Flickering lights is a great idea! It gives great use to having special abilities like cloaking, or limited invisibility. Don't forget that each character in the game had their own types of special abilities in NS1. We'll more than likely see a return of these abilities. Seeing lights flicker when a fade uses their fade ability is fine, as it's instant anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1746947:date=Jan 13 2010, 12:57 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 13 2010, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1746947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade got talked about in the dev chat with competitive players. This was like 5 months ago mind you, but the idea for blink being thrown around was a rapid fire short distance teleport on a more hit and run unit than the flying tank it is now.
It sounded good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like that idea
Perhaps a happy compromise on the lights flickering could be making it linked to the teleport. If a Fade teleports, the lights around it would flicker, then wherever it pops back into existence could also have the lights flicker. Aside from being atmospheric, it could give skilled and observant marines a split-second warning of impending danger.
With regards to the Fade itself, I'll be interested most of all in what shape the teleport will take. The new engine may be capable of handling teleport how it originally was implemented. Personally I find that the current implementation is unsatisfying and has pushed NS1 into a different kind of game than the one I originally played, where much of the game is balanced around the skill and ability of the alien side to produce early, skilled Fades.
A possibility might be turning the Fade into more of a ranged combatant. In the early days of NS1, I have many fond memories of epic 2 Hive games, where the two sides fought for hours over scraps of ground. Fades usually hung back, bombarding advancing marines with acid rockets, but more than capable of handing a Marine that got too close. This incarnation of the Fade was one I quite liked; effective at both range and melee, and able to switch between the two easily depending on the situation. The eventual changes to teleport, plus moving Acid Rocket to 3rd Hive, effectively killed this type of Fade gameplay, replacing it with the fast moving assassin-tank that he is now.
My fear is that if the current incarnation of the Fade is repeated in NS2, the gameplay of NS2 may very well be dictated by it's usage, in a similar way to NS1 nowadays.
Flickering lights is one of those things that would "sound cool" in theory, but not in practice. I am pretty amazed there's a 4 page discussion on some vague idea that isn't planned on even being in the game.
I do like the dev's return to the original fade blink. Hopefully this time it'll work much better and there won't be any fades half stuck in walls or ceilings.
<!--quoteo(post=1753590:date=Feb 17 2010, 03:19 AM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 17 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the gameplay of NS2 may very well be dictated by it's usage, in a similar way to NS1 nowadays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> xmenu helps more than slightly...
korvoJoin Date: 2009-11-19Member: 69427Members, Squad Five Blue
Please no flickering lights! Outthere there are people with a special disease, who only can play the game if there is no or not much flickering. A continuously flickering can be fatal for them and could couse death in worst case. This is photosensitive <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy" target="_blank">epilepsy</a>. So please be aware of that!
If you have epilespsy, you likely shouldn't be watching TV, computer monitors and you certainly shouldn't be playing video games. The "may cause seisures" warnings are there for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1753623:date=Feb 17 2010, 06:17 AM:name=korvo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (korvo @ Feb 17 2010, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please no flickering lights! Outthere there are people with ... epilepsy. So please be aware of that!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A flickering light will create no more of a visual disturbance than a firing LMG. Uh.
slayer20Killed a man once.Join Date: 2007-12-13Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1753592:date=Feb 17 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Feb 17 2010, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flickering lights is one of those things that would "sound cool" in theory, but not in practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is that you've made a Fade have the ability to flicker lights when blinking and it didn't turn out well?
Because if you didn't, then how would you know it's not a good theory in practice?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps a happy compromise on the lights flickering could be making it linked to the teleport. If a Fade teleports, the lights around it would flicker, then wherever it pops back into existence could also have the lights flicker. Aside from being atmospheric, it could give skilled and observant marines a split-second warning of impending danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also like the idea of lights flickering when the fade teleports/blinks. The fade creates such a fast ripple of movement he creates a sonic boom of energy of an electromagnetic nature that interferes with technology around it.
<!--quoteo(post=1753619:date=Feb 17 2010, 11:13 PM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stardog @ Feb 17 2010, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->xmenu helps more than slightly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly does it do? Does it alter gameplay so that alien teams aren't critically weakened if they don't have a good Fade player who can go Fade early on and virtually single-handedly keep the Marine team at bay whilst the aliens desperately try to expand? I've never played with it so I can't comment on whether it does this or not (and the almighty Google has returned nothing of value).
