The differences in opinion seem to stem from whether you think of leap as an ability to get to the marine or an ability to damage the marine. I guess once that is decided by the devs they can make it whichever way they like. I personally like having movement abilities for classes, it makes it a bit more interesting.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733385:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:11 AM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Oct 22 2009, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Changing the lerk flight model 2. Allowing gorges to heal themselves (and who can forget how quickly they realized that a gorge should only be able to heal itself at 1/2 power) 3. Implementation of the slippery slope (res for kill), and subsequently the removal of the once relatively common "epic" game 4. Implementation of mp_blockscripts 5. Fade no longer truly "blinks", and a somewhat similar subject is the change in fade blink acceleration with the creation of +movement 6. Creation of combat game mode 7. Changing of skulk wall climb model, as it broke using +moveup to greatly assist in climbing walls 8. Changing up cloak so that you can run while being cloaked 9. BUS / nexus<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was going to write a long post, but I don't think most of these things are really issues. The ones are are issues I trust the devs to have learned from them.
What if you leap, and then you would have to leap another time, because you aimed badly straight on marine with SG, BUT you bite him automaticly, and now you wont have enough energy to leap and *dead*. Almost like having fade, with autoswipe when blink hits marine, wtf? Or what if you just want to leap behind marine with silence, but you automaticly bite his back when you fly and he turns around and shoots you. I really cant see the positive side on this case.
<!--quoteo(post=1733419:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:52 PM:name=Onozki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onozki @ Oct 22 2009, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if you leap, and then you would have to leap another time, because you aimed badly straight on marine with SG, BUT you bite him automaticly, and now you wont have enough energy to leap and *dead*. Almost like having fade, with autoswipe when blink hits marine, wtf? Or what if you just want to leap behind marine with silence, but you automaticly bite his back when you fly and he turns around and shoots you. I really cant see the positive side on this case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i really cant see a really strong negative side either, makes leap more combative rather then just an escape/movement mechanism
<!--quoteo(post=1733421:date=Oct 22 2009, 06:55 AM:name=Tha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tha @ Oct 22 2009, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i really cant see a really strong negative side either, makes leap more combative rather then just an escape/movement mechanism<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you rather force the movement mechanism out on leap in certain situations and encourage people to attack every single time they can, even if they shouldnt?
<!--quoteo(post=1733083:date=Oct 21 2009, 05:45 AM:name=rook2pawn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rook2pawn @ Oct 21 2009, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Autobite? Surely this is a joke? If its true, and tehy are headed towards the whole "the bottom line is making it more accessible for all players" the way TF2 became, then, to be honest, Im probably not gonig to play NS2, ever. Perhaps ill watch some videos of it, but autobite is a dealbreaker in a game that I wouldnt want to be part of or a community i would want to be a part of. Hope my views arent too extreme, I just think autobite is horrifying idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Me neither, I can't overrule all of the teams decisions... So I won't play the game either, (EVAH LIEK) just like you, you're my idol.
My firts reaction was surprise and hesitation. But honestly the argument has convinced me for this. I'm going to have to play it to know for sure but the logic of making the game's moves more accessible is fine by me. I'd rather be worrying about deep strategy and quick decision making skills rather than reflex-memorizing keycombos.
C'mon guys... True skill is not really being able to pull off some leap-bite move with the most difficult controls possible (why are people still even talking about hitting the number keys in quick succession?) it more knowing when and where to USE leap-bite. Or at least that how it should be.
<!--quoteo(post=1733320:date=Oct 21 2009, 06:34 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Oct 21 2009, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why would you add auto bite? makes no sense at all
it was like adding +movement in 3.2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Was that being sarcastic? Yeah, being against +movement is kind of extreme. +movement was a great design choice, although I'm sure it was met with a similar reception... "omg +movement takes away ALL skill of being alien". It's like those people who where fighting against MBS (multiple building selection) in Starcraft 2, because it takes away skill...
And who is seriously going to turn-off auto-bite? Let's wait to try it before we ask for extra work from devs. Anyone of you guys refuse to bind +movement?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733432:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:24 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Oct 22 2009, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->C'mon guys... True skill is not really being able to pull off some leap-bite move with the most difficult controls possible (why are people still even talking about hitting the number keys in quick succession?) it more knowing when and where to USE leap-bite. Or at least that how it should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with a poster who said earlier in the thread that there is no "true skill" and skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions). You're looking at auto bite as purely a twitch diminishing feature, but there are aspects of it that creep into skill move and tactical decisions.
