Turning off options to maximize "game"...
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How will NS2 handle this? Is it cheating or not?</div>In NS1 there was a HUGE stink about r_drawviewmodels. What this command would let you do is hide all first-person weapon views. For a skulk, this meant your 'bite' effect didn't obscure your view. For marines, your HMG was totally invisible, and didn't block any of your view. IIRC eventually this issue was settled - and r_drawviewmodels was locked. However, this didn't really 'stop' anything. Because you could still just use a blank mesh to replace all your weapons. Another popular thing to do was to run utilities that change how your graphics card worked. I *THINK* a popular one was Powerstrip - effectively, with the right tweaks, you could render an entire map much brighter than normal, including negating shadows. While it wasn't as powerful as a fullbright hack, it still had a similar effect. Many people 'claimed' that Powerstrip was the only way they could run NS (for some reason, they never thought this was a problem that should be fixed).
And I have to laugh - I did see a version, unsure if it was real or not, where all aliens were replaced with models that were blocks the exact size of their hitboxes (before they were fixed). The Onos was just a big tall rectangle with 'ONOS' written on the side. In the HL2 mod Dystopia, a popular thing to do was to run the game in DX7 mode - this had the effect of making the stealth effect 100x more visible (DX7 couldn't process the shader effects, so it was just a transparent model). In Counter-Strike, tweaking graphic options and DX modes let you see through smoke for a while.
Finally there's the easiest way to do the above in a less sinister manner - to simply run the game at the bare-ass minimum options you can. Instead of a smoky explosion, a grenade could just throw a shower of cheap sparks. Instead of dramatic high-contrast shadowing filtering through a grating, it could just be a universal dimness in the area (then you up the gamma and presto).
Anyway, my point is this - I understand the driving motivation behind this behavior - when it comes to competitive play, you do everything you can to get an edge. Dropping a lot of frames at a critical moment can make it royally suck to be you, so removing all possibility of this happening is common. But me, I think it's just shades of gray in terms of cheating. Using blank models, utilities to tweak your graphics card, and hacky settings to negate things in-game are, without a doubt to me, cheating. Maybe not as heinous as a wallhack... but cheating. Having a superpowered 4GHz SLI rig and running at minimum settings is also somewhat cheating - because ultimately what you're doing is giving yourself an unfair advantage over other players that they may not have.
The inevitable response to this is, as always "Well it's not unfair, because you can lower your settings too." To this I would point out that if the game were MEANT to be played at a level of inferior visual quality and effects, it would have been designed first and foremost to look that way - and they would never have even bothered with shadows and the like. If that makes sense.
I personally feel that the way a game is meant to be played is as it was fully designed - when they make that siege cannon shot rattle your screen and white out your vision, that's an intentional part of the game. When the muzzle flashes from the minigun staccato your vision, that's part of the game. When the lower corridor is full of fog that one guy can see through because it drops his FPS so he deleted the sprite... that's not part of the game.
The gray area is, of course, the people who are NOT running on a 4GHz SLI monster and are using the same computer they played NS on. To say they aren't even allowed to play the game because they have an excuse to turn off shadows is nuts - but to me, turning off shadows and playing with a bunch of people who all have them on is equally nuts.
How will NS2 address the issues of graphics settings? The idea is to put everyone on a level playing field. When one guy sees a spotlight swinging around in a dark room, passing over skulks, he's not on the same level as the guy who just sees a dingy room full of enemies. I'm hoping we can come to a decent balance, where those of us who want to play the game in its full atmospheric glory can enjoy it without being hobbled because people with inferior hardware are getting an easier time. Obviously it could be possible to make it so reduced settings replace existing effects with more annoying, yet cheaper ones (my solution for the Dystopia DX7 thing was to simply make DX7 cloakers 100% invisible), and frankly I'd rather have that than what tends to exist now... the best solution, of course, is to come as close to a middle ground as possible.
