<!--quoteo(post=1765633:date=Apr 10 2010, 09:15 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 10 2010, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While the lighting is consistently good, all of it thus far seems to be the same colour.
Keep the softness and quality of the light placement, but change the colour for different areas, and maybe have a couple of harsh bright spots dotted around.
And maybe use something other than muddy colours, I hate beige, that's just personal preference though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, so far my map is only the marine start and a connecting hallway, so naturally the lighting have similar values but will change depending on future areas and locations.
<!--quoteo(post=1765639:date=Apr 10 2010, 09:32 PM:name=backfromheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (backfromheaven @ Apr 10 2010, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I feel so put out now after seeing some of Cyanide's work XP
I do agree with Chris about adding color variety, but I do defend the color beige since it adds a really nice mining/industrial feel to the area being lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't backfromheaven! Your best bet is to start with some geometry and start looking at how you can make it deeper. Add layers, even inaccessible ones, like pipes behind vents, etc. It creates a much more involving feel. Detail is nothing though if you dont have an interesting layout, so keep pluggin away!
<!--quoteo(post=1765642:date=Apr 11 2010, 03:36 AM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Apr 11 2010, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, so far my map is only the marine start and a connecting hallway, so naturally the lighting have similar values but will change depending on future areas and locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wondered if that might be the case, hard to tell how much of the map is done with only screenshots.
<!--quoteo(post=1765639:date=Apr 11 2010, 03:32 AM:name=backfromheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (backfromheaven @ Apr 11 2010, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I feel so put out now after seeing some of Cyanide's work XP
I do agree with Chris about adding color variety, but I do defend the color beige since it adds a really nice mining/industrial feel to the area being lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't deapair, plagiarise!
Looking at other people's work and seeing how they do things better is a very good way to improve, try to replicate the lighting in those screens because good lighting is absolutely crucial to making something look good. Bad lighting ruins anything, good lighting makes everything.
Once you have the knowledge of how to replicate something good, then you can try applying it in new ways, and change it to make it a little different, and eventually you make it your own.
Simple start of a combat map, very very few props (not sure im gonna add much to the lobby area, trying to keep a really nice 'openness' about it.)
Some vending machines off on the right (out of the screeny) <img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The quarter dome at the top isn't done yet, was getting bored aligning textures... ack! <img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This one only has a single light to show the room. <img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The first two screens looks awesome, Geno. Looks like some kind of industrial church :D The back wall in the second screen should get broken up a bit though, looks too repetetive as it is. And the windows seems to need some work too, frames etc, although you'r probably on that anyway.
Combat doesn't exist for NS2. I suggest you read the guidelines on how the game mode will need to be planned out so you don't waste time making a map that won't be usable :)
<!--quoteo(post=1765840:date=Apr 11 2010, 09:51 AM:name=Standard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Standard @ Apr 11 2010, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure combat mode will be available if the devs don't put it in themselves at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure it will be added in at some point by either the devs or the community. It's one of my favorite gameplay styles.
If it doesn't well.. i'll reuse it and find some way of making it into a real ns map. until then... well..
And yeah Align, minor details come after you test your map. No point putting all your wiring and really small little points in if you're only potentially going to delete that area and re-do it at some point ;p
Generic corridors made in the first week of release. <img src="http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1633/55191278.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Tried diagonal roofs in this one. <img src="http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9554/66728055.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Yeah... Testing some models and textures for an upcoming map... someone had to do it. <img src="http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8348/simp1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3967/simp2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Lighting needs changing, the simpsons has very uniform lighting most of the time, so you want next to no falloff on your lights.
Really you need a shader to change lighting from smooth gradients into harsh lines, but you might be able to get the same effect by playing with the falloff start and finish (I assume lights have those in NS2)
You might also try putting a powerful very <b>very</b> slightly yellow light some distance from the map at one side and above, then disable shadows on it, then make another similar light but set its intensity much lower and change the colour to very slightly blue, and put it opposite the sun on the other side of the level, to give you the ambient. That should give you a kind of basic flat shading with blue tinted 'shadows' which would simulate cartoon sunlight.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imo the lighting on the big door clashes with the rest of it. it took me a few seconds to understand why i didnt like the scene, because all the details look nice. i *think* its because of the lighting. im not saying im a master, but sometimes its easier for external parties to be more critical.