<!--quoteo(post=1733434:date=Oct 22 2009, 08:44 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with a poster who said earlier in the thread that there is no "true skill" and skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions). You're looking at auto bite as purely a twitch diminishing feature, but there are aspects of it that creep into skill move and tactical decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed... In retrospect, I can't believe I started a sentence with "True skill is...". Anyway my point was against the people saying that this removes ALL skill from playing skull. As I find the decision making skills (gameplay depth) to be a more important development concern.
I guess after wading through 8 pages of mostly BS arguments I was a bit on edge and went extreme... maybe that's what happened to the other posters.
However I must mention that even if I still don't have problems with the auto hit. I'd like to suggest that the animation and naming would be geared toward a leap-stab attack. That way balancing the damage of the leap-attack could happen independently of the bite attack. In case leap-attack start to feel overpowered.
No.. I cant remember anyone not liking +movement actually. That, and this auto-bite feature are different things. One makes a move more accessable and gives more control and choice to the player, while the other chooses a follow up move and forces it on you.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733443:date=Oct 22 2009, 10:17 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 22 2009, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No.. I cant remember anyone not liking +movement actually. That, and this auto-bite feature are different things. One makes a move more accessable and gives more control and choice to the player, while the other chooses a follow up move and forces it on you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember one statement relatively recently that was a joke by either <b>anytime</b> or <b>domining</b> about not being able to knife bad fades so maybe that's where the confusion came from.
<!--quoteo(post=1733320:date=Oct 21 2009, 05:34 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Oct 21 2009, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why would you add auto bite? makes no sense at all
it was like adding +movement in 3.2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's someone that doesn't like +movement, I guess he would rather hit more buttons...
I love +movement, I didn't have to have funky race specific scripts to bind blink and leap to the same key.
For those that say that you shouldn't leap directly at a marine, in the first NS you could redirect movement while moving through the air. That is not physically possible in the real world, once you leap you head the direction you were pointed. Therefore, leaping at the enemy IS the logical way to attack someone when you don't have wings to redirect. This change simply makes leap a leaping attack, and of course it could be used for movement since if you don't contact a Marine, you simply land and get to leap again (depending on how fast you can leap again).
<!--quoteo(post=1733322:date=Oct 21 2009, 11:43 PM:name=Metro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metro @ Oct 21 2009, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people seem to forget that leap was an attack in NS1 and not a movement-ability. It has always done damage to it's target if used properly. This is merely a different method of delivering that damage. Allthough it may be increased damage, but essentialy it's still the same thing.
The discussion should not be on if auto-bite on the end of a leap is bad, but rather on wether leap should be completely movement-based or not. Ergo- Do we want the ability to be reworked from the NS1 concept completely(To be movement-based only) or do we want to keep it as it's always been(An Attack-move), albeit slightly modified.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest I don't really see how this would make leap any less of a movement skill or any more of an attack skill. It doesn't add anything new or take anything away, it just streamlines an existing action.
In NS1 you can leap at someone then do some finger wizardry to change to bite and attack before you miss the marine, the overall effect is that leap launches you at a marine and does damage when you hit them, while at the same time being usable simply to launch yourself around.
With this implementation, you can leap at someone and then if you hit them you do the damage you would if you'd done the rather stupid control shuffling that was required to do it in NS1. Functionally it's identical, it just removes the need to whack number keys and the mouse button, which to be honest I always thought of as being a quicktime event in disugise, it's like having a button flash up on screen and you have to hit the sequence or fail the attack, except without the buttons flashing up. It's still just as unpleasant though. Nothing appears to be precluding the use of leap as a movement ability in this, if you want you could just have the energy cost increase if you hit someone with it, so you can move with it but not attack with it all the time.
My only possible gripe is the visual aspect of this, which would need some attention to ensure it looks natural.
<!--quoteo(post=1733457:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:32 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 22 2009, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With this implementation, you can leap at someone and then if you hit them you do the damage you would if you'd done the rather stupid control shuffling that was required to do it in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you using +movement? I can't see a significant difference between it and autobite in control shuffling.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1733460:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:58 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 22 2009, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you using +movement? I can't see a significant difference between it and autobite in control shuffling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the surface no, there isn't. There are a couple arguments of debatable applicability one could make: 1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does. 2.) +movement doesn't perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
<!--quoteo(post=1733466:date=Oct 22 2009, 10:09 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the surface no, there isn't. There are a couple arguments of debatable applicability one could make: 1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does. 2.) +movement perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
I personally care about 1 but not about 2 at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Autobite only takes away control if you assume that leap (for skulks leap is triggered by +movement) is intended to be a movement ability and not an attack that involves movement. In NS 1 the damage from leap is currently minor, and stacks with the bite on impact. Numbers are for example purposes, I don't know the exact values.
