<!--quoteo(post=1752647:date=Feb 12 2010, 09:31 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Feb 12 2010, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My advice for you is to play the game and stop trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Talking to me?
I'm just trying to be informative by stating how I view the game. I'm simply stating the facts. My aim was to have a neutral tone in my post. Please tell me if it comes across otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=1752613:date=Feb 12 2010, 10:30 AM:name=Battle-Bug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Battle-Bug @ Feb 12 2010, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are tons of overpowered units in NS1.
1. Onos can devour marines (including heavies) from a range of 10 feet (mouth doesn't extend out 10 feet). The attack is instantaneous (instead of taking a few seconds like when K got eaten in Men In Black). There's nothing a swallowed marine can do but hope that his teammates will kill the onos. This is ONE HIT KILL. Last, the Onos gains hp/ap from eating the marine.
2. Fades can fly way faster than it should. With adrenaline, they rarely run out of energy. They can metabolize and heal themselves faster without the aid of a gorge or the hive. With focus, they can do huge amounts of damage to kill most marines in two hits or less. All of this combined creates a creature that flies in, hits two or three times, flies out, heals, and comes back. If you get its health low enough, it redeems, allowing the kill to death ratio to go sky high. In combat mode, aliens can have fades in under 2 minutes of gameplay and the marines will be fighting a losing battle unless they already have shotguns and hmgs.
3. Focus allows most aliens to kill most marines in 1-2 hits with a simple upgrade.
4. Heavies are unfair to skulks and lerks. However, there's plenty of drawbacks to heavies.
5. Redemption allows Fades and Onos to go into battle with a high chance of not dying, even on a suicide run. In combat mode, this deprives the marines of well deserved xp.
6. Xenocide is horribly unbalanced. It allows any skulk to leap into combat without giving the marines enough time to kill it. It does enough splash damage to kill unarmored marines and heavily damage others. It also is key in destroying turret farms and other structures with ease. In combat mode, suicide has no drawback, so there are plenty of aliens that use this as their main attack instead of as a last resort.
<b>MY ADVICE IS TO BALANCE EVERYTHING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say that NS1 is already pretty well balanced. 1. Onos devour was designed as a counter to heavy armor.
2. Fades are suppose to be a hit and run alien. Their original blink could make them teleport out of danger. It was changed to the current blink not because it was overpowered but because people kept teleporting into walls.
3. Focus seems to be the alien equivalent of a shotgun (which can kill most aliens in 1 or 2 shots)
4. Heavies are countered by devour.
5. Redemption is suppose to keep high value aliens alive.
6. Skulks are suppose to be expendable units. Also xenocide seems to be a near equivalent to grenade launchers and grenades except marines don't have to die when they used their weapons.
Excluding combat (never supposed to be a balancing priority I guess) and 3rd hive abilities (designed to finish the game), I think the present cloak is the only ability that is absolutely overpowering in certain situations. For some reason it also happens to be the most hated ability in the game.
I guess focus could be considered an extremely powerful ability, but I don't think it still has the same "I win" condition as cloak does without a counter.
<!--quoteo(post=1752662:date=Feb 12 2010, 10:36 AM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Feb 12 2010, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Onos devour was designed as a counter to heavy armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand this, but I believe that this ability has been made too easy to use. The range is unquestionably long (should be a point-blank attack), the attack is instantaneous (you are outside and then you are inside), it is a one hit kill, and there's no defense besides distance. I'm sorry for repeating myself.
<!--quoteo(post=1752668:date=Feb 12 2010, 10:54 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Feb 12 2010, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excluding combat (never supposed to be a balancing priority I guess) and 3rd hive abilities (designed to finish the game), I think the present cloak is the only ability that is absolutely overpowering in certain situations. For some reason it also happens to be the most hated ability in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree about cloak. If memory serves, there's an xmenu ability in combat that overpowers scan area.
Silence is another one. I don't believe that Onos should be able to use it (too heavy). Also, why does it silence a fade's blink or the flapping wings of a lerk? I believe that it should only affect footsteps.
Battle-Bug, you're speaking from the perspective of a combat player, which is drastically different from NS maps and even further away from the type of competitive play that sonder is talking about.
Anyways, as civ pointed out, hard counters can be very unfun (See Scout vs SG). I do like the idea that lifeforms/tech have varying degrees of effectiveness on each other, but I think there should be a limit on how much of an advantage one should be able to gain, or else you end up having battles with foregone conclusions and might as well play Starcraft.
