Lighting's effects on the gameplay
project_demon
Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18103Members
Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18103Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or is it simply eye candy?</div>Topic says it all, basically I was wondering what effects will lighting have on the gameplay? Alas we've seen time and time again where lighting has been set aside in games; it was a non-factor gameplay wise (and i'm not talking about old games). However if you think about it, lighting should be on top of the list in terms of what effects it has on the gameplay due to the fact that most of our actions (especially in videogames) are based upon what we see, and if we can't see, or rather if we can't see too well, then our actions will change depending on the situation.
I believe that out of all basic things that are present in most games (sound, lighting, map layout, etc.) lighting has been the least exploited in terms of gameplay alteration potential.
Now I've been quietly following NS2's development (yes I pre-ordered) and I've noticed that there is an impressive lighting system going on here, it would be a shame if its potential wasn't fully exploited. So i guess my questions is, What exactly is planned for this lighting system, in what way will it affect the gameplay? Will some units have abilities that depend on the amount of lighting present (cloak/blend in)? Or is the advanced dynamic lighting there for graphic purposes only (eye candy?) for now at least.
One last thing, if the lighting is to play a key factor gameplay wise, what will be the player's brightness/gamma restrictions? I'm asking this because in some games where lighting is meant to play an important role, this role can be easily neglected by increasing the brightness/gamma.
What are your thoughts?
*Edited: October 13 2009*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think i have an idea on how to use lighting without worrying about the player's brightness settings:
Is the flashlight still present in NS2? Because if it is still there then there could be some spots in the map that are completely dark, so no matter how much you played with the brightness it won't matter, the only way you will see is to turn your flash light on and considering that NS2 has occlusion lighting then there should be enough light once the flashlight is on for the player to see what's lurking in the dark. That's a simple way to use lighting without worrying on the brightness that people have their game set to. Of course I'm not suggesting to make large areas of the map completely dark, but perhaps a few small locations here and there *cough* gorge hide outs *cough*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that out of all basic things that are present in most games (sound, lighting, map layout, etc.) lighting has been the least exploited in terms of gameplay alteration potential.
Now I've been quietly following NS2's development (yes I pre-ordered) and I've noticed that there is an impressive lighting system going on here, it would be a shame if its potential wasn't fully exploited. So i guess my questions is, What exactly is planned for this lighting system, in what way will it affect the gameplay? Will some units have abilities that depend on the amount of lighting present (cloak/blend in)? Or is the advanced dynamic lighting there for graphic purposes only (eye candy?) for now at least.
One last thing, if the lighting is to play a key factor gameplay wise, what will be the player's brightness/gamma restrictions? I'm asking this because in some games where lighting is meant to play an important role, this role can be easily neglected by increasing the brightness/gamma.
What are your thoughts?
*Edited: October 13 2009*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think i have an idea on how to use lighting without worrying about the player's brightness settings:
Is the flashlight still present in NS2? Because if it is still there then there could be some spots in the map that are completely dark, so no matter how much you played with the brightness it won't matter, the only way you will see is to turn your flash light on and considering that NS2 has occlusion lighting then there should be enough light once the flashlight is on for the player to see what's lurking in the dark. That's a simple way to use lighting without worrying on the brightness that people have their game set to. Of course I'm not suggesting to make large areas of the map completely dark, but perhaps a few small locations here and there *cough* gorge hide outs *cough*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Are the Aliens keeping their white glowing eyes in the dark? (like the first ns trailer) If yes, it would be really easy to spot them. I think one has at least to put on his flashlight.
Maybe there could be some blending effects on players, too. Space Supernovas for the win.
After all they make ambushing and sneaking a lot harder.
In NS1 new players already had a problem with ambushing properly due to skulk body parts peaking out and if you add shadows to that in NS2, it might get even more difficult for new players, which is the opposite of what is planned regarding the learning curve and new players.
:( That is not funny. Shadows are a cool thing.
Not true. Lighting even now in NS1 affects (skulk)gameplay a bit.
It's always better to ambush out of the shadows than standing in bright light, holding up the "shoot here" sign...
Mm, that's the problem, also fighting in the dark isn't always much fun without a lot of mechanics built around it.
It would be ok for a singleplayer game, but not for multiplayer where people are always looking for the edge.
That's not to say people can't make a singleplayer NS mod which includes lighting as a mechanic like alien vs predator.
That's why i was asking what the limitation on brightness & gamma are.
there isn't, unless they purposefully waste range... which would be idiotic. There is always a way if you really want something.
