locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1734263:date=Oct 28 2009, 11:03 AM:name=RikkAndrsn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RikkAndrsn @ Oct 28 2009, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't that casual players had less of an incentive to join competitive play, but that they had less of an incentive to actually improve and become better players because the benefit within their context was lessened by the random aspects themselves. And I'm not talking simply about skill in terms of raw ability to frag, I'm talking about improvement as an overall of combined movement, aiming, tactics, and in-depth knowledge of class roles and abilities in terms of how they interact with the team as an overall. And Team Fortress 2 actually does have a huge amount of depth, the problem is that certain aspects of the game (like crits and the damage spread) create a large decrease in the incentives to take advantage of this depth and actually improve to a higher level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, but that higher level is usually attained by the competitive community anyway and the competitive community doesn't allow crits or random damage spread. Therefore, if the depth is there, then there should be incentive to improve again.
<!--quoteo(post=1734253:date=Oct 28 2009, 01:31 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 28 2009, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In CS camping only worked if the teams weren't working towards objectives, as if the bomb was down and a Terrorist was camping all the CTs had to do was watch the bomb, and if a CT was camping the Terrorists just had to plant...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ignoring the objective happens all the time, it takes one ignorant terrorist or a pluginless server and you've got the opening. It's also damn boring to wait all round long for the other team's iniative on public game, so it's a safe assumption someone will walk into your position even if you were supposed to be the aggressive one.
K : D > 1 shouldn't be too difficult if you've got a suitable play style and a decent advisor. I've seen absolutely terrible players going K:D 3+ if they just have fragging as their only target. Most decent players just don't bother playing careful on public games.
You're all really tossing and turning idea's over nothing. It's an online multiplayer team game, you can't get everyone to play in the interest of 'fairness'.
The closest to a 'fair game' will probably be competitive play against equally skilled teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1734277:date=Oct 28 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Oct 28 2009, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're all really tossing and turning idea's over nothing. It's an online multiplayer team game, you can't get everyone to play in the interest of 'fairness'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should probably take a second read of this thread. The discussion is primarily over the system being fair to players and not over players being fair to other players. In the context of games, a well constructed systems uses incentives and disincentives in order to create situations in which the choice that benefits the team most is the same choice that benefits the player most. The heart of the discussion is around skill ceilings, game depth, and balance but that doesn't inherently mean 'fairness' as the goal of each individual's playing motivation towards others is what is even being discussed.
<!--quoteo(post=1734172:date=Oct 27 2009, 03:37 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 27 2009, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Popular athletic sports serve as a great model for any competitive game. Just as soccer, basketball, football, or baseball should not strive to make it enjoyable for an amateur team to play a professional team neither should NS. Such is a necessary evil to allow any enjoyment from a competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I realize I may be a bit late to this but I find this comparison to be a bit of bull. There aren't teams of professionals playing on public fields where new people may come to play and get completely owned. Whereas in online games, that's exactly what happens. There's a server that a new player picks due to good pings and amount of players (usually) and who's in that server is completely random. There's a reason there are leagues in sports and why they separate them by skill base.
You can't really split the community into leagues, though. Which is why it's important to take these steps to at least try and give some enjoyment to the player on the losing end of an ass kicking. Ragdolls, death animations, dismemberment- All things that are a result of you being killed that I personally love to watch happen in games. There's nothing more fun (in my opinion) than being killed by a grenade in RO (Red Orchestra) and explaining to my friends what happened to my body.
I think an easy goal is to make dieing something that can be humorous/gruesome/crazy to the deceased. TF2* did this with special death animations and it really makes dieing, less of a "suck" moment.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*By mentioning TF2, I in no way suggest that we turn NS2 into a cartoon shooter full of silly/stupid guns, sounds, animations, etc... such as TF2.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
What's interesting about this to me is that it suggests a solution that's been already hinted at in other places. Different rules for different levels of play. The change in rules, that being the exclusion of crits, not only works to highlight skills of the highly competitive, but also acts to discourage them from playing much on regular servers simply because they don't like dying a "random" death based on crits.
For NS2, I'd suggest this might manifest itself in default play having a larger amount of chance within it.. thus its more forgiving to those players who don't have the inclination to continually practice to get better, but rather just want to get in and play for a bit without being repeatedly dominated, while competitive play mode have some changes that lessen this randomness.
What that randomness might be, I don't know, but I think TF2 had it right in that they made it obvious when it was happening.
One of the issues that was never successfully addressed (I don't think they really tried) with NS1 was game balance with changing team sizes as the game was balanced for 8-10 players if I remember correctly. This means that at larger sizes (say 30) the game played completely differently, marines could walk into a hive and hose it down in a few seconds and aliens had a harder time ambushing single marines because all marines could move around in groups. Although by the final version it was better than previous versions it was still something noticeable as games played completely differently with larger populations.
I haven't been able to sort through the postings enough to find team sizes, does anyone know if there will be a similar range of team sizes or if the game play is supposed to scale with the team sizes?
The unified resource system (alien commander having a pool for spending on stuff for entire team, individual marines being able to buy stuff for themselves) is one step towards supporting all team sizes, I believe.
The most relevant thing I can add to this thread is Team Fortress 2. That is exactly how you do this right.
TF2 is such a success mainly because it appeal to all kinds of different players. Every kind of different appeal that you could find in an FPS game is present in there. You have something for twitch gamers, something for... well whatever you'd fit the Soldier in to (I'm terrible at twitch and therefore the scout, but I'm good at soldier, go figure). Support roles, cloak-and-dagger, etc. The game has it all. So no matter what you want in an FPS, there's something there for you to do.
Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed), but generally a team with a good spread of classes (and therefore playstyles) will do better against a team that's lopsided in class division.
NS1 wasn't like this. If you played a marine, you'd better be good at twitch. Hell, as an alien you started as a skulk, you had to be good at twitch. You could go gorge on occasion (until you got banned because of TOO MANY GORGES OMG), but by and large, the team with the most twitch players was going to win, because that's all the game was about - hitscan weapons and fast reflexes with little else.
Dumbing down the game isn't the solution. Light-up paths and voiceover tutorials other silly ###### like that isn't going to change a damn thing. And neither is throwing around the word 'skill' like it's the definitive be-all answer to everything. OH sure you could say the Scout that's jumping through the base and splattercannon's a demo in the face is skilled, but what about the Medic who's not died the entire match, and is on his fifth uber? If we subscribed to NS1's idolization of 'teh sk1llz', the medic is ###### and therefore we shouldn't care about him - all hail the scout. Christ, the meterstick by which to measure skill around here was your ability to bunnyhop or not (thus all discussions about bunnyhop revolved around 'skill' when that's not the point at all).
I'll take another game - Battlefield 2142. Again, it offers quite a few different ways to play. Not as varied as TF2, but you also don't need to be Twitchshot McKillfast. Engineers are pretty easy to play, hell you can be Assault and spend the whole game with the defibrillator in your hands - you're not any less useful and just as valuable as the guy who's smearing guys with his pistol. If you're not great at aiming, grab a bigass machine gun and lay down some lead.