also, maybe space out the props on the floor. looks like alot of detail (if you tried to continue the same depth in pattern for the rest of the floor it would be overkill[maybe?]), so if you can manage to space it out and maybe make it a bit more lively... something i foudn myself doing was getting prop/face happy. a balance is needed (which is shown in 99% of the work you post). maybe you just dont have the proper inspiration. when i find myself mapping really dry its extremely discouraging, at the same time its a reminder. mapping is as much art as it is design and pseudo psychology. only so much theory can go in, you need healthy inspiration as well. someitmes its better just to ditch an area, watch some movies, read a book, look at other peoples designs and return.
im having trouble seeing the purpose of the entrance, but i dont have a whole lot of level context for it, it seems rather out of place. big loading door-> medium size stairway-> small grated walkway -> three way exit (from the looks of the floor prop, looks like a T junction)
it doesnt look bad, it just has too many styles duking it out. the bright fan doesnt help much either.
whats the purpose of having the grated walkway there, when the surrounding floor area is solid concrete?
again, im not hating, just trying to eloquate(its not a word... yet) why my brain is puzzled by the picture
also, ive been out of the scene for a while and its so cool to see this thread is still growing. im glad that the community is thriving and theres so many people who have gotten involved in one of the most important final aspects in game development. you guys rock, UWE rocks too for all their awesome effort in getting the community access.
<!--quoteo(post=1766285:date=Apr 12 2010, 06:44 PM:name=shaq_mobile)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shaq_mobile @ Apr 12 2010, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo the lighting on the big door clashes with the rest of it. it took me a few seconds to understand why i didnt like the scene, because all the details look nice. i *think* its because of the lighting. im not saying im a master, but sometimes its easier for external parties to be more critical.
also, maybe space out the props on the floor. looks like alot of detail (if you tried to continue the same depth in pattern for the rest of the floor it would be overkill[maybe?]), so if you can manage to space it out and maybe make it a bit more lively... something i foudn myself doing was getting prop/face happy. a balance is needed (which is shown in 99% of the work you post). maybe you just dont have the proper inspiration. when i find myself mapping really dry its extremely discouraging, at the same time its a reminder. mapping is as much art as it is design and pseudo psychology. only so much theory can go in, you need healthy inspiration as well. someitmes its better just to ditch an area, watch some movies, read a book, look at other peoples designs and return.
im having trouble seeing the purpose of the entrance, but i dont have a whole lot of level context for it, it seems rather out of place. big loading door-> medium size stairway-> small grated walkway -> three way exit (from the looks of the floor prop, looks like a T junction)
it doesnt look bad, it just has too many styles duking it out. the bright fan doesnt help much either.
whats the purpose of having the grated walkway there, when the surrounding floor area is solid concrete?
again, im not hating, just trying to eloquate(its not a word... yet) why my brain is puzzled by the picture<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry, I'm glad to get some feedback on it, that's what the thread is for (mostly)!
The door on the back has a stupid placement, I know that. I only put it there so it wasn't a plain wall. As for the floor on the middle part, that was literally the first thing I came up with when I needed to fill the area, the weird thing is I didn't give it much thought until you mentioned it. I'll probably change both in the future.
The lighting for the door part is to make the Tech Point stand out, which is what it's gonna do when it actually has a Command Station there.
Anyways, I didn't like "working" doors in NS1 because they were frustrating/annoying (I learned this the hard way when I playtested my first map), so all the doors you're seeing in my screenshots are only for looks.
Again, thanks for the feedback. I already uploaded the last video of this room with some in-game footage so you can see how the whole thing looks like (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTsNpnDq2-w" target="_blank">Link</a>. Go to the 6:30 mark to see the in-game part only).
Can you play with the specular intensity of your lights? It looks like that room has almost no specular highlights which is probably why it looks so flat.
The basic lighting idea is three lights, one to provide the main light, one to stop the shadows of the main being pitch black, and one to add rimlights.
The main light covers most of the object giving it the primary colour scheme and illumination, the second light stops the shadowed areas from being too dark because games don't have global illumination (yet) and normally there's a lot of ambient light bouncing around the place which prevents total darkness. This is also why doom 3 looks so dark, very simple lighting and not much ambient.
The third light is the rim light and its primary function is to stop it looking flat, it gives you the powerful highlights which add contrast to the scene and make things stand out, you can also do this with speculars but sometimes you need a separate light.
