sure we'll see some xenomorphs and Predators aswell. And maybe even the AVP2 smart gun! And launchable "spider" grenades that chase down the enemy and run into the hive. Balance will be right out the window but knowone will care... it'll be to much fun. All the nostalgic people that cant stand their machine gun being called anything but "HMG" or "LMG" will flock back to NS1 where they will be superfades to rape marines on a day in day out basis. Everyone else will be playing garrysmod+aliens... i.e. NS2. Can't wait to see wiremod and spacebuild ported to NS2!!!
4. If we have 1 gun called HMG and 1 gun called LMG... then it prevents, and makes it very awkward, to have other guns that function as LMGs and HMGs. This is because "HMG" and "LMG" are categorical names... not something you use to identify one gun...
language is arbitrary - the meaning can be adjusted however the developers see fit.
Did you know the word nice used to mean "accurate", and before that it meant "stupid". Imagine for a moment that the definition of weaponry might change given a few hundred years.
The game isn't centered around the quantities of weapons you can fit in... The weapons in NS already reflect the different roles needed by weaponry (rapid-fire machine guns, explosive grenade launcher, shotguns, and soon flamethrower, plus add in the smaller weapons)
Go play CS if you want to have five types of assault rifles, three sniper rifles, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1713948:date=Jun 25 2009, 01:00 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 25 2009, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, did you not see the quotes... "Automatic Rifle : A1" That is it's name as it will appear in the gui etc. The purpose of the 2 letter designation is to allow people to use it in chat efficiently. The reason LMG fails is because it doesn't allow for "Automatic Rifle : A2" "Automatic Rifle : A3" "Automatic Rifle : A4". What are you going to start doing "LMG1" "LMG2" LMG3" ? Well my naming scheme is more compact... only 2 characters.
"Com!!! DROP SOME M4's and F4's!!!... god this A1 sucks" translation "Commander please drop some "hmgs" and flamethrowers...god this "lmg" sucks"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, your naming scheme was stupid. Your posts make it sound like you have never played Natural Selection or have any idea what it is about. There would never be ten weapons in the game all in the same class, as I said before it would add zero depth to the game. Even if some one made a POS mod with 40 different weapons chances are they still wouldn't want to use you naming scheme because, as I stated, its stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1713966:date=Jun 25 2009, 12:30 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 25 2009, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. easily determining the weapons purpose and strength, while at the same time learning its 2-letter abbreviated name..( all from "Flamethrower: <b>F4</b>" we know it's a flamethrower and it's a lvl 4 strength weapon and "<b>F4</b>" explicitly identifies it against any other possible weapon and can be used in chat very fast as opposed to having to type out "Flamethrower" )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1713966:date=Jun 26 2009, 12:30 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 26 2009, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. NS2 will not be vanilla!!!! The game is so moddable that it will be where every other server is 100% not recognizable as "classic NS1".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will most likely easily be able to separate between vanilla NS2 and mods in the server browser. If players get confused while playing a mod with a zillion weapons of great similarity, it is not because of the naming scheme in the unmodified game.
And there is not much to gain from keeping on defending your idea. You suggested something, UWE and others can read it, and if it isn't taken up, no shame in that. Don't invest emotionally.
All I care about is that the gun goes "boom" and things on the receiving end go "splat". Some of these guns may have bigger "booms", and as a result, bigger "splats", but I honestly don't care what they're named; if it's called the Fluffinator 9000, I'll call it whatever the hell is easiest for me to remember it by.
I'd honestly be more worried about the ultimate point of video games - the innovative features (...and balance) that make it fun and atmospheric. Hopefully mods will run wild with exciting game play ideas.
Comments
What if a server has a mod that includes a USAS type shotgun <a href="http://www.livevideo.com/video/928D0B5FDCCA4DFB835FA56DF39457A3/usas-12-fully-automatic-12-gau.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.livevideo.com/video/928D0B5FDCC...tic-12-gau.aspx</a>
Now you ask the com for a shottie... 50% chance you wont get what you want, if he gives you a gun at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if youre on a server that has an older version of a map, I mean, if you ask for veil and you really wanted veil from ns1.04, then they better name the new maps ns2_veil_v1.0. And what if the mod adds in a new type of skulk that cant climb on walls but can leap twice as far. The dev team better call the skulk wallwalker_skulk just incase someone adds this new addition. Someone might also make a green model of the skulk, so they better make considerations about colours too.
