Tips from a old school PC fps player..(CS analysis)
fr0st2k
Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28210Members
Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28210Members
<div class="IPBDescription">i desperately want this game to be have an oldschool feel.</div><point taken>
Making a competitive game is the key to gaining a successful fanbase. If a game is too easy, too casual, people get bored and move on...quickly. I love how youre making the game moddable and including a level editor. Its things like this that make me believe this game might finally bring me back to what the glory days of CSbeta (and NS as well).
As such, i think it would be important to list what made those days so amazing. What part of CS made me get home from school at 3, and play until 3 in the morning.
1) Dedicated servers
-Perhaps look for a way to make this as simple as possible.
1b) Finding a "regular" server.
- Being part of a group was great. Logging on an meeting those same players, just like me, who would log on at the same time, and play the same amount of time as me. Knowing that i wouldnt have to coordinate with my friends to play, as they knew exactly what server to jump onto. Hearing people "ooo and ahhh" when you sign on, or quiver in fear when they saw your gamer tag...because they KNEW who you were there. Getting into your reg. server was like entrance into an exclusive club...I would sometimes sit for 5-10 minutes trying to get into a full server.
2)Memorize-able maps with strategies.
- Something about todays games where the maps simply aren't fun nor memorable. They are all just "DEATHMATCH" maps. In CS, when De_Dust popped up, or militia, nuke, prodigy...ASSAULT. You had strategies for each map. You knew the hotspots. You understood what you had to do...what your function was, where you were going to go...and hence, you knew where your enemies were going to be. This is something major that newer games do not have.
This is one reason I LOVE the idea behind NS. Its whole design works to encourage this kind of idea. I just hope they dont change this somehow.
3) more to be added by you guys.
Making a competitive game is the key to gaining a successful fanbase. If a game is too easy, too casual, people get bored and move on...quickly. I love how youre making the game moddable and including a level editor. Its things like this that make me believe this game might finally bring me back to what the glory days of CSbeta (and NS as well).
As such, i think it would be important to list what made those days so amazing. What part of CS made me get home from school at 3, and play until 3 in the morning.
1) Dedicated servers
-Perhaps look for a way to make this as simple as possible.
1b) Finding a "regular" server.
- Being part of a group was great. Logging on an meeting those same players, just like me, who would log on at the same time, and play the same amount of time as me. Knowing that i wouldnt have to coordinate with my friends to play, as they knew exactly what server to jump onto. Hearing people "ooo and ahhh" when you sign on, or quiver in fear when they saw your gamer tag...because they KNEW who you were there. Getting into your reg. server was like entrance into an exclusive club...I would sometimes sit for 5-10 minutes trying to get into a full server.
2)Memorize-able maps with strategies.
- Something about todays games where the maps simply aren't fun nor memorable. They are all just "DEATHMATCH" maps. In CS, when De_Dust popped up, or militia, nuke, prodigy...ASSAULT. You had strategies for each map. You knew the hotspots. You understood what you had to do...what your function was, where you were going to go...and hence, you knew where your enemies were going to be. This is something major that newer games do not have.
This is one reason I LOVE the idea behind NS. Its whole design works to encourage this kind of idea. I just hope they dont change this somehow.
3) more to be added by you guys.
Comments
This thread has potential to turn into something good. I understand where you're coming from but just tone it down since people on here are gonna get anal real fast, and I'd like to avoid another good-thread-turned-flame.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making a competitive game is the key to gaining a successful fanbase. If a game is too easy, too casual, people get bored and move on...quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between "casual" as in "casual gamer" and "casual" as in "not playing competitive matches". Confuse them at thy peril. Just because somebody isn't playing in a ladder of some sort doesn't mean they don't build their own computers and arrange LAN parties.
This thread has potential to turn into something good. I understand where you're coming from but just tone it down since people on here are gonna get anal real fast, and I'd like to avoid another good-thread-turned-flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really agree with PSA. I almost did this but for a different reason. No flame here but playing CS isnt what i call old school. I dont consider myself old school though i was playing Doom 1 and Marathon (Mac) when they were first released ( IDKFA anyone? or IDDQD).
