Do we really need the scoreboard?
crae
Join Date: 2005-01-30 Member: 39035Members
Join Date: 2005-01-30 Member: 39035Members
I would like to ask the NS2 developers to remove the scoreboard from the game. IMO, the scoreboards presence only serves to inflate ego's. I think the game would be much better experience if it were removed. If not a permanent removal, I ask that the developers at least try out a build where it is disabled. Here's what I think should replace it:
Upon joining a team, pressing tab will give you the following table:
|----------- Squad 1 ----------|----------- Squad 2 ------------|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------- Squad 3 ----------|----------- Squad 4 ------------|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------- Unassigned --------------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
Only the player name and equipment or lifeform/res is displayed. The player can choose to assign/remove themselves to/from squads. This displays a different colored squad number on other squad members models and the squad colors are also shown on the map.
Also, when in the ready room, pressing tab only displays a list of players in the RR, and kills are not displayed to give anything away. This should go some way to reducing team stacking, although team switching will still occur, it's obvious who it is when that happens.
Upon joining a team, pressing tab will give you the following table:
|----------- Squad 1 ----------|----------- Squad 2 ------------|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------- Squad 3 ----------|----------- Squad 4 ------------|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|-- Player name -- equipment --|-- Player name -- equipment ----|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------- Unassigned --------------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------- Player name -- equipment ---------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
Only the player name and equipment or lifeform/res is displayed. The player can choose to assign/remove themselves to/from squads. This displays a different colored squad number on other squad members models and the squad colors are also shown on the map.
Also, when in the ready room, pressing tab only displays a list of players in the RR, and kills are not displayed to give anything away. This should go some way to reducing team stacking, although team switching will still occur, it's obvious who it is when that happens.
Comments
Frag counts are an important part of information. The gain/loss ratio has been debated forever and it's up to devs to decide which suits the game.
So it's not all about the Killing, but to get points where you can scale your ego.
I like your concept.
Nothing that cannot be gained by paying attention. I'm just expressing my very strong opinion that the scoreboard harms the game rather than helps.
Nothing that cannot be gained by paying attention. I'm just expressing my very strong opinion that the scoreboard harms the game rather than helps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck counting individual K:Ds and combining them into a big picture during the round. I doubt I could do it on a 6v6 with people I know, not to speak of having a clue on a public game with plenty of unfamiliar nicknames and player enterings and exiting the game all the time.
Denying the kill counts also denies the commanders valuable feedback: Was my strategy bad or did the opponent outskill my team? At least commanders should have it visible in my opinion, the rest is more debatable depending on features like RFK and commander's role. I'd rather still have the ability to tell the game's situation without being the commander though. UWEs attempt to try to separate the commander and the field team supports that direction.
So it's not all about the Killing, but to get points where you can scale your ego.
I like your concept.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Empires, you get points for killing/destroying things, for doing class-specific things (such as building if you're an engineer, defusing mines as a grenadier, etc.), and for working in squads. The points actually mean something (you get certain "skills", ie stamina increase, accuracy, etc. every 10 points up to 40) and it's easy for the Commander to give the harder tasks to the better players. If you just list the players and try to remember how well every single person is doing that particular game (I, for example, can be the team leader one game and completely useless the next) it becomes a cluster F pretty quickly.
Just like in TF2 where half of the assists lately arent counted? No thanks.
K:D doesnt help, too. The single most worthless stat ever to be implemented to a game.
If someone dies a lot it can be seen in the status messages, and doesn't say jack ###### about that player's performance.
Say, he's scouting enemy territory to help the comm plan his tactics? Oooh....
What about the supporter or the poor sod who's kills are stolen everytime he has a strong enemy down to painfull health levels? Heh...
You don't need to take it to that far. Like most NS players, I am a veteran player of 5+ years. I know who the good players are (even when they keep changing their name) using observation. At the start of a game, I monitor the map and the kill announcements to get an idea of where the good players are on the map. For example, if AssPirate (one of the top 10 marines in the game today) is scoring kills over towards NS_Eclipse:T-Junction, I attack Station Access and Triad RT nodes. I try not to take elite players head on, but go around them and undermine the res flow, thus giving my team an advantage later in the game. Think of it as another tactical skill that players can learn. K/D ratio's are not useful to me, I only need to know the names of the good shooters and where they are on the map throughout the game.
>Denying the kill counts also denies the commanders valuable feedback: Was my strategy bad or did the opponent outskill my team?
