I say th0r is a high skilled troll and we've all fallen for him, we keep on talking about the amount of cheaters there are most of the time.
I haven't encountered any cheaters in NS yet, I'm actually fine when I get owned, but there is always a time when I can ambush those marines back and wipe out their squad which gives me the proof that they didn't cheat ( I know tgaud's point here would be, if got exists it must be a cheater in NS1 and knew that there was no point in saving the squad so it just died... but I'm not that paranoid yet, maybe that's why I suck at NS1 :P )
I've encountered cheaters in CS though, but most of them are easy to spot and I quit the game lots of years ago, it had a tendancy to attract flamers and kids to it ... which was just annoying.
I think that the VAC thing is okay, it could be done SO MUCH worse, there are games around where the developers didn't even think of the problems cheats would have ... and I guess even if UWE hasn't got that much time and money to spend on that problem, they would at least do better than most of the developers out there.
So I guess this thread should be about:
1) Determin if NS1 failed against cheaters 2) Proof point 1) 3) What can be done to improve this / What can be learned from these mistakes 4) Concrete examples for the anticheats
But right now, or at least the pages 1 to 3 just circeled around if there are cheaters or only skilled players.
So back to topic:
My point on 1) would be that NS1 had Motion Tracking and Parasites and Smell of Fear and Sensory chambers and all that neat stuff that maybe lowered the urge of the common frustrated player to even think of cheating, because when I think of cheats I think of wallhacks and aimbots.
---
1mannARMEE
EDIT: Just read through page 4 and it seems it already got a bit more on topic, so sorry for the rant like style on my post.... I wonder how that happened, are there two certain people no longer arguing :P
<!--quoteo(post=1745278:date=Dec 31 2009, 10:55 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 31 2009, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't cheats for NS2 be relatively rare compared to NS1 / otherwise, because it's on its own engine and can't just be built off the same foundation as all the CS cheats were?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, in theory you can use any aimbot system on any game. This is because you basicly need only a few things, the memory address where the mouseposition is located, and the players. The rest of the aimbot system is quite the same in other games, calculate the distance between your current crosshair position, and the enemy, and changing the x and y.
I actually won't be surprised if cheats were be finished before the game actually came out.
<!--quoteo(post=1745226:date=Dec 31 2009, 09:37 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 31 2009, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone who goes 23/0 in 7 minutes as marine (15 minutes is the duration of an average game, a really safe playing player on a winning marine team will probably get a score of 19 kills in a game with a bit of luck, I've done ratios like that, and I'm not even very good) but has a terrible bunnyhop, or no tactical awareness (looking at the right corners), is pretty obvious to qualify as a hacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a stupid way to spot hackers...
What does NS have in common with other FPS games? Shooting and aiming... What doesn't have it in common with other FPS games? Alien gameplay...
What i'm trying to say here? Somebody who is good at FPS games can usually translate his aiming skills from one game to another game. If he's good at aiming he will do fine in most FPS games, that doesn't mean that he suddenly automaticly is also good as an alien also as he doesn't have any experience with that kind of gameplay.
Just a small example: I have friend who used to play CS on a competive level, i'm not talking about "some random league competive level" i'm talking about "beeing on a team with real sponsors and LAN tournaments" competive level.
Back than when he still had been active i introduced him to NS and i basicly had a 1 man army as a commander. That guy would rape everything as marine but he refused to play alien because his aiming skills would be no good for playing alien so he ended up sucking playing as alien.
And this whole "fear of cheaters" thing is blown out of proportions... i've been called a hacker often enough in different games to realize that people just see ghosts or can't stand losing most of the time, i got banned serveral times by admins because in their opinion my aim is "jerky". So i have a pretty simple concept regarding cheaters: If he doesn't cheat in a really obvious way (talking about people running around with auto-aim/auto shoot that basicly kill 5 enemies in 1 second and snaps around like crazy) i will just consider him a good player.
Because a smart cheater will just make it look like he is an good player, the moment he starts going past this boundary he is easy to spot as an cheater and easy to ban by an admin. So cheaters have to stay in certain limits and as long as they stay in those limits you can just pretent that he's just a good player.