Your post does have some very good points i would also like to highlight with my own experiences with games today. I love a good strategic game play that is rarely seen now. Not that it isnt an option but no one plays it. For example COD 4,5,4x2; each has a capture the flag mode or modes that allow for some strategy other than spray and pray/run and gun, but they are never popular because the masses would rather up their rank by good ol mass slaughter death match. All of these games also have a circle map style that is nauseating to me and my map conquering sensibility. I mean don't get me wrong, i love a good death match style game (Doom, Heretic, and Duke 3d to name a few) but games i stick to have depth, strategy, and of course fun.
I do know what you mean about being recognized. I was never one to strike fear in the hearts of my enemies but i do remember a lot of names that i loved playing against due to their skill. NS helped with the icon system that i thought was genius. Something that was earned and received not through an in-game mechanic but by the developers themselves which was world wide. I would like to see this community revived to it's passed glory in the CAL and NSLearn days (and the euro equivalent).
All in all i know what you mean and hope i get that same feeling again.
The leveldesigners probably always want a level to be memorable, it's just a matter of experience and luck to get that "memorable" map. Maybe to actually give a few pointers what makes a map memorable, there will be people who wants to create a level for NS2 that the team will buy after all. If you think you know something that makes a map memorable, say so.
Dedicated servers I think is already on the list, especially since we are supposed to be able to create our own game-mods?
And the last is just a matter of how you play, but that all boils down to fanaticism and that CS was a great game unparalleled at that time.
And CS is a pretty poor choice to compare to since at each round it's equal and strategies are easily developed since you play for only a few minutes each round, and you can see patterns against enemies easily just by timing, but when playing NS you'll find yourself at the beginning when everyone could be anywhere on the map after you've died.
Then strategy in this game comes down to the commander and internal team communication (only), but again I think that question is solved by the commander and they're focusing on doing just this anyway.
My opinion on this that the game will have alien classes and weapons for the marines that are equally useful. I have played very shortly TF2 (one night) and there's just weirdness with the Pyromancer in my opinion. It's such a jokingly easy thing to run after someone, hold the button and just swing away and wait for them to die by the flame even if you haven't gotten a proper hit for long. Equal level of classes, and then there should be advancement for others (Fade, Skulk, Jetpack etc in NS1) for more experienced players to try.
Then strategy in this game comes down to the commander and internal team communication (only), but again I think that question is solved by the commander and they're focusing on doing just this anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is surprisingly complex with economy rounds, timings, scouting, breaching, some bits of physchology and so on. It's different than NS, but in no way simple, easy or unimaginative strategical and tactical wise. Of course in public play it degrades into less awesome stuff, but so does any other game, including NS.
As to your points, I would think point 1 would depend very much on the community, as well as point 2, which would rely on community mappers. Basically, all these points are for a better community, rather than on the ability of the devs.
it's funny what you mentioned about finding a regular server. totally forgot about the days of spamming 'refresh' in console to try and get in your regular server when it was full. or after a while, knowing the admin, having them kick a random so you could get in. and i agree, the community affects it a lot. a lot of the players i played with you began to know, some just on a gaming level, but i've actually met some great friends out of game and offline (i was in college, so hopefully i don't come off as that much of a nerd). but yes, that sense of community is important, to see the same people consistently, to play with/against them and chat with them. watch them improve as you improve. especially early on, when no one really knows what they are doing. it does build some sort of bond that makes you want to play more and get your friends to try the game out.
on a side note, i recently started playing NS1 again (after 5 years or so) and it's hilarious how much the game has grown. i remember when i first played it nobody knew what we going on. this trial and error period was great and i still remember players who i played with. likewise with cs, same kind of thing. because we were all relatively new. everything was about discovery and oftentimes hilarious. (why did you camp there, why did you build that there, why did you buy that gun.. etc)
so i am hoping the current NS1 servers will also run a dedicated NS2 server. but it would be nice to see new servers brought up too.. and some will probably fail, but i think the list of friends will grow (especially with STEAM) will really be the key.
i think in terms of maps, it's all up to the developers, i can't say much about this because i don't know about designing a map. however, what i do know, is if the game is engaging enough and the community is there, then we, as the players, will naturally learn the maps. sure, NS1 is more complicated in ways than CS. but i didn't consciously memorize any CS maps, but due to hours and hours of play... i just started knowing. like i mentioned i recently started playing NS1 again, and the same thing. i was so lost at first, had my map open half the time, but the more i play, the better i understand the map without having to check it.
one thing that i think will help the games growth is some sort of stats system (HLstatX). i think it's a double edge sword. it's natural for players to go through a period where they cared direly about stats... what rank are we on the server? what our K:D ratio was.. etc. on a positive note, it is something to keep you coming back and working/learning to do better for yourself and your team. it gives you a reason to keep coming back. of course some of the negatives include, very selfish play, stacked teams, baiting, statwhoring. but a few of these i think to a certain extent are unavoidable. i think stats are great, but more team based and goal oriented would be helpful.