Leap - 20 damage Bite - 45 damage
So in NS1 if you leap and hit your opponent then bite them you do 65 damage.
In NS2 the autobite simply combines the two parts, and for the sake of argument leap does 65 damage as they intend a leaping skulk to do a larger amount of damage. They could have taken two approaches to avoid the damage stacking with bite, either have the creature bite on impact or have the leap do damage and delay the bite feature. The second approach would not give players the same feedback that seeing a bite would do, for example in NS1 you can't even tell that you caused leap damage. They could have added a sound or something but the visual of a bite is much easier to see and is more defined when there is a lot of noise.
So, the autobite allows newer players a visual feedback that they have attacked the enemy at the end of a leap and avoids damage stacking issues at the same time. The only players who are effected are those that attack in an unnatural way by going past their target and biting sideways, animals don't attack that way and it doesn't follow momentum or other physics. Autobite is the logical solution for game implementation.
But in NS it's YOUR choice whether or not to tack on the bite at the end. In NS2 it seems it wont be. Calling it an attack move instead of a movement ability is just newspeak for "we choose for you".
<!--quoteo(post=1733334:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:47 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Oct 22 2009, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats like saying having an rpg round auto-explode when it hits its target is "taking away the gameplay from the player" because they don't have to fire it a second time when it reaches its destination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Manual detonation sounds like a useful ability for a rocket launcher to me. Soldier in TF2 wouldn't have to aim at the ground if you could just air-detonate rockets when they were near your enemy.
By the way, auto-swipe for NS1 fade would actually make it a bit more powerful, I think - losing control isn't good, but being able to just select Metabolize and hold LMB down forever without having to worry about more than brushing into marines while blinking would make it a lot easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1733466:date=Oct 22 2009, 04:09 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the surface no, there isn't. There are a couple arguments of debatable applicability one could make: 1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does. 2.) +movement perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
I personally care about 1 but not about 2 at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with those. It just seems that a lot of people favorable for the autobite aren't making full use of +movement. Without it I'd see autobite as a decent option too. Then again I see +movement as an even better option, because of your 1.) and also because it has smoother transition to the slightly higher levels of gameplay, so people won't get stuck with the possibly inflexible and disadvantageous autobiting.
<!--quoteo(post=1733137:date=Oct 21 2009, 02:18 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 21 2009, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get some perspective people. This isn't going to simplify leap->bite too much. As zek pointed out already, having to hit the marine to bite is not optimal. Typically you can bite as you leap past or get near a marine and the skilled player will still be able to do this and it will still be a differentiator. I see this as a simplification of the very basic scenario where you leap directly at a marine. <!--coloro:#9955FF--><span style="color:#9955FF"><!--/coloro-->It will make it easier and less latency dependent to get off that bite on contact. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Beginner players will be able to leap at marines and have a half decent chance of landing a hit, and skilled players will be able to do a lot more. When you're leaping at a marine, the last thing you want to do is make contact and fall the ground at their feet? You want to turn and bite on the way past to disorient them and then dash around them to land the second bite before they have time to react.
edit: skulk headnut! I love it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#9955FF--><span style="color:#9955FF"><!--/coloro-->Because of prediction and lag compensation the auto-bite will have to be initiated client side; auto-bite will be equally latency dependent.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It will only be less reflex dependent. This means people will favor leap over bite in every combat situation. People will literally never use the standard bite in combat.
The addition of leap as a innate ability already removes most of the short-range minigame. By removing the timing and range dependency of standard bite the close range combat system will literally cease to exist. As much as I love the leaping combat I would also like to see some amount of close range bite-dodge remain in the game.
