I'm quite confident that balance itself could be achieved to some extend without bringing in the commander, but having a commander could also adress a dozen other issues in NS' gameplay.
I think going without a commander is a little like NS 1.04 was: In theory it has got a plenty of wonderful elements, but in practice you never get to use the elements to full extend because the system as a whole is so inflexible and fragile. Once you fix something, something else gets broken or has its further development blocked by the previously fixed things.
You know, I think the topic could be true with a little modification: I don't think Alien Commander is a good <i>name.</i> Apparently, it leads people to believe that both sides will now be identical and skulks will run around with lmgs and yell for bacteria packs every ten seconds. They should've called it, I dunno, "hivemind" or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1738668:date=Nov 22 2009, 02:14 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Nov 22 2009, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, I think the topic could be true with a little modification: I don't think Alien Commander is a good <i>name.</i> Apparently, it leads people to believe that both sides will now be identical and skulks will run around with lmgs and yell for bacteria packs every ten seconds. They should've called it, I dunno, "hivemind" or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But then everyone would go 'SOUNDS LIKE ALIEN COMMANDO'
<!--quoteo(post=1738825:date=Nov 23 2009, 03:40 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 23 2009, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In one of their last blogs or interviews they actually called if the 'Hivemind' so I dont know why were talking about 'should' here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well in that case I think ALIEN COMMANDO is a better name. They should call it that.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1738825:date=Nov 22 2009, 10:40 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 22 2009, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In one of their last blogs or interviews they actually called if the 'Hivemind' so I dont know why were talking about 'should' here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup to me its always been the hivemind
Just did a search for hivemind and found 519 results, first post with the word hivemind is by MonsieurEvil the 29th jan 2002.
On one hand, "Hivemind" works, but could also suggest a sort of person-less communal system, like the one which allows you to see enemies in other locations of the map, parasitized marines, etc.
"Overmind", on the other hand, will get Starcraft fans pissed at you.
"Queen", on the grasping hand, is unquestionably an individual entity, even if there is no immediately identifiable body to house it. (Whether it's worth the possible ribald jokes from the younger players is another matter.)
<!--quoteo(post=1738261:date=Nov 19 2009, 09:19 PM:name=fr0st2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fr0st2k @ Nov 19 2009, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS, the difference between aliens and Marines are CLEAR. They bother feel completely different. However, once you eradicate that difference, balancing will force both sides to become more and more the same.
I can see it now: Marines -> ranged team / Aliens -> Melee team
The alien commander is just a bad idea, and imo will most likely steam roll the uniqueness of each side.
I actually posted a suggestion concerning balance and differentiation that i feel goes with this in the suggestion forum.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107932" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107932</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry to say the aliens are close range and long range due to ability to jump farther as fast as bullets make turrets them self's the aliens seemed to be over powered in NS1
The Alien "Hive Mind" is def needed for balance. I can see its function as picking the chambers to use and possibly the placement of res nodes but I dont see much after that. Since the gorge is staying in the game I assume they will still be the OC/ selected chamber placers. If what I stated is true, this really doesnt change anything on how aliens play overall. Before you relied on random Gorges to choose which chamber & res nodes to take. All the "Hive Mind" does is make 1 person in charge of upgrade paths & res placement instead of the 2-4 random gorges (which those players before had to dedicate their time saving res to get the rest of the team upgrades & res which took a while since it is a shared res system and gorges didn't get priority even tho their role is the most important).
The marine commander's job in NS1 was EVERYTHING except fighting. They upgraded, collected all the res, and dropped buildings & weap/armor for marines. In other words, the command had control over what marines jobs were (unlike Aliens who could choose their forms/role as long as they had res). The benefit to the Marine system was it could effectively use res (more evident in large games) since it was all planned out by one person. The flaw was commanding relied heavily on a skilled players and they had to worry about every place on the map they had marines fighting while keeping up with upgrades/res nodes/supplies. For the combat marines themselves, unless they were given more advance armor, death is of almost no consequence. It cost an individual marine nothing to die since their weaps dropped on death and can be picked up again. Armor is the only thing lost on death.
Alien advantage in NS1 is delegation. Each player had control over their role and could thus focus on just that role. Most would focus on combat & didnt have to worry about placing buildings. Others only worried about building structures in strategic locations. It spread out the work load evenly amongst the players. That in itself made aliens powerful. The downfall of the aliens tho is the res system. Alien excel at their job when there are few other aliens. They individually get res faster and thus can do their specific job faster without worry of not having enough res. But in games of 8+ players on the alien side, res comes in slow and thus limits how often each person can build/gestate to high life form. This compounded onto the fact that each player wants to do their own thing makes the res used inefficiently. And losing a building/high life form early in the game can be a huge setback to each individual players res thus causing them a lengthy downtime in a game where time is of utmost importance. Death to an alien is a big deal. Dying as a lerk or gorge costs the player gestation time & res early on in the game.
In small games, Aliens have the advantage because its more res for each individual player. Marines effectiveness grows the more res they have. Thats the very reason they do better in large games because res nodes can be built much faster early on. The opposite is true for aliens. The more aliens there are, the less effective each individual is.
