Well, yeah! You should ask/talk to real soldiers about movements, so the actor will do a better performance. I have played Crysis, and you find a lot of this in that game (don't know if they actually used motion-capturing). All the movements are what looks right, including face gestures, and makes the experience a lot better. You really get immerse in the history and the feeling of the character you are playing.
And of course, this is especially beneficial for the female character for NS2. As a female don't move the same way a male moves, you need to make this with a female actor too.
I will love to see a behind the scene of the motion-capturing sessions.
Awesome post, I love reading 'behind the scenes' stuff like this. I imagine it keeps people involved, too :)
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations. I'm aware that it will not generate force in strictly one way as when firing a real gun (getting the weight moving will have its consequences) but it might look similar.
Or maybe it should be like a buffed up paintball gun. Without the ammo, because the mo-cap studio wouldn't like that :p
<!--quoteo(post=1725128:date=Aug 26 2009, 04:39 PM:name=savage^)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savage^ @ Aug 26 2009, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awesome post, I love reading 'behind the scenes' stuff like this. I imagine it keeps people involved, too :)
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They actually do have this technology, being a Marine, We use it to simulate rounds going down range for target practice, no rounds are fired but the air simulates a round being fired, the gun is essentially a light gun , for like time crisis or house of the dead. But it is an actual Machine Gun or Rifle. We use this to get a decent estimate of one's firing skills. I'm sure you could easily paint it green and use it for MoCap. But getting your hands on something like that would be most likely be crazy expensive. I think you should Talk to marines. I would be willing to send you Some video clips of me clearing rooms. granted i wouldn't have an actual rifle but I could put on my gear kevlar anything you need, So you could at least have a framework for your idea. Or even something to show your actor so he gets the right idea.
on another topic, So you know Jumping isn't hard with a full combat load, granted you dont just go hopping around the battlefield. Small hops or leaps are possible, they just suck, and and dont see any way of possibly firing accuratly while doing. ( dont want to try). I think you should still have jumping but it should be limited by the ability to fire very inaccurately or not at all.
Let me know if your interested. E-mail me or message me here I check them periodically when I have time.
P.S. I love your game, and this one looks to be a very well designed game, You guys are doing great keep it up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ya, tell him to belly slide in a gorge suit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
--------------------------
Will we be finding out what weapons ARE in the game before or after the Mo-Cap Actor does?
<!--quoteo(post=1725149:date=Aug 26 2009, 08:09 PM:name=FallenWulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FallenWulf @ Aug 26 2009, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They actually do have this technology, being a Marine, We use it to simulate rounds going down range for target practice, no rounds are fired but the air simulates a round being fired, the gun is essentially a light gun , for like time crisis or house of the dead. But it is an actual Machine Gun or Rifle. We use this to get a decent estimate of one's firing skills. I'm sure you could easily paint it green and use it for MoCap. But getting your hands on something like that would be most likely be crazy expensive. I think you should Talk to marines. I would be willing to send you Some video clips of me clearing rooms. granted i wouldn't have an actual rifle but I could put on my gear kevlar anything you need, So you could at least have a framework for your idea. Or even something to show your actor so he gets the right idea.
on another topic, So you know Jumping isn't hard with a full combat load, granted you dont just go hopping around the battlefield. Small hops or leaps are possible, they just suck, and and dont see any way of possibly firing accuratly while doing. ( dont want to try). I think you should still have jumping but it should be limited by the ability to fire very inaccurately or not at all.
Let me know if your interested. E-mail me or message me here I check them periodically when I have time.
P.S. I love your game, and this one looks to be a very well designed game, You guys are doing great keep it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get your butt out there and do the motion capture! :P
/on topic
Cool read, guys. +1 to video taping part of the mocap session, especially comparing the video footage to the finished animation!
<!--quoteo(post=1725128:date=Aug 26 2009, 04:39 PM:name=savage^)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savage^ @ Aug 26 2009, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awesome post, I love reading 'behind the scenes' stuff like this. I imagine it keeps people involved, too :)
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations. I'm aware that it will not generate force in strictly one way as when firing a real gun (getting the weight moving will have its consequences) but it might look similar.
Or maybe it should be like a buffed up paintball gun. Without the ammo, because the mo-cap studio wouldn't like that :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Airsoft Gas blow back replicas (from assault rifles to pistols) simulate the recoil effect but the kick is obviously alot less substantial and alot more controlable than the real thing so it wouldnt really be practical for what they need, but on the other hand i'm guessing it could help give more realistic actions from the mocap actor when holding and moving with it given the realistic weight and dimentions.