Obviously you can't light an entire map like that because you don't have the advantage of a lighting rig following the camera around, but if you get the three elements, strong main light, ambient to contrast colour and give shadows some definiition, and bright highlights in places, you get a striking image that looks nice.
This only uses two obvious lights and the phong does the rimlighting for you, so you don't need three but you do need the elements.
Yeah, I don't know much about lighting, but I think Chris does :)
There does seem to be something off with the lighting.
The rest of the room looks fantastic, but as soon as you turn around, it literally looks as if the part you have in the picture is completely inspirationless (in comparison). It may be prudent to make an alternative draft. What is the theme for this map, anyways? You could also try blending the bottom border of the right and left walls with the floor, though you would have to be careful, as it doesn't look like thats part of your architectural flow. You seem to favor mild elevation changes, angular faces and vertical breaks to balance. Since angular faces don't seem appropriate in this room and minor vertical breaks are already in use, you at least two plausible options. Major vertical breaks and minor elevation changes. You could also probably skate by with just busying up the image. This is supposed to be a tech point, correct? Doesn't look like something that would really be all that beneficial for a team to capture. It's a door with a console computer (I think?) to the left. I'm not gonna fight with a Fade over it.
On a side note, I know its not done but...
In the video at ~6:40 you show us some ceiling vents(?) that show us the sky(I think?). It' doesn't look quite natural. The rest of the ceiling is very 'deep'. There are lots of implications that there are at least several meters of ship/bunker/space lap/whatever between you and the environment. Not a huge deal, just seems kinda unbelievable, dissolves a little bit of the mystique.
I don't know anywhere near as much as there is to know, lighting is a discipline all by itself, but it borrows from others like photography and more or less any visual art.
Contrast is good, colour is good, themes are good, and highligting the subject is good.
So bright spots where you want people to look or on prominent/spectacular visuals, darkness framing them, and good amounts of light/dark and colour mixes, as well as consistency so you only have a few types of light that are used in different ways.
It's tricky but you get the hang of it after a while, I'm still a bit hit or miss though but I only work with source so it takes ages to actually see your lighting, with NS2 it should be much easier.
Yep, it looks weird because it needs a "skyline", but it's a bit of a mess to manage it right now considering how we've gotta fake the sky lighting, I don't know what I'll do with that, so for now I have the "window".
The whole middle part is a bit of a mess, I have to admit (I wanted to finish the videos!), I'll probably end up deleting it (walls/floor and maybe the ceiling, too) because it doesn't really fit with the "theme" of the room (different textures, too). It has happened me before where I posted/recorded the first thing I came up with (which tends to be terrible).
The light looks terrible in the middle part because (as with the whole thing), I did a half-assed job taking the two "ambience" lights and simply making the radius bigger, it's plain because there's few light sources and zero contrast/shadows. I was gonna pass on this room considering it done, but I'll get back to it when I have time.
Yeah, I mean the rest of it looks fantastic. I have a bad habit of moving on though, sometimes I will move on to whole new maps! My map folder is a pile of 10% finished maps. I get so enthralled with an idea for a short period of time, then I burn out. It's been going on like that since I first started mapping with star craft and half life. Sucks too, I'm decent at making rooms and detailing them, but it's so hard for me to make a cohesive map. Plus, alot of the ideas I have are usually on the fringe, so they would be hard to build without 3d modeling software and extensive experience. As soon as I realize that, I get really discouraged and give up. I also have a really tough time translating my ideas onto paper/monitor. One of the toughest parts of my creative process exists involves the real world interpretation of the imagery floating through my head. If I could plant my pencil on the graph paper and eventually illustrate the draft, digitally, I'm convinced I could be a good map maker. Then again, that's probably the same thing that holds most folks back, making it not so exceptional.
I practiced drawing depth and things to get my ideas onto paper. I have some really cool concepts and stuff. Having a picture makes things a lot easier for when you get around to building it, especially since you have something to complete, as opposed to just free-form building. Also, make sure to look in Props. There's lots of good stuff in there that saves time spent making things, like gigantic pipes.
<!--quoteo(post=1766305:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 12 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you play with the specular intensity of your lights? It looks like that room has almost no specular highlights which is probably why it looks so flat.
The basic lighting idea is three lights, one to provide the main light, one to stop the shadows of the main being pitch black, and one to add rimlights.