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol it would be sufficient to have established categories for TYPES of weapons... like HMG LMG SMG SHOTGUN PISTOL... and then have model numbers to explicitly identify the guns. This way theirs a way to add custom content to the game making use of the category. But in reality we don't need categories but everyone is hell bent that the words "HMG" and "LMG" appear in ns2 so we gotta include them some way so why not this way. Plus it would be useful if we replicate how halflife does weapons in the hud... like you can have a wrench or crowbar in that column... the one you access by pressing the number keys on the keyboard for the different weapon types...
The development team needs to take into account everything that the community might do to their game, just in case!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My sarcasmmeter is totally off the charts.
FocusedWolf's doesn't appear to be functioning.
You underestimate the communities ability to make up alternative names for things. For example, a Shotgun is also called a Shirtgun or simply a Shotty by many individuals. In your example, if the default Shotgun is indeed still on the server as a droppable weapon, then the players of that server will likely refer to the USAS Shotgun as "the USAS". I think you're really making this harder than it has to be. Also, I really thought the Marines were purchasing their own weapons from an armory in NS2 :\
your nanites seem to be malfunctioning
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See posts from 58 on. We are no longer arguing if their lmgs or not but rather should they be called "HMG", "LMG". The reason being it doesn't make sense to name a single particular gun with a name normally associated with an entire class of guns. And this could be a problem should a server be running a script that includes multiple forms of hmgs, lmgs, flamethrowers, etc. So the argument being made is to change their name to a model number at the least. And to maintain order in the UI, to have categories of weapons called "HMG" "LMG" etc.
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OKAY. Consider it more simply: it's just a nickname. Just as the skulk's name isn't 'skulk' in kharaanese.
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The weapons shouldn't be renamed just in case someone may or may not create a mod for the game. If they do let the modder rename whatever they want. It wouldn't add much depth to the game anyways to add multiple weapons of the same class.
There are various models of LMGs that are "modified versions of assault rifles" with enhancements to the barrels to prevent overheating, many of which are magazine fed (even to this day). Such as the RPK which has 40 round clips, or a 75 round drum magazine. It sounds much like the NS1 LMG to me as it never overheated, and held 50 rounds per clip. Go figure that it carries all the characteristics of what they named it after. The only real difference is that it has no bipod, but LMGs could be fired from the hip too, so while that's nit-picky it's not absurdly inaccurate.
HMGs, if you bothered to read the Wiki link were originally called "Heavy" because of their bulk, and ability to sustain constant fire. This definition was later changed to reflect the caliber which the weapon fired instead of it's weight. Arguments could be made either way. NS1 HMG's were definitely bulky, and could indeed sustain constant fire for periods of time. And the rate that they could tear up buildings, Onos, Hives, Fades all reflect a fairly high caliber ammunition. And while "todays" firearms suffer from the tremendous recoil, one could argue that superior technology in recoil management has allowed it to be easily handled in the field, or simply "nanites" if you wish to go down that route, whichever makes you sleep easier at night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer to everything. We can end this discussion now.
What else would you call them? If your gonna give them funky names you'd have to rename the pistol and mines and shotgun and everything else as well to have a consistent naming scheme.
It's not so bad to rename all of them. We can still maintain having "human"-friendly elements in their name until people start to just refer to them by 2-letter names like we do with "TF" "RT" "IP" "PG" etc. We can also use a naming style that indicates firepower improvements... sort of like the incremental number system used by different processor and vidcard manafacturers.
So some examples could be "Automatic Rifle : A1" <- the "LMG" as you know it, "Machine Gun: M4", "Flamethrower: F4" <- flamethrower and we'll put a '4' on guns that are top of their class in terms of what guns NS2 will provide by default.
The choice of 4 for "top" guns is because it almost center in digits 1 -> 0 on keyboard, is easy to press, and it permits guns to be added that are weaker and stronger then a "4" type gun.
(the old NS1 GL can be added as "Grenade Launcher: G1" since it sucks compared to something clip fed or full auto or pump-action that shoots grenades :P)
Hopefully this system will provide enough flexibility in naming for even the most heavily armed marine server to have 10 guns in each class, but of course they can go into double digit naming if they like... perhaps they want a different number for each color of smoke grenade or poison-gas grenade, etc.
