Communication implementation.
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Microphone - quick-comm - auto-squawk</div>Effective communication is key to Natural-Selection - nobody doubts this. Proper communication tools (or lack thereof) can have a profound impact on the game, deciding who wins, who loses. With that in mind, there's three types of communications up for discussion here I think are vital to any game with a team component, the use of the microphone, the use of quick-comms, and the use of auto-squawks.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Microphone</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I believe two comm channels for each team should be sufficient - a 'global' and a 'local'.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Global</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The global channel would effectively work as it does in NS1. All voice comms are together on the same channel. One thing that is important is that when the commander speaks, all voices except his should be dropped in volume, making his the priority. Aside from that the channel should be business as usual.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Local</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The local channel is my interpretation of a squad channel. While a squad-only channel would be nice, it requires you to be with your squad... and only they can hear it. What happens when you're with more than just your squad, or you meet up with one? Then you have to use global comm, which is unnecessary clutter. Simply put, a local chat allows you to talk to your squad no matter where they are, and also with any other players that are in a certain radius of the speaking player. This allows he coherence of a squad channel to work with a group of squads, or a 'squad' made up of solo players.
With a proper HUD you could easily express who is in your squad (this picture is crude at best - I would expect more from a squad interface including their rough estimate of health and ammo) and who is 'listening in'.
<img src="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2189/listenhud.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Quick-Comm</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
We're all familiar with quick-comms. Pressing a button to ask for ammo, spotting a tank, or otherwise are all forms of quick-comms. This naturally is stemming from the thread 'Been done in other games'. There seem to be three schools of thought on how to implement quick-comms.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Keyboard Menu</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is by far my favorite option, and the best implementation I've seen of it was in the Tribes franchise of games. For the unfamiliar, the "V-menu" as it was called (summoned by the 'V' key) was simply a categorical list of quick-comms based on subject. Here is the menu as it appears in Tribes 2, with both the 'Attack' menu [A] and the 'Repair' menu [R].
<img src="http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2489/t2v.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
While clearly T2 is a far more expansive game than NS is, we won't need all those comms, and idea is simple - with three keystrokes you can quickly and accurately say what you want. There are more 'nested' commands that are four keystrokes deep, (the 'SELF' [S] command requires you to open a choice of 'DEFEND' [D] tasks, for example, to declare what you are doing (VSDF - I'm defending our flag!). While there is something of a learning curve to the V-menu, once mastered, the payoff is in accuracy and speed. It also generally requires a minimum of work to actually do - you remain in control of your aim and firing while the menu is open. The menu is also easily designed to be user-customizable. I could just as easily use the 'V' key to open the menu, and have my most oft-used commands directly mapped from the main menu to the QWEASD keys, or mayhap even make my own comms. V-menus also allow a high degree of complication if desired.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Radial Menu</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Radial menus are becoming increasingly popular in FPS games as of late. For the sake of convenience I'll use the one from from the other thread (which is from BF2).