All UW's can do is lock out all client side cvars from the command console and keep them hardcoded and/or verified by the server( allowing config changes only through UI options). If they allow people to delve into the depths of the the engine parameters again we will see the same things happen as they did in NS1/any HL mod.
i only skimmed through this thread but i saw some points that i agree with... one being that they should not allow scripts.
if this game is meant to appeal to both the hardcore and casual gamer then scripts are not going to help. regardless of what anyone says i see them as a form of cheating. yes, they are available to everyone but they arnt included in the vanilla game therefor they arnt creating a leveled playing field.
i was fully aware of scripts in ns1 but refused to use them. im pretty sure the pistol was never meant to be used as an uzi even though i saw countless people using it like one. bunnyhoping is all well and good if you are actually doing the keystrokes on your own... not through a script.
scripts =/= skill.
sorry if im just repeating whats been said already, im just showing my support to this issue.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1793339:date=Aug 10 2010, 05:20 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Aug 10 2010, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All UW's can do is lock out all client side cvars from the command console and keep them hardcoded and/or verified by the server( allowing config changes only through UI options). If they allow people to delve into the depths of the the engine parameters again we will see the same things happen as they did in NS1/any HL mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you still going on about this? The only truly abusive scripts in NS1 have been banned by tournaments (wigglewalk) or coded out (silentduckrun). Not to mention mp_blockscripts 1 blocks everything. There aren't any good reasons to make it different in NS2. Forcing limited customizability on everyone without there being any real benefit to it is stupid and a sure fire way to annoy players through inconvenience.
<!--quoteo(post=1747663:date=Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM:name=Destrock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destrock @ Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i didnt read all the messages in that topic but i want to say :
NO TO THE NEWBIE SCRIPT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripts are useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1747663:date=Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM:name=Destrock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destrock @ Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its 1 of the reason why i stopped playing ns1. bs fade flying everywhere and never touching the ground a single time in 5 min of playing and lerk flying 10x the normal speed ... its frustrating me so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the place were scripts are the most worthless; <i>detrimental</i> even. I'm glad that you've stopped playing NS, one less <expletive> who doesn't understand air control, blink or leap to badger me ingame.
<!--quoteo(post=1793353:date=Aug 10 2010, 06:15 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 10 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you still going on about this? The only truly abusive scripts in NS1 have been banned by tournaments (wigglewalk) or coded out (silentduckrun). Not to mention mp_blockscripts 1 blocks everything. There aren't any good reasons to make it different in NS2. Forcing limited customizability on everyone without there being any real benefit to it is stupid and a sure fire way to annoy players through inconvenience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ohh thas pretty funny even for you,. Are you really going to try and pretend the HL engine was configed to death by so many 'top' level players ? remeber you werent even in a top ns team while the euro comp scene was alive and kicking you were just admining for clanbase. mp_blockscripts doesnt stop what I was talking about 1 bit it just stops the very simple scripts that were public anyway. the cvars r_cmds that HL users had access to were way too intricate, intrusive and disruptive for users to have access too without allowing serious exploiting, it was a problem since the beta's of CS not just in NS.
Solution to client side scripting: Disallow scripting on the development level. Or make the vanilla server option disallow scripting and if a server allows scripting it is no longer a vanilla server (and is displayed as non-vanilla in the server browser).
Do we want scripts in the game in any situation? What good do they provide? This is an honest question.
<!--quoteo(post=1793402:date=Aug 10 2010, 06:05 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 10 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution to client side scripting: Disallow scripting on the development level. Or make the vanilla server option disallow scripting and if a server allows scripting it is no longer a vanilla server (and is displayed as non-vanilla in the server browser).
Do we want scripts in the game in any situation? What good do they provide? This is an honest question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seems like a reasonable solution. the only people who i would imagine want scripts are the competitive players. i guess it just makes competitive games that much more exciting. for a casual gamer however they bring too much effort to the table to play a simple pick-up-and-play type game.
<!--quoteo(post=1793403:date=Aug 11 2010, 12:08 AM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 11 2010, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->seems like a reasonable solution. the only people who i would imagine want scripts are the competitive players. i guess it just makes competitive games that much more exciting. for a casual gamer however they bring too much effort to the table to play a simple pick-up-and-play type game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point! UWE will have to think long and hard which crowd to please...... I mean, the money is in the casual player market and the venture capital came mostly from the ... well i don't know which crowd substituted the most...., but certainly the ex-NS1-competitive-players are most verbal here in the forums when it comes to oppose new game-play ideas.