You might aswel make this the primary attack. Call the secondary "siege-bite", as it will only be used to kill stationary structures. The entire concept is bad.
i like plus movement because it grants you OPTIONS and, yes, leaping and biting was the most satisfying thing EVER! leap did claim it had a damage component with it, it just seemed to occur at some point during the leap, and was very difficult to get to actually land on a player. i think i did it...once. i jut didnt know when leap did damage. so "autobite" is dumb, leap doing claw damage, as the claws wave through the air on your screen, makes sense. just have it do damage if you touch someone, DO NOT have it bite! other poeple have posted to this effect, and i agree with it. if they really want to make leap to damage as well, and you can tack on another bite.
but i dont ever want to autoBITE. thats really just dumb.
for instance, i think the onos rampage or wahtever did damage by running into things. cool. you could also gore on top of that. cool. onos auto goring? F THAT. the game cant decide when its best to attack for you. thats just plain dumb. and even if there are only a few insances when you wouldnt want to attack, havign it EVER mess up your plan, even once, is WAY TO OFTEN.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
Assuming it only bites when you impact a marine, I can't see this removing any significant amount of skill from the game, but I'm also unsure how it helps new players. Any new player who sees an enemy in his face is going to instinctively hit his primary attack. Because leap no longer requires a weapon switch, this primary attack will be a bite.
It would only help if the player didn't see his target. Perhaps that's the idea, then, to allow new players to blindly spam leap in melee similarly to how they can blindly spray guns in other games.
<!--quoteo(post=1733480:date=Oct 22 2009, 05:48 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[color="#9955FF"]the close range combat system will literally cease to exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, jump to conclusions much? Just a guess here, leap/bite attack is going to take a longer time than "bite," (2 actions vs 1), therefore at close range it will be quicker/more effective to just use bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1733488:date=Oct 22 2009, 06:10 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Oct 22 2009, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps that's the idea, then, to allow new players to blindly spam leap in melee similarly to how they can blindly spray guns in other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, maybe not, but in any case it seems obvious that the implication of having to lead your targets with leap/bite will be more misses than hits if it's "blindly spammed." So sure, maybe new players will spam this attack ineffectively, but so what? They'll do that with pretty much any weapon.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1733480:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because of prediction and lag compensation the auto-bite will have to be initiated client side; auto-bite will be equally latency dependent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, you're right. Having it autobite for me AND missing? That sounds just terrible. <!--quoteo(post=1733480:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will only be less reflex dependent. This means people will favor leap over bite in every combat situation. People will literally never use the standard bite in combat.
The addition of leap as a innate ability already removes most of the short-range minigame. By removing the timing and range dependency of standard bite the close range combat system will literally cease to exist. As much as I love the leaping combat I would also like to see some amount of close range bite-dodge remain in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There're still significant differences, like 2 leap bites in a row and you're out of adren whereas you can get more bites if you don't leap. I think your prediction of it utterly destroying everything is unwarranted. <!--quoteo(post=1733476:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Manual detonation sounds like a useful ability for a rocket launcher to me. Soldier in TF2 wouldn't have to aim at the ground if you could just air-detonate rockets when they were near your enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you'd be the demoman then.
Comments
2. Allowing gorges to heal themselves (and who can forget how quickly they realized that a gorge should only be able to heal itself at 1/2 power)
3. Implementation of the slippery slope (res for kill), and subsequently the removal of the once relatively common "epic" game
4. Implementation of mp_blockscripts
5. Fade no longer truly "blinks", and a somewhat similar subject is the change in fade blink acceleration with the creation of +movement
6. Creation of combat game mode
7. Changing of skulk wall climb model, as it broke using +moveup to greatly assist in climbing walls
8. Changing up cloak so that you can run while being cloaked
9. BUS / nexus<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to write a long post, but I don't think most of these things are really issues. The ones are are issues I trust the devs to have learned from them.
Almost like having fade, with autoswipe when blink hits marine, wtf? Or what if you just want to leap behind marine with silence, but you automaticly bite his back when you fly and he turns around and shoots you.
I really cant see the positive side on this case.
Almost like having fade, with autoswipe when blink hits marine, wtf? Or what if you just want to leap behind marine with silence, but you automaticly bite his back when you fly and he turns around and shoots you.
I really cant see the positive side on this case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i really cant see a really strong negative side either, makes leap more combative rather then just an escape/movement mechanism
So you rather force the movement mechanism out on leap in certain situations and encourage people to attack every single time they can, even if they shouldnt?
Me neither, I can't overrule all of the teams decisions... So I won't play the game either, (EVAH LIEK) just like you, you're my idol.
C'mon guys... True skill is not really being able to pull off some leap-bite move with the most difficult controls possible (why are people still even talking about hitting the number keys in quick succession?) it more knowing when and where to USE leap-bite. Or at least that how it should be.