I guess your point being "CS isn't stupid", and it isn't. It's intense, short and a well planned strategy does change things dramatically.
However most of it takes place under five minutes or less. And economy and choice of weapon comes to play only at start. It's pretty much the opposite for NS.
There's of course a pretty intense amount of psychology and tactics in it but when it comes to NS, it's pretty irrelevant that player A meets player B at the very exact spot from spawn, since it will only occur at the very beginning of the NS round.
I can't see many things in CS that should or could influence NS or how the core-game should be like ideally.
Earn personal money to buy things for? I don't think it's like that.
Does the game reset? It doesn't.
Does both sides have symmetrical playstyles? Nope.
Does the game help players communicate? Not really, you use ventrilo and see the comrades on your map disappear with a few voice-commands.
We should be looking at perhaps Savage 2 if we were to say anything about making the game a success, however it haven't been a success so it's a pretty moot point.
Not a CS-player but this is at least what I think, hope I'm not too far off.
So basically I'm wondering... is there <i>really</i> something we can draw from a core-player from CS and his experiences? What would that be?
Right now it's a bit like comparing a paintball session with soccer.
Implementing a completely retarded and broken gimmick such as a rotating door works.
Seriously guys if you want to pitch an idea of how you think the game should look, feel or play that's what Ideas & Suggestions is for.
Unique feel to each major room or hallway along with different movement paths for aliens vs humans due to vents.
Bast & Tanith:
Each hallway was different.
Marine start and each of the hives had their own look and feel. Even out of the way areas like the cockpit to refinery had individual detail. You knew where you were by texture, structure and other clues.
The theme made the map fun to play on even if game play suffered.
Overall consistent theme.
Veil & Eclipse:
Consistent and eye pleasing textures throughout along with balanced game play means repetition in play, making the map memorable without any kind of unique feeling.
Fun names for areas like Keyhole make for good memories.
There's several other good maps, they will all be in play: Nancy, Lost, Metal, Caged
The maps that are less liked are both annoying to play and not fun to be in. I can't even think of their names because I dislike them so much. Overly complicated maps (Shiva I think is one) are more visually appealing but annoying to play on either side. Some maps just aren't fun to play for various reasons.
But I'm sure we'll all remember eclipse the longest (for having the most campable room in the game as the only exit from maintenance)
Hehe blame that on the engine not being able to handle moving players around on a horizontally moving platform :P
Some others, just for the heck of it:
Dual siege spot+lork on clorf (which got fixed)
Noname (which got a boring name in the end :( )
Red room (which is still red)
One exit engine hive (which now has two)
two button door, hive only resnodes and a weldable resnode (oh no I didn't :P)
Oh and I luv the secrets :P
@ the "game should not be too easy or people will leave it alone". I think TF2 nullifies that point, it is easy to play casually and fun even, while there is that "deeper skill level" to it to keep the clanners happy... NS2 will probably have the same stuff, easy to learn hard to master with dedicated servers.
There's a bit too much whine in this suggestion, but I want to point out why you should agree with it. I'll admit that causing 4 marines to go "wtfbbqratehax" simultaneously because you killed them before they could even start tracking you in a long hallway as a skulk is probably the most gratifying part of playing on pubs. And realizing that the entire marine team is giving up because you've gone fade is an ego boost. But the reason newbies get frustrated with NS isn't because they die over and over. It's because they can't figure out why they died. The game provides very few clues that make it clear what tactical mistakes were made or contextualizes the death with your previous actions. A newbie can even be doing everything right: running around welding everything up, following his teammates down a hallway to the commanders objectives, prepared to kill any aliens he sees, when all of a sudden everyone's dead and he's taking damage from gas when all he saw was a blur.
So if any concessions are made towards "casual" gamers, they should be first oriented towards fixing that. I'm not sure how but honestly slowing combat down would probably do a lot to help that (as much as that suggestion makes me cringe). The death cam feature from TF2 also helps a lot, one of the better features from that game IMO. Anyway I think Flayra&co. have already realized this problem so it's probable they've already worked it in.
