locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1730733:date=Oct 4 2009, 09:21 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 4 2009, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you have a source that actually says the color correction values were specifically tailored for this shot?
They would need the color grading step in their engine, not just for this scene, or the atmosphere effects would make everything washed out. As a result, I don't think that it was specifically tailored for this scene, but instead is just part of their rendering pipeline. I also imagine the same color correction curve would work throughout the game as the lighting will always be calculated the same way, which is also why I don't think it is specific to this scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think so. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading" target="_blank">Color grading</a> seems to be used in art programs, but I don't see any mention of it being used as a shader in games. Maybe Max is doing it real-time, I don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1730805:date=Oct 5 2009, 01:40 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 5 2009, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think so. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading" target="_blank">Color grading</a> seems to be used in art programs, but I don't see any mention of it being used as a shader in games. Maybe Max is doing it real-time, I don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fairly basic effect in HL2, it was one of the first introduced, before HDR even as far as I know.
It's also really groovy, comes with an ingame UI in a rare instance of a very effective set of valve tools with few bugs.
Seems to do everything in your link, changing colours in a scene, global shifts, masking to specific colour ranges, the works.
You can also fade between multiple sets of CC depending on your position in the world, it really should be used more in levels but I just never seem to get around to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1730744:date=Oct 5 2009, 12:35 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 5 2009, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So much layers! I'm gonna have a hard time making custom textures... Oh how I love difficulty!! makes thing so much more worth it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the layers are mostly for the materials, if you want to make a skin you can simply edit the texture file I believe is in .PSD format (according to a previous development video). Since this is Photoshop's default format it should be easy to change stuff around, if you want to edit the normal maps then it might be a little trickier though.
The rendering engine seems laggy. Hardcore. Huge poly geometry, I can't imagine a large amount of characters interacting, I guess I'll get 10 fps. Why did you use triangles instead quads?
<!--quoteo(post=1730818:date=Oct 5 2009, 09:04 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Oct 5 2009, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rendering engine seems laggy. Hardcore. Huge poly geometry, I can't imagine a large amount of characters interacting, I guess I'll get 10 fps. Why did you use triangles instead quads?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The characters are mostly likely modeled with quads, but graphics hardware is only capable of rendering triangles, so everything gets turn into triangles. And even though these characters look really detailed, they actually have fewer polygons than the Team Fortress 2 characters
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1730818:date=Oct 5 2009, 08:04 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Oct 5 2009, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rendering engine seems laggy. Hardcore. Huge poly geometry, I can't imagine a large amount of characters interacting, I guess I'll get 10 fps. Why did you use triangles instead quads?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quads are just two triangles next to each other (so nothing gets sped up by using them). Triangles are better because you can't create an invalid triangle as 3 points define a plane. 4 points might not, and so you can get some really ugly behavior with quads.
Also, these aren't that high-poly. TF2 characters are around 15,000 polys (average of 14868, median of 15250... heavy 14376, medic 16576, scout 15628, sniper 13268, spy 10720, soldier 16620, engie 14872, demo 16884).
TF2 also has way more steps in the rendering pipeline than you may expect... <img src="http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/98668/tf2_rendering.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <a href="http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2007/NPAR07_IllustrativeRenderingInTeamFortress2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/...amFortress2.pdf</a>
If you can run TF2 with a good frame rate, I wouldn't be too worried.
edit: Aw damn, Max posted while I was going and using the HL Model Viewer to figure out poly counts. :(
whew exciting. the engine looks promising with alot of modern tech.
I just built a new system and wait with anticipation for the tools release.
keep cranking unknown (worlds) I see alot of promise and I have proof that you deliver. I saw alot of promise in NS1 and that delivered. now I have to wait patiently.
<!--quoteo(post=1730733:date=Oct 5 2009, 02:21 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 5 2009, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you have a source that actually says the color correction values were specifically tailored for this shot?