If you really want to find a definitive way of appealing to multiple players without lame things like handicaps or matchmaking (*shudder*) you design your game to be accessible in those ways. Even Tribes had a hundred different ways to play, and that game wasn't "dumbed down" in the slightest. Blow up people with the spinfusor, or strap your butt in the back of a bomber, all useful, but not all rely on the same skillset.
Fact is, as long as NS is shooting fast things with the twitchy LMG, the twitchy HMG, or the twitchy shotgun, or move quickly and bite things with the twitchy jaws or smack them with the twitchy claws, you aren't going to be able to level out that skill disparity - because <b>a lot of people just aren't good at twitch</b>.
There's a reason why Natural Selection had me hooked from the start and still intrigues me after all those years, while TF2 got bland after just a few hours of playing it. A certain level of complexity is needed to let me enjoy a game for any serious amount of time. If everything is smoothed out perfectly it starts to feel boring and "game-ish".
<!--quoteo(post=1734339:date=Oct 29 2009, 01:38 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Oct 29 2009, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason why Natural Selection had me hooked from the start and still intrigues me after all those years, while TF2 got bland after just a few hours of playing it. A certain level of complexity is needed to let me enjoy a game for any serious amount of time. If everything is smoothed out perfectly it starts to feel boring and "game-ish".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF2 got boring to me for a couple reasons - one was the lack of quality maps, and two was Valve's ham-fisted approach to balance (for example, neutering the demoman). I can also understand not enjoying the relatively straightforward approach to it, but that doesn't change my original point - many of the most successful FPS games integrated different ways to play depending on what you liked, how good you were, or just what you felt like doing that day. There was many a time where I passed up a game of NS because the high-level intensity was just too prevalent. I think it was in the L4D commentary that Valve pointed out (actually I think it's somewhere in ALL commentary) that it's simple fatigue. Keep a player riding a high moment for too long and they start to get tired of it.
Looking back I did find myself playing NS in waves. A week or two on, a week or two off - and I think it was due, in part, because aside from commanding which I was too horribly inept at, well, the game just got stale sometimes because you'd find yourself in a rut. There wasn't enough in there that was dramatically dissimilar from the rest. Taking the same nodes the same way every time, taking the same upgrades, D/M/S path, etc. The game almost just became formulaic. When I quit NS1 for good it was for two reasons. I despised the direction NS 3.0 went and, as a whole, the game had just completely lost its ability to entertain me. I played Tribes for years before NS, and I continued to play it throughout, simply because Tribes refused to ever get old due to the staggering variety it exhibited.
This is all digressing from my original point though - the best way to attract and keep new blood isn't to try to convert them into spastic twitch gamers (because that won't happen) but to simply offer them something BESIDES twitch. Because as-is, the only way to play and really enjoy NS is to have the reflexes of an 8 year old on an energy drink binge. And I'll probably regret this, but another problem I had noticed over the years is that because NS attracted a lot of twitch gamers, they want the game to just STAY twitch because that's what THEY'RE good at. Thus we arrive at what I perceive is the selfish, moronic crux of the entire 'TEH SKILLZ0RZ' arguments.
<!--quoteo(post=1734212:date=Oct 28 2009, 02:05 AM:name=RikkAndrsn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RikkAndrsn @ Oct 28 2009, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While moving emphasis of a video game from being successful to having fun isn't necessarily a bad thing, in Team Fortress 2's case it has created a community of lone wolfs who are essentially just trying to have fun while in Battlefield 2 players even while lone wolfing tend to act in the interest of the team in order to score higher. This has lead me to conclude that while the system is not necessarily flawed because it encourages a more casual type of play, it is flawed in that it does not encourage players to play the game better. It is my general belief that this could be rectified by having Team Fortress 2's incentive system to simply reward productive behavior more than non productive behavior (IE give the same amount of points for healing just one person, but give even more points for healing more people).
Now I can't see NS2 fostering a low-skill community, especially from playing only on public servers where the skill level is pretty damn high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the point of the game is not to be successful and simply to enjoy playing it, then not requiring the players to be good at the game is not a flaw, because it is not neccesary for the enjoyment of the game.
It's like saying that the lack of strategy in a driving game is a flaw, if a game is designed to be fun regardless of skill then how skilled you are or are not becomes entirely irrelevant, just as how much strategy you employ in a game without strategy is irrelevant. A game is not required to be challenging, although many games do try to evoke enjoyment from being challenging, but as you said, tf2 does not use this as its sole basis for fun, so complaining that it isn't challenging when it isn't trying to be makes little sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1734335:date=Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need snipers to kill snipers, you could remove snipers from the game and it wouldn't suffer, but as long as they are in the game they are needed, because if you don't snipe them back they snipe your other players and become annoying, it's not a very good mechanic I don't think but it does appeal to the people who play sniper, despite annoying the hell out of everybody else. Whether or not it's a good mechanic more or less depends on whether it annoys more people than it appeals to, or to be more cynical, whether it annoys the person doing the review more than it appeals to them.
I don't actually like TF2 mind you, I find it annoying that no matter what class I play there is some other class which has a ridiculously huge advantage over me, like spies which WILL kill at least one of my buildings no matter how fast I am to shoot them, or demomen which WILL blow up the sentry because there is nothing I can do against the sticky bombs, or snipers who headshot me as a heavy, or heavies who have the anti-scout dustbuster as a main weapon, or classes which automatically set spies on fire if you get anywhere within their line of sight, or every class which outranges the pyro, or snipers which keep getting in the way of my sniping other players, or the complete mind-destroying mediocrity of the soldier.
TF2 basically feels like I'm not really required, you could more or less replace what I do with a simple if statement, based on what class I am, and what class the enemy I encounter is, and where I encounter them, and that determines my victory or loss.
People moan about TF2 too much. It is a fine. Also, demoman were more than deserving of their nerf.
Having clear objectives for players to fight for (marine grid system and alien dynamic infestation) will probably reduce the confusion that makes the game difficult to settle into. My usual response to making the game more fair for new players is giving more opportunity for support roles. It allows new players to observe more experienced players and learn the mechanics of the game in a more stress-free environment. Aliens have the gorge (who is no longer a main builder, thus, having more of them is a non-issue), but marines got nothing. : \
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
I think the best way to deal with this is sell 2 addons that would be compatible with the retail gaime- the first would be the Bigger Bites DLC and the second could be the Pew Pew Booster Pack DLC for the marines. Why not sell shark jaw upgrades or BFGs? If you want to win, you then can? It makes so much sense!
<!--quoteo(post=1734359:date=Oct 28 2009, 09:38 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 28 2009, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the point of the game is not to be successful and simply to enjoy playing it, then not requiring the players to be good at the game is not a flaw, because it is not neccesary for the enjoyment of the game.
It's like saying that the lack of strategy in a driving game is a flaw, if a game is designed to be fun regardless of skill then how skilled you are or are not becomes entirely irrelevant, just as how much strategy you employ in a game without strategy is irrelevant. A game is not required to be challenging, although many games do try to evoke enjoyment from being challenging, but as you said, tf2 does not use this as its sole basis for fun, so complaining that it isn't challenging when it isn't trying to be makes little sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1734335:date=Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most relevant thing I can add to this thread is Team Fortress 2. That is exactly how you do this right.
