Why are we so confident in UWE?
NolSinkler
On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation
On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation
We think that Unknown Worlds Entertainment will release a stellar game, and soon. Why is that? What have they proven to us? Why are we so hopeful? These are all legitimate questions. This company has given us nothing, and yet, as soon as somebody points out this fact all of the die hard NS1 fans get defensive and start launching counter attacks. So why are we all defending a company that has only produced one retail game, a Sudoku game at that? The more we defend such a company, the less they have to defend themselves. So why don't we stop defending this company and let them defend themselves by showing us actual game content? Sure they've showed us a few screenshots and videos of three of the aliens running. And that's all they have after all of these years of work? So I ask you all a serious question; why are we defending a company that obviously can't defend itself? If we stop standing up for the company and let all of the naysayers say what they will, they will have to defend themselves. They will have to show game content; that is, if they have any. Do you understand?
Is it that we're afraid that they might not be very far in the production of this game, so we defend them as a way to cover up that fear? Or maybe we're so hopeful that they are almost done with this game, that when anybody says they might not be we close up and start spewing nonsense about how they produced a great game in NS1 and that therefore they will produce NS2 soon. You say we have to be patient. Why should we be? You say this company doesn't owe us anything. Of course they don't! But we don't owe them anything either! So why do we stand up for them, defend them, when the truth is they have given us no defense of their own?
You might say I'm a troll. This is the NS2 forum, and yet the moderators silence any unrest about NS2 as soon as it begins! So why have the NS forums become infused with a culture of fear of the worst and hope for the best, instead of a culture where we can talk about anything without fear? Why can't we talk about these things without longtime forum members getting angry and defensive? These are my questions.
Is it that we're afraid that they might not be very far in the production of this game, so we defend them as a way to cover up that fear? Or maybe we're so hopeful that they are almost done with this game, that when anybody says they might not be we close up and start spewing nonsense about how they produced a great game in NS1 and that therefore they will produce NS2 soon. You say we have to be patient. Why should we be? You say this company doesn't owe us anything. Of course they don't! But we don't owe them anything either! So why do we stand up for them, defend them, when the truth is they have given us no defense of their own?
You might say I'm a troll. This is the NS2 forum, and yet the moderators silence any unrest about NS2 as soon as it begins! So why have the NS forums become infused with a culture of fear of the worst and hope for the best, instead of a culture where we can talk about anything without fear? Why can't we talk about these things without longtime forum members getting angry and defensive? These are my questions.
Comments
Is it that we're afraid that they might not be very far in the production of this game, so we defend them as a way to cover up that fear? Or maybe we're so hopeful that they are almost done with this game, that when anybody says they might not be we close up and start spewing nonsense about how they produced a great game in NS1 and that therefore they will produce NS2 soon. You say we have to be patient. Why should we be? You say this company doesn't owe us anything. Of course they don't! But we don't owe them anything either! So why do we stand up for them, defend them, when the truth is they have given us no defense of their own?
You might say I'm a troll. This is the NS2 forum, and yet the moderators silence any unrest about NS2 as soon as it begins! So why have the NS forums become infused with a culture of fear of the worst and hope for the best, instead of a culture where we can talk about anything without fear? Why can't we talk about these things without longtime forum members getting angry and defensive? These are my questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No doubt this may get locked, but with their undying support for NS1 for many years, I think most people are assured NS2 isn't just a quick cash scheme like CoD:MW2.
This is also apparent on how they are with information about the developement process. Are you hoping they fail so you have a new Duke Nukem Forever to talk about?
They also have taken community suggestions just like VALVE has done, which is another insurance NS2 isn't completely being made solely for the "masses". Like the TAZER/Pistol+Knife debate.
Sure this is their first commercial game, and one new to the franchise(UW/NS)/company would be leary about buying a pre-order at the dop of a hat, but I would think a consti member would know how successful the DEVs were with NS1(most downloaded/played HL1 MOD) and would not be worried about NS2.
And on that note, 1/2 trolling and 1/2 maybe serious your post was.
Yours, on the other hand, is a very well put together post. To ensure it doesn't get locked, please people, keep it civil.
Most of us have played NS a great deal, for free. You sure are ungrateful. They provided a fun game, with no cost, and updated it fairly often for a long while, also for free.
Ignoring their past success is just as bad as ignoring a company's past failures.
But to answer what you are asking, I myself have used the, I have faith in the developers because of their previous work done in NS1, and yes while not a lot of information has been released, you really only have two options, having faith in them, or be skeptical of what they are creating. At the same time you say they haven't released much to "prove" themselves at the same time we can not judge what we do not know, so based on what they have done and the little I have seen I choose to have faith that this game will be great and on par with NS1, and if I am wrong than so be it.
