I would beg you, the developers, to consider a couple things while you consider ideas proposed here.
Grapple sounds like an okay idea, but think of the work involved.
First, say a skulk comes at a marine from behind, staying at ground level, and grapples. Does the marine continue to move his leg normally? If not, you need an animation for that. If the marine falls, does he fall backward or forward? Need an animation for those as well. Does the skulk stay motionless as it is attached to the leg? If not, you need an animation for that as well.
Then consider the skulk attacking from any other angle. If you aren't going to make the engine consider every possibility, or you aren't going to make an animation for every possibility, then you would have to have the skulk "snap" to the closest animation point. So if you bite a marine on the shoulder, the skulk might "snap" to the marines forearm or neck or stomach, depending on what the engine thought was the closest animation point at the time.
Snapping to points in the game would make for choppy looking graphics, and animating every possibility or including these possibilities in the engine would be a lot of work. I understand that it can be done, but I was hoping to be playing this game... maybe... Halloween? ;D
As far as parasite goes, I had an idea. People are saying, "well, make it an individual parasite" or "make it last 15 seconds" or other similar statements. But then, doesn't that kind of defeat the point of parasite? Parasite shows other aliens where marines are. If a parasite only works for yourself, then it's pointless, because if you parasited the marine you obviously already know where he/she (YAY) is.
I still think my idea for licking wounds is the best, as it does fit the best with what I feel a skulk to be. I think someone else said, "Well, skulks will just run and hide to heal instead of fighting." But that's the idea. When you're down to 15 or 20 HP, you don't run across the entire map to get back to a hive. The gorge is too busy building in the first half of the game to be following you acting as your personal medic. Fades can heal themselves. Lerks fly, making it easy to get quickly back to a hive. An onos has so many hitpoints that redeem works well for getting them back to a hive.
However, many people are wanting a disabling attack. I think that any kind of knockdown or grapple attack would be too complicated technically to include. Where would it stop? Can jetpackers (assuming they are included) be targeted? Can Heavy Armor marines be knocked down by a skulk? Et cetera, et cetera.
I had another idea for a disabling attack. Someone had mentioned sound as a very disorienting tactic. Since skulks move by pushing bone-like parts between steel plates, it doesn't make much sense that it would be a quiet thing. But what if skulks could roar? I'm not talking about the roar that lerks have now, that boosts movement speed or attack rate or anything.
Have you seen 30 days of night? The vampires in that movie made a screeching wail. The way I imagine it, the skulk would stand still and its 3-way mouth would open up and it would emit a similar kind of screech. What this would do is play in mono in any marine speakers, and drown out other noises. You can hear the scream, you can't hear what direction it's coming from, and it keeps you from being able to hear the advances of other lifeforms.
I think leap is too unbalanced of an ability to give aliens at the start of the game without gimping it to the point that it's unusable. Marine's start with crap armor, so their defense (especially versus a beefier skulk) is their ranged attack. Leap negates that defense.
I think grapple is too technically demanding to implement at this time. Maybe in NS2 2.0 you could include it, but I think you guys probably have better things to work on at the moment.
I think personal parasite is a waste of parasite. It negates the purpose parasite was designed for.
I think one animation ideas are the best at this stage of development. I think you should go for skulk wound licking or skulk screeching.
Actually, all these suggestions are now null and void as UWE have just announced that the bite, due to the unpopularity of the infamous in-mouth-CAM, has been replaced by LASERS that go PEWPEWPEW. Skulks can now snipe marines from a distance with a single PEW. The alt fire will be the skulk saying "IMMA CHARGIN' MAH LASER!!!!!" while it charges the laser shot for about 3 seconds. Once this blast is unleashed it will do damage that is way OVER 9000!
<!--quoteo(post=1721266:date=Aug 7 2009, 10:05 AM:name=Rzr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rzr @ Aug 7 2009, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok I have an idea...
- (New ability) Slime: This skill allows the Skulk to spit Slime on his way. This sticky Slime slows down marines and assists on a quick escape. or creates the perfect opportunity for ambushes and counter-attacks. Since the Alien skin has been improved greatly since NS1, they are likely to not be affected by their fellows slime. Multi-purpose ability that can be countered to an extent by skilled marines that are able to identify the slime and dodge/jump it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly think my idea would be a great addition to the role of ambusher/striker of the Skulk, and I can already visualize UWE using the code of the Dynamic Infestation to create the same visual/deployment behavior for Slime... imagine you spraying the Slime to cover the area the way you want (capped by the adrenaline you have, of course), creating a custom ambush. IE. two strips of slime, one after the other - marine sees and jumps the first, only to fall on the next ;)
This slime could be capped by quantity, ala Gorge's Web, or by time limit, diminishing its "sticky" effect during the period. First one is my favorite, for the very reasons Webs were limited that way.
Pros: - Easy to learn, hard to master ability; - Ambusher role improvement; - Gameplay depth - Infinite deployment possibilities = awesome freaking ability to use
Cons: - Can´t think of any... honestly
EDIT: regarding the post bellow - yes resresres, our ideas are similar, but mine is for the Skulk, not the Gorge, for it is meant to have purposes beyond helping an escape. And I didn´t read your ideas before posting, my apologies.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Wow I think it's cool you guys are thinking of a grapple style attack. I think it would work well as long as it fostered a "back and forth" type combat between kharaa and rines. So the rines have options to counter, but misusing the counter would leave the marine more open. I've discussed this at length of the forums, but here's a quick summary. <!--quoteo(post=1694429:date=Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... It would be another weapon in the skulk's arsenal, not replacing the leap/bite mechanics.<ul><li> Secondary fire of bite and/or leap is a latch on attack.</li><li> Initial bite may or may not do reduced damage.</li><li> <b>No</b> knockdown/disable/slow/visual imparement.</li><li> Damage dealt around 15 per second. Enough to make it faster to bite opponent normally.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*] Possible balancing features:<ul><li> Secondary knife fire insta-hits.</li><li> Welder knockback.</li><li> Allow skulks on side/front to be knocked off with quickstrike(weapon switch not needed)</li></ul>In order to prevent marine movement from being nerfed too much I have a couple of further[possible] limitations:<ul><li> Bite cooldown empties and freezes while in use(so must wait entire bite cooldown <b>after release</b> before biting)</li><li> Uses adren(like charge/blink)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Benefits: <!--quoteo(post=1694437:date=Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> Encourages marines to cover each other</li><li> New form of "baiting"(one hops on back to force knife, next skulk takes advantage)</li><li> Newbies can now "follow" a jumping marine(only in an ambush situation, and at the cost of being vulnerable and doing much less damage)</li><li> Biting and moving is still quicker so it doesn't remove the upper caps on skulk skill</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lots of interesting ideas in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105516&hl=latch" target="_blank">this thread</a>.