This thread has potential to turn into something good. I understand where you're coming from but just tone it down since people on here are gonna get anal real fast, and I'd like to avoid another good-thread-turned-flame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like those ideas.
Thats what happend my topic ): got out barly alive outta that one
cheack it out
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107773" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107773</a>
ps i dunno if it is against the rules to point to another topic, help somebody?
The thread would have potential if the development team hadn't already covered it. Anal enough?
EDIT: To put it bluntly your post sounds like you're trying to say "I'm pro this is how you do it, because I'm so pro and you're not", it sounds like you're talking down to the community and a development team of experienced professionals.
The forum isn't just for the developers, it's also for the members of the community, and it should be obvious from their bizarre suggestions that many members of the community don't understand how NS works or how to make games fun in general. It can't hurt to talk about that stuff, can it? If you pay attention to his interviews, Charlie is well aware that he shouldn't take suggestions straight from the community (I think that was the biggest lesson he learned during the 2.0 beta), so if that's what you're worried about I'd say it is unfounded.
Anyway, personally I wish people would stop getting their feelings hurt when someone says they're good or bad at a video game. Base your ego on something more tangible please, for your own benefit. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(I hope that's taken in the spirit it's meant.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Anyway, personally I wish people would stop getting their feelings hurt when someone says they're good or bad at a video game. Base your ego on something more tangible please, for your own benefit. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(I hope that's taken in the spirit it's meant.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's clever to say to UWE "My idea works because its your idea"... right?
Well we don't all have to be clever do we? :P
I agree 100% with Renegade. Please. Don't trash the game play. Is a fake strat for sales; the game is not cheap, so your captive market is mainly your Fanbase. In the long run, you'll get much more money from regulars in a Constie-like program or running your own game servers to clans or just plain community support for updates and new content. Be smart.
<!--quoteo(post=1738107:date=Nov 18 2009, 03:12 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 18 2009, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS is surprisingly complex with economy rounds, timings, scouting, breaching, some bits of physchology and so on. It's different than NS, but in no way simple, easy or unimaginative strategical and tactical wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1738184:date=Nov 18 2009, 05:41 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 18 2009, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 has a low skill ceiling, it isn't "hard to master" .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If TF2's huge combination of class weapons and abilities and unlocks has little or no strategic depth, then there's no hope at all for CS. Hell, the available weapons all decompose into just a few archetypes with minor stat-tweaks.
Yet all I can think of is that you're basing this on the fact that:
1) In TF2, noobs can contribute meaningfully to the game.
and
2) In TF2, it's almost impossible to carry your team.
Neither of which has anything to do with skill ceilings, and everything to do with your ego and obsession with "PLAY2WIN" mentality. It's funny how the removal of the conc-jump suddenly turned Team Fortress from presumably the DEEPEST MOST AMAZING GAME EVER to CASUAL SCRUB HORSE######.
*YAWN*
It's something weird when I decide to fire up NS, join a few servers, and occasionally get a "oh, haven't seen you in a while" from the olde regulars. Weird in a good way, like visiting your hometown or something. Although it might be a testament to how horrid I was compared to these guys.
I definitely really enjoyed playing regularly and meeting up with other regulars on a few servers (obviously low ping was the first factor when starting out, and then it was just stick with the servers I liked). However, this is something that develops on its own and there's not a whole lot NS2 can do to create it. I mean, there's the Steam community stuff, but that's about it.
So if any concessions are made towards "casual" gamers, they should be first oriented towards fixing that. I'm not sure how but honestly slowing combat down would probably do a lot to help that (as much as that suggestion makes me cringe). The death cam feature from TF2 also helps a lot, one of the better features from that game IMO. Anyway I think Flayra&co. have already realized this problem so it's probable they've already worked it in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is an amazing post. i agree with everything said.
Part of a casuals, even a hardcore player's excitement towards a game is reliant on whether or not they can improve. If they can't figure out how to improve, then they will give up and most likely label the game, "too hard" or "stupid."
However...just being able to see that you are being bested by skill...that riles up our sense of competition.
Again, i agree wholeheartedly with what was written by noncomposmentis. Great post.
