<!--quoteo(post=1736671:date=Nov 7 2009, 11:13 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haze @ Nov 7 2009, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The small-yet-fast nature of NS1 Skulks made them frustrating and unimpressive for new players to experience: "What was that blur-thing that just killed me? How am I supposed to hit that? How come it's so small but kills so many of us?" And then when the shoe's on the other foot: "How am I supposed to kill a gun-totting Marine and his buddies when I die to a stray fart?" There weren't any issues with the gameplay of the Skulk -- in fact it was pretty spot on for what the Skulk was -- but it's time for a change, because the old Skulk is simply underwhelming and not nearly as awesome as this new beast we've been presented with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The awesomeness of this depends on viewpoint. In general my approach is that a skulk doing 360 spiral at insane speeds just makes me go "Whoa, I wanna learn to do that and track that!". It's my general idea of gaming that I want to face seemingly impossible tasks and then overcome any obstacles learning it. On the other hand a lot of gamers just seem to be frustrated with such stuff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The new Skulk is clearly meant to strike a balance between both new and old players alike. Why do you think that it's larger, slower, has more HP, <i>but has hive one leap?</i> New players are going to find the new Skulk easier to hit as a Marine due to the increased size, easier to kill with as an Alien due to the increased health, and more fun to experience from both ends of the spectrum because <i><u>it just plain looks <b>way</b> cooler</u></i> (and it's more satisfying to shoot than tissue-paper Skulks). Old, skilled players are going to have a lot of fun with hive one leap to make up for being slower and larger target. I mean, look at the Hunter's wall jump in L4D -- new players are kind of clumsy with it, but experienced players will make your jaw hit the floor with how easily they can fling themselves about the map, making themselves VERY difficult-to-hit targets. Size isn't everything!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Against a decent marine a celerity leapskulk often wasn't hard enough to hit. I don't completely see how my jaw is going to hit the ground with bigger and clumsier alien than NS1 had. The leaping could be awesome, but I really haven't seen any indication of more dodging abilities as you're implifying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember everyone trying to stack Marines because no one really wanted to play the small, fragile, tiny Aliens? Don't think for a second that such a trend went unnoticed by the developers -- kiss those days goodbye with <i>Dieselfied</i> Skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People don't want to play the aliens because of horrible res model, slightly underdog skulks (which could be altered in many ways, size increase being one) and the requisite for a few people capable of teamworking. Having a bigger skulk is a partitial solution to learning curve issues, but I can also see it turning people away from the public alien team if it's not as imaginative and challenging to play as the original skulk. Generally speaking more size means more limited ways of approaching and dodging, so you're more tied to the still very limited HP pool. That's all just speculation though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I saw a lot of people mentioning what the Skulk's role is "supposed to be". For the record we don't know jack about the Fade in NS2, and it's pretty obvious from it's evolution through NS1 that the developers were never really 100% happy with the way he turned out. So maybe the Fade's role is going to shift a bit, and it leaves room for Skulks to be bigger and beefier and more badass, because the Fade is just going to be so over-the-top that it dwarfs whatever you thought was "too big" about the Skulk. ;) Just food for thought...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, my only worry is how imaginative the skulk play is going to be. I can't see skulk's HP pool withstanding the late game marine tech, so I don't know how the speed reduction is going to work in endgame. I'd certainly like to see a little different role for skulks than NS1 had, but I just can't see yet how the size change necessarily contributes to that.
And no, I'm not completely against the skulk size increase. It's a somewhat agreeable solution to a few problems, although it creates a couple of new ones too. Still, I wouldn't see it as a positive change in every way as you're making it sound. Aknowledging the tradeoffs is the big deal right now.
There are pros and cons to both sides of this argument but one position I am not seeing brought up is the flat out size that the new skulk occupies. Marines are bigger, structures are bigger, skulks are bigger, lerks are bigger, and we can probably assume that the Fade is bigger too, as well as heavy / exoskeleton marines.
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.
<!--quoteo(post=1737269:date=Nov 12 2009, 03:50 AM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Nov 12 2009, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are pros and cons to both sides of this argument but one position I am not seeing brought up is the flat out size that the new skulk occupies. Marines are bigger, structures are bigger, skulks are bigger, lerks are bigger, and we can probably assume that the Fade is bigger too, as well as heavy / exoskeleton marines.