I also like the "finishing move with a drawback + drag" idea suggested here.
The reason why personal parasite was suggested was because now alien commander does the scouting, not skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>What about 'site?!</b> You'll notice that he no longer has Parasite. The reason we currently don't have it as one of his abilities is because we think it's better for the Alien Commander to be scouting (which is the main purpose of Parasite). I really like the secondary purpose of it though, which is to do a small amount of ranged damage to kind of goad a marine into (hopefully, very stupid) action. I would love a kind of provoking ability for him here and will probably put one in later if we come up with an appropriate one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So personal parasite would be only for you and you have to do the stalking and killing. Although FTNPhoenix did scrap this idea I think it should be implement in some form.
<!--quoteo(post=1721288:date=Aug 7 2009, 10:37 AM:name=FTNPhoenix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FTNPhoenix @ Aug 7 2009, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as parasite goes, I had an idea. People are saying, "well, make it an individual parasite" or "make it last 15 seconds" or other similar statements. But then, doesn't that kind of defeat the point of parasite? Parasite shows other aliens where marines are. If a parasite only works for yourself, then it's pointless, because if you parasited the marine you obviously already know where he/she (YAY) is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never stated that the parasite could only be viewed by the alien who shot it. However, Charlie specifically stated his reasoning to pull it was because the Alien Commander will in some way do scouting for the Kharaa. I use parasite in NS1 as tracking for the team at large (a PG in hive/double, RTs), but I also use it for personal effect (para a marine to lower armor, hit marine in open room and stalk him until an opportunity presents itself).
With my suggestion, because I LOVE parasite and it's advantages, and because frankly, Charlie and co don't seem to have anyhting locked down and asked for suggestions, the parasite ability can be utilized in its original form, albeit more limited. With the additional information posted on the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107139" target="_blank">I&S thread</a> I created, you can see how tactically, a seemingly small and temporary attack/tracking ability can be used to become a great tactical advantage for gameplay.
I can envision a teched up squad of marines, and a few skulks gather to para them as much as possible to help the Kharaa see the movement of the squad. Or a Heavy Armor/other marine who has been getting a lot of kills, and has been permanently marked so the Kharaa can set an ambush.
It's not a simple personal tool, it can be utilized powerfully.
<b>Also, it doesn't involve new animtions (maybe one), and simple sprite additions. In effect, it's a quick and easy add, and familiar territory for NS players.</b>
*Also a reverse leap that damages and knocks back any marine infront of you might be interesting. So if you have several marines you can leap>bite>reverse leap in like a second and maybe kill one of the marines will the reverse leap. Would look like the skulk kicks the Marine with hind legs and jumps backwards doing a fli... I actually don't like this idea anymore. But maybe it inspires someone to think up a better one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I still kinda like it, I came here thinking along those lines too. Doesn't need to have to have any silly looking backflips, just rear and leap up then club up and out with the stronger looking forelimbs.
I'd guess make it slower and a fair amount weaker than bite (eg. Bite does 75 Alt fire does 40ish) and keep the knockback pretty minor
Asuming the knockback isn't a difficult mechanic to implement it seems a fairly simple gameplay mechanic that gives a lot of options. It sticks with the skulk agile hit-and-run style and gives some of the disruption of a grapple without being half as annoying. It has it's own built in learning curve, on it's own leaping away from the marine you're trying to kill and doing less damage is counter productive, but if you can aim your alt so you leap back into a wall and set up for another leap forward you're making yourself a more difficult target with constant vector changes.
A knockback offers plenty of situational uses too, knocking that one marine at the front of a squad behind a crate for a few seconds out of his squad's line of sight for everyone to munch on him, or disrupting the aim of someone trying to finish a fleeing fade. A skulk can control the knockback direction by manouvering and aiming to the left or right of center so again it has it's own learning curve to knock back the marines just how you want to.
It's nothing too flashy, but it's useful in so many situations and in conjunction with so many other things. It would serve well as the alt fire of the primary weapon of the most common kharaa lifeform.
As alrdy stated many times the obvious choice for mouse2 is leap, it makes playing more fluid and responsive. The introduction of +movement was a great move in ns, so pls don’t go back to lastinv for aliens.
For a third ability don’t let it be a grappling attack, or any other immobilizing/disabling attack for that matter. There is nothing more bothersome and annoying than dying when you can’t fight back. A lot of people seem to think that abilities like a grappling attack improves teamwork, imo it only forces you to move in big groups. Good teamwork isn’t about moving together in one big group, good teamwork is about communication, its sending a lonely capper out to get rts, its sneaking a pg while the rest of the team is making a push somewhere else, its controlling the map and resource, its knowing and communicating when to make the big push for a hive with all players and when to move around in smaller squads. Teamwork shouldn’t be force down on the player, by adding skills you can only counter by moving in groups. Teamwork comes naturally when playing a good balance game. Sure there will be players that are very deadly and capable of winning games almost by them self, but what would football be without players like Messi and Ronaldo? Boring?
Para should stay in the game, but make it have a short duration opposed to the infinitive duration in ns. It would not take the scouting away from the alien commander but it would greatly help the skulk knowing when to attack, and para is also a great way of harassing turtling marines. I also kinda like the “licking wounds†ability, it could cost adrenalin and this used adrenalin would take longer to replenish than adrenalin used on other skills. Sorta like in guild wars, where some skills causes exhaustion, this reduces your maximum energy for a set amount of time.
What was your counter argument again? Religion? I'm still waiting on a reply on why religion applies to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think his argument was that religion is the abandonment of logic.
It relates in that you defend bitecam because YOU have no alterantive thought up. That said, I really enjoy the bitecam in all aspects.
As far as the grapplinghook goes I agree with Space_Cowboy. I really liked the sticky slime suggestion a few posts up because it's not that intrusive to the marine players, it can be dodged, and it just sounds like it would fit and be fun. Not only can you directly use it for an ambush, you can set up a fake ambushspot really quickly, allowing you to either just slow them down waiting for a scan or whatever, or go around and come from behind.
Edit: And if not slime, a modified parasite will do. Wrote some thoughts up on page 2 yesterday.
<!--quoteo(post=1721305:date=Aug 7 2009, 04:58 PM:name=Dead-Inside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dead-Inside @ Aug 7 2009, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think his argument was that religion is the abandonment of logic.
It relates in that you defend bitecam because YOU have no alterantive thought up. That said, I really enjoy the bitecam in all aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was not me who brought religion up as an argument. I wanted Opprobrious to follow up on his original claim around religion.
Please read all the forum threads before replying.
There's a lot of debate over grapple type moves, and I haven't seen one yet that people seem to be really satisfied with, so let me propose one:
----- Bite alt-fire is a grapple move that latches the skulk onto whatever he hit. It does low damage compared to regular bite. It changes the damage type for regular bite to anti-structure damage.