TF2 is such a success mainly because it appeal to all kinds of different players. Every kind of different appeal that you could find in an FPS game is present in there. You have something for twitch gamers, something for... well whatever you'd fit the Soldier in to (I'm terrible at twitch and therefore the scout, but I'm good at soldier, go figure). Support roles, cloak-and-dagger, etc. The game has it all. So no matter what you want in an FPS, there's something there for you to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of gamers have mentioned that they didn't like TF2 because it tried to cater too many styles of playing, staying somewhat indifferent in every one of them. Despite being well designed it really didn't create any spectacular feelings in me either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed), but generally a team with a good spread of classes (and therefore playstyles) will do better against a team that's lopsided in class division.
NS1 wasn't like this. If you played a marine, you'd better be good at twitch. Hell, as an alien you started as a skulk, you had to be good at twitch. You could go gorge on occasion (until you got banned because of TOO MANY GORGES OMG), but by and large, the team with the most twitch players was going to win, because that's all the game was about - hitscan weapons and fast reflexes with little else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS has got a plenty of roles too, they just aren't that obivious and require more game understanding than necessary. A marine can cap and protect nodes, build, guard the base routes and command even without any remarkable twitch skill. On aliens you can bite nodes, very much outsmart marines, gorge, sporelerk and be onos without any real twitch skill. If you ask me, the challenge lies in developing those roles further and making them more accessible in the first place.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fact is, as long as NS is shooting fast things with the twitchy LMG, the twitchy HMG, or the twitchy shotgun, or move quickly and bite things with the twitchy jaws or smack them with the twitchy claws, you aren't going to be able to level out that skill disparity - because <b>a lot of people just aren't good at twitch</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS tingles my mind because it's twitchy in a way. Should I have dodged instead of shooting? Should I have targeted the fade or lerk? Was it a good idea to position myself like that? How I can I reposition myself from here?
Pure mechanical skill isn't my thingy in general, but I love NS because it mixes up decisions and that skill. A flow of little things and quick decisions combined.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1734368:date=Oct 29 2009, 03:23 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 29 2009, 03:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong, a game is required to be challenging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're just back to what people want out of games. I want a challenging game(which means deep skill moves and strats), but I enjoy playing games sometimes that aren't that challenging as well. They don't hold my interest long and I hope NS2 doesn't take that route, but neither of you is really 'wrong'. <!--quoteo(post=1734370:date=Oct 29 2009, 03:51 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 29 2009, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pure mechanical skill isn't my thingy in general, but I love NS because it mixes up decisions and that skill. A flow of little things and quick decisions combined.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Completely agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1734370:date=Oct 29 2009, 07:51 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 29 2009, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS has got a plenty of roles too, they just aren't that obivious and require more game understanding than necessary. A marine can cap and protect nodes, build, guard the base routes and command even without any remarkable twitch skill. On aliens you can bite nodes, very much outsmart marines, gorge, sporelerk and be onos without any real twitch skill. If you ask me, the challenge lies in developing those roles further and making them more accessible in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're going to tell someone who's not good at twitch that they can still enjoy NS2 because they can eat undefended res nodes for an hour?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1734378:date=Oct 29 2009, 08:21 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're going to tell someone who's not good at twitch that they can still enjoy NS2 because they can eat undefended res nodes for an hour?
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the focus was more on "outsmart marines". If you have the jump on an opponent, killing them becomes much easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1734378:date=Oct 29 2009, 06:21 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're going to tell someone who's not good at twitch that they can still enjoy NS2 because they can eat undefended res nodes for an hour?
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like to switch between combat and resource denial on a regular basis. I've munched on nodes and buildings for several rounds in a row, and since an undefended node usually has a marine or two coming to stop me there's the ability to listen for their approach, knowing how long it takes to bite down and the ability to either make them go away or kill them to finish my job that makes it interesting even if it doesn't sound that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1734384:date=Oct 29 2009, 01:27 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 29 2009, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the focus was more on "outsmart marines". If you have the jump on an opponent, killing them becomes much easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, like getting the jump on an AFK marine, right?
Look my point is your suggestions for non-hardcore twitch spaz represents a fraction of a tiny slice of the pie of the game. 90% of the game revolves around the same universal set of FPS skills. In NS1, only two things were needed to kick ass as a marine - the ability to hit spacebar as fast as humanly possible whenever an alien showed up, and twitch aiming. Standing there and holding 'e' isn't really an interesting facet of being a marine. As a skulk, sure you have wall running and the whole 'jaws block view' thing to contend with, but ultimately it's the same thing - lightning-quick reflexes, not different at all from the skills needed to shoot said skulk with your LMG - is what it revolves around.
While marines you could shake up to provide different roles and abilities (for example, the skills required to use the grenade launcher are different from typical twitch (see my comment about TF2 Soldier earlier)) , aliens suffer from extremely limited variety, as they 'only' have 5 classes, and therefore need somewhere to upgrade to. Finally what also hurts changeup in alien playstyle is the restricted upgrade system. I've seen people banned for doing anything <i>except</i> D/M/S.
Non-twitch elements in NS:
- Commander Guy - Grenade Launcher Guy - Babysitter Guy (until he gets eaten because he can't aim).
- Onos - Gorge - Lerk (sorta - if you want to do anything except spam Umbra)
Now the key thing here is that: there's only one commander. You don't need more than one guy defending the base. And rarely will you have more than one guy with a grenade launcher. Conversely, rarely will you use the Onos (as it was pretty worthless last time I played), rarely you'll have more than one Lerk, and rarely will you have more than one or two Gorges.
In order to play the vast majority of the game, ie: kill enemies, you HAVE to be good at twitch. Yes, there are things that you COULD do if you aren't great at twitch, but none but the commander requires a unique set of skills. Any dingus can hold 'E' to build a building, or M1 to weld a vent. Back to TF2 - some people are great spies, some people are great scouts, some people are great demomen. All three require unique skills, and are not 'skill capped' as some may say. The only unique skill required in NS that differs from twitch is Commanding.
<!--quoteo(post=1734378:date=Oct 29 2009, 12:21 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're going to tell someone who's not good at twitch that they can still enjoy NS2 because they can eat undefended res nodes for an hour?
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if you want to ignore the rest and focus on the dullest sounding one and emphasize the worst case scenario of it...
And even then I've had pretty decent time on developing my game awarness to know which node to bite and when, how long I'll bite it and how do I guard the entrances efficiently when necessary. And I'm a twitch gamer by heart. I'm not saying it's the most exciting part of the game, but you certainly can find enjoyment in learning and improving it. The same goes for marine capping.