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure this is the least of our concerns. That sort of thing doesnt go unnoticed
<!--quoteo(post=1737269:date=Nov 11 2009, 07:50 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Nov 11 2009, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are pros and cons to both sides of this argument but one position I am not seeing brought up is the flat out size that the new skulk occupies. Marines are bigger, structures are bigger, skulks are bigger, lerks are bigger, and we can probably assume that the Fade is bigger too, as well as heavy / exoskeleton marines.
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it looks like a lot more like realistic proportions.
Some custom maps in NS1 felt like the rooms were the size of football fields, like if we were playing Killbox/Cubebox/Spambox from Half-Life and Half-Life: Opposing Force.
Although, the weapon is pointed improperly in that picture. The bigger size I like because the Light Machine Gun and Heavy Machine Gun were combined and made into the Machine Gun, which is also nicknamed as the Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, and Combat Rifle.
Pick your acronym:
MG AR BR CR
...and...
The Minigun can be shortened as Mini, if you must do that.
<!--quoteo(post=1736644:date=Nov 7 2009, 09:07 AM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk @ Nov 7 2009, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Size modification could be an interesting Kharaa mutation. Say, one of options in Movement chamber would be "size reduction". It would reduce your model size and hitbox by about 15%. Less bullets hit, easier to hide, ability to enter otherwise inaccessible areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you will see the devs create places that a "smaller" skulk can get to rather than an average skulk. Seems like a lot of extra work.
I just want the alpha to come out so those of us that pre-ordered it can start to get a feel for shooting skulks as the marine class. If it becomes apparent that the skulks are too big, too easy to hit, or don't hide well, then the devs will correct it for game release.
After seeing the screenshots, however, it looks like skulks are going to blend in a lot easier in this game. A major problem in NS1, and a reason that I know deterred some of my friends from plaing, was that learning the skulk class is extremely difficult for some people. Not only that, trying to hide a yellow/orange tinted skulk on a gray wall didn't exactly boast a good hiding place. I mean the only place that skulks were truly hard to see were completely dark rooms or hive locations. The screenshots appear to show us a darker colored skulk, and the map itself appears to be a lot darker. I assume however that the devs will balance lighting like they did in some NS1 maps.
i vote smaller skulks. How big are the vents going to be? It'll be awkward looking. And i just like the idea of something small running around your feet quickly, tough to shoot, etc. Instead of a controlled advance by the marines, 1 skulk can completely change the tide of battle, making some marines frantic and clumsy trying to kill that little guy at your ankles.
buuuuuuut....of course. insert typical large alien dog. imo ... bad bad idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1737277:date=Nov 11 2009, 08:32 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Nov 11 2009, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After seeing the screenshots, however, it looks like skulks are going to blend in a lot easier in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the dynamic infestation might have a big role to play in terms of certain areas matching the skulk's hues.
I also agree that skulks should be more toward the original size, maybe not as small as NS1, but it does seem a bit large. When I first saw the screen-shot, I was just thinking of the potential for team blocking, 5 or 6 skulks of that size stuck in a hallway on a public server is just asking for grenades, especially since it was mentioned somewhere that the maps will be less complicated, meaning more choke points. But in terms of balance, are there any changes to the speed and damage of the skulk? Considering what they had going for them in NS1 (size and speed), what advantages will they have in NS2?
Ok, after reading quite a few posts: these 2 are what i've decided to respond to.
QUOTE (Haze @ Nov 7 2009, 11:13 PM) The small-yet-fast nature of NS1 Skulks made them frustrating and unimpressive for new players to experience: "What was that blur-thing that just killed me? How am I supposed to hit that? How come it's so small but kills so many of us?" And then when the shoe's on the other foot: "How am I supposed to kill a gun-totting Marine and his buddies when I die to a stray fart?" There weren't any issues with the gameplay of the Skulk -- in fact it was pretty spot on for what the Skulk was -- but it's time for a change, because the old Skulk is simply underwhelming and not nearly as awesome as this new beast we've been presented with. The awesomeness of this depends on viewpoint. In general my approach is that a skulk doing 360 spiral at insane speeds just makes me go "Whoa, I wanna learn to do that and track that!". It's my general idea of gaming that I want to face seemingly impossible tasks and then overcome any obstacles learning it. On the other hand a lot of gamers just seem to be frustrated with such stuff.