<img src="http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/76/radial.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The advantages of radial menus is that everything is easy to see and find. Whereas in the V-menu, presumably you may have to hunt a bit to find what you want ("Is 'Hi!' under Global, or Very Quick?" (A: Global - VGH!)). Some radial menus also offer advanced options nested underneath (in BF2, the 'spotted' option lets you manually select what you spotted, for example). Like the V-meun, someone well-versed in its use can take advantage of it effectively - you simply press and hold a key to bring it up, mouse in the direction, and release or click. However, radial menus typically require two things to be useful. One, they generally take up a significant amount of screen space to display the menu and accurately reflect where the mouse is on the menu. Secondly, the menus require use of the mouse to utilize, which removes your ability to aim or use the menu while you are in combat. Finally, the issue I have with radial menus is that it's very easy to mistakenly make voice calls you didn't mean to make by accidentally opening the menu, and it's also less accurate (easier to 'miss' your option) if you're in a hurry.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Mouse Gestures</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I'm only offering mouse gestures as they were brought up in the other thread. Mouse gestures work similar to a radial menu in most respects, except they would likely be performed without any menu popup whatsoever. This leads to the obvious disadvantage that they would presumably be the hardest to master, as knowing how to use them is not an issue of intuitive design, but simple rote memorization. I imagine their implementation would be to hold the gesture key, perform the gesture, and release. I don't think gestures are a serious option as they amplify the negative aspects of radial menus and provide very little if any advantage over the other two options.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Auto-Squawk</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Auto-squawks are voice commands that are shouted only in the local area, have no textual accompaniment, and are used to enhance situational awareness for friendly players. For example, when a marine is reloading, it may be prudent for him to call out "Reloading!". If his ammo is running dry, he may call out "Bingo ammo!". I really can't suggest much on how this would work for aliens, but while it may seem weird, I think such auto-squawks should only be audible to the team making the squawk. Kharra don't speak English, after all.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Microphone</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I believe two comm channels for each team should be sufficient - a 'global' and a 'local'.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Global</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The global channel would effectively work as it does in NS1. All voice comms are together on the same channel. One thing that is important is that when the commander speaks, all voices except his should be dropped in volume, making his the priority. Aside from that the channel should be business as usual.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Local</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The local channel is my interpretation of a squad channel. While a squad-only channel would be nice, it requires you to be with your squad... and only they can hear it. What happens when you're with more than just your squad, or you meet up with one? Then you have to use global comm, which is unnecessary clutter. Simply put, a local chat allows you to talk to your squad no matter where they are, and also with any other players that are in a certain radius of the speaking player. This allows he coherence of a squad channel to work with a group of squads, or a 'squad' made up of solo players.
With a proper HUD you could easily express who is in your squad (this picture is crude at best - I would expect more from a squad interface including their rough estimate of health and ammo) and who is 'listening in'.
<img src="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2189/listenhud.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Quick-Comm</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
We're all familiar with quick-comms. Pressing a button to ask for ammo, spotting a tank, or otherwise are all forms of quick-comms. This naturally is stemming from the thread 'Been done in other games'. There seem to be three schools of thought on how to implement quick-comms.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Keyboard Menu</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is by far my favorite option, and the best implementation I've seen of it was in the Tribes franchise of games. For the unfamiliar, the "V-menu" as it was called (summoned by the 'V' key) was simply a categorical list of quick-comms based on subject. Here is the menu as it appears in Tribes 2, with both the 'Attack' menu [A] and the 'Repair' menu [R].
<img src="http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2489/t2v.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
While clearly T2 is a far more expansive game than NS is, we won't need all those comms, and idea is simple - with three keystrokes you can quickly and accurately say what you want. There are more 'nested' commands that are four keystrokes deep, (the 'SELF' [S] command requires you to open a choice of 'DEFEND' [D] tasks, for example, to declare what you are doing (VSDF - I'm defending our flag!). While there is something of a learning curve to the V-menu, once mastered, the payoff is in accuracy and speed. It also generally requires a minimum of work to actually do - you remain in control of your aim and firing while the menu is open. The menu is also easily designed to be user-customizable. I could just as easily use the 'V' key to open the menu, and have my most oft-used commands directly mapped from the main menu to the QWEASD keys, or mayhap even make my own comms. V-menus also allow a high degree of complication if desired.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Radial Menu</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Radial menus are becoming increasingly popular in FPS games as of late. For the sake of convenience I'll use the one from from the other thread (which is from BF2).