<!--quoteo(post=1752789:date=Feb 12 2010, 05:15 PM:name=xmaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xmaine @ Feb 12 2010, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't forget the shotgun 1 hit kills skulks. They should remove it because its OP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that they require a close range direct hit.
Please do not use /xmenu combat or any other plugins to justify / unjustify your point. They are not part of NS
Point here is to have certain abilities/items/lifeforms to counter opponents side's tech/weapon/etc. Also keep in mind that onos kill is not worth one HA or anything similar. Everything has different value.
Its obvious there're overpowered units in NS1 like I said, and its in good balance. I don't see any useful debate here. However in my opinion there should be a lot more and jetpacks and fades shouldn't be such all-around units as they are today. Onos is not necessary against HA, but its useless against jetpacks, meaning if you got fades and marines have HA's, just getting a bit more of them is enough with lerk umbra'ing. Iny my opinion HA's should be buffed, that fades would be as ineffective against them as onoses are to jetpacks. Now you can do all the necessary stuff with JP to get an edge in the game.
Catpacks are useful but a bit expensive. I think their price should be 2 or 3 per unit making them a viable upgrade. Catpacks can make a huge difference if used very intelligently. "Cloak packs" should be an upgrade, that could make a marine invisible for a while.
The point of me and sonder is that commander does not have that much ability to compensate for lack of individual skill. It doesn't show up that well on public because game on public is inherently very disorganized and a good commander can actually make a huge impact. This is different from competitive games, where pressure is everything and the worse team is likely going to get rolled when they pressure.
<!--quoteo(post=1752668:date=Feb 12 2010, 04:54 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Feb 12 2010, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the present cloak is the only ability that is absolutely overpowering in certain situations. For some reason it also happens to be the most hated ability in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When knife was still around morphz single-handedly killed 3 out of 5 early game baconmen marines in the first 30 seconds of a match while cloaked by one SC in double res on origin, causing them to sell base & dive into lava. It was the finals of something and they just couldn't be ######. It was also the straw that broke the camel's back and they disbanded right after it.
How many other abilities in NS have done the same?:D
On the subject of hard counters: I'm not much of a fan in FPS games because nobody likes to go up against something you have very little chance of killing but I do like the idea of commanders having bigger strategic input over just doing the same upgrade path every game. To some extent I'd say these are required to get away from the NS1 style of very low deviation from the main strat.
The problem with cheese tactics is 5 out of 6 people get pissed off because they want to shoot/bite ###### to death for a good while and only the comm really gets satisfaction from it. If good scouting tactics are implemented and a slightly different pacing to NS1 were to be introduced I can see it working out. If some of the counters were down to marines buying the correct weapon it would also relieve some frustration if you have a bad comm.
Stop talking about combat, it has no relevance to anything good about NS. Also, if I was on a team and the pressure lifeforms were taking adren or redemption I would ragequit the clan due to possible imminent infection with whatever special brand of retardation they have. Doubly so if my team were complaining because adren fades <i>fly too fast</i>.
Comments
Talking to me?
I'm just trying to be informative by stating how I view the game. I'm simply stating the facts. My aim was to have a neutral tone in my post. Please tell me if it comes across otherwise.
1. Onos can devour marines (including heavies) from a range of 10 feet (mouth doesn't extend out 10 feet). The attack is instantaneous (instead of taking a few seconds like when K got eaten in Men In Black). There's nothing a swallowed marine can do but hope that his teammates will kill the onos. This is ONE HIT KILL. Last, the Onos gains hp/ap from eating the marine.
2. Fades can fly way faster than it should. With adrenaline, they rarely run out of energy. They can metabolize and heal themselves faster without the aid of a gorge or the hive. With focus, they can do huge amounts of damage to kill most marines in two hits or less. All of this combined creates a creature that flies in, hits two or three times, flies out, heals, and comes back. If you get its health low enough, it redeems, allowing the kill to death ratio to go sky high. In combat mode, aliens can have fades in under 2 minutes of gameplay and the marines will be fighting a losing battle unless they already have shotguns and hmgs.
3. Focus allows most aliens to kill most marines in 1-2 hits with a simple upgrade.
4. Heavies are unfair to skulks and lerks. However, there's plenty of drawbacks to heavies.
5. Redemption allows Fades and Onos to go into battle with a high chance of not dying, even on a suicide run. In combat mode, this deprives the marines of well deserved xp.