(this is actually 2 posts)
Both of these posters have a point. Here is my answer. The new player wants to be able to accomplish something. Dealing damage unfortunately is not enough because you can't see it instantly. I suggest giving aliens multiple abilities. This is a tactic that blizzard was taking with SC2 with their "mothership" unit. It was big and flashy, had great moves, and was felt great to use id imagine. However, strategically, in terms of resources and its destructibility...it wasn't efficient. Noobs would in turn build it, and have a blast destroying a group of units with its Black hole ability.
With that in mind, shrink the skulks, and give them a 1hitKO ability. Make that move have a long attack animation that is generally easy to avoid by a skilled marine and is generally not as useful as a typical leap/bite. However, as a noob, just knowing that you may get that hit in would make it feel much better to play.
This would make the skulk much more impressive to noobs, but still retain a lot of the skill involved in order to master it.
<!--quoteo(post=1738344:date=Nov 20 2009, 06:37 AM:name=fr0st2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr0st2k @ Nov 20 2009, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With that in mind, shrink the skulks, and give them a 1hitKO ability. Make that move have a long attack animation that is generally easy to avoid by a skilled marine and is generally not as useful as a typical leap/bite. However, as a noob, just knowing that you may get that hit in would make it feel much better to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you're a noob marine not understanding how you're dying instantly.
Comments
The awesomeness of this depends on viewpoint. In general my approach is that a skulk doing 360 spiral at insane speeds just makes me go "Whoa, I wanna learn to do that and track that!". It's my general idea of gaming that I want to face seemingly impossible tasks and then overcome any obstacles learning it. On the other hand a lot of gamers just seem to be frustrated with such stuff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The new Skulk is clearly meant to strike a balance between both new and old players alike. Why do you think that it's larger, slower, has more HP, <i>but has hive one leap?</i> New players are going to find the new Skulk easier to hit as a Marine due to the increased size, easier to kill with as an Alien due to the increased health, and more fun to experience from both ends of the spectrum because <i><u>it just plain looks <b>way</b> cooler</u></i> (and it's more satisfying to shoot than tissue-paper Skulks). Old, skilled players are going to have a lot of fun with hive one leap to make up for being slower and larger target. I mean, look at the Hunter's wall jump in L4D -- new players are kind of clumsy with it, but experienced players will make your jaw hit the floor with how easily they can fling themselves about the map, making themselves VERY difficult-to-hit targets. Size isn't everything!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Against a decent marine a celerity leapskulk often wasn't hard enough to hit. I don't completely see how my jaw is going to hit the ground with bigger and clumsier alien than NS1 had. The leaping could be awesome, but I really haven't seen any indication of more dodging abilities as you're implifying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember everyone trying to stack Marines because no one really wanted to play the small, fragile, tiny Aliens? Don't think for a second that such a trend went unnoticed by the developers -- kiss those days goodbye with <i>Dieselfied</i> Skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People don't want to play the aliens because of horrible res model, slightly underdog skulks (which could be altered in many ways, size increase being one) and the requisite for a few people capable of teamworking. Having a bigger skulk is a partitial solution to learning curve issues, but I can also see it turning people away from the public alien team if it's not as imaginative and challenging to play as the original skulk. Generally speaking more size means more limited ways of approaching and dodging, so you're more tied to the still very limited HP pool. That's all just speculation though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I saw a lot of people mentioning what the Skulk's role is "supposed to be". For the record we don't know jack about the Fade in NS2, and it's pretty obvious from it's evolution through NS1 that the developers were never really 100% happy with the way he turned out. So maybe the Fade's role is going to shift a bit, and it leaves room for Skulks to be bigger and beefier and more badass, because the Fade is just going to be so over-the-top that it dwarfs whatever you thought was "too big" about the Skulk. ;) Just food for thought...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, my only worry is how imaginative the skulk play is going to be. I can't see skulk's HP pool withstanding the late game marine tech, so I don't know how the speed reduction is going to work in endgame. I'd certainly like to see a little different role for skulks than NS1 had, but I just can't see yet how the size change necessarily contributes to that.