But most importantly it's easy for someone new to the game to understand, even in the presence of a modded server with multiple weapons in each category. They can instantly determine if another weapon is stronger simply by its number designation.
Also people should read this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamethrower" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamethrower</a> It says how flamethrowers would more likely leak then explode when they are ruptured because the fuel inside is hard to ignite!! That movies overdramatize it.
Also... i'm sorry but "LMG" doesn't look to describe the NS2 LMG anymore... it looks more like this <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle</a> but more importantly, people will associate the NS2 lmg with a rifle (especially so if it'll have grenade launcher attachments and ###### like that... flashlight maybe? Laser sight? Aimpoint? ranging ability for airburst grenade detonation on flying targets with auto-aim? That really doesn't sound like a "light machine gun" :P) I mean look: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/screenshots/hiveconcept.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/ns2/sc...hiveconcept.jpg</a> Zoom in on the marines on the bottom... they got m4's with grenade launcher! lol
This is just like a bad combat-round:
Please stop feeding (the trolls / the marines / the aliens)
This is just like a bad combat-round:
Please stop feeding (the trolls / the marines / the aliens)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I generally agree, however I'll just say this: I think there's a time to consider semantics when it contributes to clarifying something, I.E. calling a medkit an ammokit because both replenish something, the latter providing 'ammo' for your health will most likely only confuse and detract from gameplay. Clearly here we should change either the function or name of the ammokit as to avoid ambiguity.
In NS1 the use of the terms HMG's and LMG's however have come to embody something radically different from real world equivalents (being a sci-fi game). Changing them now would be as most are arguing, just semantics, and thus: nanites.
On the other hand, reading wikipedia and seeing how HMG's are deployable, it gave me an idea for NS2. What about adding a bipod or something so that troops could use them defensively like a mobile turret that's manually controlled? Let me know if this has been suggested already.
okay, first of all let talk about the lmg NS1, I can't help it but realize that so many people did not notice the shells that coming out of the marine lmg are rifle rounds, infact it looks like a 5.56 rounds too. Second reason, it have a 50 rounds magazine. Third, it rate fire are quite high, could be even faster then a PARA....sum it up, sound quite like an lmg to me. You could debate about it being quite relatively weak at taking down large aliens but IT BECUZ IT A SCI-FI GAME! I could come up with crap more reason than Nanites to fend off any kind of facts about reality, because why? it's Sci-fi...where imagination rules!
Referring to the concept picture about marines holding m4...you know it call concept for a reason, maybe because they haven't completely agree and confirm about the design of the new marine weapon, and the artist probably had never played NS before just decided to draw the m4.
Also, I don't think that the developer is that unintellectual to not knew about the concept of smg and lmg (they probably had a debate over this before).
Please excuse the grammar in this post, its quite late right now...im tired and hardly care about it.
But it <b>is</b> pointless. Consider them nicknames and leave it at that. The kharaa don't internally call their various roles 'skulk', 'lerk', etc. They may not even have such a concept. They're just nicknames, which <b>work</b>, used for us as players to connect with.
Pretty much sums it up, A1 is no better sounding, more technical, or means more to the player than LMG. Infact LMG probably means more to the player.
No, did you not see the quotes... "Automatic Rifle : A1" That is it's name as it will appear in the gui etc. The purpose of the 2 letter designation is to allow people to use it in chat efficiently. The reason LMG fails is because it doesn't allow for "Automatic Rifle : A2" "Automatic Rifle : A3" "Automatic Rifle : A4". What are you going to start doing "LMG1" "LMG2" LMG3" ? Well my naming scheme is more compact... only 2 characters.
"Com!!! DROP SOME M4's and F4's!!!... god this A1 sucks" translation "Commander please drop some "hmgs" and flamethrowers...god this "lmg" sucks"
Of course it could be implemented by a mod - but as previously stated. You would also need "Skulk ABC321" as naming-scheme since a mod could include another skulk-like-lifeform.
If someone really wants to implement more weapons that are nearly doing the same so that they are all LMGs he can start and rename the vanilla-weapons.