The main light covers most of the object giving it the primary colour scheme and illumination, the second light stops the shadowed areas from being too dark because games don't have global illumination (yet) and normally there's a lot of ambient light bouncing around the place which prevents total darkness. This is also why doom 3 looks so dark, very simple lighting and not much ambient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doom 3 has some pretty darn good lighting, now let's get on with it.
Have you booted Spark up and used it? There is no bounce lighting, currently it's being emulated by low intensity high radius omni's.
I don't think you can really apply how lighting your Source model in three different ways to lighting your level, to me it just seem like that analogy doesn't work.
If you can do spark then 3d modelling is quite similar, the tools are just worse. Texturing is more fiddly but works on similar principles, although actual modelling is quite similar and you can get a lot of good tools for that.
Making models of NS2 quality is fiddly, but making complex map-like geometry in a modelling package is fairly easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1766334:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:11 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 12 2010, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doom 3 has some pretty darn good lighting, now let's get on with it.
Have you booted Spark up and used it? There is no bounce lighting, currently it's being emulated by low intensity high radius omni's.
I don't think you can really apply how lighting your Source model in three different ways to lighting your level, to me it just seem like that analogy doesn't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said it doesn't have bounce lighting, which is why I said you need to use ambient lights because no game has global illumination, except source but you still need to use ambients there because source's GI model is fairly low-key.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with doom 3, I said it was simple, which it is, it's about as simple as dynamic lighting implementations get, although that doesn't prevent you from making it look good because you can set up the those lighting elements with simple lights. I also said it doesn't have a lot of ambient lights, which it often doesn't because everything is pitch black most of the time, and that's a stylistic choice.
No I haven't used spark because I don't have a preorder, which is why I asked if you could adjust the specular intensity of your lights.
You can apply the three point light idea to anything, you can apply it to things that don't even have any lights in them because the model exists to provide three important elements of good looking lighting, the main light, the ambeint light, and the highlights. I don't apply that to lighting source models because I just export them to the game, I apply it to source levels. I also covered the difference between using it on an object and using it on a level and it's minor, just make sure the scene as a whole has those three elements in it and if parts of it look dull, figure out which one is missing from that area and add it.
Some progress.. lighting isn't really focused on yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've applied alot of sweet details to the walls, don't forget the floor/ceiling though. Looks good! Also, on a bit more complex note, your room seems to be suffering from some multiple personality disorder. Not bad, but the more skeptical eye and subconcious would have a tough time believing it.
When I sketch maps, I like to write a name for the room down in the middle of it. Even in the future, most rooms need a purpose and a means to achieve it. In Aliens, they goto the cooling area for the reactor, and the whole scene involves oodles of pipes and catwalks. It's a good example of walking the fine line between giving the audience enough info to believe and giving the film enough mystique to keep it entertaining. In other words, I don't think it has to be 100% efficient (few if any structures are completely efficient). It just needs to be believable enough for the gamer to come to conclusion similar (or at least not conflicting) with the one that will end up on the HUD. Given enough resources, this isn't too hard to accomplish, but having the discipline to complete the task on EVERY room... that's professional work, particularly while balancing the map for healthy gameplay.
I also might add that, Natural Selection can get away with a heck of alot. You can probably fudge a room big time, as long as it looks good, and people would accept it rather passively. Sci Fi has alot more leeway than other fiction, because who knows what science has in store for us. We already know what the past/present holds.
<!--quoteo(post=1766334:date=Apr 12 2010, 03:11 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 12 2010, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doom 3 has some pretty darn good lighting, now let's get on with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1766373:date=Apr 12 2010, 04:33 PM:name=shaq_mobile)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shaq_mobile @ Apr 12 2010, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*scroll up to read*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing I can think of atm in relation to that would be removing the unneeded terminals on the second floor. It's mostly an entrance/exit by tram room where the marines use as a command point when they get there.
Comments
Keep the softness and quality of the light placement, but change the colour for different areas, and maybe have a couple of harsh bright spots dotted around.
And maybe use something other than muddy colours, I hate beige, that's just personal preference though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, so far my map is only the marine start and a connecting hallway, so naturally the lighting have similar values but will change depending on future areas and locations.
I do agree with Chris about adding color variety, but I do defend the color beige since it adds a really nice mining/industrial feel to the area being lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't backfromheaven! Your best bet is to start with some geometry and start looking at how you can make it deeper. Add layers, even inaccessible ones, like pipes behind vents, etc. It creates a much more involving feel. Detail is nothing though if you dont have an interesting layout, so keep pluggin away!
