<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't seem like LASHING OUT. PR response imo. But it does provide insight into your way of thinking and perception.
Just watched the Far Cry 3 Level Edit Demo: <a href="http://au.xbox360.ign.com/dor/articles/1014410/gc-2009-cry-engine-3-demo/videos/gcom09act_crytekdemo_p1_081709.html" target="_blank">http://au.xbox360.ign.com/dor/articles/101..._p1_081709.html</a>
And what they are doing there looks like (if not exactly) what NS2 team are doing with their level creations - WYSIWYG
Would love a hallway fly-thru on a sample (completed) level. That's a few DD or MM away from now?
<!--quoteo(post=1723381:date=Aug 17 2009, 09:40 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Aug 17 2009, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem defensive and a bit arrogant so at least you're in like company. You're right, I didn't mean everyone when I said "we" and as a grammatical point: I don't have to. I was referring to the folks that have been posting in contrast to the pistol-knife-taser, skulk, and armory changes not "all" or "everyone." I'm not strictly for or against on any of them. I just try to throw out things to think about as a devil's advocate and in this case to try to consolidate some of the views I've been reading.
Let's face it, the pistol-knife-taser debate stepped on a lot of toes and they told you, the developers, about it per what you asked. If you're just looking for a bunch of cheerleaders, it would be a waste of time. The sentence you take issue with is one that cuts developers the most because it says that you don't have the same point of view as your audience. Do your drawings and projects look the same to you as to others? Of course not, it's part of the human condition. We grow attached to things we've made for sentimental reasons just like we get attached to ideas which happen to be our own.
You're correct about not listening to everyone's opinions but you've come a long way by at least asking for them. Be careful that you're not just looking for affirmation of your own beliefs and ideas, it's not healthy. Sometimes that type of mental hermitage leads to a Picasso or Van Gogh... but more often you'll get a person with thirty cats. It's a gamble and you have to pick an outcome, and no one likes to be second guessed even when they're not sure. Your "knowledge, experience, love for NS, and gut instinct" are formidable but so are your critics. You can't do what all of them ask, but at least you've heard them out.
I know you want kudos after all that work, and my apologies for leaving those out as "covered in the thread already." I love the style, animation, color choices, and friendliness of your design. I can tell a lot of work has gone into the modeling and I find it almost humorous in a dark way that it looks like it will hug the marine to help him relieve from the tension of almost being eaten.
So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can understand what you said and agree completely, you did a very good abstract IMO.
Nevertheless, I think this kind of feedback is a waste of time and we have a pity hope in a change / they have to backup eachother in front of their audience, no matter what, even using sophisms because they are in the middle of a hurry delivering more media showing those kinda shaved baboons running: The concept in NS was much more intelligent in every single detail. Looking at the new armory, I think the life time of this "master piece" will be very short: they got in the middle of the games' war with a non polished product while loosing their captive market, disappointing some of their most loyal and passionate followers from five years back killing our favorite alien classes after years of practice, muscle memory wasted, and giving us instead an empty eyecandy cpu intensive laggy rendering engine with a sauce of brainless features like flametowers (WWII NATO banned *cough* futuristic weapon) in spaceships / spacestations with small / limited amounts of oxygen LOL. It has been pretty sad to me watch this whole, unbelievable, process. GG
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I'd like to think Cory's reply was directed more at C4K3 than at Kiopaen. C4K3, you should learn a bit from Kiopaen, who is a lot more tactful.
And though we all love hearing from Cory, things that draw him out to post comments like those are not really productive in the scheme of NS2 production.
I think that whenever any new feature or art is introduced people who don't like it are the ones who will be more compelled to post about their dislikes. Therefore usually creating the appearance of lesser acceptance ratios than the actual truth. This does two things. 1st it wrongfully scares the devs into thinking most of us really don't like something. And two it gives a lot of self-justification to the naysayers who get the impression mostly people agree with them..
<!--quoteo(post=1723392:date=Aug 18 2009, 12:27 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Aug 18 2009, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[1]... they got in the middle of the games' war with a non polished product ...
[2]... loosing their captive market, disappointing some of their most loyal and passionate followers from five years back killing our favorite alien classes after years of practice, muscle memory wasted, ...
[3]... giving us instead an empty eyecandy cpu intensive laggy rendering engine with a sauce of brainless features.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[1] Your statement makes no sense! Game is not out yet. [2] Years of practice? muscle memory wasted? Ok... now we all know what YOU want out of NS2. And what you want is something NS2 was NEVER meant to be or should it be. [3] Empty eyecan...? Laggy rendering engine? brainless fea...? Where you get off saying that? These are all unfounded statements the game is not out! You have not experienced it nor do you even know the full list of planned features.
The will always be people that complain about any changes, regardless of how positive they may be. I really do hope that the devs take the game forward and refuse to release the same exact game on a new engine. Doing so would be a horrible mistake, see Team Fortress 2 vs. Fortress Forever as an example.
People would do well to reserve judgment until seeing a finished product.