Well, my money was on trusting UWE to come up with a NS for the 21 century.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1793383:date=Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ohh thas pretty funny even for you,. Are you really going to try and pretend the HL engine was configed to death by so many 'top' level players ? remeber you werent even in a top ns team while the euro comp scene was alive and kicking you were just admining for clanbase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, you are so out of your depth. Don't try to play that game with me.
<!--quoteo(post=1793383:date=Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mp_blockscripts doesnt stop what I was talking about 1 bit it just stops the very simple scripts that were public anyway. the cvars r_cmds that HL users had access to were way too intricate, intrusive and disruptive for users to have access too without allowing serious exploiting, it was a problem since the beta's of CS not just in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The exploititive cvars and r_cmds you refer to are blocked by the ENSL plugin. Either the NS2 team can do the same to NS2 from the start or volunteers will do it through LUA code or a plugin. This is not an issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1745217:date=Dec 31 2009, 07:57 AM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 31 2009, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion it would be cool to have scripts forbidden too and everything that modify the initial game. It becomes boring when the NS League become the Tweaking league, and if you don't have the last pistol / lerk / Bunnyhop script, you can't be competitive. You can't have fun and become frustrated once you know that you dont have the same "weapons" than the bests, because when someone get for example a pistol script when others peoples don't, it's like having an unfair advantage in the gameplay, so it's the same effect of cheat even if it's "legal" . And when it's happen, i can't get fun anymore. I had somes friends quiting and went back to Counterstrike for this extrem scripting problem on NS (and TFC too).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to say I strongly agree with this. In a game like counterstrike you need scripts to buy weapons, ok. But in NS there really is no need for scripts. I've never used scripts in NS, and always considered modifying your client to get an unfair advantage in battle a form of cheating.
Funny how everything turns into full-blown war about scripts in this forum, if you want your comment taken seriously I recommend finding what it is about first. I'm pretty sure people want the movement and gameplay scripts allowed instead of the scripts themself.
I always thought the way NS1 dealt with cheats is by offering them as part of the game.
For example the motion tracker upgrade is just as good as any wall hack give or take. And the alien team has SC's to do the same.
What other hack is left? Aimbot.
What can NS2 do?
We can add an aimbot to the game that works in conjunction with the motion tracker where maybe you have to line up with the target ring and keep some other button depressed to maintain the lock or something. Perhaps limit it only to players using a exosuit (but for any gun, or maybe just the miniguns).
And before all of you get freaky about what i just said, remember the game AVP2. The smartgun was several hundred rounds of AIMBOT. And what do i keep hearing on these forums that the movie Aliens is a form of inspiration of NS... well that is where the AIMBOT-"Smart-gun" came from. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens demonstrated its capabilities with the M56 SmartGun, a handheld light machine gun. This weapon was connected to the user's Head-Up Display, showing where the weapon is aimed. It was also equipped with a motion-sensitive auto-tracking system, capable of autonomous and accurate targeting of moving objects<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop crying about scripts. They are an important part of the game engine and are NOT cheating. Wasting time on something like this will do no good. Scripts are limited to THE COMMANDS ALREADY AVAILABLE TO THE PLAYER. Blocking scripts won't accomplish anything anyways, software macros are much more powerful. Let us not be like infinity ward and take away all customization from the player. Games that stagnate don't last long. I would rather have a much more colorful community where players can choose what kind of gameplay experience they feel like having. This game is supposed to be highly modable CLIENT and SERVER side.
<!--quoteo(post=1793540:date=Aug 11 2010, 06:58 PM:name=Bloodhouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bloodhouse @ Aug 11 2010, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Goes to find his Aliens Quadrilogy DVD set<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah you only need the trilogy ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1793527:date=Aug 11 2010, 06:15 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 11 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny how everything turns into full-blown war about scripts in this forum, ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, especially because removing the spring from your mousewheel was a thousand times better than any 3 jump or other bunny assisting script :)
On to the whole cheating debate:
Cheats used to be hidden commands, used by developers and testers for testing or sometimes just for giggles. With the advent of multiplayer the use of cheats got restricted and his code-wise usually only allowed in single player (Exeptions like Age of Empires 2 and others do exist)
Hackers: If you wrote a third party program that uses e.g. memory injections to modify the game you might qualify as hacker. If you use such a program written by someone else you don't.