And due to the "tech room" system being used, marines will now use a similar system that aliens always had, the hive system (now called tech system). Therefore both sides are taking up an aspect from the other to help balance the game overall. Aliens get a more efficient tech/res node aspect & marines now need to claim other important rooms to advance their fighting ability (just like aliens have always had to do).
<!--quoteo(post=1738347:date=Nov 20 2009, 08:52 AM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(xmaine @ Nov 20 2009, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im with you man. i dont really support the alien commander.
"you have to test it out so stop whining"
this is the stupidest thing a person could say. you can say that for everything.
"hey guys, lets have each player control 3 skulks at the same time" "woah thats a horrible idea" "no stfu, you have to test it out first"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, playing as a pack of a lot smaller skulks sounds quite intriguing...
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1743169:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:37 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Dec 9 2009, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, playing as a pack of a lot smaller skulks sounds quite intriguing...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> RaydenUni (from IRC) had a number of discussions about how to design a game that implemented uneven teams in a few different ways, one of the thoughts was how to work a team that focuses on numbers, one key thought was to have each player control a swarm, with various ideas of how to implement it.
<!--quoteo(post=1743992:date=Dec 16 2009, 09:49 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Dec 16 2009, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They had it before, too (hHvemind). Now it's a playerrole, before it was "metagaming".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fine. The aliens have evolved and the hivemind has evolved with it.
Comments
I think going without a commander is a little like NS 1.04 was: In theory it has got a plenty of wonderful elements, but in practice you never get to use the elements to full extend because the system as a whole is so inflexible and fragile. Once you fix something, something else gets broken or has its further development blocked by the previously fixed things.
But then everyone would go 'SOUNDS LIKE ALIEN COMMANDO'
Well in that case I think ALIEN COMMANDO is a better name. They should call it that.
Yup to me its always been the hivemind
Just did a search for hivemind and found 519 results, first post with the word hivemind is by MonsieurEvil the 29th jan 2002.
"Overmind", on the other hand, will get Starcraft fans pissed at you.
"Queen", on the grasping hand, is unquestionably an individual entity, even if there is no immediately identifiable body to house it. (Whether it's worth the possible ribald jokes from the younger players is another matter.)
I can see it now: Marines -> ranged team / Aliens -> Melee team
The alien commander is just a bad idea, and imo will most likely steam roll the uniqueness of each side.
I actually posted a suggestion concerning balance and differentiation that i feel goes with this in the suggestion forum.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107932" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107932</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry to say the aliens are close range and long range due to ability to jump farther as fast as bullets make turrets them self's the aliens seemed to be over powered in NS1
The marine commander's job in NS1 was EVERYTHING except fighting. They upgraded, collected all the res, and dropped buildings & weap/armor for marines. In other words, the command had control over what marines jobs were (unlike Aliens who could choose their forms/role as long as they had res). The benefit to the Marine system was it could effectively use res (more evident in large games) since it was all planned out by one person. The flaw was commanding relied heavily on a skilled players and they had to worry about every place on the map they had marines fighting while keeping up with upgrades/res nodes/supplies. For the combat marines themselves, unless they were given more advance armor, death is of almost no consequence. It cost an individual marine nothing to die since their weaps dropped on death and can be picked up again. Armor is the only thing lost on death.
Alien advantage in NS1 is delegation. Each player had control over their role and could thus focus on just that role. Most would focus on combat & didnt have to worry about placing buildings. Others only worried about building structures in strategic locations. It spread out the work load evenly amongst the players. That in itself made aliens powerful. The downfall of the aliens tho is the res system. Alien excel at their job when there are few other aliens. They individually get res faster and thus can do their specific job faster without worry of not having enough res. But in games of 8+ players on the alien side, res comes in slow and thus limits how often each person can build/gestate to high life form. This compounded onto the fact that each player wants to do their own thing makes the res used inefficiently. And losing a building/high life form early in the game can be a huge setback to each individual players res thus causing them a lengthy downtime in a game where time is of utmost importance. Death to an alien is a big deal. Dying as a lerk or gorge costs the player gestation time & res early on in the game.
In small games, Aliens have the advantage because its more res for each individual player. Marines effectiveness grows the more res they have. Thats the very reason they do better in large games because res nodes can be built much faster early on. The opposite is true for aliens. The more aliens there are, the less effective each individual is.
And due to the "tech room" system being used, marines will now use a similar system that aliens always had, the hive system (now called tech system). Therefore both sides are taking up an aspect from the other to help balance the game overall. Aliens get a more efficient tech/res node aspect & marines now need to claim other important rooms to advance their fighting ability (just like aliens have always had to do).
"you have to test it out so stop whining"
this is the stupidest thing a person could say. you can say that for everything.
"hey guys, lets have each player control 3 skulks at the same time"
"woah thats a horrible idea"
"no stfu, you have to test it out first"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, playing as a pack of a lot smaller skulks sounds quite intriguing...
RaydenUni (from IRC) had a number of discussions about how to design a game that implemented uneven teams in a few different ways, one of the thoughts was how to work a team that focuses on numbers, one key thought was to have each player control a swarm, with various ideas of how to implement it.
Fine. The aliens have evolved and the hivemind has evolved with it.