I have commanded many hundreds if not thousands of games. I have never needed to rely on the scoreboard to tell what happened in the game. If the team gets wiped out during a hive attack, it is blatantly obvious - because I am right there monitoring the action from above. I know where the good players are on the map at all times, without having to check the K/D ratio, because that is the job of the commander. My point is, any info from the scoreboard can be gained with a little bit of attention to the game.
You seem to not like the idea and are trying to throw up any argument to justify your position. As I have repeated a few times now, any info the scoreboard shows can be replicated using a little bit of imagination, skill and most importantly observation. If you don't like the idea, then say: 'I like the scoreboard and want it kept in'. That's fine, but the arguments you have presented trying to justify it's presence are, in my opinion, not valid. Please stop throwing up silly arguments like 'I can't keep track of K/D ratio's for the whole team without the scoreboard'. Just because you don't think something is possible, does not mean others have not come up with a way to do it anyway.
But then again, I have zero use for stats either too.
You don't need to take it to that far. Like most NS players, I am a veteran player of 5+ years. I know who the good players are (even when they keep changing their name) using observation. At the start of a game, I monitor the map and the kill announcements to get an idea of where the good players are on the map. For example, if AssPirate (one of the top 10 marines in the game today) is scoring kills over towards NS_Eclipse:T-Junction, I attack Station Access and Triad RT nodes. I try not to take elite players head on, but go around them and undermine the res flow, thus giving my team an advantage later in the game. Think of it as another tactical skill that players can learn. K/D ratio's are not useful to me, I only need to know the names of the good shooters and where they are on the map throughout the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I'm a veteran from 5 years or so too if it matters.
Let's say I see one alien player scoring 6 frags, the rest staying at 1 or 2. Woo, they've got fast hive or fade, but not both. It's pretty cool when you can actually predict the timings and such. Without the scoreboard I'd have to go through every kill message and keep track of the names, which isn't that inuitive option if you ask me.
In a similar way I can get somewhat good picture whether my completely random 16 marine team has a few marines going 15-7 and the rest are dead meat or whether it's more evenly spread out. I use the information to determine whether I want to siege or push or stall till second hive for example. I doubt that many people get a proper information of that only by looking at kill messages and randomly seeing the fights while zipping around the map medding.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Denying the kill counts also denies the commanders valuable feedback: Was my strategy bad or did the opponent outskill my team?
I have commanded many hundreds if not thousands of games. I have never needed to rely on the scoreboard to tell what happened in the game. If the team gets wiped out during a hive attack, it is blatantly obvious - because I am right there monitoring the action from above. I know where the good players are on the map at all times, without having to check the K/D ratio, because that is the job of the commander. My point is, any info from the scoreboard can be gained with a little bit of attention to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know where my good players are and I definitely know the turning points of the game, no problem with that. But I also want to know whether that random guy went 7-5 or 4-7 as I can't see every frag and every death. At that point I want to have general clue whether the team is at 70-60 or 60-70, which is a world of difference.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to not like the idea and are trying to throw up any argument to justify your position. As I have repeated a few times now, any info the scoreboard shows can be replicated using a little bit of imagination, skill and most importantly observation. If you don't like the idea, then say: 'I like the scoreboard and want it kept in'. That's fine, but the arguments you have presented trying to justify it's presence are, in my opinion, not valid. Please stop throwing up silly arguments like 'I can't keep track of K/D ratio's for the whole team without the scoreboard'. Just because you don't think something is possible, does not mean others have not come up with a way to do it anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me put it this way: I use scoreboard to gain extra bits information you don't seem to be using. I use the information to develop my understanding of the game. I enjoy developing my game understanding. Thus I enjoy having the scoreboard to help me understand the game. Is that a good argumentation?
Also, your claim was that scoreboard has no use. I provided the reasons. I understand it's not necessary to see everything and I adapt to the situation if I don't have everything avaible, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd like to have as much information as possible at my disposal, scoreboard being one the information sources.
And thus, a great argument as to why you should NOT have a scoreboard.
Metagaming is not a feature.
1) The devs already tried a build where it was disabled in NS1. It was added back in.
2) K/D is a very important statistic to have in the eyes of a commander dropping expensive gear/weapons
3) Egotistical players will not stop being egotistical / elitist just because they can't see their K/D. Take me for example, I love pissing people off in video games. I will spawn camp the ###### out of you every possible chance I get and I'm not going to stop this behavior just because the scoreboard goes away. Your tears are my fuel.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And thus, a great argument as to why you should NOT have a scoreboard.