What everyone seems to call cheating nowadays is the use of third party software to give you an advantage in game. Personally I would prefer to call such behavior hooking, but meh. And also lets not forget, that not every software that gives you an advantage should qualify as cheating or hooking. Only when the games memory or important system libraries (usually related to the graphics department) or modified by a third party software only then it should be called a hook [strike]or cheat or hack.[/strike]
Fact: If you want to ban scripts, use of better hardware, use of better peripherals, use of makro-keyboards etc. you might want to think about buying a ps or an xbox. cause you want to remve an important part of PC metagaming and culture. Something that has always set PCs aside from consoles.
Btw: If you are very close to a huge internet backbone, e.g. the decix, you will have a lower ping-average. Even when playing on consoles. What to do? Force the server to artificially even all pings by making sure that everyone has the ping of the player with the highest ping. Just FYI thats entirely possible and you do not even need alot of code to implement it. About 200 lines would be my educated guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1793536:date=Aug 11 2010, 05:47 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 11 2010, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought the way NS1 dealt with cheats is by offering them as part of the game.
For example the motion tracker upgrade is just as good as any wall hack give or take. And the alien team has SC's to do the same.
What other hack is left? Aimbot.
What can NS2 do?
We can add an aimbot to the game that works in conjunction with the motion tracker where maybe you have to line up with the target ring and keep some other button depressed to maintain the lock or something. Perhaps limit it only to players using a exosuit (but for any gun, or maybe just the miniguns).
And before all of you get freaky about what i just said, remember the game AVP2. The smartgun was several hundred rounds of AIMBOT. And what do i keep hearing on these forums that the movie Aliens is a form of inspiration of NS... well that is where the AIMBOT-"Smart-gun" came from.
Yeah , if i follow you : the problem with cheat is that it make a program to help you to play better. What can NS2 do for that ? Disable the player control. Just let a programm taking the full control of players. Let's make it a spectator game, and bots only
@Faskalia : This demonstration is stupid. It's like saying : ###### we can't stop people from killing each other all around the world, so why are we trying to do this in our country ?
Life is not about white and black, it's about grey.
It's not because we can't contro everything that we have to control nothing.
And I still think it's unfair that non-geek people, that dont have time or interest to seek internet for modern script, are disadvantaged in a game they payed the same price as others.
<!--quoteo(post=1793600:date=Aug 11 2010, 07:46 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Aug 11 2010, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah , if i follow you : the problem with cheat is that it make a program to help you to play better. What can NS2 do for that ? Disable the player control. Just let a programm taking the full control of players. Let's make it a spectator game, and bots only<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No the point is, we level the playing field to the point that someone may still be using hacks, but the advantage is lessened because they are sort of already available as part of the game (but not as full strength as a dedicated hack).
For example: the motion-tracker of NS1 updated on a delayed interval. A real wall-hack would be updated in real time.
Therefore an included auto-aim feature in NS2 would not be 100% accurate, and their are many ways we can make it more skill based. If we did it like AVP2 did it (the game, not the movie :P) then a tracked target will have a red circle painted on it. And i think i said this already, but we can make the auto-aim feature dependent on the availability of the motion-tracker upgrade (for balancing reasons). So you would still need to manually aim at a moving target, and if you did your part, then the auto-aim would help you out only a little bit by slightly correcting your aim in the proper direction by a limit of a few inches or so. This is actually a benefit to the user, because it makes it easier to change target priority by nudging your weapon in the direction you want the auto-lock to search in, i.e. it only searches for targets in a cone of fire centered at the weapons point of aim and ignores everything outside of the dev-decided-gameplay-balanced cone-radius.
It would mean you can land a few more hits on a flying/moving target... but it's not as powerful as a real aimbot because you still would need to aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1793603:date=Aug 11 2010, 11:49 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Aug 11 2010, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Faskalia : This demonstration is stupid. It's like saying : ###### we can't stop people from killing each other all around the world, so why are we trying to do this in our country ?