And no, I'm not completely against the skulk size increase. It's a somewhat agreeable solution to a few problems, although it creates a couple of new ones too. Still, I wouldn't see it as a positive change in every way as you're making it sound. Aknowledging the tradeoffs is the big deal right now.
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure this is the least of our concerns. That sort of thing doesnt go unnoticed
Exactly how will all of this fit into a room? The hallway in the screenshot already looks ultra crammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it looks like a lot more like realistic proportions.
Some custom maps in NS1 felt like the rooms were the size of football fields, like if we were playing Killbox/Cubebox/Spambox from Half-Life and Half-Life: Opposing Force.
Although, the weapon is pointed improperly in that picture. The bigger size I like because the Light Machine Gun and Heavy Machine Gun were combined and made into the Machine Gun, which is also nicknamed as the Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, and Combat Rifle.
Pick your acronym:
MG
AR
BR
CR
...and...
The Minigun can be shortened as Mini, if you must do that.
Heavy Exoskeleton = Heavy/EXO
I don't think you will see the devs create places that a "smaller" skulk can get to rather than an average skulk. Seems like a lot of extra work.
I just want the alpha to come out so those of us that pre-ordered it can start to get a feel for shooting skulks as the marine class. If it becomes apparent that the skulks are too big, too easy to hit, or don't hide well, then the devs will correct it for game release.
After seeing the screenshots, however, it looks like skulks are going to blend in a lot easier in this game. A major problem in NS1, and a reason that I know deterred some of my friends from plaing, was that learning the skulk class is extremely difficult for some people. Not only that, trying to hide a yellow/orange tinted skulk on a gray wall didn't exactly boast a good hiding place. I mean the only place that skulks were truly hard to see were completely dark rooms or hive locations. The screenshots appear to show us a darker colored skulk, and the map itself appears to be a lot darker. I assume however that the devs will balance lighting like they did in some NS1 maps.
buuuuuuut....of course. insert typical large alien dog. imo ... bad bad idea.
I think the dynamic infestation might have a big role to play in terms of certain areas matching the skulk's hues.
QUOTE (Haze @ Nov 7 2009, 11:13 PM)
The small-yet-fast nature of NS1 Skulks made them frustrating and unimpressive for new players to experience: "What was that blur-thing that just killed me? How am I supposed to hit that? How come it's so small but kills so many of us?" And then when the shoe's on the other foot: "How am I supposed to kill a gun-totting Marine and his buddies when I die to a stray fart?" There weren't any issues with the gameplay of the Skulk -- in fact it was pretty spot on for what the Skulk was -- but it's time for a change, because the old Skulk is simply underwhelming and not nearly as awesome as this new beast we've been presented with.
The awesomeness of this depends on viewpoint. In general my approach is that a skulk doing 360 spiral at insane speeds just makes me go "Whoa, I wanna learn to do that and track that!". It's my general idea of gaming that I want to face seemingly impossible tasks and then overcome any obstacles learning it. On the other hand a lot of gamers just seem to be frustrated with such stuff.
(this is actually 2 posts)
Both of these posters have a point. Here is my answer. The new player wants to be able to accomplish something. Dealing damage unfortunately is not enough because you can't see it instantly. I suggest giving aliens multiple abilities. This is a tactic that blizzard was taking with SC2 with their "mothership" unit. It was big and flashy, had great moves, and was felt great to use id imagine. However, strategically, in terms of resources and its destructibility...it wasn't efficient. Noobs would in turn build it, and have a blast destroying a group of units with its Black hole ability.
With that in mind, shrink the skulks, and give them a 1hitKO ability. Make that move have a long attack animation that is generally easy to avoid by a skilled marine and is generally not as useful as a typical leap/bite. However, as a noob, just knowing that you may get that hit in would make it feel much better to play.
This would make the skulk much more impressive to noobs, but still retain a lot of the skill involved in order to master it.
Unless you're a noob marine not understanding how you're dying instantly.