Organized NS

homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
edited November 2009 in NS2 E-Team
I am hoping to develop a website and plugin that facilitates organized NS2 games through pick-up-games, scrims, and matches. The primary goal is to reduce the overhead associated organizing private games and make it accessible for casual players by removing the need to download or monitor additional software.
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- Servers running the plugin are automatically registered with the central ONS database
- Registered players get reserved slots in public ONS servers
- Allows servers to verify player identity for pugs, scrims, and matches
- Central server keeps track of player pug, scrim, and match record
- Registered players can communicate across all servers and read real-time announcements
- Registered players can create, view, and join pick-up-games without ever leaving the game
- All players in public games are notified when a pick-up-game has started
- Once enough players have joined the pick-up-game they are automatically transferred to an automated private server
- Private servers running the plugin can be reserved for pick-up-games, scrims, or matches by registered teams
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I am looking for people interested in working on this project (programmers) or people planning on running servers when NS2 is released.
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Comments

  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    ENSL tries to organise at least gathers through the website. You might want to talk to jiriki about it and see if you can help each other in the implementation.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    Cool idea, what are you thinking of using for the pickupgame browser? Steam Group, IRC, standalone app, something else?
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1728208:date=Sep 21 2009, 07:09 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 21 2009, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1728208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cool idea, what are you thinking of using for the pickupgame browser? Steam Group, IRC, standalone app, something else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Players will have two options:

    1) The website

    2) In-game GUI

    Depending on the power we have in LUA (which is promised to be vast) I am hoping I can make an in-game GUI client-side using a server plugin. The game server would then communicate with a central server (the website and mysql database).

    I am considering using HTTP requests from the server side LUA plugin to the central web server to fetch xml data.

    However, this might have too much overhead if we want to have "chat". I considered using a continuous low level socket connection between the game servers and the central server. This would require me to write my own custom server, I was thinking Java based.

    The method of using HTTP requests to send and receive xml data seems like the most flexible option and by far the easiest. This works well for most of the plugin features. It would also parallel the website backend and cut down on development time. So thats still my plan thus far.

    Still looking for suggestions if anyone has a better method.
  • Caedus SaevireCaedus Saevire Join Date: 2009-07-18 Member: 68181Members
    I'd advice you to keep it simple and wait with releasing it untill you are comfortable with the state of the site/plugin/program.

    There are different paths to take in this matter.

    Dedicated program - not prefered. You'll need to constantly update it, make sure distributions get to people, version mismatches, high maintenance, etc. Another con is the possibility of dodgy programs and peoples paranoia in that regard (warden anyone?).
    Plugin - Easiest in usability for the players. However, every feature will have to be defined and perfected. This again is high maintenance. Plus you can't really get started untill you get your hands on an alpha or beta-build. Pros will be that the integration could be seamless, providing an in-game experience. No external load on any server if you can use steam/steamcommunity/steamworks API's.
    Server-side (website) - prefered. Instead of providing a fully integrated experience, you can provide an environment in which users can meet and then set up the game themselves. By using game and voip clients launch syntaxes, you could simply provide a checklist for people in the gather. ESL has a nice system in place that closest matches my description. Another pro would be the guiding of traffic to the site itself. Cons would be the rent and load on the server.

    Its just a matter of how deep you are willing to go and how much stock you put in binding players to a community or integration into the game.
  • steppin'razorsteppin'razor Join Date: 2008-09-18 Member: 65033Members, Constellation
    Just my two cents, I've always found IRC the best way to oraganise pugs.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1731002:date=Oct 6 2009, 05:46 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Oct 6 2009, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1731002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just my two cents, I've always found IRC the best way to oraganise pugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agreed, except it is not noob friendly. They have to download special software, know how and what server to join, know how and what channel to join.
  • OpprobriousOpprobrious Join Date: 2008-11-17 Member: 65483Members
    homicide, come over to evolvens.com and post this idea on our forums.

    I'm sure we would be interested.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    Slowly working on this project here <a href="http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/home/" target="_blank">http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/</a>
  • RikkAndrsnRikkAndrsn Join Date: 2009-06-07 Member: 67741Members
    With CAL's death, what league do you think will pick up NS2? TWL is usually an early mover but it's considered an entry to mid level league. CEVO seems like it would be the place to look, with ESEA being a much longer shot. ECO is fairly new and they might want to be an early mover to gain an audience considering they haven't done too well. I'm interested on your take in it since the league you held a position for has essentially decided to focus on Asian and European coverage.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735466:date=Nov 1 2009, 09:56 PM:name=RikkAndrsn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RikkAndrsn @ Nov 1 2009, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With CAL's death, what league do you think will pick up NS2? TWL is usually an early mover but it's considered an entry to mid level league. CEVO seems like it would be the place to look, with ESEA being a much longer shot. ECO is fairly new and they might want to be an early mover to gain an audience considering they haven't done too well. I'm interested on your take in it since the league you held a position for has essentially decided to focus on Asian and European coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I doubt CEVO will pick up NS2; they seem to support only a few extremely popular games.