Metagaming is not a feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a valid point, however, it's easily fixed by not allowing the other team to see your scoreboard. If the scoreboard contains information like current weapon and technology equipped I'd assume this feature is already planned.
Only because of retards acting up.
That build was the best in the history of NS.
Yes, that is true. However, by the time I feel I'm ready to command, (min 15-20 minutes of playing on the server to get a sense of the players) I know who the good players are, who is average, and who is new. I don't always drop to good players. I drop anything that is a reasonable request at that point in the game. The reason I do this is to give the player experience with equipment and encourage them to expand their skills. If lots of people are waiting in base for equipment, I give to the best player first. Good players are also smart enough to spot a poor/average player with a gun and shadow them until they die.
So yes, while you may use the scoreboard for this purpose, I don't and I would prefer it if the com couldn't see these stats.
In my opinion, the scoreboard facilitates and encourages egotistical behavior to a small degree. If it were removed, the intensity of this behavior may diminish slightly. But yes, you are correct that the ignorance that underlies the behavior will remain.
>I love pissing people off in video games.
>Your tears are my fuel.
It is everybody's right to act however they wish. If people feel it's OK to take domination of others to this degree, then they also deserve to suffer the negative consequences of their actions until they learn better. What happens to your fuel when you can't get any tears? Where did the tears really come from?
This thread? You were raged enough to make something like this and I have a feeling that after a solid minute of spawn camping you'd be pretty raged again.
Removing K/D does nothing, which you agreed to by saying "Yes, that is true." and "but yes, you are correct," so I won't go into a side topic about why people get raged in video games.
It may be a small one, but it's more than what stops for having it.
If their's a marine that's kicking ass, and by viewing his massive kill count inspires him to continue to kick ass, then that's good for the team in general :P
I say we keep the commander kill count associated with turret kills lol.
Perhaps I'm not enraged. Perhaps I'm happy. Perhaps I'm sad. Perhaps I have a gorgeous brunette going down on me as I type. You don't know. You know nothing about me. You have assumed, and you have assumed wrong. What you have assumed it quite telling of how you yourself would react, and a perfect example of the negative consequences I referred to earlier. After a solid minute of spawn camping, YOU rage. Then you think that raging is 'normal' behavior and that everyone else does it too. They don't. It's only you.
I am in control of my emotions and do not let anger/hate/frustration get the better of me. I stop playing and get out of my chair for a second if anything in the games makes me angry or frustrated. I only play when I feel confident, relaxed and happy. You should try it. The game becomes fun and enjoyable again. I don't need to tell you how it feels when you lose yourself in a spiral of negativity, because apparently you are an expert in that department.
>Removing K/D does nothing
The scoreboard is a contributing factor. Small yes, but removing it is going in the right direction.
Please don't quote out of context. Here are the context's for your reference:
You: K/D is a very important statistic to have in the eyes of a commander dropping expensive gear/weapons..
Me: ..Yes, that is true, however..
You: Egotistical players will not stop being egotistical / elitist
ME: ..But yes, you are correct that the ignorance that underlies the behavior will remain..
I have never said that removing the scoreboard does nothing. Quite the opposite. This has been a consistent point of my arguments from the start of the thread. If you are going to distort and twist your mind over things as simple as this, then honestly, I don't see that you can add anything useful to the discussion.
Is there anything left to discuss? You've admitted that removing the K/D from the scoreboard is a small step that won't even stop the behavior you're attempting to stop. Combine this with the real advantages having a K/D on the scoreboard provides and it seems the choice is obvious.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you have assumed it quite telling of how you yourself would react, and a perfect example of the negative consequences I referred to earlier. After a solid minute of spawn camping, YOU rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*pulls the "you don't know me card" like you did earlier*
Isn't that fun? By the way, ragequitting ("I stop playing and get out of my chair") is still a form of raging. Your tears are my fuel.
Metagaming is not a feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...huh?
While I am indifferent to the idea of the scoreboard, I find saying that "metagaming is not a feature" of a online game is silly. For example, people are always going to be looking at the performance of others as a way to try to predict the future of the match and react to it. If I join my regular server and see that my team has players that I know tend to do certain things (go early fade), I can prepare for that. If you want to eliminate metagaming as a feature, we should no longer have screen names in online games. Another example would be that we should somehow censor all build orders as well to ensure there is no cross-contamination of ideas.
It is impossible to completely isolate the player and game from the rest of the world that could affect the relationship between the two in a online game. If I am playing a singleplayer game, I could simply not go to forums, read guides and the like; essentially play the game entirely on my own.