You just can't put a limitation on gamma either because people do still have old monitors, and there are alot of differences in newer monitors aswell.
I guess you could put insanely high contrast to dark areas and lighted areas so if you turned your gamma up to see in the dark you'd burn your eyes out when you stepped in to the light.
>_>
<_<
Yeah, not gonna happen.
There are 3rd party programs for controlling the gamma too, I don't think it's worth setting any intentional limits for gamma settings.
You *could* combat this by using very bright and very dark areas in the same places. What I mean is, position the dark areas around lit spots, so if someone WAS to turn their brightness up, it would washout those areas!
I am not good at getting my point across, but what I mean is this: Say Marine #8 goes into map named "vent" and he knows its dark so he turns up the brightness. Well, you could make it so the cheat is no good by including lit rooms and places that would be so bright to them it would have a washing out effect and even do the same thing they were trying to bypass by turning up their brightness, so the alien is still camo'd.
Marine-> X dark area /light beams/ dark area /light beams/ dark area X <- Alien
*or*
2 Marines-> X X dark area <<<-light from something shining at marines entry point/direction dark area X X <-skulks
So he will turn up the area where the alien is hiding and would think he could see the alien, but since a fan or vent or window or just a few lights are streaming in front of the dark room or corner, now he can't bypass what he is seeing, and it negates his attempt at exploiting the map! :D Either way you do it, dark areas or just evenly lit maps, the mapper is the one who decides and the one who controls, so maybe a tutorial on it, telling them if they choose to make a dark map or put dark areas in their maps, they can use tricks to keep exploiters from ruining it.
yeah? No?
I think i have an idea on how to use lighting without worrying about the player's brightness settings:
Is the flashlight still present in NS2? Because if it is still there then there could be some areas in the map that are completely dark, so no matter how much you played with the brightness it won't matter, the only way you will see is to turn your flash light on and considering that NS2 has occlusion lighting then there should be enough light once the flashlight is on for the player to see what's lurking in the dark. That's a simple way to use lighting without worrying on the brightness that people have their game set to. Of course I'm not suggesting to make large areas of the map completely dark, but perhaps a few locations here and there *cough* gorge hide outs *cough*
But here's hoping that it comes in-game already :3
I am not good at getting my point across, but what I mean is this: Say Marine #8 goes into map named "vent" and he knows its dark so he turns up the brightness. Well, you could make it so the cheat is no good by including lit rooms and places that would be so bright to them it would have a washing out effect and even do the same thing they were trying to bypass by turning up their brightness, so the alien is still camo'd.
Marine-> X dark area /light beams/ dark area /light beams/ dark area X <- Alien
*or*
2 Marines-> X X dark area <<<-light from something shining at marines entry point/direction dark area X X <-skulks
So he will turn up the area where the alien is hiding and would think he could see the alien, but since a fan or vent or window or just a few lights are streaming in front of the dark room or corner, now he can't bypass what he is seeing, and it negates his attempt at exploiting the map! :D Either way you do it, dark areas or just evenly lit maps, the mapper is the one who decides and the one who controls, so maybe a tutorial on it, telling them if they choose to make a dark map or put dark areas in their maps, they can use tricks to keep exploiters from ruining it.
yeah? No?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you can't. Contrast ratio varies depending on the monitor. The sun also rotates around the earth.
Lighting will have no effect on gameplay.
Im 12 and what is this
What he's trying to say, in an overly curt and needlessly obnoxious manner, is that lighting cannot be an important factor in balancing multiplayer games. The proleet will *always* circumvent any disadvantage they can. Same goes for restricting ingame voice communication by distance, the clanners will always switch to vent/teamspeak/mumble.
It's trivial to write a script that changes brightness/contrast/gamma on the fly, at the driver level, so large variations in brightness designed to trip up clanners won't work.
Sadly, lighting will be restricted to having an aesthetic effect, never a significant gameplay effect.
--Scythe--
It's trivial to write a script that changes brightness/contrast/gamma on the fly, at the driver level, so large variations in brightness designed to trip up clanners won't work.
Sadly, lighting will be restricted to having an aesthetic effect, never a significant gameplay effect.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for emphasis.
Maybe i'm the only one that thinks that these things don't go that well hand in hand...
Lighting is a great tool to build up atmosphere, especially if it has an impact on gameplay.
And personaly the first time i played NS it oozed with atmosphere which had been something rather new for a MP game.
Problem is that we are now in the year 2009 and there are other MP games out there that manage to build up quite a cool atmosphere with the use of lighting, just take a look at L4D for example. The dynamic flashlight is something i really don't want to miss..