If a skulk grapples a building, he is vulnerable because he is stuck to it, but can kill the building much faster because his bite is now doing structure damage. If he wants to get off, he has to re-use the grapple attack to detach, which takes a moment or two.
If a skulk grapples a marine, the marine is NOT disabled. The marine's camera will be jolted (kinda like the Onos stomp thing), so his aim will be off for a moment, but he can still shoot and can get the skulk off of himself reasonably quickly. But if he doesn't shoot the skulk off, the fact that the skulk is attached to him means the skulk can go back to using regular bites and will never miss. Very useful for jetpackers -- leap onto a jet in midair, grapple, and you're now hanging off the jet as he flies and can finish him off with regular bites.
The grapple attack would stop you from using regular bites until the animation finished, something like 1/2 a second to maybe 1 second depending on balance. This would give a grappled marine a brief window to shoot you off before you could switch back to regular bites and munch him. A grappled marine would still be able to move and fly, but would be slowed to maybe 2/3 normal speed.
The animation would show the skulk initially latching on with his jaws, then using his front claws to hold on/dig in with a sort of bear-hug move, then releasing his jaw so he can go back to biting. That would help it make more sense that if for example the marine turns around, the skulk stays latched onto the same point. You don't swing around with him.
<!--quoteo(post=1721312:date=Aug 7 2009, 05:33 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Aug 7 2009, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd want leap to be bite alt fire... because changing mid jump in order to bite was just a pain in the ASS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is it with the people in this thread?
Do this; 1. Get on a server where the aliens have 2 hives (or more). 2. Join aliens. 3. Spawn. 4. Press R. Or, if you've rebound your reload key, press whichever button you reload with. 5. Stop asking for leap as the alternate fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1721310:date=Aug 7 2009, 05:28 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Aug 7 2009, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was not me who brought religion up as an argument. I wanted Opprobrious to follow up on his original claim around religion.
<b>Please read all the forum threads before replying.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I applaud Unknown Worlds for making alien creatures <b>without resorting to six legs, or insectoid exoskeleton, or reptilian scales.</b> Bravo.
I love love LOVE the idea that the Kharaa and Fronteersman have been influencing and learning from eachother. On the Onos model, the armor bits looks ridiculous, like it's wearing plates it stole from the Fronteersman. On the Skulk model they look properly organic, imperfect. Grown.
I don't like the concept or model skin color. I can't really say why. I bet the Skulk is that color for camouflage.
The concept and models' jaw. There needs to be about an inch of separation between the upper and lower teeth, and the teeth shouldn't come all the way back to the jaw hinge, I think. If your jaw is configured like that and the teeth are even a little out of alignment, you're stabbing your jaw with your teeth. It looks silly this way. I don't think you could get any power from a lower jaw that splits apart like that either.
The 3d artist fixed what was wrong with the concept's posture, but I think he missed on the proportions. I preferred the concept's head to claws ratio
I like the concept's stony ears, but on the model they look more like awkward horns.
Finally, why can't the external models' teeth look like they do on NS's internal Skulk model? I think the Skulk would look awesome with a blunted snout arrayed with twelve carnassial chompers.
I don't mind that idea for grapple, but I'd suggest a couple of tweaks: 1. Can only be applied from the rear of a marine. Try it from the front and you'll miss. 2. Only one grappler per marine. 3. Since it's from behind the marine, that marine can't shoot you off him/herself. 4. It needs a very obvious sound attached to it so that other marines in close vicinity know something is up.
I'm thinking of the size of the skulks, I don't think they'd be able to hang off of a leg or arm easily, they're just too big, but those claws could reach around the torso and thus make the skulk into some sort of unholy back-pack from hell.
Note that this leaves the marine fully functional (until the skulk kills him), and adds a very strong element of skill and/or ambushing to the skulk class. You can't just hit a marine, you have to hit him from behind.
No no, making the marine able to save HIMSELF from the skulk grapple is VERY important. Skulks should not have an auto-win ability in 1v1 fights. Sure, teamwork is nice and all, but given that there are the same number of total players on each team, you have to take 1v1s into account as well.
Also requiring you to hit from behind makes the grapple mostly useless vs jetpacks, and I was trying to make something that could be used lategame.
Personally, due to the new skulk having these big front legs, I'd like to see the Alt-Fire to be some kind of 'Leg-Swipe' where the skulk can leg-swipe a marine to the floor, the marine can still shoot while on the floor, but cant get up himself and shoot at the same time. If other marines help him up (ala L4D) he can get up quicker. This would force marines to stop rambo-ing and stay in a team.
I'd suggest the 'reload' time on this be quite a long time, so Skulks cant just keep doing it. But for me, sounds like a good idea.
Not to stoked about the parasite being gone, but then again I'm such an NS1 junkie that if you guys repackaged it and called it NS2 I'd be just as happy.
Just like how every worthwhile player in NS1 bound mouse2 to +movement, and always had leap / blink on their mouse2 once they had 2 hives. Please, please, please keep this model, by trying this suggestion. It drastically lowers the learning curve for the ability, and simply makes all players able to use it for awesome combat!
And with whatever other abilities are available for the skulk, he'll always have Leap ready. If para is kept in, skulks will be able to leap in, para, and leap out, just like in NS1 where it is such amazing gameplay.
My suggestion for parasite:
I highly recommend keeping it in, at least in some form.
If you want to integrate the Alien Comm that much, make it so only he can see Para. Perhaps all aliens can see Paras, but the alien comm can see exactly what kind of marine it is, with what gun, etc.
Hell, even give the alien comm an ability to do something with a parasited marine. Something like: be able to take over a parasited marine's view for 3 seconds, and only able to use this ability once every 2 minutes. So the alien comm can see para'd marines on a map or such, see one that's in a marine base, take him over (which freezes that marine's controls), look around (just turning, no movements or actions) and then lose control. Since he can only do this somewhat rarely and it only effects one para'd marine, it's almost like a Scan. That marine would probably flip out over the mic, telling the comm he'd just been 'farsighted' or whatnot.
I made a topic of its own for this, found <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107142" target="_blank"><u>here</u></a>.
This skulk grapling marines is silly. If we think realisticly and assume that skulk weights now something 20-30 kg, imagine you having 30kg SMASHED (leap) on your back or chest (this is not the same as your friend wants to piggyback with you. This is you running and shooting) and not being ready for anything jumping on you. You simply couldn't keep your balance. Also skulk would bite you, you will panic.
But if we ignore realistic perspective (there are aliens so we can do this) marines should use taser to remove grapled skulks. I imagine it would be impossible to shoot something off your chest with HMG or flamethrower. But how would this be seen on your computer screen? By looking down you see skulk smiling to you and giving the hug of your life?
There are some problems with this grapling skill.