It's precisely that kind of gameplay that I don't want to see return in NS2, gameplay where the actions of the team as a whole are virtually irrelevant and it all comes down to one player on each side (Commander and the Fade) either winning or losing the game for their whole team. It is all well and good for a skilled player to have an advantage over an unskilled one, but the game shouldn't be balanced around <i>requiring</i> you to have one of these magical skilled players on your team. Most of the NS games I play nowadays are quite disappointing and tend to be decided in the first few minutes, with a couple of satisfying ones thrown in. Compared to the games I used to play back at release, the norm then was satisfying games with a few disappointing ones.
How about instead of flickering lights (which could be annoying after a while or difficult for mappers, etc)...
the <b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HUD flickers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
If you have ever played FEAR, it would be similar to the effect of the HUD when Alma gets near. It would be a slight flicker along with a faint static sound. For subtlety, the effect could only play when enters and/or leaves an imaginary sphere around the marine. This would be scientifically correct if a Fade had a strong electromagnetic field, as per Faraday's Law of Induction: Electric current is generated by a changing magnetic field. If a Fade had a strong electromagnetic field around him, the change in magnetic flux in all the marine's electronics nearby would spike, creating rogue electric currents, or electromagnetic interference. Regular lights, which work no matter what direction the current flows through them (hence no AC -> DC conversion is needed for your lightbulbs), are less affected by electromagnetic interference.
<!--quoteo(post=1753736:date=Feb 17 2010, 05:30 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 17 2010, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's precisely that kind of gameplay that I don't want to see return in NS2, gameplay where the actions of the team as a whole are virtually irrelevant and it all comes down to one player on each side (Commander and the Fade) either winning or losing the game for their whole team. It is all well and good for a skilled player to have an advantage over an unskilled one, but the game shouldn't be balanced around <i>requiring</i> you to have one of these magical skilled players on your team. Most of the NS games I play nowadays are quite disappointing and tend to be decided in the first few minutes, with a couple of satisfying ones thrown in. Compared to the games I used to play back at release, the norm then was satisfying games with a few disappointing ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much this. Aliens do have other necessary roles other than fade (RT biter, hive babysitting gorge), but if you don't have a fade who can kill, you've pretty much lost the game. This is very BAD. NS1 and NS2 are online multiple games where one team fights another team. Not where one fade fights a team of marines.
I don't see this being as much of a problem in NS2 because aliens are getting a team resource pool; meaning there isn't as much pressure on the single fade to rack up at least 20 kills without dying. If one fade dies, the aliens can afford a new one. In any case, I'd like to see skulks able to go toe to toe with marines in NS2.
Wouldn't the flickering lights be confusing for players?
I mean it seems to be well established that when a RT is under attack, the lights will flicker in the local area to indicate that the RT is being attacked. You know as part of the powergrid system. You can't have the same environmental gameplay effect for two completely different things.
slayer20Killed a man once.Join Date: 2007-12-13Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1753774:date=Feb 18 2010, 02:49 AM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 18 2010, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't the flickering lights be confusing for players?
I mean it seems to be well established that when a RT is under attack, the lights will flicker in the local area to indicate that the RT is being attacked. You know as part of the powergrid system. You can't have the same environmental gameplay effect for two completely different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people will quickly pick up on the fade flickering lights. I'm sure it would also happen in a much smaller area than what an RT does.
no flickering lights! while flickering lights and crap adds to immersion, i dont believe it adds much gameplay/fun wise and is easily open to exploitation and abuse by both mappers and faders.
I can see a whole team go fade and turn certain mapped room into a trance experience for rines. Seriously, depending on how intense and frequent the light flickering is, some people (even without epilepsy) WILL find it either nauseous or downright annoying. Not to mention that the 'immersion' will grow old in the long run. I like the minimalistic focus UWE have going atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1753775:date=Feb 18 2010, 01:54 AM:name=slayer20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ Feb 18 2010, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think people will quickly pick up on the fade flickering lights. I'm sure it would also happen in a much smaller area than what an RT does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what if the lights are already flickering, or the lights are off because of no power?
<!--quoteo(post=1753837:date=Feb 18 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 18 2010, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But what if the lights are already flickering, or the lights are off because of no power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the smart fade is going to use that room to his advantage. It also means that in areas where DI has knocked out the lights, the fade will have an advantage and on the marine's turf, it will have a slight disadvantage.