And I don't see it as defending them, I see it more as giving my opinion and view on what I believe they will do and of course it could be wrong, it is their game they have every right to do whatever it is they wish with it, and NS1 turned out great without any of our help so WHY and I am asking you this, should this be any different now just because we are aware of this games development unlike NS1's.
And on a side note to be honest I expected them to delay this game and and show/reveal very little of it because of their past track records, I remember back when 2.00 was going to come out it took months and months and.. months and months for them to actually release it AFTER they stated it would be released SOON, so basically anytime I hear an expected released date I tack on a minimum of a year hence why I believe we won't see any playable (not the alpha) versions of NS2 until late 2010 if even. So again it is their game and company they don't need to defend themselves and if they don't have the resources and work done to actually reveal or show anything then obviously they can't release the information and I'm sure if they had it they actually would, it's not so much a matter of them withholding information which I think your implying, but having the work to reveal to us, and at the same time forcing, and rushing them to produce the game faster will only cause problems, glitches, imbalances, missed features etc. So just let the men work on their job and give any and all helpful information that you can to help the procedure along.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games Credited
Lair (2007), Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc.
Rise & Fall: Civilizations at War (2006), Midway Home Entertainment, Inc.
Empires: Dawn of the Modern World (2003), Activision Publishing, Inc.
Natural Selection (2002),
Empire Earth (2001), Sierra On-Line, Inc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that was taken from <a href="http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,51594/" target="_blank">http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...eloperId,51594/</a> .
Flayra's portfolio isn't as large as that however if you quit your job to pursue your dream of opening your own gaming studio, naturally it would be a smaller portfolio. If you want to try and have faith in UWE, look at Charlie. He has not only made Natural Selection 1 but his achievement of managing to put together the business from nothing, in such a complex and competitive industry is something to be aware of. It's not easy at all, which will make the development team more than anyone else want to release the game.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time</a>
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time_Tracker" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time_Tracker</a>
<a href="http://www.halflife2.net/wiki/index.php/Valve_time" target="_blank">http://www.halflife2.net/wiki/index.php/Valve_time</a>
A fun discussion:
<a href="http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=20677631098&sid=3000" target="_blank">http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topic...98&sid=3000</a>
And on that note, it is either that you want to be hopeful, or you always expect failure until something is "physically" produced. Since I am from the NS1 release era, I'm more on the side of the fence that expects that this game is being made. Also I do not expect, nor should anyone else, to see great details about the final product. What I mean is, people shouldn't expect previews/recordings of demo gameplay. When information comes, thats when it comes. There is no point demanding/expecting it to be shown right away, if that paticular thing for NS2 is not in a "showable" state to the public.
It would be bad if they showed alpha/beta models of the Alien classes, and they somehow land on one of the game review sights with them bashing it about the quality of the graphics, without making the statement that they are alpha/beta developer screenshots for reference purposes.
You have to keep some things internally when it comes to any kind of group/company, otherwise people will get put off by the unfinished product (which is sad when people don't have the common sense to realize it is the unfinished product).
One time have to be the first ^^ Even EA started some place.
And im confident that it's not a Quick cash game.
I respect them for making a game like NS1 and it was for free!
Thats why i think we owe them. They made a super game for free and now they try to make a cool game from scratch. That is Impressive
But i guess i said enough since i was only gonna say one thing^^
//Matrix
Honestly if it was made by EA i would NOT BUY It xD
Could you imaging what a mess it would be? gee
Defend themselves from what exactly? When people come to this website, register for the forums, read the dev diaries, then post negative comments, what do you think their motivation is? I'll tell you, they want the game to come out just as much as everyone else. They speak negatively because they come from a position of entitlement. "This game is <b>my</b> game, and it should be done the way I think is best." People that come from this position have the strange idea that this is some kind of battle, where they are attacking UWE's mighty fortress with their unblockable arguments and UWE must defend themselves by releasing game footage showing how awesome it is! It's full of personal drama! Like the following quote:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why don't we stop defending this company and let them defend themselves by showing us actual game content?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...except showing game content isn't really a defense, you know, in real life. This isn't a battle. Releasing screenshots, etc., are promotions, aimed at hyping the game for potential customers. You and all entitled followers are people that are already sold on the game, clearly. Thus there's no real reason to pander to you.