I'm just saying, if shadows are a vital part of both alien gameplay and map design (which I think any mapper would agree they are), being able to just flip a switch and suddenly your marine turns into Rid###### (are you serious.... VIN DIESEL'S CHARACTER IN PITCH BLACK)... just doesn't sit right for me.
And I have to laugh - I did see a version, unsure if it was real or not, where all aliens were replaced with models that were blocks the exact size of their hitboxes (before they were fixed). The Onos was just a big tall rectangle with 'ONOS' written on the side. In the HL2 mod Dystopia, a popular thing to do was to run the game in DX7 mode - this had the effect of making the stealth effect 100x more visible (DX7 couldn't process the shader effects, so it was just a transparent model). In Counter-Strike, tweaking graphic options and DX modes let you see through smoke for a while.
Finally there's the easiest way to do the above in a less sinister manner - to simply run the game at the bare-ass minimum options you can. Instead of a smoky explosion, a grenade could just throw a shower of cheap sparks. Instead of dramatic high-contrast shadowing filtering through a grating, it could just be a universal dimness in the area (then you up the gamma and presto).
Anyway, my point is this - I understand the driving motivation behind this behavior - when it comes to competitive play, you do everything you can to get an edge. Dropping a lot of frames at a critical moment can make it royally suck to be you, so removing all possibility of this happening is common. But me, I think it's just shades of gray in terms of cheating. Using blank models, utilities to tweak your graphics card, and hacky settings to negate things in-game are, without a doubt to me, cheating. Maybe not as heinous as a wallhack... but cheating. Having a superpowered 4GHz SLI rig and running at minimum settings is also somewhat cheating - because ultimately what you're doing is giving yourself an unfair advantage over other players that they may not have.
The inevitable response to this is, as always "Well it's not unfair, because you can lower your settings too." To this I would point out that if the game were MEANT to be played at a level of inferior visual quality and effects, it would have been designed first and foremost to look that way - and they would never have even bothered with shadows and the like. If that makes sense.
I personally feel that the way a game is meant to be played is as it was fully designed - when they make that siege cannon shot rattle your screen and white out your vision, that's an intentional part of the game. When the muzzle flashes from the minigun staccato your vision, that's part of the game. When the lower corridor is full of fog that one guy can see through because it drops his FPS so he deleted the sprite... that's not part of the game.
The gray area is, of course, the people who are NOT running on a 4GHz SLI monster and are using the same computer they played NS on. To say they aren't even allowed to play the game because they have an excuse to turn off shadows is nuts - but to me, turning off shadows and playing with a bunch of people who all have them on is equally nuts.
How will NS2 address the issues of graphics settings? The idea is to put everyone on a level playing field. When one guy sees a spotlight swinging around in a dark room, passing over skulks, he's not on the same level as the guy who just sees a dingy room full of enemies. I'm hoping we can come to a decent balance, where those of us who want to play the game in its full atmospheric glory can enjoy it without being hobbled because people with inferior hardware are getting an easier time. Obviously it could be possible to make it so reduced settings replace existing effects with more annoying, yet cheaper ones (my solution for the Dystopia DX7 thing was to simply make DX7 cloakers 100% invisible), and frankly I'd rather have that than what tends to exist now... the best solution, of course, is to come as close to a middle ground as possible.
I'm just saying, if shadows are a vital part of both alien gameplay and map design (which I think any mapper would agree they are), being able to just flip a switch and suddenly your marine turns into Rid###### (are you serious.... VIN DIESEL'S CHARACTER IN PITCH BLACK)... just doesn't sit right for me.
Comments
The first responsibility falls to the developer: don't design visual gameplay elements that work differently at different graphics settings. Yes, this will mean working within some limitations, but it's better to make a small concession and avoid the issue than constantly have to deal with 'unfair' advantages and disadvantages from irresolvable hardware problems.