As for your latest post, I don't think arguments like "Spamming space" get you anywhere in marine game or in this discussion.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1734398:date=Oct 29 2009, 11:51 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In order to play the vast majority of the game, ie: kill enemies, you HAVE to be good at twitch. Yes, there are things that you COULD do if you aren't great at twitch, but none but the commander requires a unique set of skills. Any dingus can hold 'E' to build a building, or M1 to weld a vent. Back to TF2 - some people are great spies, some people are great scouts, some people are great demomen. All three require unique skills, and are not 'skill capped' as some may say. The only unique skill required in NS that differs from twitch is Commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> B.S. Playing lerk requires a different set of skills from fade, from skulk, from jetpack. The aliens don't even have guns; how is that requiring the same skills at all? You're cherry picking words and scenarios. Strawmen sure are fun to build but they're not worth believing in. Sure the aliens and rines require twitch skill, but they also require other skills. <!--quoteo(post=1733434:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:44 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1734403:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:27 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 29 2009, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B.S. Playing lerk requires a different set of skills from fade, from skulk, from jetpack. The aliens don't even have guns; how is that requiring the same skills at all? You're cherry picking words and scenarios. Strawmen sure are fun to build but they're not worth believing in. Sure the aliens and rines require twitch skill, but they also require other skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'm "cherry picking" scenarios. Here's a couple. Every marine except the commander will be using a gun for almost the entire game. <b>Fact</b>.
The two offensive and therefore most common alien archetypes in NS are the Skulk and Fade, and the primary means of attack for both of them require twitch. <b>Fact</b>.
Cherry pick *THAT*. And bore me less in the future. Are you arguing because you have a real point, or are you arguing because you just want to argue? I'll reiterate my original point - NS has an extremely high reliance on twitch skills to play well. Unless you find a way to spread the skill pie into different (and not necessarily 'worse' or 'better') skills, you'll never fix this skill disparity problem. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. It exists in almost every game that relies purely on just one type of gameplay - hell it exists in NS, that's why we have this damn thread.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool, didn't realize you were channeling the word of god to us here in the forums. What exactly does that change? All I see when I read that jibberyjoo is a shameless plug for how "SK1LLZ0RZ" bunnyhopping is. And thanks for reinforcing this point:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another problem I had noticed over the years is that because NS attracted a lot of twitch gamers, they want the game to just STAY twitch because that's what THEY'RE good at. Thus we arrive at what I perceive is the selfish, moronic crux of the entire 'TEH SKILLZ0RZ' arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There we go. I assume you have good twitch aim, and I assume you can bunnyhop (I guess "skill move" is like saying "Intelligent Design" vs. "Creationism"), so therefore you define that as "skill". Therefore, nothing else CAN be skill, or perhaps, everything else is UNskilled. Which one is it? Are you so narrow minded that you cannot possibly imagine anything in a game besides antiquated, boring, unimaginative gameplay concepts dating back to the 1990s?
So why did you make this thread if you're going to argue with me about the skill disparity I'm saying exists? Am I getting a little too real for you?
Let's go back to the Tribes example just in case you don't understand what I mean by 'spreading the skill around'.
You needed to know energy management, heat management, jetpack use, and skiing, and have far more situational awareness than you do in NS. However if you weren't good at this, you could play as a Juggernaut, that didn't really use the jetpack very much. Someone else boated you around, you jumped out, and then proceeded to rock asses. In addition, skiing in T2 changed from T1. It originally was a bug that came about of spamming jump while sliding down a hill. They changed it so all you had to do was hold space to do it in Tribes 2 - it kept the ACTUAL skill required to ski (planning routes, using terrain) and removed the asinine requirement to spam a key to do it. <i>(There's probably an analogy to NS somewhere in there but I can't see what... huh.)</i>
You also had a slew of weapons, each with their own niche use, each with fairly unique skills required for each one. Using a grenade launcher was nothing like using a spinfusor, which was nothing like using an ELF or shocklance. Basically, just because you couldn't use a spinfusor very well didn't mean you would be crippled in combat - you had a dozen other weapons to find one you were good at.
But let's say you couldn't aim for ###### anyway. Grab a vehicle. Be an interceptor pilot, a bomber/dropship pilot, or a tank driver. Or man the tailgun slot in a bomber and use the lockon missile launcher, throw flares, and jam sensors.
Even if you were terrible at all three of those, there was still an extremely vast support role in the game. Tending to the base is one thing, but you can go set up an MFB, build remote repair stations, set up a sensor network, and construct turrets.
A good dropship pilot would grab the heavies, boat them to the enemy base, they'd knock out the generators, the interceptor pilots would fly cover or just taxi to the base and bail, grab the flag, and skeet with it. Basically, there was something in that game for everyone. Everything was nearly just as important as something else, there was no 'best' way to play, and the best teamwork involved everyone helping each other with their own unique skills.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm "cherry picking" scenarios. Here's a couple. Every marine except the commander will be using a gun for almost the entire game. <b>Fact</b>.
The two offensive and therefore most common alien archetypes in NS are the Skulk and Fade, and the primary means of attack for both of them require twitch. <b>Fact</b>.
Cherry pick *THAT*. And bore me less in the future. Are you arguing because you have a real point, or are you arguing because you just want to argue? I'll reiterate my original point - NS has an extremely high reliance on twitch skills to play well. Unless you find a way to spread the skill pie into different (and not necessarily 'worse' or 'better') skills, you'll never fix this skill disparity problem. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. It exists in almost every game that relies purely on just one type of gameplay - hell it exists in NS, that's why we have this damn thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all calm down. Raging will not help you get your point across. My point, which you didn't care to read and called "jibbery joo" is that while twitch skill is important it is not the only skill used while playing. I'm disagreeing that NS1 relies on one type of gameplay. <!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There we go. I assume you have good twitch aim, and I assume you can bunnyhop (I guess "skill move" is like saying "Intelligent Design" vs. "Creationism"), so therefore you define that as "skill". Therefore, nothing else CAN be skill, or perhaps, everything else is UNskilled. Which one is it? Are you so narrow minded that you cannot possibly imagine anything in a game besides antiquated, boring, unimaginative gameplay concepts dating back to the 1990s?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny to hear you attribute this all to me because that's not how I think at all. There are plenty of posters on this forum that would gladly take up that mantle. It's ironic that you picked one of the ones who does not. <!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why did you make this thread if you're going to argue with me about the skill disparity I'm saying exists? Am I getting a little too real for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man, maybe you are too real for me. Or maybe I'm trying to extend the conversation beyond "all twitch gameplay is bad". <!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't play tribes much so I can't speak to it much. From your description is sounds like it has more roles than NS1. However, you criticize NS1 unfairly by claiming the only thing a non twitch gamer can do is bite RTs, especially when <b>Bacillus</b> listed several different things. That's the cherry picking I was referring to.
Just gonna wade in quickly to say that the Mariokart (64) examples could be gamed to hell and back. Penultimate lap, hold back in 3rd or a tight 4th and get that Star or Blue Shell. Use your driving skill to get back into 2nd place and then unleash the suddenly overpowered power-up on the frontrunner as they're making that critical jump to assure victory. When designing something that comes easy for backrunners you have to really scrutinise how it comes into their hands because ultimately hardcore players will exploit your script for maximum benefit.