I suggested non-aggressive skill couple post ago: Stampede so skulk sounds like there are 3 skulks running in the vent.
<!--quoteo(post=1721322:date=Aug 7 2009, 11:38 AM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cxwf @ Aug 7 2009, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No no, making the marine able to save HIMSELF from the skulk grapple is VERY important. Skulks should not have an auto-win ability in 1v1 fights. Sure, teamwork is nice and all, but given that there are the same number of total players on each team, you have to take 1v1s into account as well.
Also requiring you to hit from behind makes the grapple mostly useless vs jetpacks, and I was trying to make something that could be used lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the marine can save himself, the skill becomes absolutely useless because any marine feeling the "jolt" of the skulk hit will pretty much automatically scan and detach the skulk after the first couple of times it's used on them. Thus negating any surprise advantage the skulk may have had while doing minimal damage. I'd give it about 3 days before people simply don't bother trying to use it anymore.
And yes, I believe that if you are in a 1vs1 fight with a skulk while alone and you let it get within bite range and behind you? You deserve to auto-lose.. rambos die, ninjas need to be exceptionally skilled.
That's really awesome! I'm really enjoying these updates, they are making me more interested in this game again. It's also making me anxious to play it, and hopefully the Alpha and Beta will come out soon. I like how you guys are not just slapping on new textures on old NS1 characters. You are creating brand new creatures that have the same principles and features, but also fit into the environments you guys are creating. I think it looks great and really looking forward to seeing the Gorge, Lerk and Fade! I would also like to see some marine updates and what you guys are doing with their weapons and structures? That would be sweet if you could incorporate a sort of computer like overlay for the marines that they can turn on. It would be very advanced technology and help you out (like the picture on the top of the forums with the girl marines and the blue bar overlay going across her face).
Anyways good work on the Skulk and hopefully the changes will still fit together.
<i>The Skulk opens it's maw wide, snapping it shut with force.</i>
If a Skulk lands this attack on a Marine, the Skulk bites down and doesn't let go for between 2 and 3 seconds. He twists his head left and right, viciously tearing and pulling off Marinestuff. This of course makes the Skulk immobile.
If this Skulk is in contact with a solid surface, it digs it's claws in, and the Marine can only turn 40 degrees left or right, or he turns a bit more slowly. If a Skulk does this attack from the front, the Marine can simply shoot it. If it is from behind, the Marine relies on his teammates to shoot the Skulk off. This could be especially usefull in a 2 on 2 situation, the Skulk using this attack could prevent one Marine from turning to aid his ally, while the other Skulk catches the remaining Marine by surprise.
If this attack is preformed on a jetpacker, he is wieghed down, but he has a couple seconds before he reaches the ground.
This attack would only do a small chunk of health if incomplete, but if the Skulk preforms the attack for the whole 2 to 3 seconds, the Skulk is launched backwards as it pops off a sheared chunk of armor. Thus it would do a small chunk of health damage, but it would all but eliminate the Marines' armor, making him easy pickings for the Skulks' allies. Once the attack is complete, the Skulk is delayed in the time it can move again, and the Marine has an excellent chance of turning around and shooting the Skulk. In this way, it makes the Skulk vulnerable and encourages it to retreat and bite the Marine again from a different angle.
If preformed on a Marine structure, it could have some sort of negative effect. If structures have armor, it could reduce the structure's armor. If they don't it could make a weak spot where biting the structure does more damage. If preformed on the right spot a few times, it could deactivate Electrify. It could maybe remove a function of the structure until repaired.
In any case, the main solid points of this secondary bite attack are;
<b>-The Skulk is immobile while doing it.
-The Marine can't turn all the way, or turns slowly while subject to it.
-It takes a while. Longer than a Focus bite.
-It does little health damage, and devastating Armor damage.
-In an encounter with more than one Marine, requires teamwork to be even a little effective.
-Makes destroying structures a little less monotonous</b>
For these reasons, it doesn't extrude into Focus territory too much. It requires teamwork on the part of both Marines and Skulks.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2009
Grappling is an idea that seems cool, but will detract more than it adds to gameplay. It would be fun for a few weeks, but after that the novelty would wear off and it would be terribly tedious for all parties involved. Compare it to the Onos devour: Very cool, great novelty value. It was fun for a short while after release, but now it's just boring for both the Onos and unfortunate marine. Unless you like griefing combat servers of course...
I like some of the suggestions for a changed parasite, I definitely think it's a good idea to include it, even if it doesn't work as a scouting tool for the aliens in the field. I have a couple of suggestions (my apologies if they've already been mentioned, I haven't read everything):
1. Beef up the damage to make it a more offensive tool for the skulk, no other effect than damage. Obviously this shouldn't be the main skulk weapon. The damage should still be low, but enough to hinder a marine hit by several parasites.
or
2. The parasite doesn't give the aliens in the field any scouting advantages, but helps the alien commander. A parasited marine would show up the same way motion tracking shows up on the commander's screen in NS1.
Skulk is looking much better than NS1 (Which looked like an alien dog ^_^ ) as skulk will be the sneaking alien type I say secondary attack would be mid range spit which you need to aim the helmet or head, and it will affect the marines sight they won't be blinded but won't be easy to see clearly it can be used to escape from marines or kill them so skulk can use the ability to hunt a marine, support team or avoid enemy it may damage marines little or none and should need a cool down so it won't be spamed but it shouldn't take too much to charge as well beta test could determine the time needed
-bite-cam argument... take it elsewhere please. -pls don't ask about Bhop in here... use one of the many many other pre-existing threads
This thread was hard enought o read through as it was with all the alt-fire discussion
Also...
<!--quoteo(post=1721159:date=Aug 7 2009, 01:06 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Aug 7 2009, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After every update I feel more and more disappointed. Hate to be that guy but I'm sorry guys, you are doing it wrong. Those flipping changes in the alien classes are weird... What are you thinking, seriously, who is making this to you Frayra? Did you ever consider just keeping the original gameplay with the new engine? It would be great. Seriously, you are trashing the best part of your own master piece. Please, please give us just the NS1 with the new engine, I'll pay for it whatever you want. NS2 will be in the trash can in the 10 minutes mark after the release of the beta. You are losing the compass, get back to the roots of your own idea and give us what we played the last 6 years every night and never got old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously? I disagree completely with your point of view and also with the fact that you ranted for so long in that post without really saying what you didn't like about the skulk update.
<!--quoteo(post=1721250:date=Aug 7 2009, 07:09 AM:name=Tom Hoen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom Hoen @ Aug 7 2009, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fresh idea for non aggressive ability: Skulk stomps his legs on the floor more rapidly and this makes noices like there would be 3 skulks incoming. This ability could be trickered while running.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a great idea. Great way to ward off solo marines, and keeps the Skulk in a scouting role.