6. Xenocide is horribly unbalanced. It allows any skulk to leap into combat without giving the marines enough time to kill it. It does enough splash damage to kill unarmored marines and heavily damage others. It also is key in destroying turret farms and other structures with ease. In combat mode, suicide has no drawback, so there are plenty of aliens that use this as their main attack instead of as a last resort.
<b>MY ADVICE IS TO BALANCE EVERYTHING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say that NS1 is already pretty well balanced.
1. Onos devour was designed as a counter to heavy armor.
2. Fades are suppose to be a hit and run alien. Their original blink could make them teleport out of danger. It was changed to the current blink not because it was overpowered but because people kept teleporting into walls.
3. Focus seems to be the alien equivalent of a shotgun (which can kill most aliens in 1 or 2 shots)
4. Heavies are countered by devour.
5. Redemption is suppose to keep high value aliens alive.
6. Skulks are suppose to be expendable units. Also xenocide seems to be a near equivalent to grenade launchers and grenades except marines don't have to die when they used their weapons.
I guess focus could be considered an extremely powerful ability, but I don't think it still has the same "I win" condition as cloak does without a counter.
I understand this, but I believe that this ability has been made too easy to use. The range is unquestionably long (should be a point-blank attack), the attack is instantaneous (you are outside and then you are inside), it is a one hit kill, and there's no defense besides distance. I'm sorry for repeating myself.
<!--quoteo(post=1752668:date=Feb 12 2010, 10:54 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Feb 12 2010, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excluding combat (never supposed to be a balancing priority I guess) and 3rd hive abilities (designed to finish the game), I think the present cloak is the only ability that is absolutely overpowering in certain situations. For some reason it also happens to be the most hated ability in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about cloak. If memory serves, there's an xmenu ability in combat that overpowers scan area.
Silence is another one. I don't believe that Onos should be able to use it (too heavy). Also, why does it silence a fade's blink or the flapping wings of a lerk? I believe that it should only affect footsteps.
Anyways, as civ pointed out, hard counters can be very unfun (See Scout vs SG). I do like the idea that lifeforms/tech have varying degrees of effectiveness on each other, but I think there should be a limit on how much of an advantage one should be able to gain, or else you end up having battles with foregone conclusions and might as well play Starcraft.
Keep in mind that they require a close range direct hit.
Point here is to have certain abilities/items/lifeforms to counter opponents side's tech/weapon/etc. Also keep in mind that onos kill is not worth one HA or anything similar. Everything has different value.
Catpacks are useful but a bit expensive. I think their price should be 2 or 3 per unit making them a viable upgrade. Catpacks can make a huge difference if used very intelligently. "Cloak packs" should be an upgrade, that could make a marine invisible for a while.
The point of me and sonder is that commander does not have that much ability to compensate for lack of individual skill. It doesn't show up that well on public because game on public is inherently very disorganized and a good commander can actually make a huge impact. This is different from competitive games, where pressure is everything and the worse team is likely going to get rolled when they pressure.
When knife was still around morphz single-handedly killed 3 out of 5 early game baconmen marines in the first 30 seconds of a match while cloaked by one SC in double res on origin, causing them to sell base & dive into lava. It was the finals of something and they just couldn't be ######. It was also the straw that broke the camel's back and they disbanded right after it.
How many other abilities in NS have done the same?:D
On the subject of hard counters: I'm not much of a fan in FPS games because nobody likes to go up against something you have very little chance of killing but I do like the idea of commanders having bigger strategic input over just doing the same upgrade path every game. To some extent I'd say these are required to get away from the NS1 style of very low deviation from the main strat.
The problem with cheese tactics is 5 out of 6 people get pissed off because they want to shoot/bite ###### to death for a good while and only the comm really gets satisfaction from it.
If good scouting tactics are implemented and a slightly different pacing to NS1 were to be introduced I can see it working out. If some of the counters were down to marines buying the correct weapon it would also relieve some frustration if you have a bad comm.
Stop talking about combat, it has no relevance to anything good about NS. Also, if I was on a team and the pressure lifeforms were taking adren or redemption I would ragequit the clan due to possible imminent infection with whatever special brand of retardation they have. Doubly so if my team were complaining because adren fades <i>fly too fast</i>.