Good fades would be attempting to move as subtly as possible, while bad fades would be a mobile rave moving at the marines :p
<!--quoteo(post=1753827:date=Feb 18 2010, 10:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 18 2010, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some people (even without epilepsy) WILL find it either nauseous or downright annoying. Not to mention that the 'immersion' will grow old in the long run. I like the minimalistic focus UWE have going atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
slayer20Killed a man once.Join Date: 2007-12-13Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1753837:date=Feb 18 2010, 11:51 AM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 18 2010, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But what if the lights are already flickering, or the lights are off because of no power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say it would cause the already flickering lights to power off for a second or two.
And I don't think the fade using it's blink would cause an all out light show here, which is what I'm thinking a lot of people think.
I'll whip up an example with photoshop which might give people a better understanding.
Going back to those blink ideas, there's a game called Savage 2 where one of the characters you can play throws his sword out to a range of about 30 m in front of him, and you can teleport to it at any point in the throw at will. I mention this because i remember what the original blink was like and how disorientating it could be.
But the way these guys implemented this is quite interesting because the blink is virtually instant yet gives you a sense of travel between your point of origin and destination, and thus far less disorientating.
Also the idea of placing your blink in that way could be a good idea?
korvoJoin Date: 2009-11-19Member: 69427Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1753635:date=Feb 17 2010, 04:27 PM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Feb 17 2010, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have epilespsy, you likely shouldn't be watching TV, computer monitors and you certainly shouldn't be playing video games. The "may cause seisures" warnings are there for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1753637:date=Feb 17 2010, 04:39 PM:name=GDWhite)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GDWhite @ Feb 17 2010, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A flickering light will create no more of a visual disturbance than a firing LMG. Uh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry guys, but both is not true. Well, I don't have, so I can't exactly describe what disturbes and what not. But a friend have, and becomes headage first, if flickering light fills up a bigger area (Claiming especially if there are flashes in a dark room) Well, there are even games with too much flickering for me, because it makes me go insane, but my friend can play that flickering game (4story) all the day - so I really don't understand what kind of flickering makes troubles, and what not.
I hope that my friend doesn't have to leave the room, when I start playing NS2 - and better - can play it too...
And another point is: Flickering sucks. That's the way it is.
Edit: <!--quoteo(post=1754073:date=Feb 19 2010, 09:05 PM:name=slayer20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ Feb 19 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1754073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I don't think the fade using it's blink would cause an all out light show here, which is what I'm thinking a lot of people think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly what I'm worry about - an all out light show.
Comments
It sounded good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like that idea
With regards to the Fade itself, I'll be interested most of all in what shape the teleport will take. The new engine may be capable of handling teleport how it originally was implemented. Personally I find that the current implementation is unsatisfying and has pushed NS1 into a different kind of game than the one I originally played, where much of the game is balanced around the skill and ability of the alien side to produce early, skilled Fades.
A possibility might be turning the Fade into more of a ranged combatant. In the early days of NS1, I have many fond memories of epic 2 Hive games, where the two sides fought for hours over scraps of ground. Fades usually hung back, bombarding advancing marines with acid rockets, but more than capable of handing a Marine that got too close. This incarnation of the Fade was one I quite liked; effective at both range and melee, and able to switch between the two easily depending on the situation. The eventual changes to teleport, plus moving Acid Rocket to 3rd Hive, effectively killed this type of Fade gameplay, replacing it with the fast moving assassin-tank that he is now.
My fear is that if the current incarnation of the Fade is repeated in NS2, the gameplay of NS2 may very well be dictated by it's usage, in a similar way to NS1 nowadays.
I do like the dev's return to the original fade blink. Hopefully this time it'll work much better and there won't be any fades half stuck in walls or ceilings.
xmenu helps more than slightly...
A flickering light will create no more of a visual disturbance than a firing LMG.
Uh.
So what you're saying is that you've made a Fade have the ability to flicker lights when blinking and it didn't turn out well?
Because if you didn't, then how would you know it's not a good theory in practice?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps a happy compromise on the lights flickering could be making it linked to the teleport. If a Fade teleports, the lights around it would flicker, then wherever it pops back into existence could also have the lights flicker. Aside from being atmospheric, it could give skilled and observant marines a split-second warning of impending danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
What exactly does it do? Does it alter gameplay so that alien teams aren't critically weakened if they don't have a good Fade player who can go Fade early on and virtually single-handedly keep the Marine team at bay whilst the aliens desperately try to expand? I've never played with it so I can't comment on whether it does this or not (and the almighty Google has returned nothing of value).