Life is not about white and black, it's about grey.
It's not because we can't contro everything that we have to control nothing.
And I still think it's unfair that non-geek people, that dont have time or interest to seek internet for modern script, are disadvantaged in a game they payed the same price as others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> life is about color!
but this is some dimensions further from this point :/
Stating that scripts don't grant unfair advantages because they only replicate existing player commands is the fifth stupidest argument I've heard this week. I've heard a lot of stupid arguments.
I don't want my competitiveness in NS2 to be proportional to my script writing ability and knowledge of the engine, rather than manual dexterity, knowledge of the powers, and using the interface. NS2 is a bloody video game, not a programming competition. If I wanted to write code, I wouldn't be playing a bloody video game.
I also don't want my competitiveness to be proportional to how up-to-date I am on the latest scripts. NS2 is a bloody video game, not a stock market. If I wanted to keep up-to-date on changing values to increase my advantages I'd be bloody day trading, not playing a video game.
Some people do want scripts. So I say let them have scripts. However, when people are bypassing the interface and going straight to the code to figure out how to write an out-of-game aide for in-game experience, I'd like to be warned because NS2 is multiplayer. When someone is bypassing the interface and changing their avatar's expected power level to gain an advantage which I don't have, I'm at a disadvantage. That's a gigantic sign saying "You must be this tall to play", which is terrible game design. Not allowing everyone to play the game they want is also terrible game design. So let people play with scripts on non-vanilla servers. I can tick an option in the server browser which says "Vanilla only", and not have to learn scripts to play competitively.
Learn from the best, I never used a pistol script, reload script or any script in general, only set my keys to a different position, and I always get a nice score, even in front of non skilled players that use scripts to say that they are skilled.
Skill is equal to be the best you can playing with no help (eg scripts, macros).
Of course scripts are not cheating, that is an old debate already finished and there is no point to go back again on the same topic. A cheat is anything that helps you artificially to aim or find other players in the map (eg aimbot, wallhack, video driver settings changed to see dark places as bright, etc.-).
As long as what you use don't artificially aim or find other players for you it is just fine. But don't say you are skilled if you use macros or scripts.
Comments
<a href="http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gaming/steamed-valve-software-battles-videogame-cheaters" target="_blank">http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electron...eogame-cheaters</a>
I haven't encountered any cheaters in NS yet, I'm actually fine when I get owned, but there is always a time when I can ambush those marines back and wipe out their squad which gives me the proof that they didn't cheat ( I know tgaud's point here would be, if got exists it must be a cheater in NS1 and knew that there was no point in saving the squad so it just died... but I'm not that paranoid yet, maybe that's why I suck at NS1 :P )
I've encountered cheaters in CS though, but most of them are easy to spot and I quit the game lots of years ago, it had a tendancy to attract flamers and kids to it ... which was just annoying.
I think that the VAC thing is okay, it could be done SO MUCH worse, there are games around where the developers didn't even think of the problems cheats would have ... and I guess even if UWE hasn't got that much time and money to spend on that problem, they would at least do better than most of the developers out there.
So I guess this thread should be about:
1) Determin if NS1 failed against cheaters
2) Proof point 1)
3) What can be done to improve this / What can be learned from these mistakes
4) Concrete examples for the anticheats
But right now, or at least the pages 1 to 3 just circeled around if there are cheaters or only skilled players.
So back to topic:
My point on 1) would be that NS1 had Motion Tracking and Parasites and Smell of Fear and Sensory chambers and all that neat stuff that maybe lowered the urge of the common frustrated player to even think of cheating, because when I think of cheats I think of wallhacks and aimbots.
---
1mannARMEE
EDIT: Just read through page 4 and it seems it already got a bit more on topic, so sorry for the rant like style on my post.... I wonder how that happened, are there two certain people no longer arguing :P
No, in theory you can use any aimbot system on any game. This is because you basicly need only a few things, the memory address where the mouseposition is located, and the players. The rest of the aimbot system is quite the same in other games, calculate the distance between your current crosshair position, and the enemy, and changing the x and y.
I actually won't be surprised if cheats were be finished before the game actually came out.
That's a stupid way to spot hackers...
What does NS have in common with other FPS games? Shooting and aiming...
What doesn't have it in common with other FPS games? Alien gameplay...