Firstly have all the alien attacks be just a button press away AND let us have separate binds for aliens and marines for example have binds for.
alien_attack1 alien_attack2 alien_attack3 alien_attack4 +movement (like "reload" in NS1 but with the freedom to bind separately)
Where alien_attack1 would be mouse1 by defaul and bite for skulk and so on...
<!--quoteo(post=1721156:date=Aug 7 2009, 12:58 AM:name=grepdashv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grepdashv @ Aug 7 2009, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bite needs no alt-fire, nor should it have one. In fact, none of the alien abilities should probably have an alt-fire, and very few of the marine weapons should. For the aliens, the second mouse button should be used for movement abilities for the classes that have them, healspray for gorge, and spores for the lerk (unless something like diving or perching is implemented). For the marines, alt-fire would make sense for things like rolling a grenade instead of throwing it, toggling a mine between proximity and trip mode, or using a welder in some novel way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for that... including the marine ideas but especially the alien stuff.
Moving on (Since we still need extra abilities for the skulk) I think we should consider all these alt fire suggestion as alien_attack2 for the skulk (maybe hive unlockable).
I personally like the parasite. If you must nerf it for the alien com's sake then just make it temporary and only visible to aliens within a certain range of the affected marine (like scent of fear the other way around).
<!--quoteo(post=1721069:date=Aug 6 2009, 06:59 PM:name=Phaeton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Phaeton @ Aug 6 2009, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... for the ranged attack maybe it be like parasite but instead of dealing direct damage it just increases the damage they would sustain if attacked...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a spit attack that does no damage itself but would increase any other damage inflicted on a currently spitted marine? I like that. Very teamwork oriented
<!--quoteo(post=1721078:date=Aug 6 2009, 07:33 PM:name=Cricket)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cricket @ Aug 6 2009, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I'm for the grappling secondary, it sounds interesting and it opens up a lot of teamplay aspects. The big problem IS how the Marine would get the skulk off. It seems a little too harsh to have to completely rely on a teammate to get rid of the thing, even though I encourage teamplay-orientated mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. I'm ALL for teamwork stuff, but the L4D mechanics are too harsh for NS style gameplay. Lone Marine should be LIKELY to die not SURE to die.
I'm completely against all these ranged disorienting attacks that blur vision or shake the marine view in any way. The Hearing loss thing sounded good though.
Comments
Grapple sounds like an okay idea, but think of the work involved.
First, say a skulk comes at a marine from behind, staying at ground level, and grapples. Does the marine continue to move his leg normally? If not, you need an animation for that. If the marine falls, does he fall backward or forward? Need an animation for those as well. Does the skulk stay motionless as it is attached to the leg? If not, you need an animation for that as well.
Then consider the skulk attacking from any other angle. If you aren't going to make the engine consider every possibility, or you aren't going to make an animation for every possibility, then you would have to have the skulk "snap" to the closest animation point. So if you bite a marine on the shoulder, the skulk might "snap" to the marines forearm or neck or stomach, depending on what the engine thought was the closest animation point at the time.
Snapping to points in the game would make for choppy looking graphics, and animating every possibility or including these possibilities in the engine would be a lot of work. I understand that it can be done, but I was hoping to be playing this game... maybe... Halloween? ;D
As far as parasite goes, I had an idea. People are saying, "well, make it an individual parasite" or "make it last 15 seconds" or other similar statements. But then, doesn't that kind of defeat the point of parasite? Parasite shows other aliens where marines are. If a parasite only works for yourself, then it's pointless, because if you parasited the marine you obviously already know where he/she (YAY) is.
I still think my idea for licking wounds is the best, as it does fit the best with what I feel a skulk to be. I think someone else said, "Well, skulks will just run and hide to heal instead of fighting." But that's the idea. When you're down to 15 or 20 HP, you don't run across the entire map to get back to a hive. The gorge is too busy building in the first half of the game to be following you acting as your personal medic. Fades can heal themselves. Lerks fly, making it easy to get quickly back to a hive. An onos has so many hitpoints that redeem works well for getting them back to a hive.
However, many people are wanting a disabling attack. I think that any kind of knockdown or grapple attack would be too complicated technically to include. Where would it stop? Can jetpackers (assuming they are included) be targeted? Can Heavy Armor marines be knocked down by a skulk? Et cetera, et cetera.
I had another idea for a disabling attack. Someone had mentioned sound as a very disorienting tactic. Since skulks move by pushing bone-like parts between steel plates, it doesn't make much sense that it would be a quiet thing. But what if skulks could roar? I'm not talking about the roar that lerks have now, that boosts movement speed or attack rate or anything.
Have you seen 30 days of night? The vampires in that movie made a screeching wail. The way I imagine it, the skulk would stand still and its 3-way mouth would open up and it would emit a similar kind of screech. What this would do is play in mono in any marine speakers, and drown out other noises. You can hear the scream, you can't hear what direction it's coming from, and it keeps you from being able to hear the advances of other lifeforms.
I think leap is too unbalanced of an ability to give aliens at the start of the game without gimping it to the point that it's unusable. Marine's start with crap armor, so their defense (especially versus a beefier skulk) is their ranged attack. Leap negates that defense.
I think grapple is too technically demanding to implement at this time. Maybe in NS2 2.0 you could include it, but I think you guys probably have better things to work on at the moment.
I think personal parasite is a waste of parasite. It negates the purpose parasite was designed for.
I think one animation ideas are the best at this stage of development. I think you should go for skulk wound licking or skulk screeching.
(NSFW):
<a href="http://encyclopediadramatica.com/IMMA_CHARGIN_MAH_LAZER" target="_blank">http://encyclopediadramatica.com/IMMA_CHARGIN_MAH_LAZER</a>
<img src="http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/8/8/ihasalaser128627011056406916.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/pewpewpew.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
- (New ability) Slime: This skill allows the Skulk to spit Slime on his way. This sticky Slime slows down marines and assists on a quick escape. or creates the perfect opportunity for ambushes and counter-attacks. Since the Alien skin has been improved greatly since NS1, they are likely to not be affected by their fellows slime. Multi-purpose ability that can be countered to an extent by skilled marines that are able to identify the slime and dodge/jump it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly think my idea would be a great addition to the role of ambusher/striker of the Skulk, and I can already visualize UWE using the code of the Dynamic Infestation to create the same visual/deployment behavior for Slime... imagine you spraying the Slime to cover the area the way you want (capped by the adrenaline you have, of course), creating a custom ambush. IE. two strips of slime, one after the other - marine sees and jumps the first, only to fall on the next ;)
This slime could be capped by quantity, ala Gorge's Web, or by time limit, diminishing its "sticky" effect during the period. First one is my favorite, for the very reasons Webs were limited that way.