Wondered if that might be the case, hard to tell how much of the map is done with only screenshots.
<!--quoteo(post=1765639:date=Apr 11 2010, 03:32 AM:name=backfromheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (backfromheaven @ Apr 11 2010, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I feel so put out now after seeing some of Cyanide's work XP
I do agree with Chris about adding color variety, but I do defend the color beige since it adds a really nice mining/industrial feel to the area being lit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't deapair, plagiarise!
Looking at other people's work and seeing how they do things better is a very good way to improve, try to replicate the lighting in those screens because good lighting is absolutely crucial to making something look good. Bad lighting ruins anything, good lighting makes everything.
Once you have the knowledge of how to replicate something good, then you can try applying it in new ways, and change it to make it a little different, and eventually you make it your own.
Start with simple geometry, and keep going. After geometry, add props. Then add the lighting :]
If it looks good to you, don't stop!
Some vending machines off on the right (out of the screeny)
<img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The quarter dome at the top isn't done yet, was getting bored aligning textures... ack!
<img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This one only has a single light to show the room.
<img src="http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj155/stackocakes/ns2_subway3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The third screen looks a little too standard imo
Only thing I can't figure out is how to use the skybox.. how did you? 0_o
lol
Combat doesn't exist for NS2. I suggest you read the guidelines on how the game mode will need to be planned out so you don't waste time making a map that won't be usable :)
I'm sure it will be added in at some point by either the devs or the community. It's one of my favorite gameplay styles.
If it doesn't well.. i'll reuse it and find some way of making it into a real ns map. until then... well..
I think it's done.
And yeah Align, minor details come after you test your map. No point putting all your wiring and really small little points in if you're only potentially going to delete that area and re-do it at some point ;p
<img src="http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1633/55191278.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Tried diagonal roofs in this one.
<img src="http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9554/66728055.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Yeah... Testing some models and textures for an upcoming map... someone had to do it.
<img src="http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8348/simp1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3967/simp2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Really you need a shader to change lighting from smooth gradients into harsh lines, but you might be able to get the same effect by playing with the falloff start and finish (I assume lights have those in NS2)
You might also try putting a powerful very <b>very</b> slightly yellow light some distance from the map at one side and above, then disable shadows on it, then make another similar light but set its intensity much lower and change the colour to very slightly blue, and put it opposite the sun on the other side of the level, to give you the ambient. That should give you a kind of basic flat shading with blue tinted 'shadows' which would simulate cartoon sunlight.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imo the lighting on the big door clashes with the rest of it. it took me a few seconds to understand why i didnt like the scene, because all the details look nice. i *think* its because of the lighting. im not saying im a master, but sometimes its easier for external parties to be more critical.
also, maybe space out the props on the floor. looks like alot of detail (if you tried to continue the same depth in pattern for the rest of the floor it would be overkill[maybe?]), so if you can manage to space it out and maybe make it a bit more lively...
something i foudn myself doing was getting prop/face happy. a balance is needed (which is shown in 99% of the work you post). maybe you just dont have the proper inspiration. when i find myself mapping really dry its extremely discouraging, at the same time its a reminder. mapping is as much art as it is design and pseudo psychology. only so much theory can go in, you need healthy inspiration as well. someitmes its better just to ditch an area, watch some movies, read a book, look at other peoples designs and return.
im having trouble seeing the purpose of the entrance, but i dont have a whole lot of level context for it, it seems rather out of place. big loading door-> medium size stairway-> small grated walkway -> three way exit (from the looks of the floor prop, looks like a T junction)
it doesnt look bad, it just has too many styles duking it out. the bright fan doesnt help much either.
whats the purpose of having the grated walkway there, when the surrounding floor area is solid concrete?
again, im not hating, just trying to eloquate(its not a word... yet) why my brain is puzzled by the picture
also, ive been out of the scene for a while and its so cool to see this thread is still growing. im glad that the community is thriving and theres so many people who have gotten involved in one of the most important final aspects in game development. you guys rock, UWE rocks too for all their awesome effort in getting the community access.
also, maybe space out the props on the floor. looks like alot of detail (if you tried to continue the same depth in pattern for the rest of the floor it would be overkill[maybe?]), so if you can manage to space it out and maybe make it a bit more lively...