<img src="http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/76/radial.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The advantages of radial menus is that everything is easy to see and find. Whereas in the V-menu, presumably you may have to hunt a bit to find what you want ("Is 'Hi!' under Global, or Very Quick?" (A: Global - VGH!)). Some radial menus also offer advanced options nested underneath (in BF2, the 'spotted' option lets you manually select what you spotted, for example). Like the V-meun, someone well-versed in its use can take advantage of it effectively - you simply press and hold a key to bring it up, mouse in the direction, and release or click. However, radial menus typically require two things to be useful. One, they generally take up a significant amount of screen space to display the menu and accurately reflect where the mouse is on the menu. Secondly, the menus require use of the mouse to utilize, which removes your ability to aim or use the menu while you are in combat. Finally, the issue I have with radial menus is that it's very easy to mistakenly make voice calls you didn't mean to make by accidentally opening the menu, and it's also less accurate (easier to 'miss' your option) if you're in a hurry.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Mouse Gestures</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I'm only offering mouse gestures as they were brought up in the other thread. Mouse gestures work similar to a radial menu in most respects, except they would likely be performed without any menu popup whatsoever. This leads to the obvious disadvantage that they would presumably be the hardest to master, as knowing how to use them is not an issue of intuitive design, but simple rote memorization. I imagine their implementation would be to hold the gesture key, perform the gesture, and release. I don't think gestures are a serious option as they amplify the negative aspects of radial menus and provide very little if any advantage over the other two options.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Auto-Squawk</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Auto-squawks are voice commands that are shouted only in the local area, have no textual accompaniment, and are used to enhance situational awareness for friendly players. For example, when a marine is reloading, it may be prudent for him to call out "Reloading!". If his ammo is running dry, he may call out "Bingo ammo!". I really can't suggest much on how this would work for aliens, but while it may seem weird, I think such auto-squawks should only be audible to the team making the squawk. Kharra don't speak English, after all.
Comments
Picking up where we left off in the other thread, most people see mouse gestures as the extension of the radial/pop-up menu. Some players were saying how navigating the NS1 tree was mostly quick movements once you had it down, akin to a gesture, and so some wanted a kind of gesture support added. Personally I'd rather stick to the menu system if anything and getting in to gesture recognition can be a real pain and create even more false positives.
Auto-squack sounds like a great idea and I believe has been brought up before. It's also not extremely difficult to set up (duh there's always a time investment) and it acts as a vocal system to help aid players and even acts in L4D as a clever teaching tool. A bit of fluff, but very welcome in my book.
In general, even if the V-Menu system isn't implemented for voice stuff, a structure/template for a similar menu would be very welcome, especially by the mod community. Many mods require in-game menus to operate whether it be for purchasing upgrades or voting on things such as the next map. Instead of hacking a system together with the chat text, these menus would be a welcome system.
I don't think the use of gestures or intensely detailed chat messages should be needed, either. If you remember America's Army, you'd remember that they give you the ability to shout, use hand gestures, whisper, use radio, etc. and all were useless save for the radio and that is only because it was active by default. All you need is bare necessity: contact spotted, need [item or building] here, etc. should suffice. Nothing more.
So scribbling your mouse up and down three times could call for health or something. That's what a mouse gesture means to me, at least. A radial menu can work via 'gestures' in the sense that you pop up the menu, mouse in the direction of what you want, and click. But that's what radial menus ARE, gestures to me means a more complicated level on it.
RE: the number of players vs. comms - this occurred to me, which is why I simplified it to just two comms - global and local. Local serves all the functions of a squad chat as well as allowing 'pick-up-squad' functionality.
As for 'intensely detailed chat messages' - don't know what you mean by this. There were some immensely detailed chat scripts for NS1 :) Even including those stupid "HELP I HAVE %AMMO LEFT AND %HEALTH AND IM AT %LOCATION AND MY IP IS %IP AND I AM EATING A %TASTYSANDWICH!" scripts.
Obviously there's less stuff in NS2 than there is in Tribes, that doesn't mean the basic principles of it can't be implemented. When the comm drops a building, I just have to hit 'vsb' and it'll say "I'm building that structure!"
So scribbling your mouse up and down three times could call for health or something. That's what a mouse gesture means to me, at least. A radial menu can work via 'gestures' in the sense that you pop up the menu, mouse in the direction of what you want, and click. But that's what radial menus ARE, gestures to me means a more complicated level on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. =]
Also, I've added this to the NS2 Idea Map.
NS1 ideal: 6 VS 6
As explained in the latest interview Q&A, they're changing the resource model so that large teams won't be unfeasible.
My compare/contrast of V vs Radial menus
V-menu:
Key combinations
changeable
Obstructs movement
Both:
Uncluttered (one key activates whole menu system)
Organized, structured and tiered
Obstructs something.
