Momentum in NS2
Popenator
Join Date: 2009-08-27 Member: 68617Members
Join Date: 2009-08-27 Member: 68617Members
<div class="IPBDescription">To address recent malconcern</div><b><u>Bunny Hopping</u></b>
While bunny hopping is possible because of momentum's role in a physics engine, it is <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->not<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the result of it. Momentum is probably being calculated just as it should be.
Here, the game developer is at fault. When a developer implements something into their game they are to take into consideration how it modifies the game. Be it ignorance, laziness, or the lack of respect for the game in question and the end user; some developers have taken this rule as something that does not apply to basic physics. Bunny Hopping is the result of the disregard for momentum, while 'only using it sometimes'.
<b><u>Why Should We Care?</u></b>
The effect of downward momentum played a significant role in the evolution of the terrestrial vertebrates (from which the creatures of NS are based upon), due to the fact that it tends to be a significant force their bodies must endure to adapt to their lifestyles. Removing something so profound from their environments would make them seem out of place, making NS2 quite an awkward experience.
<b><u>How would this add anything to the game?</u></b>
This question can only be answered through proving that you have already accepted an arbitrary accompaniment as a complete alternative to simulating natural observations.
Is there anyone who has played The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and can, with all honesty, say that the game's fall damage was a necessity, while its fall recovery effects were superfluous, or detracted from the gameplay? I'm sure that you will agree with me that this is not the case; that, in fact, you find them to work in a pleasantly harmonious manner which, somehow or another, actually managed to strengthen the overall bond between you and the character.
<b><u>You still have yet to make any good argument for something as mindless as a first person shooter</u></b>
Which, to you, would be found to provide a more gratifying Natural Selection 2 experience?:
Without Momentum:
A skulk makes a beeline towards you, sliding whichever the hell random way its face points. It leaps towards you, and you take a step to the left as you spray bullets into damn near everything. The skulk has already ricocheted off of a parallel wall and is latched on to the back of your leg, moving up and down, eating away at your HP. You try to move, but the skulk begins to circle an area between your legs and chest, thus effectively blocking your movement. You die.
With Momentum:
A skulk clambers down the hall, attempting to avoid your bullets. While you've clearly made progress on its HP, you've yet to kill the beast, and it makes a leap towards you. You step aside and watch the skulk fly past you, hit the floor and stumble to make a recovery, all while turning to exit the corridor. Damn claws. You pursue the hurt animal, only to be suddenly charged as you turn after it. The resulting collision knocks you to the floor. Looking around frantically, you are able to discern that two hungry skulks are eating away at your HP. Clever bas... You die.
That's all I've got people. If you're not convinced... either I'm missing something behind game theory, you have information I've yet to comprehend, there exists a view I've yet to account, or you're being religiously stupid.
While bunny hopping is possible because of momentum's role in a physics engine, it is <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->not<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the result of it. Momentum is probably being calculated just as it should be.
Here, the game developer is at fault. When a developer implements something into their game they are to take into consideration how it modifies the game. Be it ignorance, laziness, or the lack of respect for the game in question and the end user; some developers have taken this rule as something that does not apply to basic physics. Bunny Hopping is the result of the disregard for momentum, while 'only using it sometimes'.
<b><u>Why Should We Care?</u></b>
The effect of downward momentum played a significant role in the evolution of the terrestrial vertebrates (from which the creatures of NS are based upon), due to the fact that it tends to be a significant force their bodies must endure to adapt to their lifestyles. Removing something so profound from their environments would make them seem out of place, making NS2 quite an awkward experience.
<b><u>How would this add anything to the game?</u></b>
This question can only be answered through proving that you have already accepted an arbitrary accompaniment as a complete alternative to simulating natural observations.
Is there anyone who has played The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and can, with all honesty, say that the game's fall damage was a necessity, while its fall recovery effects were superfluous, or detracted from the gameplay? I'm sure that you will agree with me that this is not the case; that, in fact, you find them to work in a pleasantly harmonious manner which, somehow or another, actually managed to strengthen the overall bond between you and the character.
