Water in Natural Selection II

whoppaXXL

I wonder if there is any possibility to make water areas in maps. And how the options of the water are, like color and transparency?
Is it possible to swim in it?

It would be really nice if one could make flooded levels and other water based areas.

I know that the Dev's are making a Lava-level, but i don't know if you can equal it to water. Because in lava you can't swim.

Any Ideas?

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1730606:date=Oct 4 2009, 08:48 AM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Oct 4 2009, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if there is any possibility to make water areas in maps. And how the options of the water are, like color and transparency?
Is it possible to swim in it?

It would be really nice if one could make flooded levels and other water based areas.

I know that the Dev's are making a Lava-level, but i don't know if you can equal it to water. Because in lava you can't swim.

Any Ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would imagine there is provision for water textures, refraction textures are a pretty important effect so presumably you can make those, and that's all water is really. Reflections are a bit more specialised but most modern engines seem to support them. The game supports atmospheric volumic fogging, which is essentially how most games handle water volumes, so I would guess all the components are there.

Plus water is a useful tool in maps, it can add motion to a scene and motion hugely helps bring a level to life.

schkorpio

<!--quoteo(post=1730606:date=Oct 4 2009, 06:48 PM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Oct 4 2009, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because in lava you can't swim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
correct :)



actually would be kind of cool if the heavy armour could withstand lava for a short amount of time, say 60 seconds - you could do some interesting tactics with that

M00_cow

I have to say, i can't remember much water in natural selection, although, the prospect of a destroyed spaceship, with a few leaky pipes, and maybe a few actual leaks around the place. Maybe a room half filled with water from a broken pipe. You rush into the room, and then have to wade through the waist high water to get to the other side.

Would add another level to the game. Of course you couldn't use this everywhere, but a couple of places, might be something exciting and new, and then their is electricity!

Maybe even just a few stream of water flowing across a corridor and when you run through it you hear a splashing sound that everyone can hear? Might save you from some sneaky aliens every now and again.

Phin

It would also be rather interesting if aliens could move just as fast as on land while swimming, or perhaps even a little faster, while marines would be severely bogged down by the weight of their armour. That way you could create areas that lean more in the alien's favour without having to have vents plastered all over the place.

Now I'm getting an image of marines navigating a narrow walkway suspended over a container of water with skulks jumping out like sharks. =D

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1730631:date=Oct 4 2009, 11:51 AM:name=M00_cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M00_cow @ Oct 4 2009, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say, i can't remember much water in natural selection, although, the prospect of a destroyed spaceship, with a few leaky pipes, and maybe a few actual leaks around the place. Maybe a room half filled with water from a broken pipe. You rush into the room, and then have to wade through the waist high water to get to the other side.

Would add another level to the game. Of course you couldn't use this everywhere, but a couple of places, might be something exciting and new, and then their is electricity!

Maybe even just a few stream of water flowing across a corridor and when you run through it you hear a splashing sound that everyone can hear? Might save you from some sneaky aliens every now and again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There was that refinery level with the big water tunnel.

In NS1 there wasn't much reason to use it because it doesn't reflect/refract, so it adds little visually.

However in more modern games, it can add to a scene even if you can't enter it.

echs

Remember that scene in Aliens 4 I think it was? They had to swim under the water, with the aliens swimming close behind, that always sent a chill down my spine, it could be used to great effect here.

monopolowa

and of course certain marine weapons wouldn't work underwater

Thaldarin

Water was a pretty well used theme in NS1 so it's pretty wise to assume it will be involved in NS2 level creation.

MuYeah

I enjoyed its use in tanith and ayumi. Tanith more for the cool gameplay factor you got with hiding chambers in reactor room, the disadvantage it gave to skulks rushing from chem trans early game and the way it gave marines a little quicker fun route if they were good enough at strafejumping to the nodes at the start of the game. Ayumi it was just used to look cool in that really broken bit of corridor in the middle of the map, its a shame there were no little hidey holes to ambush from there because it could really have used it. Thinking about it the balance of areas on ayumi was really off... which is a shame I guess because it was about 80% of the way to being an awesome competitive map.

Bacillus

If there's going to be water, I'd like to see better implementation than NS had. Right now water easily becomes game breaking if it's anything more than a decoration or a slight factor in fights. See Shiva's middle hive for example: the water creates a line that neither team can cross effectively.