I would have liked to see you guys animate the characters fully. I appreciate that You have chosen it for the fair reason that you are a small dev team and it's potential time saving. It's also worth keeping in mind that a mo capped animation is by deffinition more realistic.
The thing is though that in my experience it can take more time to get a finished bit of mo capped animation. You have to do a lot of clean up work in terms of the captured data. Then you have to pull and streatch and tweak to get the animation to work with a good sense of weight and timing. I mean look at Robert Zemeckis films with all of their millions to spend on the tech to mocap and it still looks cumbersom and awkward to me
You said it yourself. It's not a case of if it is right but rather that it looks right. That being the case you have to consider doing a pass on the animation to remove any sense of the uncanny in the movement and you can only do that one of two ways. Make the animation less realistic? or make it perfect and a flawless representation of the real world? The better option there in my opinion is to make it less realistic to add dymanism and weight where there wasn't any recorded. At which point I find you might as well have animated from the beginning anyway and chase the dynamism and weighting from the start.
I do agree that actors, good actors add a lot to a character. But keeping this in mind I consider good character animators to be just as good at acting as the actors. They are doing the exact same job. One acts on a stage the other acts on paper or with a computer. Just look at the TF2 vids or any Pixar film to see the kind of animator driven performances you can get when you really get into a character(something I believe the animators for NS2 do by the way. just look at the gorgey!) The bonus is animators know what you can do in animation so they will push the performance much further then an actor could.
As I say though this is just from my experience. It's also worth noting I am more used to working in the realm of animated film so of course there are a lot differences. I'm also not saying don't use mocap because I have seen many games use it well (most recently dead space was quite impressive) and I also trust this team in terms of the quality of work they produce and the animation i've seen so far.
This is just my take and I wonder if the team has any more indepth thoughts on animation VS mocap in the game production pipeline?
i would have to agree with the fact that your idea of a few pounds of weight for one person may be different from another.. I think if you guys are going to focus on weight so much you might want to put more thought into the idea of classes of weight. For most marines in the field they have trained so much that the extra baggage is only a problem after a few meters. If you are going for realism then do so. If you are going for something else...do so.
If you are wanting to sit on what you have could you please give direct examples of where weapons are going to be located. Your motion capturing will reflect that instead of giving vague descriptions.
i know you gave a few but ...solid...where
gun in hand?
gun on hip?
grenades where?
how much weight in each position?
marines train for this so what would be unusually difficult for you, would not be difficult for me. Training training training.
You say the word guys and i will bring out 6 real soldiers\ to San Fran ready to do some work. I am pretty sure the experience would be more than enough for us.
man you guys could add so much more with character leveling and experience...Training maps to level up marines....the options are endless...
not only could you hit the fps meets commander genres but you could hit adding weapons abilities, all the things that make people continue to play...not that you don't already but ...damn.
I know allot of actual marines that would be willing to head to a studio and take on what you want to achieve. For more realism of the game you need real mechanics.
Comments
You should ask/talk to real soldiers about movements, so the actor will do a better performance.
I have played Crysis, and you find a lot of this in that game (don't know if they actually used motion-capturing). All the movements are what looks right, including face gestures, and makes the experience a lot better. You really get immerse in the history and the feeling of the character you are playing.
And of course, this is especially beneficial for the female character for NS2. As a female don't move the same way a male moves, you need to make this with a female actor too.
I will love to see a behind the scene of the motion-capturing sessions.
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations.
I'm aware that it will not generate force in strictly one way as when firing a real gun (getting the weight moving will have its consequences) but it might look similar.
Or maybe it should be like a buffed up paintball gun. Without the ammo, because the mo-cap studio wouldn't like that :p
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They actually do have this technology, being a Marine, We use it to simulate rounds going down range for target practice, no rounds are fired but the air simulates a round being fired, the gun is essentially a light gun , for like time crisis or house of the dead. But it is an actual Machine Gun or Rifle. We use this to get a decent estimate of one's firing skills. I'm sure you could easily paint it green and use it for MoCap. But getting your hands on something like that would be most likely be crazy expensive. I think you should Talk to marines. I would be willing to send you Some video clips of me clearing rooms. granted i wouldn't have an actual rifle but I could put on my gear kevlar anything you need, So you could at least have a framework for your idea. Or even something to show your actor so he gets the right idea.
on another topic, So you know Jumping isn't hard with a full combat load, granted you dont just go hopping around the battlefield. Small hops or leaps are possible, they just suck, and and dont see any way of possibly firing accuratly while doing. ( dont want to try). I think you should still have jumping but it should be limited by the ability to fire very inaccurately or not at all.