Look at MarioKart on the SNES and it's really damn hard for a newcomer to get close to a victory on a single race. It's a stupidly huge learning curve. Even playing a 2-player cup the newcomer won't make it to the final race because they lose all their lives. Nowadays the gaming landscape has changed: there's a lot more choice out there and less time to play each game so it pays to make games more accessible, but a Blue Shell is not generally the best solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1734451:date=Oct 30 2009, 12:47 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Oct 30 2009, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just gonna wade in quickly to say that the Mariokart (64) examples could be gamed to hell and back. Penultimate lap, hold back in 3rd or a tight 4th and get that Star or Blue Shell. Use your driving skill to get back into 2nd place and then unleash the suddenly overpowered power-up on the frontrunner as they're making that critical jump to assure victory. When designing something that comes easy for backrunners you have to really scrutinise how it comes into their hands because ultimately hardcore players will exploit your script for maximum benefit.
Look at MarioKart on the SNES and it's really damn hard for a newcomer to get close to a victory on a single race. It's a stupidly huge learning curve. Even playing a 2-player cup the newcomer won't make it to the final race because they lose all their lives. Nowadays the gaming landscape has changed: there's a lot more choice out there and less time to play each game so it pays to make games more accessible, but a Blue Shell is not generally the best solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure who you're responding to, but I'm not saying there should be handicaps or EZ Mode or something. As I've been saying, the problem stems from the fact that the majority of gameplay in NS all depends on the same tiny set of skills, so you've got a minority of 'haves' and a majority of 'have nots'. By expanding the game to allow room for different skill sets you allow more 'haves'. TF2 expanded it to the point where everyone is a 'have'. Even if you play worse than my grandfather, well, the most essential class in the game is also the easiest (medic). I'm not saying we need to go to that extreme either. Just that providing a <i>realistic</i>, engaging way of playing the game in a format that doesn't require excessive twitch skills <b>or</b> being at an unfair level versus twitch gamers.
<!--quoteo(post=1734444:date=Oct 29 2009, 11:49 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 29 2009, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all calm down. Raging will not help you get your point across. My point, which you didn't care to read and called "jibbery joo" is that while twitch skill is important it is not the only skill used while playing. I'm disagreeing that NS1 relies on one type of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said twitch was the only thing in NS. I *DID* and still say that twitch is the overwhelmingly most important skill.
Really, the guy who can outaim the other guy is going to win.
So I just read this whole thread. It would be really cool if people could learn how to choose their words. Constructing long and elaborate sentences to create a novel doesn't make you sound smart or help get your point across.
From my experiences I think there are two types of games. Those that put either individual skill or teamwork over the other. Yes, often times both skill sets incredibly important but at some point one will override the other. I view TF2 as a game where teamwork will override individual skill and I think a lot of games are headed in this direction. In my opinion, this sucks because there are often game mechanics that randomly put one player at an advantage over the other, such as TF2's crits, so skill is neutralized to ensure teamplay rules all. And it really just boils down to your opinion.
NS1 is a game where, while teamwork is important, individual skill can override the teamwork side. Before everyone goes crazy and disagrees, I'm speaking from the perspective that the game has the intended amount of players and not these huge servers we see near the end of NS1's life. I think this because NS1 does focus on twitch skill to the point where an individual marine of sufficient skill and easily and consistently take on many skulks. Granted, an individual will rarely win a game of NS in a single move but by consistently getting more kills they will either allow themselves or their team to tech faster.
However, I don't view this as the problem as there are many successful games that rely on twitch skill where players don't feel outskilled or frustrated. The problem, which homicide and snooggums pointed out on page 1, is the player base and matchmaking. First a game must have a healthy playerbase so players at least have the option of finding similar skilled players. Second, once there's a decent playerbase it should be easy for players to join a server with similar skilled players if they want to. For NS2 the best solution is to create some feature that allows server admins to self-label their servers. Labels such as Noobs, Casuals, Intermediates, and then Competitive or Professionals would work.
Comments
Right, but that higher level is usually attained by the competitive community anyway and the competitive community doesn't allow crits or random damage spread. Therefore, if the depth is there, then there should be incentive to improve again.
Ignoring the objective happens all the time, it takes one ignorant terrorist or a pluginless server and you've got the opening. It's also damn boring to wait all round long for the other team's iniative on public game, so it's a safe assumption someone will walk into your position even if you were supposed to be the aggressive one.
K : D > 1 shouldn't be too difficult if you've got a suitable play style and a decent advisor. I've seen absolutely terrible players going K:D 3+ if they just have fragging as their only target. Most decent players just don't bother playing careful on public games.
The closest to a 'fair game' will probably be competitive play against equally skilled teams.
You should probably take a second read of this thread. The discussion is primarily over the system being fair to players and not over players being fair to other players. In the context of games, a well constructed systems uses incentives and disincentives in order to create situations in which the choice that benefits the team most is the same choice that benefits the player most. The heart of the discussion is around skill ceilings, game depth, and balance but that doesn't inherently mean 'fairness' as the goal of each individual's playing motivation towards others is what is even being discussed.
I realize I may be a bit late to this but I find this comparison to be a bit of bull. There aren't teams of professionals playing on public fields where new people may come to play and get completely owned. Whereas in online games, that's exactly what happens. There's a server that a new player picks due to good pings and amount of players (usually) and who's in that server is completely random. There's a reason there are leagues in sports and why they separate them by skill base.
You can't really split the community into leagues, though. Which is why it's important to take these steps to at least try and give some enjoyment to the player on the losing end of an ass kicking. Ragdolls, death animations, dismemberment- All things that are a result of you being killed that I personally love to watch happen in games. There's nothing more fun (in my opinion) than being killed by a grenade in RO (Red Orchestra) and explaining to my friends what happened to my body.
I think an easy goal is to make dieing something that can be humorous/gruesome/crazy to the deceased. TF2* did this with special death animations and it really makes dieing, less of a "suck" moment.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*By mentioning TF2, I in no way suggest that we turn NS2 into a cartoon shooter full of silly/stupid guns, sounds, animations, etc... such as TF2.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
For NS2, I'd suggest this might manifest itself in default play having a larger amount of chance within it.. thus its more forgiving to those players who don't have the inclination to continually practice to get better, but rather just want to get in and play for a bit without being repeatedly dominated, while competitive play mode have some changes that lessen this randomness.
What that randomness might be, I don't know, but I think TF2 had it right in that they made it obvious when it was happening.
I haven't been able to sort through the postings enough to find team sizes, does anyone know if there will be a similar range of team sizes or if the game play is supposed to scale with the team sizes?
TF2 is such a success mainly because it appeal to all kinds of different players. Every kind of different appeal that you could find in an FPS game is present in there. You have something for twitch gamers, something for... well whatever you'd fit the Soldier in to (I'm terrible at twitch and therefore the scout, but I'm good at soldier, go figure). Support roles, cloak-and-dagger, etc. The game has it all. So no matter what you want in an FPS, there's something there for you to do.
Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed), but generally a team with a good spread of classes (and therefore playstyles) will do better against a team that's lopsided in class division.