Next, decide how much players can customize their game before it starts offering advantages. Many players find viewmodels distracting and prefer to play without them, but for others watching their gun in action is half the fun. Will turning off viewmodels offer a significant advantage, and if it does, would it better to resolve that by forcing viewmodels for all players or redesigning them so that they're less of a handicap? I tend towards the latter, since it offers a compromise that can leave everybody happy, and the marginal advantages of turning off viewmodels isn't generally a big deal in the casual setting of a public game.
The Source Engine offers an excellent tool to stop abusive customizations; the sv_pure setting can force all players on a server to use default textures, models, and sounds, with the option of adding a whitelist of approved customizations. Give Spark an equivalent, and responsible server owners will be able to police their own playerbase. Yes, this does mean that your hilarious Bulbasaur Gorge skin won't work unless you get the server admin to approve it, but if it means that much to you you can go take your chances on a server that doesn't enforce consistency. Competitive Leagues for most game force defaults, so the clanners shouldn't be your enemy on this issue.
...and just like that, nobody short of a legitimate wallhacker will be able to cheat on your server.
1) They are attempting to optimize gameplay with all the graphic features fully enabled using "older" hardware.
2) They are working on multiple modes regarding the purity of the server. This engine should be totally mod friendly, so they want you to be able to choose servers that enforce strict vanilla ns2, or servers that allow changes to gameplay, and servers of completely different games built using the engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1735752:date=Nov 2 2009, 08:14 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I have to laugh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same
Than again, I like to turn my crosshairs off for that extra challenge and satisfaction. I play games to have fun and experience the game in all of it's beauty, so I don't get the competitive side of gaming to the extremes that you need to wash everything out so you can see the guy partially concealed in shadows.
Just as long as there is no damn dolphin diving.
Competitive players are not the enemy with this, unless you do actually take massive offense to trying to get consistent FPS using non exploitative in-built options.
-snip-
I have yet to play a multiplayer FPS game which uses shadows and darkness as an integral element of gameplay. So far, every single FPS game allows to disable shadows completely, making this branch of tactics pointless.
I think NS has two bigger issues left when it comes to equal settings.
1. The ambient sounds aren't protected by anything, so they are easy to replace with blank ones if you want to. In NS2 I'd either like to see them enforced somehow or easily disabled by an checking a box in options.
2. The eternal gamma issue. In my opinion the best option is to avoid creating any bigger direct connections between the gameplay and darkness and leave the rest for the mappers. In NS the problem was mostly that the same maps are used for both the competetive play and atmospheric gameplay. Hopefully NS2 will have maps of both types due to the powerful tools and the experience from NS1. At least I can't see any other workaround in a game that tries to appeal both the audiences.
Otherwise NS has got some features that aren't accessible enough (+movement, jump timing, custom/simple crosshairs, maybe even hud_fastswitch). Their use shouldn't be any kind of inside knowledge.
Still, you have to keep in mind that an online game has a plenty of unfairness involved anyway, so chasing the absolute equality is never going to work. Some people have better hardware, some people have more stable connections. In NS1 you could consider default rates an unfair advantage in some situations as it creates an uncontrollable factor that the opponent can't predict or prepare for.
This is most everything I wanted to say.
Just to add, while it's tempting to say "just enforce it all" this will cause two problems:
The competitive community patch will be more extreme and the gap between competitive and casual will artificially widen.
It will turn people who don't like the exact style of the game away and/or who like modding models and other valid client side changes.
Neither of those things seem desirable to Charlie since he wants to "unite the world through play".
Some games build themselves around stealth, (operation flashpoint and its sequels) and for those there is ridiculous amounts of drama about graphics settings, of course they are helped by being so horribly slow to run that everyone has to turn the settings low, but still, playing with settings off can seriously improve your ability to kill people.
For NS however it really isn't built into the game, hiding in darkness is not a mandatory thing (least I don't remember it ever being too widely done or there being that many pitch black areas), hiding behind things works much better, or simply keeping away from marines using vents or corners. Most of the levels were fairly brightly lit in most areas.