<b><u>You still have yet to make any good argument for something as mindless as a first person shooter</u></b>
Which, to you, would be found to provide a more gratifying Natural Selection 2 experience?:
Without Momentum:
A skulk makes a beeline towards you, sliding whichever the hell random way its face points. It leaps towards you, and you take a step to the left as you spray bullets into damn near everything. The skulk has already ricocheted off of a parallel wall and is latched on to the back of your leg, moving up and down, eating away at your HP. You try to move, but the skulk begins to circle an area between your legs and chest, thus effectively blocking your movement. You die.
With Momentum:
A skulk clambers down the hall, attempting to avoid your bullets. While you've clearly made progress on its HP, you've yet to kill the beast, and it makes a leap towards you. You step aside and watch the skulk fly past you, hit the floor and stumble to make a recovery, all while turning to exit the corridor. Damn claws. You pursue the hurt animal, only to be suddenly charged as you turn after it. The resulting collision knocks you to the floor. Looking around frantically, you are able to discern that two hungry skulks are eating away at your HP. Clever bas... You die.
That's all I've got people. If you're not convinced... either I'm missing something behind game theory, you have information I've yet to comprehend, there exists a view I've yet to account, or you're being religiously stupid.
Comments
are you saying you want bunnyhop in ns2?
has it been announced that it won't be included?
very unclear post, I suggest you restructure it, at first you make bunnyhopping sound like an abomination, then you go on to say NS2 would feel awkward without it?
quite the (bias) scenarios you have painted as well, which in response to I will say - momentum sounds great, but it is a difficult mechanic to implement (fully) while still ensuring the quality of the game (i.e. affects game balance).
would you not expect that a creature which is able to walk upside down on a ceiling with ease to utilise the same grip in stopping itself from sliding?
I think NS2 will be great, and UW is sure to listen to their playerbase if players feel certain elements are missing. This may be a discussion best left until the beta is released.
my 2c
Bunny hopping is a crime against the laws of physics (with no comment on gameplay)
Taking consideration of the laws of physics is important.
I would like momentum in ns2 game as I think it would be preferable to less intuitive turn-on-a-penny movement system we are used to in video games.
(We all may find turn-on-a-penny movement systems intuitive now but that's because we've been playing video games all our life and it's a hell of a lot easier to code position than proper momentum).
(The point of my post is just to summarise what I think the OP was trying to say for those that might find his post confusing - it was rather a non-standard format, but hopefully I got the point).
<b>+@MuYeah</b> lol
sv_allowbunnyhop 0/1
The effect when observing other players would perhaps be fun/cool/whatever but the first person experience could be very frustrating.
I agree with this.
Also, though the original poster does make an eloquent point, I think that it's a bit overstated in terms of the current development cycle. Suggestions and ideas are always nice, but "jumping the gun" does come to mind: I'd like to see a playable alpha with some well-iterated basic gameplay before deciding whether or not something like this is merited.
It's a bit silly to plan and develop "gameplay enhancements" when there isn't yet any gameplay to enhance :P
Seriously, enough.
(...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks Delphic, I tried more then once but didn't understand anything ;)
An option like "sv_allowbunnyhop 0/1" sounds like a good idea in every case. I hope UWE makes a lot of options like this easy to set.
and as i recall the perfect solution was the : sv_allowbunnyhop 0/1
Well i say it's okay as long as you can turn it off (server side)
Although the quantum mechanics of momentum were never questioned, nor denied, by the post modern scientist this debate clearly alludes to the finer point's of Sir Issac Newton's third law. Obviously, if a mass is moving linearly at X speed, propelled by the potential energy of unrealized hadrons, then our theorized calculations will be under more harsh scrutiny than if not.
<b><u>How is this relevant?</b></u>
Many believe it's the effects of these quantum mechanics of momentum that have shaped most modern mammal's skeletal structures. To ignore such a profound discovery, made recently within the last fifty years by Dr. Yoming Sesha, could lead to a misconception and misrepresentation of any creature with a spinal cord. A counter argument, one possibly made by someone less intelligent than me, could be that it only takes a minimal amount of common sense to correctly animation and model a basic lifeform with said vertebrates. While this is probably true, if the modeler has his eyes closed, or is rendered blind through some other means, we may see some awkward animations and models in NS2.
<b><u>Okay, you're making a lot of sense and I think you're awesome but what can this add to NS2?</b></u>
To prove my point to you I first must make you subconsciously admit that you're not only aware of my argument but you have already accepted it.