    Given that NS2 will be running its own engine and its no longer free I doubt it will have the same community overlap that NS1 had with TFC and CS. I suspect much of the NS2 scene will look to NS specific community sites. Europe has ensl.org and Australia/Asia has nsplayer.net. I imagine they will start NS2 leagues and have a good foundation of dedicated players moving over from NS1. A few people have mentioned the possibility of nsplayer.net branching out to the US community for NS2. There is certainly no longer an obvious home for a competitive US community like CAL. Basically, I have no idea, but I am hoping to support whatever site picks up a competitive US scene.
  • RikkAndrsnRikkAndrsn Join Date: 2009-06-07 Member: 67741Members
    I really hope competitive NS2 doesn't find its general NA home on GotFrag. That took a huge toll on the TF2 community, along with the lack of good centralization. Considering NS2 will probably have an even smaller competitive base than TF2, it's pretty crucial for some centralization to occur.
  • LeonLeon Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58131Members
    It will, but I'm sure it will be homegrown/grassroots. We had ANSL run for 2 or 3 seasons after CAL died but eventually it petered out.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    Is there a reason why American efforts at own-run leagues never seem to do well? Euros have managed to maintain ENSL for 13 seasons and ETF2L is similarly a centralised league that seems to be doing really well.
  • LeonLeon Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58131Members
    Leadership issues mostly. ANSL was ran by an individual who was not very hands on, chose bad subordinate admins, suffered bouts of inactivity and generally no one took him seriously. Especially after a speedhacking incident in a playoff match where no one was punished (for fear the league would die, lol). The EvolveNS league was set up and managed by Serge, epic fail facepalm.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    edited January 2010
    Nice idea about automation but unless heavy client-side coding is possible and allowed, we have to wait for UWE to do this. I'd hope for L4D-type lobby-based system though.

    We already have ENSL for European players. If you are interested in developing an american side for our website, go ahead. I'm ready to give any decent (dedicated, fair and reputable) person full rights to organize a competitive community for NS for the people over the pond. When I made the website, I really wanted to automize as much as I could, which means that I hope I can make it as easy as possible with NS2 (with NS1 I have <a href="http://www.ensl.org/rounds/5749" target="_blank">per-round statistics</a>).

    About pick-up games, you should check out our website-based <a href="http://www.ensl.org/gather" target="_blank">gather</a> system. There you only have to click and steam will autoconnect to the server. You have to join the voice com manually though. We have ENSL plugin which uses HTTP to connect to Apache HTTP server to fetch player data but this is not necessary for pick-up games.

    Web is the future, IRC is too oldschool for pick-up games.
  • PipiPipi Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69550Members
    I demand random pug with massive bhopping in the readyroom until everyone has joined the game and some noobs type ready on both teams while none are actually ready ! .. or were we?

    Good ol' days.

    :D
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
    The project page is down. If you put up some preliminary info/source I'd be willing to pitch in some C/C++/Java/JScript/PHP help, or LUA if/when I get around to pickin git up.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I think Jiriki makes an excellent point about the need for either a strong client side API or a UWE developed server browser framework.

    IMO, if they are short in time, they would be wise to implement the client side API and allow the community to develop something good that they can then incorporate into the game. Just as the game can incorporate the best community maps, it could also incorporate the best community client side interfaces, whether they are HUDs, configuration interfaces or server browsers.

    For example, NS never had a config-per-class system even though it was often asked for. With a simple system for constructing interface components etc anyone with half a clue could build such a system.

    If you look at WOW today and how it has, over time, incorporated several of the most popular plugins into its core feature set ( most prominent being questhelper-like features ), I think this approach makes sense.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    Just spotted this quote in an interview with Robin Walker of TF2 dev fame:

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->eXtine: Speaking of Left 4 Dead, L4D2 utilizes a lobby system for joining games and this feature was mentioned as possibly making its way into TF2. What are your thoughts on a 6v6 lobby system in TF2 and the status of any sort of implementation?

    Robin: The guys behind the L4D2 matchmaking system are working on broadening it out into generalized steam matchmaking. Once they have it figured out, we'll look at how it'd fit into TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <a href="http://communityfortress.com/tf2/news/robin-walker-on-competitive-tf2-and-future-updates.php" target="_blank">Interview here.</a>

    Hopefully it will work with all steamworks games?
  • steppin'razorsteppin'razor Join Date: 2008-09-18 Member: 65033Members, Constellation
    I don't own L4D2, can you give me the short skinny of what it would be?
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1757194:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:19 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Mar 5 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't own L4D2, can you give me the short skinny of what it would be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't have L4D2 but I've played L4D1 and they've basically made it so you can click a join game button for your chosen map and it will automatically put you into a Warcraft3 custom map style lobby where you can pick teams etc. You can also make a game with any number of friends and then let it place random people to make up numbers. I think there might be an option for your team of 4 to play against another random team of 4 as well so you don't just get randoms all the time.
  • Voyager IVoyager I Join Date: 2009-11-02 Member: 69222Members
    I think TF2's community did it near-perfectly with <a href="http://www.tf2lobby.com" target="_blank">TF2lobby</a>.