Triggerman

<!--quoteo(post=1730710:date=Oct 4 2009, 05:00 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 4 2009, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there's going to be water, I'd like to see better implementation than NS had. Right now water easily becomes game breaking if it's anything more than a decoration or a slight factor in fights. See Shiva's middle hive for example: the water creates a line that neither team can cross effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Indeed. It's almost so true that I wonder if they should even bother adding swimming-animations.
But yes to decorative water, it's going to add so much.

Chris0132

Bonus points if the infestation turns it cloudy and puts a scummy layer across the top or something.

M00_cow

<!--quoteo(post=1730715:date=Oct 5 2009, 09:21 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 5 2009, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bonus points if the infestation turns it cloudy and puts a scummy layer across the top or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hahaha. Swimming through infestation.

*Cleans goggles*

Click. Click. Damn infestation.

ctd

Feedwater tunnel for the underwater loveshack

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1674190:date=Mar 25 2008, 01:47 AM:name=J!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J! @ Mar 25 2008, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We may not allow water (at least say, more than an inch or two) in NS2. If NS has taught us anything it's that water causes lots of problems, and seems to be more trouble than it's worth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Old post, but the official line AFAIK.

Chris0132

Also the atmospheric lighting of NS2 would be absolutely ideal for adding pool-type nuclear reactors in levels, complete with that most awesome of all things: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation</a>

Finally modern science has a use for nuclear stuff which glows!

I can imagine this being a setting for a map, maybe even with glass tunnels through the pool with this glow all around you.

That'd be groovy.

remi

<!--quoteo(post=1730808:date=Oct 5 2009, 05:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 5 2009, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the atmospheric lighting of NS2 would be absolutely ideal for adding pool-type nuclear reactors in levels, complete with that most awesome of all things: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation</a>

Finally modern science has a use for nuclear stuff which glows!

I can imagine this being a setting for a map, maybe even with glass tunnels through the pool with this glow all around you.

That'd be groovy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have to steal this idea from you. :)

Atone

<!--quoteo(post=1730712:date=Oct 4 2009, 10:43 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Oct 4 2009, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed. It's almost so true that I wonder if they should even bother adding swimming-animations.
But yes to decorative water, it's going to add so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think it would be silly for a company that wants their game to be extremely moddable to not include swimming animations or at least the basic support for water. Just because it doesn't often see good use doesn't mean it can't see good use.

WatchMaker

I highly doubt one would be unable to swim in lava. Take the body dissolving heat out of the equation and I think it'd be entirely possible. Maybe like trying to swim through mud, but possible.

spellman23

Water as a gameplay mechanic was awesome in NS1.

It's used in quite a few maps, as well as used as a simple way to create splashing sounds when walking in it to preventing building placement in a certain area.

I strongly hope they've implemented it.

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1730819:date=Oct 5 2009, 04:04 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 5 2009, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I may have to steal this idea from you. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Feel free, if you do it well it means I don't have to.

noncomposmentis

<!--quoteo(post=1730858:date=Oct 5 2009, 02:27 PM:name=ZeroFate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZeroFate @ Oct 5 2009, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highly doubt one would be unable to swim in lava. <i><b>Take the body dissolving heat out of the equation</b></i> and I think it'd be entirely possible. Maybe like trying to swim through mud, but possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need to review your chemistry lessons!

JAmazon

<!--quoteo(post=1730913:date=Oct 6 2009, 02:41 AM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 6 2009, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to review your chemistry lessons!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm trying to figure out why anything in chemistry would say its not possible. Lava is a liquid, and thus if you could withstand the heat, you could swim in it. There's no weird chemistry or physics going on, a liquid is a liquid.

Just to be clear I thought it was a pretty bad idea. I'm just calling noncomposmentis out on the chemistry thing :P

noncomposmentis

If you take the heat out of the lava, it's solid. edit: I didn't really have to explain that, did I? :P

remi

<!--quoteo(post=1730941:date=Oct 5 2009, 09:54 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 5 2009, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you take the heat out of the lava, it's solid. edit: I didn't really have to explain that, did I? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that's not what he meant by take it out of the equation? He meant, assume you don't get destroyed by the heat of the lava.

noncomposmentis

<!--quoteo(post=1730943:date=Oct 5 2009, 10:58 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 5 2009, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realize that's not what he meant by take it out of the equation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure?!