Let me know if your interested. E-mail me or message me here I check them periodically when I have time.
P.S. I love your game, and this one looks to be a very well designed game, You guys are doing great keep it up.
+1
--------------------------
Will we be finding out what weapons ARE in the game before or after the Mo-Cap Actor does?
on another topic, So you know Jumping isn't hard with a full combat load, granted you dont just go hopping around the battlefield. Small hops or leaps are possible, they just suck, and and dont see any way of possibly firing accuratly while doing. ( dont want to try). I think you should still have jumping but it should be limited by the ability to fire very inaccurately or not at all.
Let me know if your interested. E-mail me or message me here I check them periodically when I have time.
P.S. I love your game, and this one looks to be a very well designed game, You guys are doing great keep it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get your butt out there and do the motion capture! :P
/on topic
Cool read, guys. +1 to video taping part of the mocap session, especially comparing the video footage to the finished animation!
Have the devs found a mocap actor yet? If not, it might be a good idea to take it directly to the source.
Thanks for the update tho its good to read whats been worked on
Someone should create an air-pressure powered gun that simulates recoil. A gun model with a moving weight inside might work nicely for single shot animations.
I'm aware that it will not generate force in strictly one way as when firing a real gun (getting the weight moving will have its consequences) but it might look similar.
Or maybe it should be like a buffed up paintball gun. Without the ammo, because the mo-cap studio wouldn't like that :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Airsoft Gas blow back replicas (from assault rifles to pistols) simulate the recoil effect but the kick is obviously alot less substantial and alot more controlable than the real thing so it wouldnt really be practical for what they need, but on the other hand i'm guessing it could help give more realistic actions from the mocap actor when holding and moving with it given the realistic weight and dimentions.
The thing is though that in my experience it can take more time to get a finished bit of mo capped animation. You have to do a lot of clean up work in terms of the captured data. Then you have to pull and streatch and tweak to get the animation to work with a good sense of weight and timing. I mean look at Robert Zemeckis films with all of their millions to spend on the tech to mocap and it still looks cumbersom and awkward to me
You said it yourself. It's not a case of if it is right but rather that it looks right. That being the case you have to consider doing a pass on the animation to remove any sense of the uncanny in the movement and you can only do that one of two ways. Make the animation less realistic? or make it perfect and a flawless representation of the real world? The better option there in my opinion is to make it less realistic to add dymanism and weight where there wasn't any recorded. At which point I find you might as well have animated from the beginning anyway and chase the dynamism and weighting from the start.
I do agree that actors, good actors add a lot to a character. But keeping this in mind I consider good character animators to be just as good at acting as the actors. They are doing the exact same job. One acts on a stage the other acts on paper or with a computer. Just look at the TF2 vids or any Pixar film to see the kind of animator driven performances you can get when you really get into a character(something I believe the animators for NS2 do by the way. just look at the gorgey!) The bonus is animators know what you can do in animation so they will push the performance much further then an actor could.
As I say though this is just from my experience. It's also worth noting I am more used to working in the realm of animated film so of course there are a lot differences. I'm also not saying don't use mocap because I have seen many games use it well (most recently dead space was quite impressive) and I also trust this team in terms of the quality of work they produce and the animation i've seen so far.
This is just my take and I wonder if the team has any more indepth thoughts on animation VS mocap in the game production pipeline?
If you are wanting to sit on what you have could you please give direct examples of where weapons are going to be located. Your motion capturing will reflect that instead of giving vague descriptions.
i know you gave a few but ...solid...where
gun in hand?
gun on hip?
grenades where?
how much weight in each position?
marines train for this so what would be unusually difficult for you, would not be difficult for me. Training training training.
You say the word guys and i will bring out 6 real soldiers\ to San Fran ready to do some work. I am pretty sure the experience would be more than enough for us.
man you guys could add so much more with character leveling and experience...Training maps to level up marines....the options are endless...
not only could you hit the fps meets commander genres but you could hit adding weapons abilities, all the things that make people continue to play...not that you don't already but ...damn.
I know allot of actual marines that would be willing to head to a studio and take on what you want to achieve. For more realism of the game you need real mechanics.