For those of us "diehard NS1 fans" there's good reason to expect good things for NS2. We've seen the development of NS1 unfold from version 1 to 3, and seen how Charlie got better with time as he learned the lessons that all game developers with online communities must master. NS 2.0 beta was a pretty public disaster and it was clear that some major kinks were being worked out in how to produce a game. Human beings learn quickly from mistakes like that and UWE are human beings. They happen to be pretty nice human beings at that. I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing them success.
Add to that other companies being very successful with their first game, such as Half Life or Black & White. Look how those companies turned out.
Because every thing I've seen that Flayra has touched has been awesome.
In short, most things I loved in NS1 may not even be in NS2. If that's the case I may find myself disliking NS2 but there's also the new AvP game coming up.
A good point well made tempered by:
<!--quoteo(post=1738765:date=Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 supports multiple commanders so if it never worked in NS1 how can they make multiple work in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So many people are making the mistake of assuming if UWE haven't talked about a feature = it'll be a carbon copy port from NS1. Flayra has said NS1 commanding is crap, it'll be different in NS2.
And I wouldn't expect much depth from AvP. At least not in the same way as NS.
I don't get way there is so much hate for developers that are not Valve or Blizzard. Infinity Ward is a very good studio and they made Modern Warfare 2 with a great amount of care. Though, Activision does treat the Call of Duty property as a quick cash scheme by having multiple developers work on one franchise. Currently, Infinity Ward (very good studio) and Tryarche (mediocre studio) are on the property, with a third not-yet-revealed development team coming soon too.
cos if it was, first, it would have to be quick .. :D
Saying something is crap and it will change doesn't really mean anything to me until I know exactly what changes.
I think the <i>main</i> reason behind people's faith here is the herculean achievement that NS1 was. And the OP doesn't even mention NS1. Small wonder he doesn't understand why people like UWE.
Its more a question of support. I support them because they are taking things a hard way, because they are an indie developer, and because I think they are challenging themselves in making a unique type of game.
I encourage them to take thing the way they want to, and make it into something they love. I feel they have more love for making a great game than a love for money, and if this is the case and they work it to their fullest intent, I think it can only be successful.
To me when you are doing things to your fullest intent, it is parallel to developing your art. UWE, to me, are artists in the game business.
I think the <i>main</i> reason behind people's faith here is the herculean achievement that NS1 was. And the OP doesn't even mention NS1. Small wonder he doesn't understand why people like UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sir, you missed my point. The point being, there are of course many attacks on NS2, people trying to get information, and all of the rest. And then the community proceeds to defend NS1, so UWE actually doesn't have to defend themselves from the attacks. Surely NS1 was a great game. But it seems that UWE is relying on its community to silence any dissent against the game. This means that they don't have to defend themselves; they don't have to prove their game, because they have a band of loyal followers who will argue, to the death, that the game will be absolutely awesome. So they haven't proven themselves; now if the community stopped blocking the attacks, which are meant for the team to answer, they would be forced to confront the issue themselves. Correct? Then they would be defending themselves, which would require them release information, which would actually be better for the community as a whole. Right? So seeing this, why do we defend them so vigorously?
And sir, please don't tell me that I don't value Natural Selection. That's absolutely false. However, this is a different game, and I refuse to defend a game that the actual developers of the game won't defend for themselves.
With that in mind, there probably is not too much to release, or if they do release too much it could perhaps hurt their product.
Usually when I hear about a game that could interest me significantly, most of the times it's been at press conferences that comes up in gaming magazines or gaming sites, and when they finally show gameplay that <i>hooks</i> then it's in beta.
They have in my eyes only opened the prepurchase for the loyal fanbase, and lo and behold it worked since we have funded a lot more things that they would have scrapped otherwise. I personally bought my copy since the price not too high and it's basically saying "thank you for NS1".
However the big issue with the prepurchase proceeding so early is that once you pay for something, you have invested into something and feel you're obliged to complain about the development. Which is true, but really expecting a indie gaming development company that is creating their first product with so many years behind it to NOT have to delay things is just a tad unrealistic.
So... the only thing I'm distrusting UWE for is that they jumped the gun too early, since it's clearly starting to show some discontent among the buyers. I'm also getting bummed that the editor still haven't been released; that they had to wait to the very end of this month to release it.
Everything else I just put under the label "it'll come eventually" and just bide my time. They missed one deadline for release at Fall 2009, but that was so unrealistic I wasn't even taking that seriously the first time around.
But yes, they should start speaking out more. There has to be some dialogue between the buyers at this point (we're 20% of your total budget you know at this point before alpha, whether you like it or not) and less usage of Twitter as a way to relay some of those pretty controversial pieces of information.