Anyway, I wasn't really being serious.

monopolowa

even if the heat wasn't a problem, lava has a very high viscosity (high internal friction). I'm pretty sure if you threw a rock onto a lava flow it would just sit on the surface.


Here's what a quick search brought up...scroll to the chart at the bottom
<a href="http://www.spacegrant.hawaii.edu/class_acts/ViscosityTe.html" target="_blank">http://www.spacegrant.hawaii.edu/class_acts/ViscosityTe.html</a>

This clearly isn't something you could swim in.

JAmazon

Although upon further analysis he may be on to something. The pressure at a given depth, d, of lava in an earth like gravitational field is r*g*d (Where r = lava density and g = 9.8 or whatever). Now if we had the P-T phase plot of the lava we could hold its temperature fixed at some value T where it is liquid at standard pressure (that is to say its liquid at d=0). Then there might exist (but not necessarily) a depth, D(T)>0, which depends on the temperature such that (r*g*D(T),T) lies on the liquid-solid phase boundary. Now if it 'so happens' that at standard lava temps( <-hah) this D(T) is small, say a few inches. then noncomposmentis is absolutely right. However if T is sufficiently large then this D(T) may be infinite in which case we can swim in it down to any depth we so choose. If we had an accurate lava phase plot then we could actually solve this problem for numerical solutions. But based on the fact that we have liquid lava colums several miles deep in volcanoes, I'm gonna say that D(T) is rather large.

fun fact - for mercury at STP, D(T) = something like a few feet (someone told me this once and I don't care to check it). So if you had a pool filled with mercury it would be solid metal a few feet under the surface.

To monopolowa: The rock on the surface of lava is more of a surface tension effect. Which is in some ways related tot he viscosity of lava. But the definition of viscosity that they use on that site is to measure the rate at which a sphere can move through the lava under only the influence of gravity. Now if we assume that our HA is a sphere whose average density, "Rheavy", is greater than that of the lava, "Rlava", then it will sink with velocity v = 2(Rheavy-Rlava)(g)(a²)/(9*eta). If something can sink in lava then I'm sure it can swim in it if it has enough power to move its appendages against the viscosity.

Ok, I'm done nerding for today

remi

<!--quoteo(post=1730946:date=Oct 5 2009, 10:14 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 5 2009, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I wasn't really being serious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah. This threw me off:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't really have to explain that, did I?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seemed all seriousness-ful.


<!--quoteo(post=1730952:date=Oct 5 2009, 10:38 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Oct 5 2009, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although upon further analysis he may be on to something. The pressure at a given depth, d, of lava in an earth like gravitational field is r*g*d (Where r = lava density and g = 9.8 or whatever). Now if we had the P-T phase plot of the lava we could hold its temperature fixed at some value T where it is liquid at standard pressure (that is to say its liquid at d=0). Then there might exist (but not necessarily) a depth, D(T)>0, which depends on the temperature such that (r*g*D(T),T) lies on the liquid-solid phase boundary. Now if it 'so happens' that at standard lava temps( <-hah) this D(T) is small, say a few inches. then noncomposmentis is absolutely right. However if T is sufficiently large then this D(T) may be infinite in which case we can swim in it down to any depth we so choose. If we had an accurate lava phase plot then we could actually solve this problem for numerical solutions. But based on the fact that we have liquid lava colums several miles deep in volcanoes, I'm gonna say that D(T) is rather large.

fun fact - for mercury at STP, D(T) = something like a few feet (someone told me this once and I don't care to check it). So if you had a pool filled with mercury it would be solid metal a few feet under the surface.

To monopolowa: The rock on the surface of lava is more of a surface tension effect. Which is in some ways related tot he viscosity of lava. But the definition of viscosity that they use on that site is to measure the rate at which a sphere can move through the lava under only the influence of gravity. Now if we assume that our HA is a sphere whose average density, "Rheavy", is greater than that of the lava, "Rlava", then it will sink with velocity v = 2(Rheavy-Rlava)(g)(a²)/(9*eta). If something can sink in lava then I'm sure it can swim in it if it has enough power to move its appendages against the viscosity.

Ok, I'm done nerding for today<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. Your post actually makes sense.

Supernorn

Nice derailing there....

Aaaaaand back to water.