If you keep in mind this sort of thing when mapping you shouldn't ever really put the player in a position where he has to choose between playability and graphical quality. It isn't practical to have stealth in a competitive game where you can change the graphics settings. It works OK in cooperative games like left4dead because you don't really need that extra edge, the game is less about seeing the zombies and more about facing the boss and swarm challenges, and for those you always get audio indications of where they are before you run into them.
2) shadows, dark areas and such shouldnt play a big role in an online game
3) there will most likely be VAC around for NS2
4) dark areas are generally a good tactic element, but should be placed wisely in a map
I really don't understand people who want shadows, details, etc etc. in online games
When playing clanmatches, you dont care about fancy effects, shadows, bellyslide-gorges and such. You focus on the raw skills like map knowledge, chokepoints, aiming, tactic, timing and such.
Old news here, but my point is if you play the game every day, you don't care about the graphics but focus on gameplay - so disabling certain options ingame will generally getting accepted by the players, if not a plugin will be created.
A shaking screen etc. is a game mechanic, very dark maps and such are, i claim here, annoying long-term and can be fixed with any gamma tool (besides: Powerstrip is no nasty cheat program...).
I think people have to differ from single- and multiplay. It's completely different. Of course i use highest settings in a singleplayer-game to experience the best atmosphere, but i only play it one time. In Multiplay however, the game has to be more handy, deeper and challenging. You don't look around for every detail. This starts with map design. If you look at current popular maps you will see what i mean:
dust2 on cs, veil/tanith on ns, langres on company of heroes for example: all these maps are very popular because they are bright, have an easy layout but still require a lot of tactic and skill.
A lot of guys I used to play with had replaced them all, and I could never bring myself to do it. I agree, its either not removable or transparent to all players that is it removable.
It's like turning off the grass in ArmA - it gives you a ridiculously stupid advantage as you can no longer use the grass to hide in, so grass is actually forced on by the servers.
RE: NS1, part of the problem was that there was no alien flashlight, so aliens were even more blind than marines in dark areas...
2) The GUI interface should allow players to set the relative volume of ambient sounds, to zero if desired.
3) The GUI interface should allow players to easily tweak graphic settings as low as possible.
4) The environment and ambiance should invite players into the game but consciously avoid gameplay entanglement.
Basically, every issue has to be handled independently, but not very carefully; there is almost always an obvious solution. The obvious solution is to add an option to the main menu.
EDIT:
Example: here is an option to disable ambient sounds in NS1:
<a href="http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/files/null.zip" target="_blank">http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/files/null.zip</a>
I think you should try hitting your flashlight key, while playing alien. You’ll find that aliens have something way better than a traditional flashlight; it would also be rather strange if aliens indeed had a traditional flashlight....
OT, to me one of the best part of the quake series where/is the customization options.
Customizing your game is like buying a new pair of running shoes. The new shoes won’t make you run faster nor longer, but the jog will most likely be more enjoyable.
And I agreed with homicide, you should be able to alter your game; be it gamma, ambient sounds or graphic via game menus. I think that many new players find it bothersome to spend time on cfgs.
But I am pretty sure UWE are making this game compatible with computers that aren't necessarily latest-gen or even last-gen, so I feel they have this problem thought out and handled.
Of course the best solution is to come up with a single option that everyone likes, but that is the most difficult solution to find. Most likely, a single option still forces a portion of the community to play the game the way they don't want to play it. It is often easier to come up with a range of options that can please more players than any one option can please.
<b>Competitive players who feel most compelled to set an advantageous option often prefer that option anyways. Non-competitive who prefer a less advantageous option don't really care that it puts them at a small disadvantage and set it anyways.</b>
For example:
- Assuming most competitive players do not enjoy ambient sounds.