Pros:
- Easy to learn, hard to master ability;
- Ambusher role improvement;
- Gameplay depth
- Infinite deployment possibilities = awesome freaking ability to use
Cons:
- Can´t think of any... honestly
EDIT: regarding the post bellow - yes resresres, our ideas are similar, but mine is for the Skulk, not the Gorge, for it is meant to have purposes beyond helping an escape. And I didn´t read your ideas before posting, my apologies.
<!--quoteo(post=1694429:date=Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... It would be another weapon in the skulk's arsenal, not replacing the leap/bite mechanics.<ul><li> Secondary fire of bite and/or leap is a latch on attack.</li><li> Initial bite may or may not do reduced damage.</li><li> <b>No</b> knockdown/disable/slow/visual imparement.</li><li> Damage dealt around 15 per second. Enough to make it faster to bite opponent normally.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*] Possible balancing features:<ul><li> Secondary knife fire insta-hits.</li><li> Welder knockback.</li><li> Allow skulks on side/front to be knocked off with quickstrike(weapon switch not needed)</li></ul>In order to prevent marine movement from being nerfed too much I have a couple of further[possible] limitations:<ul><li> Bite cooldown empties and freezes while in use(so must wait entire bite cooldown <b>after release</b> before biting)</li><li> Uses adren(like charge/blink)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Benefits:
<!--quoteo(post=1694437:date=Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Nov 26 2008, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li> Encourages marines to cover each other</li><li> New form of "baiting"(one hops on back to force knife, next skulk takes advantage)</li><li> Newbies can now "follow" a jumping marine(only in an ambush situation, and at the cost of being vulnerable and doing much less damage)</li><li> Biting and moving is still quicker so it doesn't remove the upper caps on skulk skill</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lots of interesting ideas in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105516&hl=latch" target="_blank">this thread</a>.
I also like the "finishing move with a drawback + drag" idea suggested here.
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>What about 'site?!</b> You'll notice that he no longer has Parasite. The reason we currently don't have it as one of his abilities is because we think it's better for the Alien Commander to be scouting (which is the main purpose of Parasite). I really like the secondary purpose of it though, which is to do a small amount of ranged damage to kind of goad a marine into (hopefully, very stupid) action. I would love a kind of provoking ability for him here and will probably put one in later if we come up with an appropriate one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So personal parasite would be only for you and you have to do the stalking and killing. Although FTNPhoenix did scrap this idea I think it should be implement in some form.
Never stated that the parasite could only be viewed by the alien who shot it. However, Charlie specifically stated his reasoning to pull it was because the Alien Commander will in some way do scouting for the Kharaa. I use parasite in NS1 as tracking for the team at large (a PG in hive/double, RTs), but I also use it for personal effect (para a marine to lower armor, hit marine in open room and stalk him until an opportunity presents itself).
With my suggestion, because I LOVE parasite and it's advantages, and because frankly, Charlie and co don't seem to have anyhting locked down and asked for suggestions, the parasite ability can be utilized in its original form, albeit more limited. With the additional information posted on the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107139" target="_blank">I&S thread</a> I created, you can see how tactically, a seemingly small and temporary attack/tracking ability can be used to become a great tactical advantage for gameplay.
I can envision a teched up squad of marines, and a few skulks gather to para them as much as possible to help the Kharaa see the movement of the squad. Or a Heavy Armor/other marine who has been getting a lot of kills, and has been permanently marked so the Kharaa can set an ambush.
It's not a simple personal tool, it can be utilized powerfully.
<b>Also, it doesn't involve new animtions (maybe one), and simple sprite additions. In effect, it's a quick and easy add, and familiar territory for NS players.</b>
*Also a reverse leap that damages and knocks back any marine infront of you might be interesting. So if you have several marines you can leap>bite>reverse leap in like a second and maybe kill one of the marines will the reverse leap. Would look like the skulk kicks the Marine with hind legs and jumps backwards doing a fli... I actually don't like this idea anymore. But maybe it inspires someone to think up a better one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I still kinda like it, I came here thinking along those lines too. Doesn't need to have to have any silly looking backflips, just rear and leap up then club up and out with the stronger looking forelimbs.
I'd guess make it slower and a fair amount weaker than bite (eg. Bite does 75 Alt fire does 40ish) and keep the knockback pretty minor
Asuming the knockback isn't a difficult mechanic to implement it seems a fairly simple gameplay mechanic that gives a lot of options. It sticks with the skulk agile hit-and-run style and gives some of the disruption of a grapple without being half as annoying. It has it's own built in learning curve, on it's own leaping away from the marine you're trying to kill and doing less damage is counter productive, but if you can aim your alt so you leap back into a wall and set up for another leap forward you're making yourself a more difficult target with constant vector changes.
A knockback offers plenty of situational uses too, knocking that one marine at the front of a squad behind a crate for a few seconds out of his squad's line of sight for everyone to munch on him, or disrupting the aim of someone trying to finish a fleeing fade. A skulk can control the knockback direction by manouvering and aiming to the left or right of center so again it has it's own learning curve to knock back the marines just how you want to.
It's nothing too flashy, but it's useful in so many situations and in conjunction with so many other things. It would serve well as the alt fire of the primary weapon of the most common kharaa lifeform.
For a third ability don’t let it be a grappling attack, or any other immobilizing/disabling attack for that matter. There is nothing more bothersome and annoying than dying when you can’t fight back.
A lot of people seem to think that abilities like a grappling attack improves teamwork, imo it only forces you to move in big groups. Good teamwork isn’t about moving together in one big group, good teamwork is about communication, its sending a lonely capper out to get rts, its sneaking a pg while the rest of the team is making a push somewhere else, its controlling the map and resource, its knowing and communicating when to make the big push for a hive with all players and when to move around in smaller squads. Teamwork shouldn’t be force down on the player, by adding skills you can only counter by moving in groups. Teamwork comes naturally when playing a good balance game. Sure there will be players that are very deadly and capable of winning games almost by them self, but what would football be without players like Messi and Ronaldo? Boring?
Para should stay in the game, but make it have a short duration opposed to the infinitive duration in ns. It would not take the scouting away from the alien commander but it would greatly help the skulk knowing when to attack, and para is also a great way of harassing turtling marines.
I also kinda like the “licking wounds†ability, it could cost adrenalin and this used adrenalin would take longer to replenish than adrenalin used on other skills. Sorta like in guild wars, where some skills causes exhaustion, this reduces your maximum energy for a set amount of time.
What was your counter argument again? Religion? I'm still waiting on a reply on why religion applies to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think his argument was that religion is the abandonment of logic.
It relates in that you defend bitecam because YOU have no alterantive thought up. That said, I really enjoy the bitecam in all aspects.