something i foudn myself doing was getting prop/face happy. a balance is needed (which is shown in 99% of the work you post). maybe you just dont have the proper inspiration. when i find myself mapping really dry its extremely discouraging, at the same time its a reminder. mapping is as much art as it is design and pseudo psychology. only so much theory can go in, you need healthy inspiration as well. someitmes its better just to ditch an area, watch some movies, read a book, look at other peoples designs and return.
im having trouble seeing the purpose of the entrance, but i dont have a whole lot of level context for it, it seems rather out of place. big loading door-> medium size stairway-> small grated walkway -> three way exit (from the looks of the floor prop, looks like a T junction)
it doesnt look bad, it just has too many styles duking it out. the bright fan doesnt help much either.
whats the purpose of having the grated walkway there, when the surrounding floor area is solid concrete?
again, im not hating, just trying to eloquate(its not a word... yet) why my brain is puzzled by the picture<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry, I'm glad to get some feedback on it, that's what the thread is for (mostly)!
The door on the back has a stupid placement, I know that. I only put it there so it wasn't a plain wall. As for the floor on the middle part, that was literally the first thing I came up with when I needed to fill the area, the weird thing is I didn't give it much thought until you mentioned it. I'll probably change both in the future.
The lighting for the door part is to make the Tech Point stand out, which is what it's gonna do when it actually has a Command Station there.
Anyways, I didn't like "working" doors in NS1 because they were frustrating/annoying (I learned this the hard way when I playtested my first map), so all the doors you're seeing in my screenshots are only for looks.
Again, thanks for the feedback. I already uploaded the last video of this room with some in-game footage so you can see how the whole thing looks like (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTsNpnDq2-w" target="_blank">Link</a>. Go to the 6:30 mark to see the in-game part only).
The basic lighting idea is three lights, one to provide the main light, one to stop the shadows of the main being pitch black, and one to add rimlights.
The main light covers most of the object giving it the primary colour scheme and illumination, the second light stops the shadowed areas from being too dark because games don't have global illumination (yet) and normally there's a lot of ambient light bouncing around the place which prevents total darkness. This is also why doom 3 looks so dark, very simple lighting and not much ambient.
The third light is the rim light and its primary function is to stop it looking flat, it gives you the powerful highlights which add contrast to the scene and make things stand out, you can also do this with speculars but sometimes you need a separate light.
Obviously you can't light an entire map like that because you don't have the advantage of a lighting rig following the camera around, but if you get the three elements, strong main light, ambient to contrast colour and give shadows some definiition, and bright highlights in places, you get a striking image that looks nice.
This only uses two obvious lights and the phong does the rimlighting for you, so you don't need three but you do need the elements.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/images/9/90/Shadetree.jpg" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/image...0/Shadetree.jpg</a>
There does seem to be something off with the lighting.
The rest of the room looks fantastic, but as soon as you turn around, it literally looks as if the part you have in the picture is completely inspirationless (in comparison). It may be prudent to make an alternative draft. What is the theme for this map, anyways? You could also try blending the bottom border of the right and left walls with the floor, though you would have to be careful, as it doesn't look like thats part of your architectural flow. You seem to favor mild elevation changes, angular faces and vertical breaks to balance. Since angular faces don't seem appropriate in this room and minor vertical breaks are already in use, you at least two plausible options. Major vertical breaks and minor elevation changes. You could also probably skate by with just busying up the image. This is supposed to be a tech point, correct? Doesn't look like something that would really be all that beneficial for a team to capture. It's a door with a console computer (I think?) to the left. I'm not gonna fight with a Fade over it.
On a side note, I know its not done but...
In the video at ~6:40 you show us some ceiling vents(?) that show us the sky(I think?). It' doesn't look quite natural. The rest of the ceiling is very 'deep'. There are lots of implications that there are at least several meters of ship/bunker/space lap/whatever between you and the environment. Not a huge deal, just seems kinda unbelievable, dissolves a little bit of the mystique.
Contrast is good, colour is good, themes are good, and highligting the subject is good.
So bright spots where you want people to look or on prominent/spectacular visuals, darkness framing them, and good amounts of light/dark and colour mixes, as well as consistency so you only have a few types of light that are used in different ways.
It's tricky but you get the hang of it after a while, I'm still a bit hit or miss though but I only work with source so it takes ages to actually see your lighting, with NS2 it should be much easier.
The whole middle part is a bit of a mess, I have to admit (I wanted to finish the videos!), I'll probably end up deleting it (walls/floor and maybe the ceiling, too) because it doesn't really fit with the "theme" of the room (different textures, too). It has happened me before where I posted/recorded the first thing I came up with (which tends to be terrible).