They would need the color grading step in their engine, not just for this scene, or the atmosphere effects would make everything washed out. As a result, I don't think that it was specifically tailored for this scene, but instead is just part of their rendering pipeline. I also imagine the same color correction curve would work throughout the game as the lighting will always be calculated the same way, which is also why I don't think it is specific to this scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The way I have seen colour correction done is in the Source engine, where you tweak lighting for particular areas of a level. E.g. you might want a certain section to be warm, another cold and so on. So you do your initial lighting pass and then tweak the colour tones for a defined physical area of a level. [Edit] I notice someone has already provided the Valve Dev wiki link.
In theatre/film it's done by applying gels to (essentially coloured films) to light sources. Again, this is done on a scene by scene or locational basis. I'm sure more modern digital post-processing will tweak this further still.
So as far as I understand it the shots demonstrate colour correction as a supported feature, and this scene is an example of how this can be implemented to give a desired effect. The other possibility is that the colour correction shown is more of a filter on all light (regardless of origin) hitting the surface of the model to tailor it to a narrow spectrum. If it is I'm all the more interested.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1730876:date=Oct 5 2009, 03:03 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Oct 5 2009, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other possibility is that the colour correction shown is more of a filter on all light (regardless of origin) hitting the surface of the model to tailor it to a narrow spectrum. If it is I'm all the more interested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems like this would be the case, to me. The effect looks identical to the results you would get with a color curve adjustment in Photoshop; which I imagine would be very simple to implement in real-time as a pixel shader. Without this step the atmosphere pass completely washes out everything, so I can't imagine that the game would require the curve to be defined in a scene by scene basis. Having a default curve does not negate the possibility of a scene by scene adjustment, though. I imagine that such a feature would be implemented as a second pass. The mapper could define their own color curve adjustment to achieve the desired result, but it would build on the default curve rather than replace it (as the default curve seems essential to the game's "look"). In terms of the pixel shader, the curves could probably be combined prior to rendering and then done in one pass rather than two.
I am quite curious what the actual story is on this. Hopefully we get Max back in here for comment! :)
<!--quoteo(post=1730826:date=Oct 5 2009, 11:40 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 5 2009, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: Aw damn, Max posted while I was going and using the HL Model Viewer to figure out poly counts. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no worries, your post was pretty awesome. I was also trying to tell people (in the 1st page) that these effects are nothing to be that scared of regarding minimum requirements. It seems on par with Source as far as number of effects, but it's still a different mix of them. I particularly like the atmospheric effect and the fact that they are doing lighting the "real way" with specular shadows (is that the right name for it?) being cast on real time.
EDIT: Also the fact that NS2 it looking so nice, is also due to good art direction and not that you'll need an uber computer for it..
You have done a nice job creating the atmospheric experience that Natural Selection always promised. It looks like you are doing fantastic work, and as always I am in Awe.
Well done guys, Natural Selection 2 is going to be a huge hit.
Comments
They would need the color grading step in their engine, not just for this scene, or the atmosphere effects would make everything washed out. As a result, I don't think that it was specifically tailored for this scene, but instead is just part of their rendering pipeline. I also imagine the same color correction curve would work throughout the game as the lighting will always be calculated the same way, which is also why I don't think it is specific to this scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading" target="_blank">Color grading</a> seems to be used in art programs, but I don't see any mention of it being used as a shader in games. Maybe Max is doing it real-time, I don't know.
It's a fairly basic effect in HL2, it was one of the first introduced, before HDR even as far as I know.
It's also really groovy, comes with an ingame UI in a rare instance of a very effective set of valve tools with few bugs.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Color_correction" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Color_correction</a>
Seems to do everything in your link, changing colours in a scene, global shifts, masking to specific colour ranges, the works.
You can also fade between multiple sets of CC depending on your position in the world, it really should be used more in levels but I just never seem to get around to it.