NS1 wasn't like this. If you played a marine, you'd better be good at twitch. Hell, as an alien you started as a skulk, you had to be good at twitch. You could go gorge on occasion (until you got banned because of TOO MANY GORGES OMG), but by and large, the team with the most twitch players was going to win, because that's all the game was about - hitscan weapons and fast reflexes with little else.
Dumbing down the game isn't the solution. Light-up paths and voiceover tutorials other silly ###### like that isn't going to change a damn thing. And neither is throwing around the word 'skill' like it's the definitive be-all answer to everything. OH sure you could say the Scout that's jumping through the base and splattercannon's a demo in the face is skilled, but what about the Medic who's not died the entire match, and is on his fifth uber? If we subscribed to NS1's idolization of 'teh sk1llz', the medic is ###### and therefore we shouldn't care about him - all hail the scout. Christ, the meterstick by which to measure skill around here was your ability to bunnyhop or not (thus all discussions about bunnyhop revolved around 'skill' when that's not the point at all).
I'll take another game - Battlefield 2142. Again, it offers quite a few different ways to play. Not as varied as TF2, but you also don't need to be Twitchshot McKillfast. Engineers are pretty easy to play, hell you can be Assault and spend the whole game with the defibrillator in your hands - you're not any less useful and just as valuable as the guy who's smearing guys with his pistol. If you're not great at aiming, grab a bigass machine gun and lay down some lead.
If you really want to find a definitive way of appealing to multiple players without lame things like handicaps or matchmaking (*shudder*) you design your game to be accessible in those ways. Even Tribes had a hundred different ways to play, and that game wasn't "dumbed down" in the slightest. Blow up people with the spinfusor, or strap your butt in the back of a bomber, all useful, but not all rely on the same skillset.
Fact is, as long as NS is shooting fast things with the twitchy LMG, the twitchy HMG, or the twitchy shotgun, or move quickly and bite things with the twitchy jaws or smack them with the twitchy claws, you aren't going to be able to level out that skill disparity - because <b>a lot of people just aren't good at twitch</b>.
TF2 got boring to me for a couple reasons - one was the lack of quality maps, and two was Valve's ham-fisted approach to balance (for example, neutering the demoman). I can also understand not enjoying the relatively straightforward approach to it, but that doesn't change my original point - many of the most successful FPS games integrated different ways to play depending on what you liked, how good you were, or just what you felt like doing that day. There was many a time where I passed up a game of NS because the high-level intensity was just too prevalent. I think it was in the L4D commentary that Valve pointed out (actually I think it's somewhere in ALL commentary) that it's simple fatigue. Keep a player riding a high moment for too long and they start to get tired of it.
Looking back I did find myself playing NS in waves. A week or two on, a week or two off - and I think it was due, in part, because aside from commanding which I was too horribly inept at, well, the game just got stale sometimes because you'd find yourself in a rut. There wasn't enough in there that was dramatically dissimilar from the rest. Taking the same nodes the same way every time, taking the same upgrades, D/M/S path, etc. The game almost just became formulaic. When I quit NS1 for good it was for two reasons. I despised the direction NS 3.0 went and, as a whole, the game had just completely lost its ability to entertain me. I played Tribes for years before NS, and I continued to play it throughout, simply because Tribes refused to ever get old due to the staggering variety it exhibited.
This is all digressing from my original point though - the best way to attract and keep new blood isn't to try to convert them into spastic twitch gamers (because that won't happen) but to simply offer them something BESIDES twitch. Because as-is, the only way to play and really enjoy NS is to have the reflexes of an 8 year old on an energy drink binge. And I'll probably regret this, but another problem I had noticed over the years is that because NS attracted a lot of twitch gamers, they want the game to just STAY twitch because that's what THEY'RE good at. Thus we arrive at what I perceive is the selfish, moronic crux of the entire 'TEH SKILLZ0RZ' arguments.
Now I can't see NS2 fostering a low-skill community, especially from playing only on public servers where the skill level is pretty damn high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the point of the game is not to be successful and simply to enjoy playing it, then not requiring the players to be good at the game is not a flaw, because it is not neccesary for the enjoyment of the game.
It's like saying that the lack of strategy in a driving game is a flaw, if a game is designed to be fun regardless of skill then how skilled you are or are not becomes entirely irrelevant, just as how much strategy you employ in a game without strategy is irrelevant. A game is not required to be challenging, although many games do try to evoke enjoyment from being challenging, but as you said, tf2 does not use this as its sole basis for fun, so complaining that it isn't challenging when it isn't trying to be makes little sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1734335:date=Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need snipers to kill snipers, you could remove snipers from the game and it wouldn't suffer, but as long as they are in the game they are needed, because if you don't snipe them back they snipe your other players and become annoying, it's not a very good mechanic I don't think but it does appeal to the people who play sniper, despite annoying the hell out of everybody else. Whether or not it's a good mechanic more or less depends on whether it annoys more people than it appeals to, or to be more cynical, whether it annoys the person doing the review more than it appeals to them.
I don't actually like TF2 mind you, I find it annoying that no matter what class I play there is some other class which has a ridiculously huge advantage over me, like spies which WILL kill at least one of my buildings no matter how fast I am to shoot them, or demomen which WILL blow up the sentry because there is nothing I can do against the sticky bombs, or snipers who headshot me as a heavy, or heavies who have the anti-scout dustbuster as a main weapon, or classes which automatically set spies on fire if you get anywhere within their line of sight, or every class which outranges the pyro, or snipers which keep getting in the way of my sniping other players, or the complete mind-destroying mediocrity of the soldier.
TF2 basically feels like I'm not really required, you could more or less replace what I do with a simple if statement, based on what class I am, and what class the enemy I encounter is, and where I encounter them, and that determines my victory or loss.
Having clear objectives for players to fight for (marine grid system and alien dynamic infestation) will probably reduce the confusion that makes the game difficult to settle into. My usual response to making the game more fair for new players is giving more opportunity for support roles. It allows new players to observe more experienced players and learn the mechanics of the game in a more stress-free environment. Aliens have the gorge (who is no longer a main builder, thus, having more of them is a non-issue), but marines got nothing. : \
It's like saying that the lack of strategy in a driving game is a flaw, if a game is designed to be fun regardless of skill then how skilled you are or are not becomes entirely irrelevant, just as how much strategy you employ in a game without strategy is irrelevant. A game is not required to be challenging, although many games do try to evoke enjoyment from being challenging, but as you said, tf2 does not use this as its sole basis for fun, so complaining that it isn't challenging when it isn't trying to be makes little sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, a game is required to be challenging.
TF2 is such a success mainly because it appeal to all kinds of different players. Every kind of different appeal that you could find in an FPS game is present in there. You have something for twitch gamers, something for... well whatever you'd fit the Soldier in to (I'm terrible at twitch and therefore the scout, but I'm good at soldier, go figure). Support roles, cloak-and-dagger, etc. The game has it all. So no matter what you want in an FPS, there's something there for you to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of gamers have mentioned that they didn't like TF2 because it tried to cater too many styles of playing, staying somewhat indifferent in every one of them. Despite being well designed it really didn't create any spectacular feelings in me either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, all roles are useful. Some more than others (and okay, snipers are NEVER needed), but generally a team with a good spread of classes (and therefore playstyles) will do better against a team that's lopsided in class division.