What i'm trying to say here? Somebody who is good at FPS games can usually translate his aiming skills from one game to another game. If he's good at aiming he will do fine in most FPS games, that doesn't mean that he suddenly automaticly is also good as an alien also as he doesn't have any experience with that kind of gameplay.
Just a small example: I have friend who used to play CS on a competive level, i'm not talking about "some random league competive level" i'm talking about "beeing on a team with real sponsors and LAN tournaments" competive level.
Back than when he still had been active i introduced him to NS and i basicly had a 1 man army as a commander. That guy would rape everything as marine but he refused to play alien because his aiming skills would be no good for playing alien so he ended up sucking playing as alien.
And this whole "fear of cheaters" thing is blown out of proportions... i've been called a hacker often enough in different games to realize that people just see ghosts or can't stand losing most of the time, i got banned serveral times by admins because in their opinion my aim is "jerky". So i have a pretty simple concept regarding cheaters: If he doesn't cheat in a really obvious way (talking about people running around with auto-aim/auto shoot that basicly kill 5 enemies in 1 second and snaps around like crazy) i will just consider him a good player.
Because a smart cheater will just make it look like he is an good player, the moment he starts going past this boundary he is easy to spot as an cheater and easy to ban by an admin. So cheaters have to stay in certain limits and as long as they stay in those limits you can just pretent that he's just a good player.
if this game is meant to appeal to both the hardcore and casual gamer then scripts are not going to help. regardless of what anyone says i see them as a form of cheating. yes, they are available to everyone but they arnt included in the vanilla game therefor they arnt creating a leveled playing field.
i was fully aware of scripts in ns1 but refused to use them. im pretty sure the pistol was never meant to be used as an uzi even though i saw countless people using it like one. bunnyhoping is all well and good if you are actually doing the keystrokes on your own... not through a script.
scripts =/= skill.
sorry if im just repeating whats been said already, im just showing my support to this issue.
Are you still going on about this? The only truly abusive scripts in NS1 have been banned by tournaments (wigglewalk) or coded out (silentduckrun). Not to mention mp_blockscripts 1 blocks everything. There aren't any good reasons to make it different in NS2. Forcing limited customizability on everyone without there being any real benefit to it is stupid and a sure fire way to annoy players through inconvenience.
NO TO THE NEWBIE SCRIPT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripts are useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1747663:date=Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM:name=Destrock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destrock @ Jan 17 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its 1 of the reason why i stopped playing ns1. bs fade flying everywhere and never touching the ground a single time in 5 min of playing and lerk flying 10x the normal speed ... its frustrating me so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the place were scripts are the most worthless; <i>detrimental</i> even. I'm glad that you've stopped playing NS, one less <expletive> who doesn't understand air control, blink or leap to badger me ingame.
ohh thas pretty funny even for you,. Are you really going to try and pretend the HL engine was configed to death by so many 'top' level players ? remeber you werent even in a top ns team while the euro comp scene was alive and kicking you were just admining for clanbase. mp_blockscripts doesnt stop what I was talking about 1 bit it just stops the very simple scripts that were public anyway. the cvars r_cmds that HL users had access to were way too intricate, intrusive and disruptive for users to have access too without allowing serious exploiting, it was a problem since the beta's of CS not just in NS.
Do we want scripts in the game in any situation? What good do they provide? This is an honest question.
Do we want scripts in the game in any situation? What good do they provide? This is an honest question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seems like a reasonable solution. the only people who i would imagine want scripts are the competitive players. i guess it just makes competitive games that much more exciting. for a casual gamer however they bring too much effort to the table to play a simple pick-up-and-play type game.
Good point! UWE will have to think long and hard which crowd to please......
I mean, the money is in the casual player market and the venture capital came mostly from the ... well i don't know which crowd substituted the most...., but certainly the ex-NS1-competitive-players are most verbal here in the forums when it comes to oppose new game-play ideas.
Well, my money was on trusting UWE to come up with a NS for the 21 century.
Haha, you are so out of your depth. Don't try to play that game with me.