Seriously i wish NS2 takes atmosphere in a MP game to a whole new level once again and that's only gonna happen with propper dynamic lighting and it having an effect on gameplay.
I don't care about clanners in that regards even if i used to be one too, i want a great game first, something unique that hasn't been seen before. If things like that conflict with the precious competive balance why not make gamma hacks a requirement for competive play? :P
Making 2 versions of the same map with different lighting sounds like alot of work, i doubt that's gonna happen.
The goal is to avoid discouraging clanners or new players(see sig).
You need to have depth to encourage competitive players to keep playing, but you need to make that depth intuitive so new players can see what they're missing. You need to have atmosphere and graphics to draw in new players and provide an interesting setting, but you can't add effects that randomly interfere with skill.
You also have to recognize there are certain limitations that are common to each group through convention. As this current thread is an example, lighting(which can be adjusted through gamma), set key combos(which can be easily scripted or macro'd), and voice comm limitations(which are usually bypassed for more robust third party apps) are all game mechanics to be avoided in competitive PC gaming. Similarly, for the sake of new players, the game should have put significant thought into world and graphical consistency, and dominating strats should have accessible counters to prevent stale public server gameplay.
Maybe in 10 years when monitors are reasonably similar will lighting be a reasonable game mechanic. Until then, the goal is to make high range, high contrast lighting that adds depth to the environment without effecting gameplay.
Maybe in 10 years when monitors are reasonably similar will lighting be a reasonable game mechanic. Until then, the goal is to make high range, high contrast lighting that adds depth to the environment without effecting gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That and in a competitive game it is generally not a good idea to add a 'enemy visibility' meter to the options menu and then design the game's visuals around the premise that everyone will voluntarily leave it set to about half way along. It creates something of a conflict of interests.
<!--quoteo(post=1732010:date=Oct 13 2009, 01:35 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Oct 13 2009, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what's the goal now? Make the game more appealing to new players or cathering to the clanners?
Maybe i'm the only one that thinks that these things don't go that well hand in hand...
Lighting is a great tool to build up atmosphere, especially if it has an impact on gameplay.
And personaly the first time i played NS it oozed with atmosphere which had been something rather new for a MP game.
Problem is that we are now in the year 2009 and there are other MP games out there that manage to build up quite a cool atmosphere with the use of lighting, just take a look at L4D for example. The dynamic flashlight is something i really don't want to miss..
Seriously i wish NS2 takes atmosphere in a MP game to a whole new level once again and that's only gonna happen with propper dynamic lighting and it having an effect on gameplay.
I don't care about clanners in that regards even if i used to be one too, i want a great game first, something unique that hasn't been seen before. If things like that conflict with the precious competive balance why not make gamma hacks a requirement for competive play? :P
Making 2 versions of the same map with different lighting sounds like alot of work, i doubt that's gonna happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Left4dead works because it doesn't have tanks sitting in the corner perfectly silent and small waiting for you to run past and then jump you from behind. As nothing other than a tank can reliably kill you in left4dead on most settings (and on some, tanks often can't) this is a good analogy. Left4dead has all sorts of things you can only get with AI enemies, all of which can be described as 'pleasing stupidity' on the part of the enemy. The same thing that stops combine snipers from being the average AWP ###### in CSS also stops left4dead's darkness from being a problem.
Having darkness in NS2 would be like replacing all the boss zombies with hunters which can kill you in half the time, removing revives, recoding the AI to be as intelligent as a human, and setting the difficulty level to expert, and forcing everyone to play these games. And that's is just for the skulks.
As I said I have no objection to and I infact encourage people to make a singleplayer coop mode where the enemy is AI controlled just so you can take NS's atmosphere that bit further, where the enemies obey the laws of narrative convention rather than the laws of ingeniously creative stupidity (the same force which stops things being foolproof, basically stronger than the force which holds atoms together) and really sells that aspect of the game, but it is not, alas, suitable for the competitive mode.
Maybe in 10 years when monitors are reasonably similar will lighting be a reasonable game mechanic. Until then, the goal is to make high range, high contrast lighting that adds depth to the environment without effecting gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I just don't buy it. Mice and headphones have wildly different specs too, but you don't have people requesting that sounds be removed or aim be fixed to a resolution becuase of that. Lighting is only an obstacle if someone circumvents it(easy to do) meaning everyone else has to in order to be on the same playing field. And, IIRC, the very brief 95% cloaking visibility change was subverted by differences in video cards, not monitors. I'm not calling it an exploit, anymore than I would call using ventrilo an exploit(it's not).