<!--quoteo(post=1723381:date=Aug 17 2009, 07:40 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Aug 17 2009, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You seem defensive and a bit arrogant so at least you're in like company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assume that you include yourself in the "like company." It's ok, arrogance is not <b>always</b> a bad thing. However:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that <b>they've made you more conscious of the topic</b> whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One thing you should probably take to heart, though, is that when people disagree with you on the internet or otherwise, they're not always angry or defensive about it, but may be just trying to correct what they feel is in error. Cory specifically disagreed with your assumption that UWE isn't aware of what people like and don't like. Obviously, it's a ridiculous assumption, and in fact, it seems you don't even agree with it, as referenced by the <b>section I've bolded</b> in the above quote.
The fact that he disagreed with you has no correlation with his personal emotional state, and the post I read contained no personal attacks, lashing out or "angry words" but seemed quite honest and frank. Although, if I spent time every day reading and posting in the forums, posting on twitter and on my company blog about the state of my game, then was accused of being ignorant of the community feelings, I would probably be pretty frustrated.
<!--quoteo(post=1723381:date=Aug 18 2009, 01:40 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Aug 18 2009, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem defensive and a bit arrogant so at least you're in like company. You're right, I didn't mean everyone when I said "we" and as a grammatical point: I don't have to. I was referring to the folks that have been posting in contrast to the pistol-knife-taser, skulk, and armory changes not "all" or "everyone." I'm not strictly for or against on any of them. I just try to throw out things to think about as a devil's advocate and in this case to try to consolidate some of the views I've been reading.
So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didn't lash out at all. In fact when you look at it his post it is completely void of emotion. The response was totally factual... I also find it ironic you called him arrogant then went on to tell them how to do their job. Play devil's advocate by all means, but be reasonable and above all respectful.
they shouldve probably made the armory circular and had screens around it and multiple footpads expand from it to make it feel more realistic that any number of marines can use it rather than just 4. even tho any number of marines can use it at the same time from any angle...it wud just look wierd that like 10 marines are humping the armory when it looks like it can only accommodate 4.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Moving back to the armory. i quite like it. Although I wish the arms weren't just purely aesthetic and could clip through people, but I'd have to see the final version in game to really decide. I'm wondering if whether the amount of ammo a person carrying will affect movement speed in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1723361:date=Aug 18 2009, 01:44 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 18 2009, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. The problem is that everyone has a different opinion about what the "treasured" elements were in NS. When you say "we" you really can only speak for yourself, as I'm sure you will find that there are just as many fans of NS who think completely the opposite from you. The other aspect is that many of these original NS 1 elements only become "treasures" to people once we say that we are changing/removing them.
We, as the developers, have to trust in our own knowledge, experience, love for NS, and our gut instincts. We spend a lot of time weighing the costs vs. benefits of changing something that people are attached to. But if all we do is listen to everyone's opinions about what should and shouldn't change in NS2 we would either end up with the same exact game as NS1, or a terrible mish mash of a game that in the end makes no one happy.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also because you're showcasing one feature at a time then people are going to put an extreme focus on that feature. Given that we the community don't know the context of how it all fits together, it's inevitable that people are going to find endless ways to pick each element apart. Nothing is ever completely perfect, and if you shine a spotlight on it then you'll highlight every little flaw.
Personally, what has me waiting in high anticipation is not the individual elements, but the experience as a whole. I know you guys are exceptionally good at what you do because your previous work speaks for itself, I DEFINATELY want you to apply that same level of creativity this time around. Though I'll be the first to flame the hell out of this forum (and possibly get banned) if the finished product sucks... but I'm betting it won’t.
Keep doing what you're doing on the development front, but your message management strategy could do with a few tweaks IMO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, what has me waiting in high anticipation is not the individual elements, but the experience as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't seem like LASHING OUT. PR response imo. But it does provide insight into your way of thinking and perception.
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Can't wait to see the gorge release too! HD vid direct from NS server this time? pretty please?
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Just watched the Far Cry 3 Level Edit Demo:
<a href="http://au.xbox360.ign.com/dor/articles/1014410/gc-2009-cry-engine-3-demo/videos/gcom09act_crytekdemo_p1_081709.html" target="_blank">http://au.xbox360.ign.com/dor/articles/101..._p1_081709.html</a>
And what they are doing there looks like (if not exactly) what NS2 team are doing with their level creations - WYSIWYG
Would love a hallway fly-thru on a sample (completed) level. That's a few DD or MM away from now?
Let's face it, the pistol-knife-taser debate stepped on a lot of toes and they told you, the developers, about it per what you asked. If you're just looking for a bunch of cheerleaders, it would be a waste of time. The sentence you take issue with is one that cuts developers the most because it says that you don't have the same point of view as your audience. Do your drawings and projects look the same to you as to others? Of course not, it's part of the human condition. We grow attached to things we've made for sentimental reasons just like we get attached to ideas which happen to be our own.
You're correct about not listening to everyone's opinions but you've come a long way by at least asking for them. Be careful that you're not just looking for affirmation of your own beliefs and ideas, it's not healthy. Sometimes that type of mental hermitage leads to a Picasso or Van Gogh... but more often you'll get a person with thirty cats. It's a gamble and you have to pick an outcome, and no one likes to be second guessed even when they're not sure. Your "knowledge, experience, love for NS, and gut instinct" are formidable but so are your critics. You can't do what all of them ask, but at least you've heard them out.