<!--quoteo(post=1793383:date=Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Aug 10 2010, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mp_blockscripts doesnt stop what I was talking about 1 bit it just stops the very simple scripts that were public anyway. the cvars r_cmds that HL users had access to were way too intricate, intrusive and disruptive for users to have access too without allowing serious exploiting, it was a problem since the beta's of CS not just in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The exploititive cvars and r_cmds you refer to are blocked by the ENSL plugin. Either the NS2 team can do the same to NS2 from the start or volunteers will do it through LUA code or a plugin. This is not an issue.
It becomes boring when the NS League become the Tweaking league, and if you don't have the last pistol / lerk / Bunnyhop script, you can't be competitive.
You can't have fun and become frustrated once you know that you dont have the same "weapons" than the bests, because when someone get for example a pistol script when others peoples don't, it's like having an unfair advantage in the gameplay, so it's the same effect of cheat even if it's "legal" .
And when it's happen, i can't get fun anymore. I had somes friends quiting and went back to Counterstrike for this extrem scripting problem on NS (and TFC too).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to say I strongly agree with this. In a game like counterstrike you need scripts to buy weapons, ok. But in NS there really is no need for scripts. I've never used scripts in NS, and always considered modifying your client to get an unfair advantage in battle a form of cheating.
So I say, fight the causes, not the symptoms!
For example the motion tracker upgrade is just as good as any wall hack give or take. And the alien team has SC's to do the same.
What other hack is left? Aimbot.
What can NS2 do?
We can add an aimbot to the game that works in conjunction with the motion tracker where maybe you have to line up with the target ring and keep some other button depressed to maintain the lock or something. Perhaps limit it only to players using a exosuit (but for any gun, or maybe just the miniguns).
And before all of you get freaky about what i just said, remember the game AVP2. The smartgun was several hundred rounds of AIMBOT. And what do i keep hearing on these forums that the movie Aliens is a form of inspiration of NS... well that is where the AIMBOT-"Smart-gun" came from.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens demonstrated its capabilities with the M56 SmartGun, a handheld light machine gun. This weapon was connected to the user's Head-Up Display, showing where the weapon is aimed. It was also equipped with a motion-sensitive auto-tracking system, capable of autonomous and accurate targeting of moving objects<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://avp.ugo.com/images/top-weapons/m56-smart-gun-aliens.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You can think of it as the same technology that goes into the sentry turret tracker systems. Which also came from the movie Aliens:
<img src="http://countrypundit.mu.nu/images/sentry05.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
ah you only need the trilogy ;)
True, especially because removing the spring from your mousewheel was a thousand times better than any 3 jump or other bunny assisting script :)
On to the whole cheating debate:
Cheats used to be hidden commands, used by developers and testers for testing or sometimes just for giggles.
With the advent of multiplayer the use of cheats got restricted and his code-wise usually only allowed in single player (Exeptions like Age of Empires 2 and others do exist)
Hackers: If you wrote a third party program that uses e.g. memory injections to modify the game you might qualify as hacker.
If you use such a program written by someone else you don't.
What everyone seems to call cheating nowadays is the use of third party software to give you an advantage in game.
Personally I would prefer to call such behavior hooking, but meh. And also lets not forget, that not every software that gives you an advantage should qualify as cheating or hooking.
Only when the games memory or important system libraries (usually related to the graphics department) or modified by a third party software only then it should be called a hook [strike]or cheat or hack.[/strike]
Fact: If you want to ban scripts, use of better hardware, use of better peripherals, use of makro-keyboards etc. you might want to think about buying a ps or an xbox. cause you want to remve an important part of PC metagaming and culture. Something that has always set PCs aside from consoles.
Btw: If you are very close to a huge internet backbone, e.g. the decix, you will have a lower ping-average. Even when playing on consoles.
What to do? Force the server to artificially even all pings by making sure that everyone has the ping of the player with the highest ping. Just FYI thats entirely possible and you do not even need alot of code to implement it. About 200 lines would be my educated guess.
For example the motion tracker upgrade is just as good as any wall hack give or take. And the alien team has SC's to do the same.
What other hack is left? Aimbot.
What can NS2 do?
We can add an aimbot to the game that works in conjunction with the motion tracker where maybe you have to line up with the target ring and keep some other button depressed to maintain the lock or something. Perhaps limit it only to players using a exosuit (but for any gun, or maybe just the miniguns).