But as long as vanilla-ns2 only includes 1 LMG, 1 shottie, 1 HMG, 1 mine, 1 grenade etc pp there really is no need for such ridiculous annoying names like "Hecke und Kachel A431b scope-enhanced"... LMG is really enough
Of course it could be implemented by a mod - but as previously stated. You would also need "Skulk ABC321" as naming-scheme since a mod could include another skulk-like-lifeform.
If someone really wants to implement more weapons that are nearly doing the same so that they are all LMGs he can start and rename the vanilla-weapons.
But as long as vanilla-ns2 only includes 1 LMG, 1 shottie, 1 HMG, 1 mine, 1 grenade etc pp there really is no need for such ridiculous annoying names like "Hecke und Kachel A431b scope-enhanced"... LMG is really enough<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off.. aliens can be 100% non related lifeforms as they are now. That is the reason having a name like "Skulk ABC321" doesn't make any sense at all.
Second... aliens would need more organic-ish names so a new alien can be called <insert random Pokemon name here>.
Now the main reason for adopting this naming style FOR GUNS is it allows for the following:
1. easily determining the weapons purpose and strength, while at the same time learning its 2-letter abbreviated name..( all from "Flamethrower: F4" we know it's a flamethrower and it's a lvl 4 strength weapon and "F4" explicitly identifies it against any other possible weapon and can be used in chat very fast as opposed to having to type out "Flamethrower" )
2. this naming style is efficient to enter in chat. Sure someone can say commander please drop some "Automatic Rifle: A1"... or he can just say "A1" and everyone will know what he means... he can also say "a1" obviously.
They can also ask the commander for some "M's".. ("Drop a M")... that is shorthand. for asking the commander for whatever type of Machine Gun he has... where Machine Gun is only be used to describe weapons similar to the NS1 "HMG".
3. NS2 will not be vanilla!!!! The game is so moddable that it will be where every other server is 100% not recognizable as "classic NS1". So in those cases where marines have AK47's, and the aliens are zombie scientists, then i guess we'll just revert to present day terminology "Com can i get an AK". But for those cases where the game stays sort of in the NS universe... it's not hard to imagine multiple shotguns... sniper rifles.... grenade launchers... sub machine guns... rocket launchers... helicopters... go karts... miniature golf... and i already mentioned zombies... but don't worry... i'm sure we'll see some xenomorphs and Predators aswell. And maybe even the AVP2 smart gun! And launchable "spider" grenades that chase down the enemy and run into the hive. Balance will be right out the window but knowone will care... it'll be to much fun. All the nostalgic people that cant stand their machine gun being called anything but "HMG" or "LMG" will flock back to NS1 where they will be superfades to rape marines on a day in day out basis. Everyone else will be playing garrysmod+aliens... i.e. NS2. Can't wait to see wiremod and spacebuild ported to NS2!!!
4. If we have 1 gun called HMG and 1 gun called LMG... then it prevents, and makes it very awkward, to have other guns that function as LMGs and HMGs. This is because "HMG" and "LMG" are categorical names... not something you use to identify one gun...
I like it.
Did you know the word nice used to mean "accurate", and before that it meant "stupid". Imagine for a moment that the definition of weaponry might change given a few hundred years.
Go play CS if you want to have five types of assault rifles, three sniper rifles, etc.
"Com!!! DROP SOME M4's and F4's!!!... god this A1 sucks" translation "Commander please drop some "hmgs" and flamethrowers...god this "lmg" sucks"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, your naming scheme was stupid. Your posts make it sound like you have never played Natural Selection or have any idea what it is about. There would never be ten weapons in the game all in the same class, as I said before it would add zero depth to the game. Even if some one made a POS mod with 40 different weapons chances are they still wouldn't want to use you naming scheme because, as I stated, its stupid.
You are right that wouldn't be confusing at all.
You will most likely easily be able to separate between vanilla NS2 and mods in the server browser. If players get confused while playing a mod with a zillion weapons of great similarity, it is not because of the naming scheme in the unmodified game.
And there is not much to gain from keeping on defending your idea. You suggested something, UWE and others can read it, and if it isn't taken up, no shame in that. Don't invest emotionally.
I'd honestly be more worried about the ultimate point of video games - the innovative features (...and balance) that make it fun and atmospheric. Hopefully mods will run wild with exciting game play ideas.