Given an option, most competitive players would be happy disabling ambient sounds and only a small portion would be unhappy knowing that they must turn them off to remain competitive.
- Assuming most non-competitive players enjoy ambient sounds.
Given an option, most non-competitive players would enable ambient sounds ignoring the fact that they would be at an extremely small disadvantage.
<b>There is a point at which the advantage of a feature intersects with the desire of the majority.</b>
For example:
- Assuming most competitive players do no enjoy black walls.
Given an option, all competitive players would enable black walls and be unhappy knowing that they must turn on blackwalls to remain competitive.
- Assuming most non-competitive players do not enjoy black walls.
Given an option, most non-competitive players would also enable black walls because the advantage is too large to ignore.
For example:
- Assuming most competitive players do no enjoy black walls.
Given an option, all competitive players would enable black walls and be unhappy knowing that they must turn on blackwalls to remain competitive.
- Assuming most non-competitive players do not enjoy black walls.
Given an option, most non-competitive players would also enable black walls because the advantage is too large to ignore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why most leagues enforce default settings. For example, bright skins would provide a concrete competitive advantage. At the same time, they're painfully ugly to look at and disruptive to gameplay that was balanced around enemies not always being easy to immediately pick out from their surroundings. Players using them would be better, but the overall game would be worse if they became widespread. Rather than letting everyone be compelled to play in this manner, leagues simply mandate default skins.
Personally, I view ambient sounds as a gameplay element; a room dominated by the hum of an active generator provides good cover for a skulk ambush, and Marines should be appropriately wary. Good mappers should be cognizant of the opportunities offered by ambient sounds and be encouraged to take advantage of them as map features. As such, they should be protected by consistency. Conversely, I view most weapon models as aesthetics more than gameplay features, and if you'd rather have your gun out of the way then I think it should be an option. There are exceptions to this, like the limited field of vision of a scoped Sniper, but these instances should also be protected.
I have a great pair of headphones and a low pitch ambient with a lot of bass is incredibly annoying. Whats technically worse is that the problem can easily be solved by reducing the low frequency gain on my audio card(which basically simulates a crappy pair of headphones). Playing with a cheap pair of desktop speakers(which will almost certainly have a poor high range) is outright annoying. This issue is actually most notable in NS1 with fade blink. The amplitude of fade blink varies significantly depending on different hardware acceleration technologies. Depending on the players audio processor and speakers, the amplitude of fade blink can range from an overwhelming bore that makes it impossible to hear anything to a minor hum that doesn't even mask the sound of discharged shells hitting the ground.
Lastly, and probably most importantly, I am obviously bias <b>against</b> creating a dark, dingy, and scary alien atmosphere. When I start up Natural Selection my mind doesn't teleport into a frightened frontiersman soldier walking down a dark and scary hallway. I am just a guy sitting at a computer playing a game against another guy sitting at a different computer. Sorry, but when I play NS I don't enjoy dressing up in green Kevlar and I don't enjoy annoying ass engine sounds being pumped into my head. If you are into that kind of thing, fine, whatever gets you off, just don't expect me to wear Kevlar also.
However, if there are going to be significant technical issues with this like the ones you've mentioned, or most people are simply going to find it more annoying than it's worth as a terrain feature, then I agree that it's not something that should be included (or at least enforced).
But I am pretty sure UWE are making this game compatible with computers that aren't necessarily latest-gen or even last-gen, so I feel they have this problem thought out and handled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember that, I used to play CoD 2 online a lot. Thing is back then before I had a job to pay for my super computer, I had no other choice but to run CoD 2 in DX8 as opposed to 9 (Or 7 as opposed to 8?). I could run CoD 2 in maximum settings in the lower DX without all the fancy effects at 60 FPS plus or run it in the fancy effects DX at 20 FPS, so running the game at the same settings as what you deem fair was unfair to me. I wish I could have played it with the snow effects and shadows because it looked beautiful, but doing so meant being killed seconds before I see it.