    You might be able to make things even smoother with closer dev support, but short of having something built into the game this seems like an idea solution.
  • N_3N_3 &#092;o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Members, Constellation
    The L4D game finding system is horrible, browsers are much better. It really helps to see things like ping (or region) and number of players before joining a game. You probably won't need lobbies for pugs, just mark a server in pug mode and wait for players/organize everything in the readyroom. A specific plugin running on these servers (and possibly interfacing with a client side gui plugin) could facilitate games; e.g. stopping people joining teams before the game is ready, randomly choosing teams once 12 join or starting a captains system, letting a map be voted etc.

    Also, an IRC gui plugin might be handy (autojoins a specific channel) - especially for getting newer players into organized games and clans.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1759800:date=Mar 18 2010, 05:27 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (N_3 @ Mar 18 2010, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, an IRC gui plugin might be handy (autojoins a specific channel) - especially for getting newer players into organized games and clans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Beware that plenty of noobs don't understand this whole IRC thingy.....

    It took me a while to figure out that if I wanted to play at a more competitive level, that's where I had to go. And then there was figuring out IRC for the first time. and figuring out the IRC interface people had built....

    Suffice to say while nice and easy (yay command lines in general) it's got quite the initial learning curve for the uninitiated.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    edited March 2010
    I think server-browsers are essential but Lobby-system to create 6vs6 games could add so much (especially with automated skill-balancing) to the game because it could auto-balance the teams, which is the main source of problems of NS1.

    Why do one system when you can have two at twice the price (kudos to anyone who knows where that's from).
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
    edited March 2010
    You don't need a lobby system for that, this could have easily been fixed in NS by having one team portal only: "Random". The only use for a lobby is perhaps skill-matching, but that would require stats tracking which never does a good job of actually determining skill, instead just encouraging stathoaring.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    Gauging skill would be really hard in a game like this. I like to look at Hero's of Newerth, a DOTA clone in beta, that uses what they call "Public Skill Rating" or PSR for short. Basically if your team wins a match your PSR goes up and if your team loses a match your PSR goes down. This system is far too simple and is no one way an accurate way to judge player skill.

    Player stats would probably be better for a game like NS2 but that still leaves the system open for exploitation and could cause the games to be nothing more than people watching their K/D.

    The other option I can think of is a system where your teammates vote on your performance. Clearly this could be exploited with friends constantly up voting themselves or a random cool guy down voting everyone.

    An option that combined all three of the above ideas would be the most ideal but also extremely complex.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1760288:date=Mar 20 2010, 04:20 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 20 2010, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other option I can think of is a system where your teammates vote on your performance. Clearly this could be exploited with friends constantly up voting themselves or a random cool guy down voting everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's also not particularly nice being a scapegoat. For example drag a terrible team to near victory as a commander and you might still get blamed for the loss. Obviously comms make mistakes too and sometimes deserve the blame, but way too often it's also the team creating scapegoats.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1760283:date=Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 20 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need a lobby system for that, this could have easily been fixed in NS by having one team portal only: "Random". The only use for a lobby is perhaps skill-matching, but that would require stats tracking which never does a good job of actually determining skill, instead just encouraging stathoaring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wrong. Maybe if you do something like KPD but there's something a lot more sophisticated. Its called Microsoft's <a href="http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/" target="_blank">Trueskill</a>. It uses Bayesian probability mathematics to calculate how much a player increases the victory likelihood of the team. It has a lot better convergence properties than ELO meaning it learns player's skill a lot faster (after a few games) because of the distribution area σ stored for every player. MS uses this on xBox to make sure most of the games will be balanced.

    L4D's system is great for casual gaming, all it needs is some kind of a filter so I don't end up on same random server with extra bull######.

    Its hard to get servers full with random enforcement, and also the problem with dedicated public servers is it requires people to join up and play for an hour to get it running. I've personally witnessed many servers dying because those people couldn't be arsed anymore. This is a game theoretical problem easily fixable with proper match-making system.
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
    LOL, Microsoft is never the answer to anything gaming.
    I'm well versed in Bayesian networks and if you think for a minute this won't be abused within an inch of farcicality you're deceiving yourself. Abuse of Bayesian networks is as obvious as people who abuse relevancy measures when they mark an article as irrelevant simply because it did not solve their problem. Thus it's measure of relevancy is severely skewed by an incompetent userbase.

    Statistics are not the answer, lobbies are not the answer, anything that can be easily abused is not the answer. Random assignment is the only unabusable answer.,
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