NS1 wasn't like this. If you played a marine, you'd better be good at twitch. Hell, as an alien you started as a skulk, you had to be good at twitch. You could go gorge on occasion (until you got banned because of TOO MANY GORGES OMG), but by and large, the team with the most twitch players was going to win, because that's all the game was about - hitscan weapons and fast reflexes with little else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS has got a plenty of roles too, they just aren't that obivious and require more game understanding than necessary. A marine can cap and protect nodes, build, guard the base routes and command even without any remarkable twitch skill. On aliens you can bite nodes, very much outsmart marines, gorge, sporelerk and be onos without any real twitch skill. If you ask me, the challenge lies in developing those roles further and making them more accessible in the first place.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fact is, as long as NS is shooting fast things with the twitchy LMG, the twitchy HMG, or the twitchy shotgun, or move quickly and bite things with the twitchy jaws or smack them with the twitchy claws, you aren't going to be able to level out that skill disparity - because <b>a lot of people just aren't good at twitch</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS tingles my mind because it's twitchy in a way. Should I have dodged instead of shooting? Should I have targeted the fade or lerk? Was it a good idea to position myself like that? How I can I reposition myself from here?
Pure mechanical skill isn't my thingy in general, but I love NS because it mixes up decisions and that skill. A flow of little things and quick decisions combined.
We're just back to what people want out of games. I want a challenging game(which means deep skill moves and strats), but I enjoy playing games sometimes that aren't that challenging as well. They don't hold my interest long and I hope NS2 doesn't take that route, but neither of you is really 'wrong'.
<!--quoteo(post=1734370:date=Oct 29 2009, 03:51 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 29 2009, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pure mechanical skill isn't my thingy in general, but I love NS because it mixes up decisions and that skill. A flow of little things and quick decisions combined.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree.
You're going to tell someone who's not good at twitch that they can still enjoy NS2 because they can eat undefended res nodes for an hour?
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the focus was more on "outsmart marines". If you have the jump on an opponent, killing them becomes much easier.
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like to switch between combat and resource denial on a regular basis. I've munched on nodes and buildings for several rounds in a row, and since an undefended node usually has a marine or two coming to stop me there's the ability to listen for their approach, knowing how long it takes to bite down and the ability to either make them go away or kill them to finish my job that makes it interesting even if it doesn't sound that way.
Yeah, like getting the jump on an AFK marine, right?
Look my point is your suggestions for non-hardcore twitch spaz represents a fraction of a tiny slice of the pie of the game. 90% of the game revolves around the same universal set of FPS skills. In NS1, only two things were needed to kick ass as a marine - the ability to hit spacebar as fast as humanly possible whenever an alien showed up, and twitch aiming. Standing there and holding 'e' isn't really an interesting facet of being a marine. As a skulk, sure you have wall running and the whole 'jaws block view' thing to contend with, but ultimately it's the same thing - lightning-quick reflexes, not different at all from the skills needed to shoot said skulk with your LMG - is what it revolves around.
While marines you could shake up to provide different roles and abilities (for example, the skills required to use the grenade launcher are different from typical twitch (see my comment about TF2 Soldier earlier)) , aliens suffer from extremely limited variety, as they 'only' have 5 classes, and therefore need somewhere to upgrade to. Finally what also hurts changeup in alien playstyle is the restricted upgrade system. I've seen people banned for doing anything <i>except</i> D/M/S.
Non-twitch elements in NS:
- Commander Guy
- Grenade Launcher Guy
- Babysitter Guy (until he gets eaten because he can't aim).
- Onos
- Gorge
- Lerk (sorta - if you want to do anything except spam Umbra)
Now the key thing here is that: there's only one commander. You don't need more than one guy defending the base. And rarely will you have more than one guy with a grenade launcher. Conversely, rarely will you use the Onos (as it was pretty worthless last time I played), rarely you'll have more than one Lerk, and rarely will you have more than one or two Gorges.
In order to play the vast majority of the game, ie: kill enemies, you HAVE to be good at twitch. Yes, there are things that you COULD do if you aren't great at twitch, but none but the commander requires a unique set of skills. Any dingus can hold 'E' to build a building, or M1 to weld a vent. Back to TF2 - some people are great spies, some people are great scouts, some people are great demomen. All three require unique skills, and are not 'skill capped' as some may say. The only unique skill required in NS that differs from twitch is Commanding.
Yeah. Sounds like a <i>blast</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you want to ignore the rest and focus on the dullest sounding one and emphasize the worst case scenario of it...
And even then I've had pretty decent time on developing my game awarness to know which node to bite and when, how long I'll bite it and how do I guard the entrances efficiently when necessary. And I'm a twitch gamer by heart. I'm not saying it's the most exciting part of the game, but you certainly can find enjoyment in learning and improving it. The same goes for marine capping.
As for your latest post, I don't think arguments like "Spamming space" get you anywhere in marine game or in this discussion.
B.S. Playing lerk requires a different set of skills from fade, from skulk, from jetpack. The aliens don't even have guns; how is that requiring the same skills at all? You're cherry picking words and scenarios. Strawmen sure are fun to build but they're not worth believing in. Sure the aliens and rines require twitch skill, but they also require other skills.
<!--quoteo(post=1733434:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:44 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'm "cherry picking" scenarios. Here's a couple. Every marine except the commander will be using a gun for almost the entire game. <b>Fact</b>.
The two offensive and therefore most common alien archetypes in NS are the Skulk and Fade, and the primary means of attack for both of them require twitch. <b>Fact</b>.
Cherry pick *THAT*. And bore me less in the future. Are you arguing because you have a real point, or are you arguing because you just want to argue? I'll reiterate my original point - NS has an extremely high reliance on twitch skills to play well. Unless you find a way to spread the skill pie into different (and not necessarily 'worse' or 'better') skills, you'll never fix this skill disparity problem. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. It exists in almost every game that relies purely on just one type of gameplay - hell it exists in NS, that's why we have this damn thread.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skill is an aggregate(in no particular order) of twitch reflexes(aim), conditioned reflexes(skill moves), combat awareness(tactical decisions), and situation awareness(strategic decisions).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool, didn't realize you were channeling the word of god to us here in the forums. What exactly does that change? All I see when I read that jibberyjoo is a shameless plug for how "SK1LLZ0RZ" bunnyhopping is. And thanks for reinforcing this point:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another problem I had noticed over the years is that because NS attracted a lot of twitch gamers, they want the game to just STAY twitch because that's what THEY'RE good at. Thus we arrive at what I perceive is the selfish, moronic crux of the entire 'TEH SKILLZ0RZ' arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There we go. I assume you have good twitch aim, and I assume you can bunnyhop (I guess "skill move" is like saying "Intelligent Design" vs. "Creationism"), so therefore you define that as "skill". Therefore, nothing else CAN be skill, or perhaps, everything else is UNskilled. Which one is it? Are you so narrow minded that you cannot possibly imagine anything in a game besides antiquated, boring, unimaginative gameplay concepts dating back to the 1990s?