How many of you have played Super Mario Brothers 3 and been frustrated by the lack of stamina effects the main digital avatar, a Italian plumber named Mario, displays throughout the game? I have never seen Mario pant or show a sign of dehydration yet he commonly frequents lava pits, jumps over fire, and throws what we can assume are shells easily weighting 20 pounds plus on a regular basis. Had this been modeled after a concept of reality and confined to the limitations of what a homo-sapien can actually do, we would see a decrease in the dexterity of Mario along with an increase in sciatic nerve trauma. But we do not, do we? Therefor you already agree with me.
<b><u>All you've done is waste my time and now I feel like investing 10 minutes of my life to mock you whilst pointing out how stupid you've made yourself look</b></u>
Although I would prefer you didn't, I can understand and sympathize with your point. Please consider this before you do anything with haste:
Without momentum:
A skulk charges you, you dodge. Light refracts off your face as vivid memories of your wife flash before your eyes. Julietta, how I miss you and our children. The skulk runs up the left wall, you shoot to the right damaging him slightly. A tear rolls down your face. "Daddy, why can't you play catch with me?" says your son as you board your interstellar transport four months ago. "Daddy has to go save the galaxy" you firmly reply as you remove his tiny hands from your legs. The skulk chuckles, a single tear drips from your left eye. The skulk eats your face. You die.
With momentum:
A skulk barrels down the hallway at you. You dodge. The skulk slams into the wall behind you, possibly causing a stressline fracture within the Xenoskull of the beast. A damage over time effect of 1.25hp per second kicks on. The skulk is in trouble. He is panicking, looking for an escape. You give chase. Wait? What's that sound. A green goo drops ontop of your head from the ceiling. You touch it with your hand, your hand becomes cold and damp. A lerk flies by. The skulk kills you.
That's all I've got people. If you don't understand my point after that then you're some kind of a moron.
1) you haven't touched on, nor even know what game theory is (google Nash Equilibrium)
2) true momentum can be implemented in games as soon as they ship with a head-to-toe body suit in which I can properly counter-act said momentum with a multitude of subtle readjustments as I would in real life.
3) sv_bunnyhop is not the solution, you can't just server-toggle a core gameplay mechanic, it's like suggesting "sv_celerity" - it's absurd. Either it's in or it's not.
Obviously, it's either in or out for the "official" gamemode. However, it's already pretty clear that people are going to be hacking up/modifying things to their liking. I see nothing wrong with having servers like "NS2 CORE [TexasCGamers] NOHOP NOBOT 24/7" or whatever. NS2 being easily moddable means that there really isn't any such thing as a "core gameplay mechanic," just an evolution of what the community prefers.
Also - I'd prefer the scenario without inertia any day. I understand the point the OP is making but I am disagreeing strongly. Does that make me religiously stupid? I guess so, if we're going by what the OP is saying.
Although the quantum mechanics of momentum were never questioned, nor denied, by the post modern scientist this debate clearly alludes to the finer point's of Sir Issac Newton's third law. Obviously, if a mass is moving linearly at X speed, propelled by the potential energy of unrealized hadrons, then our theorized calculations will be under more harsh scrutiny than if not.
<b><u>How is this relevant?</b></u>
Many believe it's the effects of these quantum mechanics of momentum that have shaped most modern mammal's skeletal structures. To ignore such a profound discovery, made recently within the last fifty years by Dr. Yoming Sesha, could lead to a misconception and misrepresentation of any creature with a spinal cord. A counter argument, one possibly made by someone less intelligent than me, could be that it only takes a minimal amount of common sense to correctly animation and model a basic lifeform with said vertebrates. While this is probably true, if the modeler has his eyes closed, or is rendered blind through some other means, we may see some awkward animations and models in NS2.
<b><u>Okay, you're making a lot of sense and I think you're awesome but what can this add to NS2?</b></u>
To prove my point to you I first must make you subconsciously admit that you're not only aware of my argument but you have already accepted it.
How many of you have played Super Mario Brothers 3 and been frustrated by the lack of stamina effects the main digital avatar, a Italian plumber named Mario, displays throughout the game? I have never seen Mario pant or show a sign of dehydration yet he commonly frequents lava pits, jumps over fire, and throws what we can assume are shells easily weighting 20 pounds plus on a regular basis. Had this been modeled after a concept of reality and confined to the limitations of what a homo-sapien can actually do, we would see a decrease in the dexterity of Mario along with an increase in sciatic nerve trauma. But we do not, do we? Therefor you already agree with me.