I know you want kudos after all that work, and my apologies for leaving those out as "covered in the thread already." I love the style, animation, color choices, and friendliness of your design. I can tell a lot of work has gone into the modeling and I find it almost humorous in a dark way that it looks like it will hug the marine to help him relieve from the tension of almost being eaten.
So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can understand what you said and agree completely, you did a very good abstract IMO.
Nevertheless, I think this kind of feedback is a waste of time and we have a pity hope in a change / they have to backup eachother in front of their audience, no matter what, even using sophisms because they are in the middle of a hurry delivering more media showing those kinda shaved baboons running: The concept in NS was much more intelligent in every single detail. Looking at the new armory, I think the life time of this "master piece" will be very short: they got in the middle of the games' war with a non polished product while loosing their captive market, disappointing some of their most loyal and passionate followers from five years back killing our favorite alien classes after years of practice, muscle memory wasted, and giving us instead an empty eyecandy cpu intensive laggy rendering engine with a sauce of brainless features like flametowers (WWII NATO banned *cough* futuristic weapon) in spaceships / spacestations with small / limited amounts of oxygen LOL. It has been pretty sad to me watch this whole, unbelievable, process. GG
And though we all love hearing from Cory, things that draw him out to post comments like those are not really productive in the scheme of NS2 production.
<!--quoteo(post=1723392:date=Aug 18 2009, 12:27 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Aug 18 2009, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[1]... they got in the middle of the games' war with a non polished product ...
[2]... loosing their captive market, disappointing some of their most loyal and passionate followers from five years back killing our favorite alien classes after years of practice, muscle memory wasted, ...
[3]... giving us instead an empty eyecandy cpu intensive laggy rendering engine with a sauce of brainless features.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[1] Your statement makes no sense! Game is not out yet.
[2] Years of practice? muscle memory wasted? Ok... now we all know what YOU want out of NS2. And what you want is something NS2 was NEVER meant to be or should it be.
[3] Empty eyecan...? Laggy rendering engine? brainless fea...? Where you get off saying that? These are all unfounded statements the game is not out! You have not experienced it nor do you even know the full list of planned features.
The value your opinion has dropped significantly.
People would do well to reserve judgment until seeing a finished product.
You seem defensive and a bit arrogant so at least you're in like company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume that you include yourself in the "like company." It's ok, arrogance is not <b>always</b> a bad thing. However:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that <b>they've made you more conscious of the topic</b> whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing you should probably take to heart, though, is that when people disagree with you on the internet or otherwise, they're not always angry or defensive about it, but may be just trying to correct what they feel is in error. Cory specifically disagreed with your assumption that UWE isn't aware of what people like and don't like. Obviously, it's a ridiculous assumption, and in fact, it seems you don't even agree with it, as referenced by the <b>section I've bolded</b> in the above quote.
The fact that he disagreed with you has no correlation with his personal emotional state, and the post I read contained no personal attacks, lashing out or "angry words" but seemed quite honest and frank. Although, if I spent time every day reading and posting in the forums, posting on twitter and on my company blog about the state of my game, then was accused of being ignorant of the community feelings, I would probably be pretty frustrated.
So now that I've thoroughly upset you, Cory, I'd like you to get over the criticisms and appreciate that they've made you more conscious of the topic whether you agree with all the facets or not. It's natural to hate your critics, but lashing out at them is another thing entirely. If you want your work to appeal to a larger audience, learn to detach yourself from the criticisms but not your work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didn't lash out at all. In fact when you look at it his post it is completely void of emotion. The response was totally factual... I also find it ironic you called him arrogant then went on to tell them how to do their job. Play devil's advocate by all means, but be reasonable and above all respectful.
We, as the developers, have to trust in our own knowledge, experience, love for NS, and our gut instincts. We spend a lot of time weighing the costs vs. benefits of changing something that people are attached to. But if all we do is listen to everyone's opinions about what should and shouldn't change in NS2 we would either end up with the same exact game as NS1, or a terrible mish mash of a game that in the end makes no one happy.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also because you're showcasing one feature at a time then people are going to put an extreme focus on that feature. Given that we the community don't know the context of how it all fits together, it's inevitable that people are going to find endless ways to pick each element apart. Nothing is ever completely perfect, and if you shine a spotlight on it then you'll highlight every little flaw.
Personally, what has me waiting in high anticipation is not the individual elements, but the experience as a whole. I know you guys are exceptionally good at what you do because your previous work speaks for itself, I DEFINATELY want you to apply that same level of creativity this time around. Though I'll be the first to flame the hell out of this forum (and possibly get banned) if the finished product sucks... but I'm betting it won’t.
Keep doing what you're doing on the development front, but your message management strategy could do with a few tweaks IMO.
DING.
Seconded.
"NS2 has invited you to learn new strategies and in turn creating new experiences."
NS2 is that I have to give a new feel to explore their motivation to play.
Sorry for the google translator. xD
+1
+1
+1