On-Topic: In a game with a strategy component that has real-life players be the units, important to have a quantify the skill of each individual. The method we used before is a kill to death ratio, which is not perfect. If we remove 'resources for kill', it can be possible to switch to a rating system. For example, a player can have a combat score from 0 to 100 that indicates how accurate they are, the kills they made in relation to other players, the amount of damage taken and so on. Then you can have a teamwork rating that indicates how often they are in a group or accomplishing objectives. A teamwork rating would be pointless for players, but potentially useful for a commander; so that rating could be hidden from normal players. The idea is to quantify the important skills of each player in a easy-to-read format, the two examples are not indicative of the entire system.
No but metagaming should be eliminated to the extent that it's plausible to do so. Does removing enemy K/D hurt anything? Its sole purpose is to promote metagaming, so drop it. Does dropping names hurt things? Yes, it does. It's not feasible to drop them. I wouldn't be opposed to the kill indicator in the corner going away either, but there's subtle reasons why that would harm gameplay as well.
As for build orders, there's a reason why I find RT'S' games to be ridiculous and absurd. There's no strategy when you've calculated the game down to raw numbers to the extent an automaton could play for you. If you're talking about build orders in NS, I wasn't actually aware there were build orders...
I don't find the mechanical execution of a build order anything that interesting, but executing one while adapting to the situation, figuring out the opponent's plan and messing it up is mind blowing at best.
As for the metagaming...
I'm not sure where to draw the line. Wikipedia descibes metagaming in computer games as using something unintentional feature or such to gain advantage. Viewing a scoreboard to interpret the game isn't using any inside knowledge or information that can't be acquired by completely intentional means, so it's not necessarily even considered metagaming.
Right now the scoreboard very much avaible to everyone. If the devs decide that you shouldn't count RFK from it, they can disable the opponent K:D chart or something. Until then I guess I'll consider it fine and use it as an intentional feature.
I think metagame in general is a little tricky concept. Metagame in terms of understanding the game concept and using your knowledge to beat the opponent is the core idea of almost every player vs player game and I can't see NS functioning without it. Then again peeking at your opponent's screen on LAN is metagaming too and clearly crosses the line of acceptable behaviour. I'd try to be a little more specific rather than just blurting out opinions like "Metagaming is bad."
... because that's not metagaming? You have the definition right there. Unintentional means to get an advantage. Gleaning the alien status from the scoreboard is not an intentional feature of its implementation.
Says who? I doubt you've got any inside dev knowledge on how they planned it. In addition, they could've patched the oppositing team stats out if it was considered unintentional. I've got no clue on how they planned it, so I use it based on what it can do.
As for the metagaming in general, the term somewhat includes any kind of information the player doesn't acquire during the very specific game. For example wikipedia mentions designing a Warhammer army based on your knowledge of possible opponent armies as metagaming. The hell I know how various people define it, so being a little more descriptive doesn't hurt.
I don't think removing K:D information will dramatically change how people play a game. Plus like some others have said it IS a useful way of knowing who the commander should give the expensive weapons/equipment out to when your resources are scarce.
In a game like NS the scoreboard is too important not to include. In my opinion.
As for the metagaming in general, the term somewhat includes any kind of information the player doesn't acquire during the very specific game. For example wikipedia mentions designing a Warhammer army based on your knowledge of possible opponent armies as metagaming. The hell I know how various people define it, so being a little more descriptive doesn't hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, well I think there's shades of gray on this. Clearly you can't absolve all knowledge from a player in regards to the game, sometimes you just have to play along. For example, metagaming in P&P RPGs is a big problem, ie: you know that ogre can only have so many hit dice of health. I'm of the opinion that it should be eliminated as much as feasibly possible, that the entire purpose of a game is to provide as immersive an experience as it can. But hey, that's why I play ArmA2 with just about every assisting option off.
However, I'll also add that even in fragalicious games like COD4 people generally aren't concerned with their score at any specific time in the match. The only score indicators immediately visible is the team composite and an indicator if you're the top scorer (though this changes if you're playing a non-team mode). Clearly even COD4 saw the value of a team score over an individual score, and that was made by a pack of idiots. Anyway point is, the kill/death is mostly prominent at the END of the round.
Ultimately though, I really don't care if k/d is on the scoreboard or not. However it should ONLY be for your team if there is any kind of benefit from getting lots of kills at all. If kills are completely disassociated from equipment or upgrades, then there's not much of an issue. The biggest issue I have with K/D is just how pointless an indicator it is in a game like NS.