<!--quoteo(post=1738200:date=Nov 19 2009, 01:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 19 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet all I can think of is that you're basing this on the fact that:
1) In TF2, noobs can contribute meaningfully to the game.
and
2) In TF2, it's almost impossible to carry your team.
Neither of which has anything to do with skill ceilings, and everything to do with your ego and obsession with "PLAY2WIN" mentality. It's funny how the removal of the conc-jump suddenly turned Team Fortress from presumably the DEEPEST MOST AMAZING GAME EVER to CASUAL SCRUB HORSE######.
*YAWN*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played TF2? Its lost everything that made TFC fun, and has thus, lost most of its fanbase and popularity. It Fizzled...like most games. I brought up CS because in its prime, it maintained a server list of over 40k. Remember "refreshing" back in the WON days? You would hit refresh then go get a sandwich. Not necessarily because it was slow...but because there were SO MANY SERVERS. What made CS so popular??? Why was it such a huge hit that attracted player after player? The reason i made this thread is to analyze what it is that CS:S and TF2 did to lose its flair. I personally think it was catering to the casual crowd. When CS:S came out, the recoil was such a pain that headshots came out of no where. Spray and Pray became the new practice. You no longer had to crouch to shoot. All the little thing that you learned as you played vanished. Having actually played and gotten good at CS was actually a crutch when you went to source. It was ridiculous, and CS:S failed due to it.
I'm asking for others opinions concerning what they think could have changed things , and would love to hear it.
For what it's worth I always thought CS was a retarded game. Modern Warfare 2, Transformers 2, and Britney Spears are all popular too; quality has literally nothing to do with popularity. Like Starcraft, Counter-Strike's popularity can be attributed to far more than the fans of both would have you think.
That said, I can't really see what your original post, NS2, and CS have to do with each other - discounting the whine rant at the beginning about how 'casual scrubs' are ruining your PLAY2WIN PRO CAL VET BADASSEDNESS.
This may come as a shock to you, but most people don't play games just to slap a clan tag on like a retard and flip out into a nerd rage about being #1.
1) In TF2, noobs can contribute meaningfully to the game.
2) In TF2, it's almost impossible to carry your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because two things suddenly justifies an entire truckload of fail. maybe try thinking next time. thinking about the Benny-Hill-style gameplay that lacks any sort of higher purpose or structure beyond that of an ADD daycare center or the silly game mechanics that pander to the brainless such as randomized 'crits' (seriously?), 'nemesis' mode, and jars of piss.
And yes CS:S can be thought of in the same way since they dropped the bar faster than a weightlifter with a hernia (spray'n'pray headshots anyone?).
CS 1.6, despite simple and reflective weapons, maps, and gameplay had depth (and still does) because the line between win and lose was drawn not only by raw skill or teamwork but often required cunning psychology.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Moriarte</b>: Ignoring IW.net, is the PC version a direct port of the console version?
<b>Mackey-IW</b>: No, PC has custom stuff like mouse control, text chat in game, and graphics settings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Seriously?</i>
Look I'm not going to deny that TF2 isn't my most favorite game ever, but stop pretending that the only way NS2 is going to avoid OMG FAILUR is to either make the game a direct copy-pasta port of NS1, or worse, making it even MORE pro-PRO. Just because you wear a clan tag, just because you may even actually be IN a clan, just because you even took part in a ###### LADDER MATCH doesn't actually mean you're opinion matters whatsoever or that you even know what makes a game good. All that means is that you take a game more seriously than me - it doesn't even mean you're necessarily a <i>better player</i>. After all, what happened to the CAL division of Natural Selection? Oh, that's right, it was dissolved because the entire competitive scene were a bunch of wallhacking ######s with piss-poor attitudes.
NS1 already tried that with the Veteran program and it was an epic cluster-###### of Homeric proportions. The last thing we need is to design the game around what people like SentrySteve want, where they sound like Glenn Beck fear-mongering about what a complete pile of steaming crap the game will inevitably become if we don't implement SKILL BASED EVERYTHING RIGHT ****ING NOW AAAAAAAH.
I will once again tout out Tribes 2 as the ideal antithesis of what you are complaining is required to make a game 'good'. If you aren't familiar with it, I will be more than happy to indulge you as to how the game was brilliantly designed with almost limitless skill caps and yet at the same time didn't require bunnyhopping, twitch hitscan guns, and a cadre of self-proclaimed 'professionals' screaming to work.