The light looks terrible in the middle part because (as with the whole thing), I did a half-assed job taking the two "ambience" lights and simply making the radius bigger, it's plain because there's few light sources and zero contrast/shadows. I was gonna pass on this room considering it done, but I'll get back to it when I have time.
PS: Man, I miss NS1 mapping!
I practiced drawing depth and things to get my ideas onto paper. I have some really cool concepts and stuff. Having a picture makes things a lot easier for when you get around to building it, especially since you have something to complete, as opposed to just free-form building. Also, make sure to look in Props. There's lots of good stuff in there that saves time spent making things, like gigantic pipes.
The basic lighting idea is three lights, one to provide the main light, one to stop the shadows of the main being pitch black, and one to add rimlights.
The main light covers most of the object giving it the primary colour scheme and illumination, the second light stops the shadowed areas from being too dark because games don't have global illumination (yet) and normally there's a lot of ambient light bouncing around the place which prevents total darkness. This is also why doom 3 looks so dark, very simple lighting and not much ambient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doom 3 has some pretty darn good lighting, now let's get on with it.
Have you booted Spark up and used it? There is no bounce lighting, currently it's being emulated by low intensity high radius omni's.
I don't think you can really apply how lighting your Source model in three different ways to lighting your level, to me it just seem like that analogy doesn't work.
Making models of NS2 quality is fiddly, but making complex map-like geometry in a modelling package is fairly easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1766334:date=Apr 12 2010, 08:11 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 12 2010, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doom 3 has some pretty darn good lighting, now let's get on with it.
Have you booted Spark up and used it? There is no bounce lighting, currently it's being emulated by low intensity high radius omni's.
I don't think you can really apply how lighting your Source model in three different ways to lighting your level, to me it just seem like that analogy doesn't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said it doesn't have bounce lighting, which is why I said you need to use ambient lights because no game has global illumination, except source but you still need to use ambients there because source's GI model is fairly low-key.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with doom 3, I said it was simple, which it is, it's about as simple as dynamic lighting implementations get, although that doesn't prevent you from making it look good because you can set up the those lighting elements with simple lights. I also said it doesn't have a lot of ambient lights, which it often doesn't because everything is pitch black most of the time, and that's a stylistic choice.
No I haven't used spark because I don't have a preorder, which is why I asked if you could adjust the specular intensity of your lights.
You can apply the three point light idea to anything, you can apply it to things that don't even have any lights in them because the model exists to provide three important elements of good looking lighting, the main light, the ambeint light, and the highlights. I don't apply that to lighting source models because I just export them to the game, I apply it to source levels. I also covered the difference between using it on an object and using it on a level and it's minor, just make sure the scene as a whole has those three elements in it and if parts of it look dull, figure out which one is missing from that area and add it.
<img src="http://i41.tinypic.com/6zr954.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some progress.. lighting isn't really focused on yet.
<img src="http://i41.tinypic.com/6zr954.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some progress.. lighting isn't really focused on yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've applied alot of sweet details to the walls, don't forget the floor/ceiling though. Looks good! Also, on a bit more complex note, your room seems to be suffering from some multiple personality disorder. Not bad, but the more skeptical eye and subconcious would have a tough time believing it.
When I sketch maps, I like to write a name for the room down in the middle of it. Even in the future, most rooms need a purpose and a means to achieve it. In Aliens, they goto the cooling area for the reactor, and the whole scene involves oodles of pipes and catwalks. It's a good example of walking the fine line between giving the audience enough info to believe and giving the film enough mystique to keep it entertaining. In other words, I don't think it has to be 100% efficient (few if any structures are completely efficient). It just needs to be believable enough for the gamer to come to conclusion similar (or at least not conflicting) with the one that will end up on the HUD. Given enough resources, this isn't too hard to accomplish, but having the discipline to complete the task on EVERY room... that's professional work, particularly while balancing the map for healthy gameplay.
I also might add that, Natural Selection can get away with a heck of alot. You can probably fudge a room big time, as long as it looks good, and people would accept it rather passively. Sci Fi has alot more leeway than other fiction, because who knows what science has in store for us. We already know what the past/present holds.
0_o
The only thing I can think of atm in relation to that would be removing the unneeded terminals on the second floor. It's mostly an entrance/exit by tram room where the marines use as a command point when they get there.