And before all of you get freaky about what i just said, remember the game AVP2. The smartgun was several hundred rounds of AIMBOT. And what do i keep hearing on these forums that the movie Aliens is a form of inspiration of NS... well that is where the AIMBOT-"Smart-gun" came from.
<img src="http://avp.ugo.com/images/top-weapons/m56-smart-gun-aliens.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You can think of it as the same technology that goes into the sentry turret tracker systems. Which also came from the movie Aliens:
<img src="http://countrypundit.mu.nu/images/sentry05.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah , if i follow you : the problem with cheat is that it make a program to help you to play better.
What can NS2 do for that ? Disable the player control. Just let a programm taking the full control of players. Let's make it a spectator game, and bots only
This demonstration is stupid.
It's like saying : ###### we can't stop people from killing each other all around the world, so why are we trying to do this in our country ?
Life is not about white and black, it's about grey.
It's not because we can't contro everything that we have to control nothing.
And I still think it's unfair that non-geek people, that dont have time or interest to seek internet for modern script, are disadvantaged in a game they payed the same price as others.
What can NS2 do for that ? Disable the player control. Just let a programm taking the full control of players. Let's make it a spectator game, and bots only<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No the point is, we level the playing field to the point that someone may still be using hacks, but the advantage is lessened because they are sort of already available as part of the game (but not as full strength as a dedicated hack).
For example: the motion-tracker of NS1 updated on a delayed interval. A real wall-hack would be updated in real time.
Therefore an included auto-aim feature in NS2 would not be 100% accurate, and their are many ways we can make it more skill based. If we did it like AVP2 did it (the game, not the movie :P) then a tracked target will have a red circle painted on it. And i think i said this already, but we can make the auto-aim feature dependent on the availability of the motion-tracker upgrade (for balancing reasons). So you would still need to manually aim at a moving target, and if you did your part, then the auto-aim would help you out only a little bit by slightly correcting your aim in the proper direction by a limit of a few inches or so. This is actually a benefit to the user, because it makes it easier to change target priority by nudging your weapon in the direction you want the auto-lock to search in, i.e. it only searches for targets in a cone of fire centered at the weapons point of aim and ignores everything outside of the dev-decided-gameplay-balanced cone-radius.
It would mean you can land a few more hits on a flying/moving target... but it's not as powerful as a real aimbot because you still would need to aim.
This demonstration is stupid.
It's like saying : ###### we can't stop people from killing each other all around the world, so why are we trying to do this in our country ?
Life is not about white and black, it's about grey.
It's not because we can't contro everything that we have to control nothing.
And I still think it's unfair that non-geek people, that dont have time or interest to seek internet for modern script, are disadvantaged in a game they payed the same price as others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
life is about color!
but this is some dimensions further from this point :/
I don't want my competitiveness in NS2 to be proportional to my script writing ability and knowledge of the engine, rather than manual dexterity, knowledge of the powers, and using the interface. NS2 is a bloody video game, not a programming competition. If I wanted to write code, I wouldn't be playing a bloody video game.
I also don't want my competitiveness to be proportional to how up-to-date I am on the latest scripts. NS2 is a bloody video game, not a stock market. If I wanted to keep up-to-date on changing values to increase my advantages I'd be bloody day trading, not playing a video game.
Some people do want scripts. So I say let them have scripts. However, when people are bypassing the interface and going straight to the code to figure out how to write an out-of-game aide for in-game experience, I'd like to be warned because NS2 is multiplayer. When someone is bypassing the interface and changing their avatar's expected power level to gain an advantage which I don't have, I'm at a disadvantage. That's a gigantic sign saying "You must be this tall to play", which is terrible game design. Not allowing everyone to play the game they want is also terrible game design. So let people play with scripts on non-vanilla servers. I can tick an option in the server browser which says "Vanilla only", and not have to learn scripts to play competitively.
Skill is equal to be the best you can playing with no help (eg scripts, macros).
Of course scripts are not cheating, that is an old debate already finished and there is no point to go back again on the same topic.
A cheat is anything that helps you artificially to aim or find other players in the map (eg aimbot, wallhack, video driver settings changed to see dark places as bright, etc.-).
As long as what you use don't artificially aim or find other players for you it is just fine. But don't say you are skilled if you use macros or scripts.