<b><u>All you've done is waste my time and now I feel like investing 10 minutes of my life to mock you whilst pointing out how stupid you've made yourself look</b></u>
Although I would prefer you didn't, I can understand and sympathize with your point. Please consider this before you do anything with haste:
Without momentum:
A skulk charges you, you dodge. Light refracts off your face as vivid memories of your wife flash before your eyes. Julietta, how I miss you and our children. The skulk runs up the left wall, you shoot to the right damaging him slightly. A tear rolls down your face. "Daddy, why can't you play catch with me?" says your son as you board your interstellar transport four months ago. "Daddy has to go save the galaxy" you firmly reply as you remove his tiny hands from your legs. The skulk chuckles, a single tear drips from your left eye. The skulk eats your face. You die.
With momentum:
A skulk barrels down the hallway at you. You dodge. The skulk slams into the wall behind you, possibly causing a stressline fracture within the Xenoskull of the beast. A damage over time effect of 1.25hp per second kicks on. The skulk is in trouble. He is panicking, looking for an escape. You give chase. Wait? What's that sound. A green goo drops ontop of your head from the ceiling. You touch it with your hand, your hand becomes cold and damp. A lerk flies by. The skulk kills you.
That's all I've got people. If you don't understand my point after that then you're some kind of a moron.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Internets to you, good fellow.
Fun trumps realism. Always. ALWAYS. You think that realism is a part of fun. Alright, go buy Flight Simulator 3000 and go to town. Perhaps you don't value realism to such an extreme, just that you want physics engines to be somewhat more realistic. Well, if we take the extreme approach and make the physics engine as realistic as possible, the game would be a bit less fun and more like real life. That means getting rid of non existent rotational inertia (players can turn instantly), aerial direction influence (players can affect where they land with input after they leave the ground), and physics related damage (flying into something hurts you). Those things make NS1 unreal. This is a good thing in my opinion. NS1 isn't supposed to be about realistic combat. Realistic combat with "momentum" would greatly reduce "twitch" combat and would increase the role of broader strategic decisions (such as class, weapons, upgrades, positioning, unit ratios). NS1 and NS2 are FPS / RTS hybrids. So the outcome of a battle has to take player skill into account, not just what decisions their commander has made (unlike a pure RTS). For that reason, "twitch" skill must be a part of the game and an integral part because the vast majority of players aren't commanders.
Bunnyhopping can be removed without making NS2 a combat simulator and physics-ing the crap out of it. But NS1 is a lot more fun because it has an unrealistic physics engine.
I agree with this. Developers should never make something a client option solely because they can't make up their minds. The more uniform the game experience (this applies to classic mode only) the better. I don't want to join a server and spend five minutes figuring out that this server has bunnyhop, lerk bite, /giveres, devour, lifeforms bound to hives, extra-bouncy grenades, and buildings that detonate on recycle every time I play.
Such variables are extremely flammable. See how blockscripts divided the community. Giving official aknowledgement for such features isn't a good plan in my opinion. The devs have to make one decision and stick to it.
As a competetive player I'd much rather have a possibility of transition between the organised and public gameplay. The difference is already pretty dramatic, but there's no need to force people to learn new movement physics when they want to try playing the game in a little different way. I'm more than willing to let a few competetive play goodies go to have a somewhat healthy scene where public and competetive communities have something in common and both scenes manage to support each other's existence.
I see something wrong with that - I see NS2's modability as its pending doom. If the devs and community are not careful in which mods they sanction and simply allow unrestricted growth, the "to each his own" philosophy is going to result in a lot of eaches, and a lot of owns. The community will become fragmented, with shards in "classic NS", "vanilla NS2", "combat", and "Jimmy-Bob's Super-Fun Gorge Slideout".
Players are going to literally spend hours combing the server browser bombarded with a milllion different scenarios running on each server only to find the one the combination they're looking for either doesn't exist or has but a handful of people playing.
This has been brought up before and I believe it is the #1 issue facing NS2 - before it's even released. UWE need to come up with a smart strategy to deal with a potential overgrowth of mods or we'll soon be looking back at the NS1 xmenu-modded-extralevels-lerklift servers as the "good ol' days".
I don't think that'll make anyone happy. 'Hoppers will be annoyed that they can't use their skill fully, non-hoppers will be annoyed that it's still in.