<!--quoteo(post=1733320:date=Oct 21 2009, 06:34 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Oct 21 2009, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why would you add auto bite? makes no sense at all
it was like adding +movement in 3.2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Was that being sarcastic? Yeah, being against +movement is kind of extreme. +movement was a great design choice, although I'm sure it was met with a similar reception...
"omg +movement takes away ALL skill of being alien".
It's like those people who where fighting against MBS (multiple building selection) in Starcraft 2, because it takes away skill...
And who is seriously going to turn-off auto-bite? Let's wait to try it before we ask for extra work from devs. Anyone of you guys refuse to bind +movement?
I agree with a poster who said earlier in the thread that there is no "true skill" and skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions). You're looking at auto bite as purely a twitch diminishing feature, but there are aspects of it that creep into skill move and tactical decisions.
Is it so hard to press the mouse button at a certain time in midair?
Why make everything automatic?
Let's give auto-aim to the marines while we're at it!
If it does make it to the game, at least enable us to disable it.
Indeed... In retrospect, I can't believe I started a sentence with "True skill is...". Anyway my point was against the people saying that this removes ALL skill from playing skull. As I find the decision making skills (gameplay depth) to be a more important development concern.
I guess after wading through 8 pages of mostly BS arguments I was a bit on edge and went extreme... maybe that's what happened to the other posters.
However I must mention that even if I still don't have problems with the auto hit. I'd like to suggest that the animation and naming would be geared toward a leap-stab attack. That way balancing the damage of the leap-attack could happen independently of the bite attack. In case leap-attack start to feel overpowered.
I remember one statement relatively recently that was a joke by either <b>anytime</b> or <b>domining</b> about not being able to knife bad fades so maybe that's where the confusion came from.
it was like adding +movement in 3.2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's someone that doesn't like +movement, I guess he would rather hit more buttons...
I love +movement, I didn't have to have funky race specific scripts to bind blink and leap to the same key.
For those that say that you shouldn't leap directly at a marine, in the first NS you could redirect movement while moving through the air. That is not physically possible in the real world, once you leap you head the direction you were pointed. Therefore, leaping at the enemy IS the logical way to attack someone when you don't have wings to redirect. This change simply makes leap a leaping attack, and of course it could be used for movement since if you don't contact a Marine, you simply land and get to leap again (depending on how fast you can leap again).
The discussion should not be on if auto-bite on the end of a leap is bad, but rather on wether leap should be completely movement-based or not. Ergo- Do we want the ability to be reworked from the NS1 concept completely(To be movement-based only) or do we want to keep it as it's always been(An Attack-move), albeit slightly modified.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest I don't really see how this would make leap any less of a movement skill or any more of an attack skill. It doesn't add anything new or take anything away, it just streamlines an existing action.
In NS1 you can leap at someone then do some finger wizardry to change to bite and attack before you miss the marine, the overall effect is that leap launches you at a marine and does damage when you hit them, while at the same time being usable simply to launch yourself around.
With this implementation, you can leap at someone and then if you hit them you do the damage you would if you'd done the rather stupid control shuffling that was required to do it in NS1. Functionally it's identical, it just removes the need to whack number keys and the mouse button, which to be honest I always thought of as being a quicktime event in disugise, it's like having a button flash up on screen and you have to hit the sequence or fail the attack, except without the buttons flashing up. It's still just as unpleasant though. Nothing appears to be precluding the use of leap as a movement ability in this, if you want you could just have the energy cost increase if you hit someone with it, so you can move with it but not attack with it all the time.
My only possible gripe is the visual aspect of this, which would need some attention to ensure it looks natural.
Are you using +movement? I can't see a significant difference between it and autobite in control shuffling.
On the surface no, there isn't. There are a couple arguments of debatable applicability one could make:
1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does.
2.) +movement doesn't perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
I personally care about 1 but not about 2 at all.
edit: missing word
1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does.
2.) +movement perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
I personally care about 1 but not about 2 at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Autobite only takes away control if you assume that leap (for skulks leap is triggered by +movement) is intended to be a movement ability and not an attack that involves movement. In NS 1 the damage from leap is currently minor, and stacks with the bite on impact. Numbers are for example purposes, I don't know the exact values.
Leap - 20 damage
Bite - 45 damage
So in NS1 if you leap and hit your opponent then bite them you do 65 damage.