Well, the layers are mostly for the materials, if you want to make a skin you can simply edit the texture file I believe is in .PSD format (according to a previous development video).
Since this is Photoshop's default format it should be easy to change stuff around, if you want to edit the normal maps then it might be a little trickier though.
The characters are mostly likely modeled with quads, but graphics hardware is only capable of rendering triangles, so everything gets turn into triangles. And even though these characters look really detailed, they actually have fewer polygons than the Team Fortress 2 characters
Quads are just two triangles next to each other (so nothing gets sped up by using them).
Triangles are better because you can't create an invalid triangle as 3 points define a plane. 4 points might not, and so you can get some really ugly behavior with quads.
Also, these aren't that high-poly. TF2 characters are around 15,000 polys (average of 14868, median of 15250... heavy 14376, medic 16576, scout 15628, sniper 13268, spy 10720, soldier 16620, engie 14872, demo 16884).
TF2 also has way more steps in the rendering pipeline than you may expect...
<img src="http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/98668/tf2_rendering.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2007/NPAR07_IllustrativeRenderingInTeamFortress2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/...amFortress2.pdf</a>
If you can run TF2 with a good frame rate, I wouldn't be too worried.
edit: Aw damn, Max posted while I was going and using the HL Model Viewer to figure out poly counts. :(
the engine looks promising with alot of modern tech.
I just built a new system and wait with anticipation
for the tools release.
keep cranking unknown (worlds)
I see alot of promise and I have proof that you deliver.
I saw alot of promise in NS1 and that delivered.
now I have to wait patiently.
peace out.
They would need the color grading step in their engine, not just for this scene, or the atmosphere effects would make everything washed out. As a result, I don't think that it was specifically tailored for this scene, but instead is just part of their rendering pipeline. I also imagine the same color correction curve would work throughout the game as the lighting will always be calculated the same way, which is also why I don't think it is specific to this scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The way I have seen colour correction done is in the Source engine, where you tweak lighting for particular areas of a level. E.g. you might want a certain section to be warm, another cold and so on. So you do your initial lighting pass and then tweak the colour tones for a defined physical area of a level. [Edit] I notice someone has already provided the Valve Dev wiki link.
In theatre/film it's done by applying gels to (essentially coloured films) to light sources. Again, this is done on a scene by scene or locational basis. I'm sure more modern digital post-processing will tweak this further still.
So as far as I understand it the shots demonstrate colour correction as a supported feature, and this scene is an example of how this can be implemented to give a desired effect. The other possibility is that the colour correction shown is more of a filter on all light (regardless of origin) hitting the surface of the model to tailor it to a narrow spectrum. If it is I'm all the more interested.
It seems like this would be the case, to me. The effect looks identical to the results you would get with a color curve adjustment in Photoshop; which I imagine would be very simple to implement in real-time as a pixel shader.
Without this step the atmosphere pass completely washes out everything, so I can't imagine that the game would require the curve to be defined in a scene by scene basis. Having a default curve does not negate the possibility of a scene by scene adjustment, though. I imagine that such a feature would be implemented as a second pass. The mapper could define their own color curve adjustment to achieve the desired result, but it would build on the default curve rather than replace it (as the default curve seems essential to the game's "look").
In terms of the pixel shader, the curves could probably be combined prior to rendering and then done in one pass rather than two.
I am quite curious what the actual story is on this. Hopefully we get Max back in here for comment! :)
edit: Cleaning up.
no worries, your post was pretty awesome. I was also trying to tell people (in the 1st page) that these effects are nothing to be that scared of regarding minimum requirements. It seems on par with Source as far as number of effects, but it's still a different mix of them. I particularly like the atmospheric effect and the fact that they are doing lighting the "real way" with specular shadows (is that the right name for it?) being cast on real time.
EDIT: Also the fact that NS2 it looking so nice, is also due to good art direction and not that you'll need an uber computer for it..
Well done guys, Natural Selection 2 is going to be a huge hit.