As far as the grapplinghook goes I agree with Space_Cowboy. I really liked the sticky slime suggestion a few posts up because it's not that intrusive to the marine players, it can be dodged, and it just sounds like it would fit and be fun. Not only can you directly use it for an ambush, you can set up a fake ambushspot really quickly, allowing you to either just slow them down waiting for a scan or whatever, or go around and come from behind.
Edit: And if not slime, a modified parasite will do. Wrote some thoughts up on page 2 yesterday.
It relates in that you defend bitecam because YOU have no alterantive thought up. That said, I really enjoy the bitecam in all aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was not me who brought religion up as an argument. I wanted Opprobrious to follow up on his original claim around religion.
Please read all the forum threads before replying.
(<a href="http://www.thefriendsociety.com/anim.php?id=typo&w=550&h=400" target="_blank">http://www.thefriendsociety.com/anim.php?i...w=550&h=400</a>)
There's a lot of debate over grapple type moves, and I haven't seen one yet that people seem to be really satisfied with, so let me propose one:
-----
Bite alt-fire is a grapple move that latches the skulk onto whatever he hit. It does low damage compared to regular bite. It changes the damage type for regular bite to anti-structure damage.
If a skulk grapples a building, he is vulnerable because he is stuck to it, but can kill the building much faster because his bite is now doing structure damage. If he wants to get off, he has to re-use the grapple attack to detach, which takes a moment or two.
If a skulk grapples a marine, the marine is NOT disabled. The marine's camera will be jolted (kinda like the Onos stomp thing), so his aim will be off for a moment, but he can still shoot and can get the skulk off of himself reasonably quickly. But if he doesn't shoot the skulk off, the fact that the skulk is attached to him means the skulk can go back to using regular bites and will never miss. Very useful for jetpackers -- leap onto a jet in midair, grapple, and you're now hanging off the jet as he flies and can finish him off with regular bites.
The grapple attack would stop you from using regular bites until the animation finished, something like 1/2 a second to maybe 1 second depending on balance. This would give a grappled marine a brief window to shoot you off before you could switch back to regular bites and munch him. A grappled marine would still be able to move and fly, but would be slowed to maybe 2/3 normal speed.
The animation would show the skulk initially latching on with his jaws, then using his front claws to hold on/dig in with a sort of bear-hug move, then releasing his jaw so he can go back to biting. That would help it make more sense that if for example the marine turns around, the skulk stays latched onto the same point. You don't swing around with him.
What is it with the people in this thread?
Do this;
1. Get on a server where the aliens have 2 hives (or more).
2. Join aliens.
3. Spawn.
4. Press R. Or, if you've rebound your reload key, press whichever button you reload with.
5. Stop asking for leap as the alternate fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1721310:date=Aug 7 2009, 05:28 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Aug 7 2009, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was not me who brought religion up as an argument. I wanted Opprobrious to follow up on his original claim around religion.
<b>Please read all the forum threads before replying.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
I love love LOVE the idea that the Kharaa and Fronteersman have been influencing and learning from eachother. On the Onos model, the armor bits looks ridiculous, like it's wearing plates it stole from the Fronteersman. On the Skulk model they look properly organic, imperfect. Grown.
I don't like the concept or model skin color. I can't really say why. I bet the Skulk is that color for camouflage.
The concept and models' jaw. There needs to be about an inch of separation between the upper and lower teeth, and the teeth shouldn't come all the way back to the jaw hinge, I think. If your jaw is configured like that and the teeth are even a little out of alignment, you're stabbing your jaw with your teeth. It looks silly this way. I don't think you could get any power from a lower jaw that splits apart like that either.
The 3d artist fixed what was wrong with the concept's posture, but I think he missed on the proportions. I preferred the concept's head to claws ratio
I like the concept's stony ears, but on the model they look more like awkward horns.
Finally, why can't the external models' teeth look like they do on NS's internal Skulk model? I think the Skulk would look awesome with a blunted snout arrayed with twelve carnassial chompers.
1. Can only be applied from the rear of a marine. Try it from the front and you'll miss.
2. Only one grappler per marine.
3. Since it's from behind the marine, that marine can't shoot you off him/herself.
4. It needs a very obvious sound attached to it so that other marines in close vicinity know something is up.
I'm thinking of the size of the skulks, I don't think they'd be able to hang off of a leg or arm easily, they're just too big, but those claws could reach around the torso and thus make the skulk into some sort of unholy back-pack from hell.
Note that this leaves the marine fully functional (until the skulk kills him), and adds a very strong element of skill and/or ambushing to the skulk class. You can't just hit a marine, you have to hit him from behind.
Also requiring you to hit from behind makes the grapple mostly useless vs jetpacks, and I was trying to make something that could be used lategame.
I'd suggest the 'reload' time on this be quite a long time, so Skulks cant just keep doing it. But for me, sounds like a good idea.
Not to stoked about the parasite being gone, but then again I'm such an NS1 junkie that if you guys repackaged it and called it NS2 I'd be just as happy.
ALL secondary fires for Skulk are Leap.
Just like how every worthwhile player in NS1 bound mouse2 to +movement, and always had leap / blink on their mouse2 once they had 2 hives. Please, please, please keep this model, by trying this suggestion. It drastically lowers the learning curve for the ability, and simply makes all players able to use it for awesome combat!
And with whatever other abilities are available for the skulk, he'll always have Leap ready. If para is kept in, skulks will be able to leap in, para, and leap out, just like in NS1 where it is such amazing gameplay.
My suggestion for parasite:
I highly recommend keeping it in, at least in some form.
If you want to integrate the Alien Comm that much, make it so only he can see Para. Perhaps all aliens can see Paras, but the alien comm can see exactly what kind of marine it is, with what gun, etc.
Hell, even give the alien comm an ability to do something with a parasited marine. Something like: be able to take over a parasited marine's view for 3 seconds, and only able to use this ability once every 2 minutes. So the alien comm can see para'd marines on a map or such, see one that's in a marine base, take him over (which freezes that marine's controls), look around (just turning, no movements or actions) and then lose control. Since he can only do this somewhat rarely and it only effects one para'd marine, it's almost like a Scan. That marine would probably flip out over the mic, telling the comm he'd just been 'farsighted' or whatnot.
I made a topic of its own for this, found <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107142" target="_blank"><u>here</u></a>.
But if we ignore realistic perspective (there are aliens so we can do this) marines should use taser to remove grapled skulks. I imagine it would be impossible to shoot something off your chest with HMG or flamethrower. But how would this be seen on your computer screen? By looking down you see skulk smiling to you and giving the hug of your life?
There are some problems with this grapling skill.
I suggested non-aggressive skill couple post ago: Stampede so skulk sounds like there are 3 skulks running in the vent.