To which I already said, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108002&view=findpost&p=1738750" target="_blank">"...except showing game content isn't really a defense, you know, in real life. This isn't a battle. Releasing screenshots, etc., are promotions, aimed at hyping the game for potential customers."</a>
And sir, please don't tell me that I don't value Natural Selection. That's absolutely false. However, this is a different game, and I refuse to defend a game that the actual developers of the game won't defend for themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Developers tend to keep fans at arms length because the majority of us who engage in the community tend to give their opinions way more weight than they deserve. In addition, some think that the developers are somehow obligated to give them information.
They are not.
The final product will prove itself and any information released up to its release is just fuel to maintain interest in the game. It is not a way for the developers to defend themselves from angry community members. If they released all game information over the course of the month, a good number people in the forums would leave because they won't have the anticipation of new stuff and won't be able to speculate on possible content.
My faith in this game is made up of the information released so far and the developer's pedigree (read: Natural Selection 1). Being upset because there is not enough information out yet is not a really good reason. It's just a sign of being impatient.
Plus, what's the point of creating a loyal fan base if it does not spread game awareness and defend the property from attacks?
EDIT: As someone who developed mods and received community feedback on said mods, I have a biased perspective of thinking that only a minority of complaints or suggestions have anything tangible behind them.
But let's put things in perspective anyway. They've had <i>one</i> programmer (albeit a very talented one) up until very recently who was tasked with creating an engine from scratch, <i>one</i> concept artist to give the game a visual direction as well as a new twist on old material, and a single producer/designer/game director who was responsible for keeping the game (and company, I assume) afloat by seeking out investors. Even that doesn't properly describe the actual struggle they face on a day to day basis, something you have to experience yourself to understand. Having said that, it's true they ultimately have to deliver a product regardless of their situation, and releasing media and generating hype is just as important as the finished product. To that I say have a look at <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection2.com/</a> and tell me there isn't enough for a newcomer to sink their teeth into. Put simply, there <i>is</i> enough.
And if you are still feeling stubborn, go find media for the new Alien vs Predator video game, a title set to release in a little over a year by Rebellion who has an especially questionable track record. Let me give you a head start, here is AvP "official" website: <a href="http://www.sega.com/games/aliens-vs-predator/" target="_blank">http://www.sega.com/games/aliens-vs-predator/</a>. They have eight screenshots, two videos, and it doesn't look like it's been updated once.
But let's put things in perspective anyway. They've had <i>one</i> programmer (albeit a very talented one) up until very recently who was tasked with creating an engine from scratch, <i>one</i> concept artist to give the game a visual direction as well as a new twist on old material, and a single producer/designer/game director who was responsible for keeping the game (and company, I assume) afloat by seeking out investors. Even that doesn't properly describe the actual struggle they face on a day to day basis, something you have to experience yourself to understand. Having said that, it's true they ultimately have to deliver a product regardless of their situation, and releasing media and generating hype is just as important as the finished product. To that I say have a look at <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection2.com/</a> and tell me there isn't enough for a newcomer to sink their teeth into. Put simply, there <i>is</i> enough.
And if you are still feeling stubborn, go find media for the new Alien vs Predator video game, a title set to release in a little over a year by Rebellion who has an especially questionable track record. Let me give you a head start, here is AvP "official" website: <a href="http://www.sega.com/games/aliens-vs-predator/" target="_blank">http://www.sega.com/games/aliens-vs-predator/</a>. They have eight screenshots, two videos, and it doesn't look like it's been updated once.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the cut of your jib and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
allso games takes long time to be developed so anything from 3-6 years with a team of no less than 40 ppl sometimes even with a purchased game engine ( as in they didnt make their own one ), so considering how far 5 guys came with this game amazes me and it allso shows that they are hard at work even if they dont share a lot with us.
so what am sayin is YES i am confident enough in them it just gonna take some time for the game to be released.
They got the golden child with them AKA Charlie and he possesses the ancient powers of LUA... ofcouse they will delever!! :D
I went and had a look out of curiosity, and quite frankly I find UWE's 1 trailer and 2 screenshots to be much better than what was down there.
So find something better to occupy your time, you will receive an e-mail when the game is done.
<!--quoteo(post=1738710:date=Nov 22 2009, 03:14 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Nov 22 2009, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why have the NS forums become infused with a culture of fear of the worst and hope for the best, instead of a culture where we can talk about anything without fear? Why can't we talk about these things without longtime forum members getting angry and defensive? These are my questions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not fear or defensiveness, its people that have learned to be patient that don't want to listen to the endless complaints from those who haven't.