This right here made my day! So damn Funny.
Not necessarily. UWE stated that the server browser will have search filters for, at least, Vanilla NS2, ensuring that that, at least, survives.
A search function for any particular mod could be done as well. Being able to search for any mod you currently have, like "Natural Selection Classic Ver. 2102 With Gorge Slide" would alleviate some concern as well, except for when your favorite server switches to Ver. 2103.
I don't think that gimmicks will last, though major mods and of course the Vanilla NS2 will. I occasionally play surf maps in TF2, and sometimes surf servers will keep me entertained for a whole week, but at some point I always go back to standard maps.
<b><u>Sir, are you implying that you're on drugs</b></u>
The use of illicit and illegal drugs may have impacted my thought process throughout this journey of dialogues via online message boards.
oh, and by the way, one of the biggest 'issues' I have with NS2 is that they're promoting it as moddable.
Players are going to literally spend hours combing the server browser bombarded with a milllion different scenarios running on each server only to find the one the combination they're looking for either doesn't exist or has but a handful of people playing.
This has been brought up before and I believe it is the #1 issue facing NS2 - before it's even released. UWE need to come up with a smart strategy to deal with a potential overgrowth of mods or we'll soon be looking back at the NS1 xmenu-modded-extralevels-lerklift servers as the "good ol' days".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That could happen. I doubt it, though -- seems more likely that the popular game qualities will "filter to the surface" and be more widely represented. They'll be naturally selected, if you will. Ho ho ho.
But in all seriousness, community fragmentation is less a function of moddability and more of... well, community size. If the game doesn't have a large userbase, then it will become dispersed, if not among different gameplay modes, then among different social niches (casual server, pro server, etc). If a large enough community exists, the popular gamemodes will always be easy to find a solid server for. "Jimmy-Bob's Super-Fun Gorge Slideout" won't have enough of a following in a big community to be worth maintaining, so it will quickly be eclipsed by the larger volume of more established and serious gameplay types. If the community isn't large enough, then the outliers become more apparent, which could be a problem...
That said, the solidness of the core gameplay will determine the size of the community and how fast it grows. The core gameplay needs to be established and solid, distinct from modded play, so that the community can form and grow. The moddability needs to be nurtured and supported so that once the community is established, it can persist without dying away from natural lack of interest. Moddability isn't a "danger," it's a necessary component in the long-term success of the game.
sv_allowbunnyhop 0/1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->...and while you're at it
sv_allow_taser 0/1
sv_allow_dynamic_infestation 0/1
sv_allow_powergrid_mode 0/1
sv_allow_classic_NS1 0/1
sv_allow_devour 0/1
sv_allow_lerkspikes 0/1
That will make everyone happy!
<!--quoteo(post=1752252:date=Feb 10 2010, 09:12 AM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tankefugl @ Feb 10 2010, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>It is all a question of user interface responsiveness</b>. Momentum, and it's closely related cousin inertia, adds response time to the user interface/control system. Is that really desirable? In a world where FPS games in general do not use inertia (of anyone know of any apart from the regular vehicle movement, <b>let me know</b>) for movement adding it to <b>NS2 would make the controls feel sluggish and unresponsive.</b>
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Red Orchestra has momentum for infantry players and I really like what it does to gameplay. This game is super fun and very realistic(realistic Ironsighs, no reticle, bullet drop over distance, no bullet count in HUD, gun getting shot of your hands, leg damage on falls, etc) of course not all off these would work well in NS2.
Momentum though, I think has a good chance of doing NS2 gameplay some good. Gives a chance to really make the skulk feel really quick and nimble vs the other creatures (incl. humans) and Onos can feel pretty large and powerful.
Also gives you a chance to add some mechanic where the skulk can speed up by leaping again just as he touches the ground.
Gorge slide could also work well better with momentum. If the gorge is sliding away from your and you shoot him then you will damage him but the flip side is that you also give him some bit of extra speed with each bullets.
With momentum an Onos crossing path with a skulk would not be blocked but the skulk would take a bit of a ride on the Onos' noselike region.
I think the key to adding momentum physics to the game is to make it feel natural and have it's effect be very subtle. Also momentum is not the ONLY way to implement the point I mentioned. However it would make for an global system where all of this effect on gameplay would be a given.