Also requiring you to hit from behind makes the grapple mostly useless vs jetpacks, and I was trying to make something that could be used lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marine can save himself, the skill becomes absolutely useless because any marine feeling the "jolt" of the skulk hit will pretty much automatically scan and detach the skulk after the first couple of times it's used on them. Thus negating any surprise advantage the skulk may have had while doing minimal damage. I'd give it about 3 days before people simply don't bother trying to use it anymore.
And yes, I believe that if you are in a 1vs1 fight with a skulk while alone and you let it get within bite range and behind you? You deserve to auto-lose.. rambos die, ninjas need to be exceptionally skilled.
Anyways good work on the Skulk and hopefully the changes will still fit together.
BITE AND TWIST
<i>The Skulk opens it's maw wide, snapping it shut with force.</i>
If a Skulk lands this attack on a Marine, the Skulk bites down and doesn't let go for between 2 and 3 seconds. He twists his head left and right, viciously tearing and pulling off Marinestuff. This of course makes the Skulk immobile.
If this Skulk is in contact with a solid surface, it digs it's claws in, and the Marine can only turn 40 degrees left or right, or he turns a bit more slowly.
If a Skulk does this attack from the front, the Marine can simply shoot it. If it is from behind, the Marine relies on his teammates to shoot the Skulk off.
This could be especially usefull in a 2 on 2 situation, the Skulk using this attack could prevent one Marine from turning to aid his ally, while the other Skulk catches the remaining Marine by surprise.
If this attack is preformed on a jetpacker, he is wieghed down, but he has a couple seconds before he reaches the ground.
This attack would only do a small chunk of health if incomplete, but if the Skulk preforms the attack for the whole 2 to 3 seconds, the Skulk is launched backwards as it pops off a sheared chunk of armor. Thus it would do a small chunk of health damage, but it would all but eliminate the Marines' armor, making him easy pickings for the Skulks' allies.
Once the attack is complete, the Skulk is delayed in the time it can move again, and the Marine has an excellent chance of turning around and shooting the Skulk. In this way, it makes the Skulk vulnerable and encourages it to retreat and bite the Marine again from a different angle.
If preformed on a Marine structure, it could have some sort of negative effect. If structures have armor, it could reduce the structure's armor. If they don't it could make a weak spot where biting the structure does more damage. If preformed on the right spot a few times, it could deactivate Electrify. It could maybe remove a function of the structure until repaired.
In any case, the main solid points of this secondary bite attack are;
<b>-The Skulk is immobile while doing it.
-The Marine can't turn all the way, or turns slowly while subject to it.
-It takes a while. Longer than a Focus bite.
-It does little health damage, and devastating Armor damage.
-In an encounter with more than one Marine, requires teamwork to be even a little effective.
-Makes destroying structures a little less monotonous</b>
For these reasons, it doesn't extrude into Focus territory too much. It requires teamwork on the part of both Marines and Skulks.
I like some of the suggestions for a changed parasite, I definitely think it's a good idea to include it, even if it doesn't work as a scouting tool for the aliens in the field. I have a couple of suggestions (my apologies if they've already been mentioned, I haven't read everything):
1. Beef up the damage to make it a more offensive tool for the skulk, no other effect than damage. Obviously this shouldn't be the main skulk weapon. The damage should still be low, but enough to hinder a marine hit by several parasites.
or
2. The parasite doesn't give the aliens in the field any scouting advantages, but helps the alien commander. A parasited marine would show up the same way motion tracking shows up on the commander's screen in NS1.
-pls don't ask about Bhop in here... use one of the many many other pre-existing threads
This thread was hard enought o read through as it was with all the alt-fire discussion
Also...
<!--quoteo(post=1721159:date=Aug 7 2009, 01:06 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Aug 7 2009, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After every update I feel more and more disappointed. Hate to be that guy but I'm sorry guys, you are doing it wrong. Those flipping changes in the alien classes are weird... What are you thinking, seriously, who is making this to you Frayra? Did you ever consider just keeping the original gameplay with the new engine? It would be great. Seriously, you are trashing the best part of your own master piece. Please, please give us just the NS1 with the new engine, I'll pay for it whatever you want. NS2 will be in the trash can in the 10 minutes mark after the release of the beta. You are losing the compass, get back to the roots of your own idea and give us what we played the last 6 years every night and never got old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously? I disagree completely with your point of view and also with the fact that you ranted for so long in that post without really saying what you didn't like about the skulk update.
Skulk stomps his legs on the floor more rapidly and this makes noices like there would be 3 skulks incoming. This ability could be trickered while running.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a great idea. Great way to ward off solo marines, and keeps the Skulk in a scouting role.
Firstly have all the alien attacks be just a button press away AND let us have separate binds for aliens and marines for example have binds for.
alien_attack1
alien_attack2
alien_attack3
alien_attack4
+movement (like "reload" in NS1 but with the freedom to bind separately)
Where alien_attack1 would be mouse1 by defaul and bite for skulk and so on...
<!--quoteo(post=1721156:date=Aug 7 2009, 12:58 AM:name=grepdashv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grepdashv @ Aug 7 2009, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bite needs no alt-fire, nor should it have one. In fact, none of the alien abilities should probably have an alt-fire, and very few of the marine weapons should. For the aliens, the second mouse button should be used for movement abilities for the classes that have them, healspray for gorge, and spores for the lerk (unless something like diving or perching is implemented). For the marines, alt-fire would make sense for things like rolling a grenade instead of throwing it, toggling a mine between proximity and trip mode, or using a welder in some novel way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for that... including the marine ideas but especially the alien stuff.
Moving on (Since we still need extra abilities for the skulk) I think we should consider all these alt fire suggestion as alien_attack2 for the skulk (maybe hive unlockable).
I personally like the parasite. If you must nerf it for the alien com's sake then just make it temporary and only visible to aliens within a certain range of the affected marine (like scent of fear the other way around).
<!--quoteo(post=1721069:date=Aug 6 2009, 06:59 PM:name=Phaeton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Phaeton @ Aug 6 2009, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... for the ranged attack maybe it be like parasite but instead of dealing direct damage it just increases the damage they would sustain if attacked...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a spit attack that does no damage itself but would increase any other damage inflicted on a currently spitted marine? I like that. Very teamwork oriented
<!--quoteo(post=1721078:date=Aug 6 2009, 07:33 PM:name=Cricket)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cricket @ Aug 6 2009, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...I'm for the grappling secondary, it sounds interesting and it opens up a lot of teamplay aspects. The big problem IS how the Marine would get the skulk off. It seems a little too harsh to have to completely rely on a teammate to get rid of the thing, even though I encourage teamplay-orientated mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I'm ALL for teamwork stuff, but the L4D mechanics are too harsh for NS style gameplay. Lone Marine should be LIKELY to die not SURE to die.
I'm completely against all these ranged disorienting attacks that blur vision or shake the marine view in any way. The Hearing loss thing sounded good though.