So why did you make this thread if you're going to argue with me about the skill disparity I'm saying exists? Am I getting a little too real for you?
Let's go back to the Tribes example just in case you don't understand what I mean by 'spreading the skill around'.
You needed to know energy management, heat management, jetpack use, and skiing, and have far more situational awareness than you do in NS. However if you weren't good at this, you could play as a Juggernaut, that didn't really use the jetpack very much. Someone else boated you around, you jumped out, and then proceeded to rock asses. In addition, skiing in T2 changed from T1. It originally was a bug that came about of spamming jump while sliding down a hill. They changed it so all you had to do was hold space to do it in Tribes 2 - it kept the ACTUAL skill required to ski (planning routes, using terrain) and removed the asinine requirement to spam a key to do it. <i>(There's probably an analogy to NS somewhere in there but I can't see what... huh.)</i>
You also had a slew of weapons, each with their own niche use, each with fairly unique skills required for each one. Using a grenade launcher was nothing like using a spinfusor, which was nothing like using an ELF or shocklance. Basically, just because you couldn't use a spinfusor very well didn't mean you would be crippled in combat - you had a dozen other weapons to find one you were good at.
But let's say you couldn't aim for ###### anyway. Grab a vehicle. Be an interceptor pilot, a bomber/dropship pilot, or a tank driver. Or man the tailgun slot in a bomber and use the lockon missile launcher, throw flares, and jam sensors.
Even if you were terrible at all three of those, there was still an extremely vast support role in the game. Tending to the base is one thing, but you can go set up an MFB, build remote repair stations, set up a sensor network, and construct turrets.
A good dropship pilot would grab the heavies, boat them to the enemy base, they'd knock out the generators, the interceptor pilots would fly cover or just taxi to the base and bail, grab the flag, and skeet with it. Basically, there was something in that game for everyone. Everything was nearly just as important as something else, there was no 'best' way to play, and the best teamwork involved everyone helping each other with their own unique skills.
The two offensive and therefore most common alien archetypes in NS are the Skulk and Fade, and the primary means of attack for both of them require twitch. <b>Fact</b>.
Cherry pick *THAT*. And bore me less in the future. Are you arguing because you have a real point, or are you arguing because you just want to argue? I'll reiterate my original point - NS has an extremely high reliance on twitch skills to play well. Unless you find a way to spread the skill pie into different (and not necessarily 'worse' or 'better') skills, you'll never fix this skill disparity problem. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. It exists in almost every game that relies purely on just one type of gameplay - hell it exists in NS, that's why we have this damn thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all calm down. Raging will not help you get your point across. My point, which you didn't care to read and called "jibbery joo" is that while twitch skill is important it is not the only skill used while playing. I'm disagreeing that NS1 relies on one type of gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There we go. I assume you have good twitch aim, and I assume you can bunnyhop (I guess "skill move" is like saying "Intelligent Design" vs. "Creationism"), so therefore you define that as "skill". Therefore, nothing else CAN be skill, or perhaps, everything else is UNskilled. Which one is it? Are you so narrow minded that you cannot possibly imagine anything in a game besides antiquated, boring, unimaginative gameplay concepts dating back to the 1990s?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny to hear you attribute this all to me because that's not how I think at all. There are plenty of posters on this forum that would gladly take up that mantle. It's ironic that you picked one of the ones who does not.
<!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why did you make this thread if you're going to argue with me about the skill disparity I'm saying exists? Am I getting a little too real for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh man, maybe you are too real for me. Or maybe I'm trying to extend the conversation beyond "all twitch gameplay is bad".
<!--quoteo(post=1734432:date=Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 29 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't play tribes much so I can't speak to it much. From your description is sounds like it has more roles than NS1. However, you criticize NS1 unfairly by claiming the only thing a non twitch gamer can do is bite RTs, especially when <b>Bacillus</b> listed several different things. That's the cherry picking I was referring to.
Look at MarioKart on the SNES and it's really damn hard for a newcomer to get close to a victory on a single race. It's a stupidly huge learning curve. Even playing a 2-player cup the newcomer won't make it to the final race because they lose all their lives. Nowadays the gaming landscape has changed: there's a lot more choice out there and less time to play each game so it pays to make games more accessible, but a Blue Shell is not generally the best solution.
Look at MarioKart on the SNES and it's really damn hard for a newcomer to get close to a victory on a single race. It's a stupidly huge learning curve. Even playing a 2-player cup the newcomer won't make it to the final race because they lose all their lives. Nowadays the gaming landscape has changed: there's a lot more choice out there and less time to play each game so it pays to make games more accessible, but a Blue Shell is not generally the best solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure who you're responding to, but I'm not saying there should be handicaps or EZ Mode or something. As I've been saying, the problem stems from the fact that the majority of gameplay in NS all depends on the same tiny set of skills, so you've got a minority of 'haves' and a majority of 'have nots'. By expanding the game to allow room for different skill sets you allow more 'haves'. TF2 expanded it to the point where everyone is a 'have'. Even if you play worse than my grandfather, well, the most essential class in the game is also the easiest (medic). I'm not saying we need to go to that extreme either. Just that providing a <i>realistic</i>, engaging way of playing the game in a format that doesn't require excessive twitch skills <b>or</b> being at an unfair level versus twitch gamers.
I never said twitch was the only thing in NS. I *DID* and still say that twitch is the overwhelmingly most important skill.
Really, the guy who can outaim the other guy is going to win.
From my experiences I think there are two types of games. Those that put either individual skill or teamwork over the other. Yes, often times both skill sets incredibly important but at some point one will override the other. I view TF2 as a game where teamwork will override individual skill and I think a lot of games are headed in this direction. In my opinion, this sucks because there are often game mechanics that randomly put one player at an advantage over the other, such as TF2's crits, so skill is neutralized to ensure teamplay rules all. And it really just boils down to your opinion.
NS1 is a game where, while teamwork is important, individual skill can override the teamwork side. Before everyone goes crazy and disagrees, I'm speaking from the perspective that the game has the intended amount of players and not these huge servers we see near the end of NS1's life. I think this because NS1 does focus on twitch skill to the point where an individual marine of sufficient skill and easily and consistently take on many skulks. Granted, an individual will rarely win a game of NS in a single move but by consistently getting more kills they will either allow themselves or their team to tech faster.
However, I don't view this as the problem as there are many successful games that rely on twitch skill where players don't feel outskilled or frustrated. The problem, which homicide and snooggums pointed out on page 1, is the player base and matchmaking. First a game must have a healthy playerbase so players at least have the option of finding similar skilled players. Second, once there's a decent playerbase it should be easy for players to join a server with similar skilled players if they want to. For NS2 the best solution is to create some feature that allows server admins to self-label their servers. Labels such as Noobs, Casuals, Intermediates, and then Competitive or Professionals would work.