It's precisely that kind of gameplay that I don't want to see return in NS2, gameplay where the actions of the team as a whole are virtually irrelevant and it all comes down to one player on each side (Commander and the Fade) either winning or losing the game for their whole team. It is all well and good for a skilled player to have an advantage over an unskilled one, but the game shouldn't be balanced around <i>requiring</i> you to have one of these magical skilled players on your team. Most of the NS games I play nowadays are quite disappointing and tend to be decided in the first few minutes, with a couple of satisfying ones thrown in. Compared to the games I used to play back at release, the norm then was satisfying games with a few disappointing ones.
the <b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->HUD flickers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
If you have ever played FEAR, it would be similar to the effect of the HUD when Alma gets near. It would be a slight flicker along with a faint static sound. For subtlety, the effect could only play when enters and/or leaves an imaginary sphere around the marine. This would be scientifically correct if a Fade had a strong electromagnetic field, as per Faraday's Law of Induction: Electric current is generated by a changing magnetic field. If a Fade had a strong electromagnetic field around him, the change in magnetic flux in all the marine's electronics nearby would spike, creating rogue electric currents, or electromagnetic interference. Regular lights, which work no matter what direction the current flows through them (hence no AC -> DC conversion is needed for your lightbulbs), are less affected by electromagnetic interference.
Pretty much this. Aliens do have other necessary roles other than fade (RT biter, hive babysitting gorge), but if you don't have a fade who can kill, you've pretty much lost the game. This is very BAD. NS1 and NS2 are online multiple games where one team fights another team. Not where one fade fights a team of marines.
I don't see this being as much of a problem in NS2 because aliens are getting a team resource pool; meaning there isn't as much pressure on the single fade to rack up at least 20 kills without dying. If one fade dies, the aliens can afford a new one. In any case, I'd like to see skulks able to go toe to toe with marines in NS2.
I mean it seems to be well established that when a RT is under attack, the lights will flicker in the local area to indicate that the RT is being attacked. You know as part of the powergrid system. You can't have the same environmental gameplay effect for two completely different things.
I mean it seems to be well established that when a RT is under attack, the lights will flicker in the local area to indicate that the RT is being attacked. You know as part of the powergrid system. You can't have the same environmental gameplay effect for two completely different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people will quickly pick up on the fade flickering lights. I'm sure it would also happen in a much smaller area than what an RT does.
I can see a whole team go fade and turn certain mapped room into a trance experience for rines.
Seriously, depending on how intense and frequent the light flickering is, some people (even without epilepsy) WILL find it either nauseous or downright annoying. Not to mention that the 'immersion' will grow old in the long run. I like the minimalistic focus UWE have going atm.
But what if the lights are already flickering, or the lights are off because of no power?
Then the smart fade is going to use that room to his advantage. It also means that in areas where DI has knocked out the lights, the fade will have an advantage and on the marine's turf, it will have a slight disadvantage.
Good fades would be attempting to move as subtly as possible, while bad fades would be a mobile rave moving at the marines :p
+1
I would say it would cause the already flickering lights to power off for a second or two.
And I don't think the fade using it's blink would cause an all out light show here, which is what I'm thinking a lot of people think.
I'll whip up an example with photoshop which might give people a better understanding.
But the way these guys implemented this is quite interesting because the blink is virtually instant yet gives you a sense of travel between your point of origin and destination, and thus far less disorientating.
Also the idea of placing your blink in that way could be a good idea?
<!--quoteo(post=1753637:date=Feb 17 2010, 04:39 PM:name=GDWhite)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GDWhite @ Feb 17 2010, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1753637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A flickering light will create no more of a visual disturbance than a firing LMG.
Uh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry guys, but both is not true. Well, I don't have, so I can't exactly describe what disturbes and what not. But a friend have, and becomes headage first, if flickering light fills up a bigger area (Claiming especially if there are flashes in a dark room) Well, there are even games with too much flickering for me, because it makes me go insane, but my friend can play that flickering game (4story) all the day - so I really don't understand what kind of flickering makes troubles, and what not.
I hope that my friend doesn't have to leave the room, when I start playing NS2 - and better - can play it too...
And another point is: Flickering sucks. That's the way it is.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1754073:date=Feb 19 2010, 09:05 PM:name=slayer20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ Feb 19 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1754073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I don't think the fade using it's blink would cause an all out light show here, which is what I'm thinking a lot of people think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I'm worry about - an all out light show.