In NS2 the autobite simply combines the two parts, and for the sake of argument leap does 65 damage as they intend a leaping skulk to do a larger amount of damage. They could have taken two approaches to avoid the damage stacking with bite, either have the creature bite on impact or have the leap do damage and delay the bite feature. The second approach would not give players the same feedback that seeing a bite would do, for example in NS1 you can't even tell that you caused leap damage. They could have added a sound or something but the visual of a bite is much easier to see and is more defined when there is a lot of noise.
So, the autobite allows newer players a visual feedback that they have attacked the enemy at the end of a leap and avoids damage stacking issues at the same time. The only players who are effected are those that attack in an unnatural way by going past their target and biting sideways, animals don't attack that way and it doesn't follow momentum or other physics. Autobite is the logical solution for game implementation.
Manual detonation sounds like a useful ability for a rocket launcher to me. Soldier in TF2 wouldn't have to aim at the ground if you could just air-detonate rockets when they were near your enemy.
By the way, auto-swipe for NS1 fade would actually make it a bit more powerful, I think - losing control isn't good, but being able to just select Metabolize and hold LMB down forever without having to worry about more than brushing into marines while blinking would make it a lot easier.
1.) +movement doesn't take control away from the player while autobite does.
2.) +movement perform combat maneuvers for the player while autobite does.
I personally care about 1 but not about 2 at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with those. It just seems that a lot of people favorable for the autobite aren't making full use of +movement. Without it I'd see autobite as a decent option too. Then again I see +movement as an even better option, because of your 1.) and also because it has smoother transition to the slightly higher levels of gameplay, so people won't get stuck with the possibly inflexible and disadvantageous autobiting.
edit: skulk headnut! I love it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#9955FF--><span style="color:#9955FF"><!--/coloro-->Because of prediction and lag compensation the auto-bite will have to be initiated client side; auto-bite will be equally latency dependent.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It will only be less reflex dependent. This means people will favor leap over bite in every combat situation. People will literally never use the standard bite in combat.
The addition of leap as a innate ability already removes most of the short-range minigame. By removing the timing and range dependency of standard bite the close range combat system will literally cease to exist. As much as I love the leaping combat I would also like to see some amount of close range bite-dodge remain in the game.
You might aswel make this the primary attack. Call the secondary "siege-bite", as it will only be used to kill stationary structures. The entire concept is bad.
so "autobite" is dumb, leap doing claw damage, as the claws wave through the air on your screen, makes sense. just have it do damage if you touch someone, DO NOT have it bite! other poeple have posted to this effect, and i agree with it. if they really want to make leap to damage as well, and you can tack on another bite.
but i dont ever want to autoBITE. thats really just dumb.
for instance, i think the onos rampage or wahtever did damage by running into things. cool. you could also gore on top of that. cool. onos auto goring? F THAT. the game cant decide when its best to attack for you. thats just plain dumb. and even if there are only a few insances when you wouldnt want to attack, havign it EVER mess up your plan, even once, is WAY TO OFTEN.
It would only help if the player didn't see his target. Perhaps that's the idea, then, to allow new players to blindly spam leap in melee similarly to how they can blindly spray guns in other games.
Wow, jump to conclusions much? Just a guess here, leap/bite attack is going to take a longer time than "bite," (2 actions vs 1), therefore at close range it will be quicker/more effective to just use bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1733488:date=Oct 22 2009, 06:10 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Oct 22 2009, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps that's the idea, then, to allow new players to blindly spam leap in melee similarly to how they can blindly spray guns in other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, maybe not, but in any case it seems obvious that the implication of having to lead your targets with leap/bite will be more misses than hits if it's "blindly spammed." So sure, maybe new players will spam this attack ineffectively, but so what? They'll do that with pretty much any weapon.
Hmm, you're right. Having it autobite for me AND missing? That sounds just terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1733480:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will only be less reflex dependent. This means people will favor leap over bite in every combat situation. People will literally never use the standard bite in combat.
The addition of leap as a innate ability already removes most of the short-range minigame. By removing the timing and range dependency of standard bite the close range combat system will literally cease to exist. As much as I love the leaping combat I would also like to see some amount of close range bite-dodge remain in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There're still significant differences, like 2 leap bites in a row and you're out of adren whereas you can get more bites if you don't leap. I think your prediction of it utterly destroying everything is unwarranted.
<!--quoteo(post=1733476:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Manual detonation sounds like a useful ability for a rocket launcher to me. Soldier in TF2 wouldn't have to aim at the ground if you could just air-detonate rockets when they were near your enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you'd be the demoman then.