Radial:
Mouse movement based
Obstructs Vision
I guess now we have to decide which are pros and which are cons, That's entirely up to you.
One mans food is anothers poison...
I also sort of think a voice menu is a waste of time and so 1999. I've also usually find them little use except for a healing one where it shows where the player is. There just usually isn't the right context to them, not knowing where people is, not being able to associate the voice with a person like with a mic.
Mics are $15. :/ If you don't have one, aim at the enemy and click your mouse can suffice.
Only voice from the game that's needed is a commander "move here" and "attack here" when commander gives a ping.
This is a small development team after all. I'd prefer gameplay polish over tons of UI stuff.
I got mine in one of those crappy lanuage box sets, but how hard would it be to put the thing out of a telephone?
a little tape, some extra wire, a few alligator clips, extra mic boost, and magic. your very own mic spam fuzz.
I loved the Tribes-series voice menus, especially some of the third-party scripted versions where each key had better mnemonics. Ex: (G)AB for "Attacking... Enemy <b>B</b>ase", or (G)DF for Defending... Our <b>F</b>lag. I found it much more reliable than menus that require you to use your mouse, and generally you could run, jump in the air, tap it out, and continue running.
Auto-squawks are very cool, but their only problem is when it comes to stealth. If the developers decide that a marine (or pair of marines) should be able to be stealthy or to hide from their slavering doom... then it seems wrong that their character should uncontrollably yell out and reveal themselves when they decide to reload etc. Thus the question of whether it should be audible to enemies rests on a larger decision about the marine playstyle and skill tree.
It is irritating when you get that Commander that commentates every action he is doing. Like in The Unit when Sgt. Grey is defusing the bomb in Season 1.
There also might be an important conversation/info from the "Field Commander" at that time, that can not be "blocked out" otherwise the Marines will lose if they do not respond to the intel. Like if a Field Commander/Marine spots a Lerk/Onos Rush at a secondary passageway, while the person in the Command Chair is busy watching the main attack force or waiting for an upgrade to finish.
But other than that, I support these ideas. As long as they are easily accessible while playing in the game, unlike the TF2 Equipment menu where it takes 2-4 screens to change weapons/features.
Ultimately this is why I suggested that aliens be unable to hear marine auto-squawks. Maybe not realistic, but then again I don't think the Aliens have quite mastered Rosetta Stone software either. After all, if the aliens can't hear mic communication (which your avatar is 'supposed' to be speaking), why hear the auto-squawks?
/discussion
Which is disappointing, because in a game like Splinter Cell where voice chat was implemented as beautifully and realistically as it was, using a third party voice chat is no less cheating than running an aimbot.
i always thought it was fun typing...seemed to be more interesting. Its like a message board(typing) vs a chat room(voice)...Message boards allow you to chill, come back when you want, and read it all at your convenience. Chat rooms (if they are instant..and the text disappears lol), are quick, and if you miss something you have to ask, "what? say again?" Not only that, but in recent, Voice chat is usually server wide...making the game a lot less interesting. I hate when i can hear the other team talking .. its just annoying.
anyway.. people love voice chat, and i guess its here to stay... bleh.
anyway, i always loved CS's key commands. XCV then 1-6 or so. yeah of course you have to memorize them for easiest use..but once you did, you could say everything you wanted, extremely quickly, without moving your fingers.
I actually dislike that style (which was kept in games like TF2)
<ul><li>ZXC are physically far from 123456</li><li>Hitting the right 123456[7890] button without looking is not as easy as other touch-typing</li><li>There was no helpful mnemonics to it.</li></ul>
<ul><li>ZXC are physically far from 123456</li><li>Hitting the right 123456[7890] button without looking is not as easy as other touch-typing</li><li>There was no helpful mnemonics to it.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well..they aren't near each other...(zxcv to 123456), but thats irrelevant isnt it? Dont you use WASD to move? And 123456 to change weapons? Then you use your thumb to hit xcv instead of space.